JiggamanGh:
Nigerian women and white dicks. Smh

Onila is such a clown

EnlightenedSoul:


I realize that...it does vary from person to person within virginity, but it's usually a whole different ball game after it's been 'lost', so to speak, and that's my point and what I was comparing (pre to post). The thoughts you described are nothing out of the ordinary. In fact, they're pretty normal. Lust isn't some evil in need of eradication. It's healthy, and a lot of times it's all what you need, lol. I get the sense that you're somewhat ashamed of your thoughts, but you really shouldn't be.

And you've never loved someone? I wonder how you survived years in Cali where a lot of the population is young, fit, and image-obsessed, and where the weather often calls for short dresses, or a nice pair of shorts, and your legs practically sing out to be free, lol?

I don't see that as a problem, tho. That sex is everywhere isn't some Western movie conspiracy, because sex really is everywhere. Meanwhile, the Kannywood you mention is probably Islam-influenced and prefers to portray some alternate universe wherein sex and lust are non-existent, but which, in the same vein, I can understand is probably a whole lot easier to digest for people who're trying to abstain.

[size=1pt]Honestly, tho, dare I say it, Fula, you really sound like need to pushed off that precipice STAT, if you don't mind me saying. And I think you're idealizing me a great deal. I mean, your last sentence there...is just too much, and I can't accept it, because it ISN'T true. I have my own set of flaws, I promise you. [/size]

You are right without a doubt darling. It is more than likely different once you have lost it.

In regards to my lust, unfortunately, I'm not ashamed of it. I actually like it and feel like my mind is getting kinkier for no reason. Lol I don't know why that's the case. I don't want to go into much detail about it though lol.

In regards to ever loving someone, well yeah, though I don't think that person felt the same way. I don't think I'll ever know. In California, I kind of kept to myself and focused on my studies. When I was in America, I was there to study and not fool around. Though I did see a lot of beautiful women, I did not really allow myself to show interest.

I actually like the fact that Nigerians overall are very sexually conservative. However, it makes people sometimes do things that they shouldn't do before marriage. I agree sex is real, but one must think about the repercussions if they partake in it. It may be on their mind everyday, and one may unexpectedly get his lady friend pregnant lol that wouldn't be good, especially to the unprepared.

I think that you are a fantastic person personally despite your constant selling yourself short. I like that about you. You are humble and kind. Those are very great qualities to have. Everyone has shortcomings, but you are quite a perfectionist like me and you try to do whatever you can to overcome them. That's just amazing. Please don't sell yourself short, and see yourself as the way you should, one of the best women in the world.

JiggamanGh:
Nigerian women and white dicks. Smh

Ghanaian women I hear are going after white guys even more than Nigerian women. I think African women are just brainwashed by whiteness.

EnlightenedSoul:


I realize that...it does vary from person to person within virginity, but it's usually a whole different ball game after it's been 'lost', so to speak, and that's my point and what I was comparing (pre to post). The thoughts you described are nothing out of the ordinary. In fact, they're pretty normal. Lust isn't some evil in need of eradication. It's healthy, and a lot of times it's all what you need, lol. I get the sense that you're somewhat ashamed of your thoughts, but you really shouldn't be.

And you've never loved someone? I wonder how you survived years in Cali where a lot of the population is young, fit, and image-obsessed, and where the weather often calls for short dresses, or a nice pair of shorts, and your legs practically sing out to be free, lol?

I don't see that as a problem, tho. That sex is everywhere isn't some Western movie conspiracy, because sex really is everywhere. Meanwhile, the Kannywood you mention is probably Islam-influenced and prefers to portray some alternate universe wherein sex and lust are non-existent, but which, in the same vein, I can understand is probably a whole lot easier to digest for people who're trying to abstain.

[size=1pt]Honestly, tho, dare I say it, Fula, you really sound like need to pushed off that precipice STAT, if you don't mind me saying. And I think you're idealizing me a great deal. I mean, your last sentence there...is just too much, and I can't accept it, because it ISN'T true. I have my own set of flaws, I promise you. [/size]

What a humble soul u are. I agree with Fulaman's second to the last sentence and agree with ur profile name; U are indeed an enlightened soul.

Fulaman198:


Ghanaian women I hear are going after white guys even more than Nigerian women. I think African women are just brainwashed by whiteness.

yes there are obviously Ghanaian girls with white men but i still believe that you will find more Nigerian girls with white men then Ghanaian girls. I have noticed and this is based on my experiences that if a Nigerian girl does not marry a Nigerian guy, she is more likely to date a white guy then a fellow African guy. While if a Ghanaian girl does not marry a Ghanaian guy. She will most likely date a fellow black(Nigerian,Carribean) then a white. I am not talking about those who want white men simply to go abroad etc. You will unfortunately find some women and men like that in every country.

My dear do whatever will make you happy

V0lv0:
yes there are obviously Ghanaian girls with white men but i still believe that you will find more Nigerian girls with white men then Ghanaian girls. I have noticed and this is based on my experiences that if a Nigerian girl does not marry a Nigerian guy, she is more likely to date a white guy then a fellow African guy. While if a Ghanaian girl does not marry a Ghanaian guy. She will most likely date a fellow black(Nigerian,Carribean) then a white. I am not talking about those who want white men simply to go abroad etc. You will unfortunately find some women and men like that in every country.

Yah I'm no expert on this subject matter lol. I know that some Nigerian girls are heavily brainwashed by Western media and for some odd reason would marry a white person over another African person. It's a bit of a disgrace and it says a lot about Nigerian culture that some of our cultures have a major inferiority complex.

Fulaman198:


Yah I'm no expert on this subject matter lol. I know that some Nigerian girls are heavily brainwashed by Western media and for some odd reason would marry a white person over another African person. It's a bit of a disgrace and it says a lot about Nigerian culture that some of our cultures have a major inferiority complex.

Why do you take it a slight against not only yourself, apparently, but on the behalf of an entire continent of men that an African woman date others? And why do you believe that an individual must be "brainwashed" in order to do so, or have some sort of complex, and thus be some sort of "disgrace" in doing so?

EnlightenedSoul:


Why do you take it a slight against not only yourself, apparently, but on the behalf of an entire continent of men that an African woman date others? And why do you believe that an individual must be "brainwashed" in order to do so, or have some sort of complex, and thus be some sort of "disgrace" in doing so?

I'll summarise what I said miss. It's not really every Nigerian culture that partakes in this sort of thing, Fulanis and Hausa people for example do not really marry whites so to say. I guess one could say Fulani and Hausa are more traditional. I believe Somalis are the same way. They don't really marry out much so to say.

In essence, the Western world has impacted the rest of the world more than others are willing to admit. Many women in Nigeria truly believe that White men are fiscally endowed (meaning that they have a lot of money). Thus, they pursue them.

The reason I say that they are brainwashed is because a Nigerian woman would much rather marry a white man over say a black American man because many throughly believe that white American men are "Angels and Heroes" whereas black American men are demons and thugs. That is what is propagated to Nigeria via the news and Western media. Some of it is slightly true and some of it really is false (like a Boolean expression).

Many Nigerian women believe everything they hear and see from the media. They are easily manipulated by the media. In a way, it's sort of a bandwagon effect. Allow me to extrapolate on what I'm saying in an analogy.

Many American reviewers tout the iPhone as the best smartphone in the world without taking the time to do an unbiased review of many other high-end Android devices. Because many people in America (most certainly not the U.K.) tout the iPhone as the best phone, many people jump on the iPhone bandwagon.

It's the same thing with white guys as opposed to every other kind of guy (be it other Africans, Asians, AraboAfricans, etc. etc.). White men are touted as men with the highest fiscal potential, often portrayed in films as the saviour (where in some of these films they make Africans look incompetent and a white guy has to come and save them, an example is that Sierra Leonean based film blood diamonds). White guys portray themselves as some kind of pseudo God, which it in itself is very false. However, many (not ALL mademoiselle) believe it and follow it.

Many people are copycats and sheep in this world. If one person says something, others typically follow and can't form their own opinion. Another example is here in Nigeria for instance, many men would choose a lighter complexioned beauty for a partner over a darker complexioned beauty for a partner. Lighter complexioned is often seen as "better" even though it is not. Personally for me, I love lighter complexioned African women just as much as Darker complexioned African women. It's possible for both complexions to be equally beautiful (e.g. caramel vs. dark chocolate). But others may disagree and say Light skin is better.

I don't know if I explained that well enough, but I could write an entire book of how most of the human species are brainwashed in their every day decision making.

Fulaman198:

You are right without a doubt darling. It is more than likely different once you have lost it.
In regards to my lust, unfortunately, I'm not ashamed of it. I actually like it and feel like my mind is getting kinkier for no reason. Lol I don't know why that's the case. I don't want to go into much detail about it though lol.
In regards to ever loving someone, well yeah, though I don't think that person felt the same way. I don't think I'll ever know. In California, I kind of kept to myself and focused on my studies. When I was in America, I was there to study and not fool around. Though I did see a lot of beautiful women, I did not really allow myself to show interest.
I actually like the fact that Nigerians overall are very sexually conservative. However, it makes people sometimes do things that they shouldn't do before marriage. I agree sex is real, but one must think about the repercussions if they partake in it. It may be on their mind everyday, and one may unexpectedly get his lady friend pregnant lol that wouldn't be good, especially to the unprepared.
I think that you are a fantastic person personally despite your constant selling yourself short. I like that about you. You are humble and kind. Those are very great qualities to have. Everyone has shortcomings, but you are quite a perfectionist like me and you try to do whatever you can to overcome them. That's just amazing. Please don't sell yourself short, and see yourself as the way you should, one of the best women in the world.

Baaballiyo:


What a humble soul u are. I agree with Fulaman's second to the last sentence and agree with ur profile name; U are indeed an enlightened soul.

Please, but this is a misunderstanding I feel obliged to right...

I'm not selling myself short - I never do. I'm not being humble. I'm being another six letter word that coincidentally also begins with the letter H, but is far weightier (in my own personal reckoning), and more important than this fascinating fixation on humility; I'm being honest. I can guarantee you, that if I truly believed myself to be perfect (which no true perfectionist really ever does 100%), I'd have no qualms whatsoever accepting your accolades, and perhaps even going so far as claiming it as an unadulterated self-truth all my own, lol. It's in the spirit of honesty that I've now revealed to you my near absolute deficit in humility as it's something I def struggle with on the daily, and if anything, it's honesty - honesty to others, and honesty to self - that most helps keep me in check.

I gotta say, tho...I never thought I'd actually have to argue against my own perceived perfection

EnlightenedSoul:


Please, but this is a misunderstanding I feel obliged to right...

I'm not selling myself short - I never do. I'm not being humble. I'm being another six letter word that coincidentally also begins with the letter H, but is far weightier (in my own personal reckoning), and more important than this fascinating fixation on humility; I'm being honest. I can guarantee you, that if I truly believed myself to be perfect (which no true perfectionist really ever does 100%), I'd have no qualms whatsoever accepting your accolades, and perhaps even going so far as claiming it as an unadulterated self-truth all my own, lol. It's in the spirit of honesty that I've now revealed to you my near absolute deficit in humility as it's something I def struggle with on the daily, and if anything, it's honesty - honesty to others, and honesty to self - that most helps keep me in check.

I gotta say, tho...I never thought I'd actually have to argue against my own perceived perfection

LOL, we know that there is no such thing as a perfect human being. However, what differentiates the humans that excel from those that do not is the will to forever try to overachieve.

You my dear in all departments fit that description. Now, I'm not calling you perfect as mistakes are made from time to time by everyone. You have a great character, demeanor, aura, and charisma about you. Let's not make any mistake in regards to that, because you do.

I'm comparing you to most ladies that I have come across around the world, whether it is during work, school, etc. etc. I think you are an excellent person.

Fulaman198:


LOL, we know that there is no such thing as a perfect human being. However, what differentiates the humans that excel from those that do not is the will to forever try to overachieve.

You my dear in all departments fit that description. Now, I'm not calling you perfect as mistakes are made from time to time by everyone. You have a great character, demeanor, aura, and charisma about you. Let's not make any mistake in regards to that, because you do.

I'm comparing you to most ladies that I have come across around the world, whether it is during work, school, etc. etc. I think you are an excellent person.

Thanks, Fula, I appreciate it. Tho, part of me still thinks you're, perhaps, idealizing a bit.

Now, you have me wondering what sort of wrongs most ladies you've encountered across the world have done you...

P.S. I'm still out. I'll be sure to give your other post a proper response tomorrow.

Fulaman198:


I'll summarise what I said miss. It's not really every Nigerian culture that partakes in this sort of thing, Fulanis and Hausa people for example do not really marry whites so to say. I guess one could say Fulani and Hausa are more traditional. I believe Somalis are the same way. They don't really marry out much so to say.

In essence, the Western world has impacted the rest of the world more than others are willing to admit. Many women in Nigeria truly believe that White men are fiscally endowed (meaning that they have a lot of money). Thus, they pursue them.

The reason I say that they are brainwashed is because a Nigerian woman would much rather marry a white man over say a black American man because many throughly believe that white American men are "Angels and Heroes" whereas black American men are demons and thugs. That is what is propagated to Nigeria via the news and Western media. Some of it is slightly true and some of it really is false (like a Boolean expression).

Many Nigerian women believe everything they hear and see from the media. They are easily manipulated by the media. In a way, it's sort of a bandwagon effect. Allow me to extrapolate on what I'm saying in an analogy.

Many American reviewers tout the iPhone as the best smartphone in the world without taking the time to do an unbiased review of many other high-end Android devices. Because many people in America (most certainly not the U.K.) tout the iPhone as the best phone, many people jump on the iPhone bandwagon.

It's the same thing with white guys as opposed to every other kind of guy (be it other Africans, Asians, AraboAfricans, etc. etc.). White men are touted as men with the highest fiscal potential, often portrayed in films as the saviour (where in some of these films they make Africans look incompetent and a white guy has to come and save them, an example is that Sierra Leonean based film blood diamonds). White guys portray themselves as some kind of pseudo God, which it in itself is very false. However, many (not ALL mademoiselle) believe it and follow it.

Many people are copycats and sheep in this world. If one person says something, others typically follow and can't form their own opinion. Another example is here in Nigeria for instance, many men would choose a lighter complexioned beauty for a partner over a darker complexioned beauty for a partner. Lighter complexioned is often seen as "better" even though it is not. Personally for me, I love lighter complexioned African women just as much as Darker complexioned African women. It's possible for both complexions to be equally beautiful (e.g. caramel vs. dark chocolate). But others may disagree and say Light skin is better.

I don't know if I explained that well enough, but I could write an entire book of how most of the human species are brainwashed in their every day decision making.

Well, Fulanis and Hausas are hardly unicorns in that aspect, Fula. The truth of the matter is, cultures all across the globe, Somalis/Hausas/Fulanis/whatever will marry from their own the vast majority of the time, but that plenty of folks, most especially those who reside outside their root countries, increasingly tend to marry from outside their respective cultures as well. This is a matter of access more than anything else as you'll find that the likelihood an immigrant date and marry expressly from their own culture steadily and naturally decreases with their increased exposure to the mesh of other cultures and races within their host country (usually a Western country), and most especially as the generations wane on.

In addressing this trend, the idea that women, specifically, of African roots, specifically, must date/marry AA and African men only for the fact that they're "other than" (White), or otherwise be accused of being thoroughly brainwashed and hypnotized by Western media - as must be, in the same vein, fans of the iPhone, and men who prefer women with a lighter complexion - is certainly intriguing on a whole other level from any argument I've ever heard for 'racial' purity thus far, so a tip of the hat to you.

Curiously, you go on to focus on African women in Africa and charge them of being swept away by Western media antics, which in itself I have no way of ascertaining (and were I to utilize NL, the largest African forum, as a base of observation, it isn't so much an environment where women praise and tout foreign white men as supreme, but the exact opposite, one wherein native male users are often seen loudly and systematically praising foreign women they've never seen IRL above their native Nigerian women), but completely ignore the actual subjects of the conversation; women born/raised/living in Western climes who're dating white men, and who's utter reliance on a so-called foreign brainwashing mechanism cannot be held suspect. Any woman who's actually dated white men will tell you the average white man mostly differs from the average African, or African-American man, culturally.

And based purely on that, I, for one, would 1000%, hands-down, marry a White guy over an African-American guy. You cannot deign to tell me this is due to some perceived fiscal worth, or because I've been brainwashed by a media-machine, due to the savior plot in Blood Diamonds and the antics of Hollywood. I actually live here. I've had experiences and I've made my own observations, and this unsavory, thuggish image you squarely accuse Western news of propagating, as if neutral news accounts are fictitious, is one that AAs spread themselves through their own music and otherwise, and actually live by, in droves. It's a whole full-fledged subculture in existence here, yet you claim it to be only slightly true, and mostly false.

You're giving the "media" wayyy to much anecdotal credit without taking a step back and analyzing other streams and supplements, and providing actual evidence to support your claims. The media is the reason teens have body issues, the reason people prefer iPhones, the reason for the Trump lead, the reason a woman might date/marry a white guy, the reason a man might prefer a lighter-skinned woman, etc, etc, and etc to infinity. The media is often, and rather pointlessly, blamed for everything. The media - the perfect scapegoat for lazy reporting.

EnlightenedSoul:

Well, Fulanis and Hausas are hardly unicorns in that aspect, Fula. The truth of the matter is, cultures all across the globe, Somalis/Hausas/Fulanis/whatever will marry from their own the vast majority of the time, but that plenty of folks, most especially those who reside outside their root countries, increasingly tend to marry from outside their respective cultures as well. This is a matter of access more than anything else as you'll find that the likelihood an immigrant date and marry expressly from their own culture steadily and naturally decreases with their increased exposure to the mesh of other cultures and races within their host country (usually a Western country), and most especially as the generations wane on.

In addressing this trend, the idea that women, specifically, of African roots, specifically, must date/marry AA and African men only for the fact that they're "other than" (White), or otherwise be accused of being thoroughly brainwashed and hypnotized by Western media - as must be, in the same vein, fans of the iPhone, and men who prefer women with a lighter complexion - is certainly intriguing on a whole other level from any argument I've ever heard for 'racial' purity thus far, so a tip of the hat to you.

Curiously, you go on to focus on African women in Africa and charge them of being swept away by Western media antics, which in itself I have no way of ascertaining (and were I to utilize NL, the largest African forum, as a base of observation, it isn't so much an environment where women praise and tout foreign white men as supreme, but the exact opposite, one wherein native male users are often seen loudly and systematically praising foreign women they've never seen IRL above their native Nigerian women), but completely ignore the actual subjects of the conversation; women born/raised/living in Western climes who're dating white men, and who's utter reliance on a so-called foreign brainwashing mechanism cannot be held suspect. Any woman who's actually dated white men will tell you the average white man mostly differs from the average African, or African-American man, culturally.

And based purely on that, I, for one, would 1000%, hands-down, marry a White guy over an African-American guy. You cannot deign to tell me this is due to some perceived fiscal worth, or because I've been brainwashed by a media-machine, due to the savior plot in Blood Diamonds and the antics of Hollywood. I actually live here. I've had experiences and I've made my own observations, and this unsavory, thuggish image you squarely accuse Western news of propagating, as if neutral news accounts are fictitious, is one that AAs spread themselves through their own music and otherwise, and actually live by, in droves. It's a whole full-fledged subculture in existence here, yet you claim it to be only slightly true, and mostly false.

You're giving the "media" wayyy to much anecdotal credit without taking a step back and analyzing other streams and supplements, and providing actual evidence to support your claims. The media is the reason teens have body issues, the reason people prefer iPhones, the reason for the Trump lead, the reason a woman might date/marry a white guy, the reason a man might prefer a lighter-skinned woman, etc, etc, and etc to infinity. The media is often, and rather pointlessly, blamed for everything. The media - the perfect scapegoat for lazy reporting.

I'll respond to this within the next hour and a half before I go to bed lol

EnlightenedSoul:
but completely ignore the actual subjects of the conversation; women born/raised/living in Western climes who're dating white men, and who's utter reliance on a so-called foreign brainwashing mechanism cannot be held suspect. Any woman who's actually dated white men will tell you the average white man mostly differs from the average African, or African-American man, culturally.

I think that you are being overly simplistic in your analysis. You cannot undermine the significance of the stereotypes that are propagated through the media in colouring how some people of colour come to view their own people vs. white people (the dominant culture). Logically speaking, the "brainwashing mechanism" would be even greater in a white society than in Africa due to a closer proximity to the dominant culture as well as a diluted cultural identity on the part of the immigrant population. Immigrants in the West are constantly told that their native cultures are inferior and that in order to become more "civilised" and "advanced", they need to adopt the cultural norms of the host nation (which, by the way, are also exported to Africa - sometimes at the point of a gun). People internalise this propaganda to varying degrees. It is not unthinkable that many African women in the West come to view white men as being inherently superior to their own. In fact, some will even say this outright (they are all over the internet). This isn't just a random theory by the way. PR-specialists such as Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays have spoken at length about the far-reaching role of the media in propagating stereotypes and how these stereotypes can then be used to influence and control people through perception. Perception is reality as they say. If you want to understand how this specifically applies to colonised people, then check out Frantz Fanon's "White Skin, Black Masks" in which he describes this phenomenon at length and in great detail.

I'm not saying that every black person who chooses to marry a white person is doing so based on self-hate. There are, however, certain dynamics that cannot be ignored especially in the case of someone from a colonised nation who chooses to exclusively date/marry someone other than their own people.

As for your statement that you would much rather marry a white man than an AA, then this indicates (at least to me) that you feel closer to "white culture" than AA culture (perhaps even more than your own Somali culture?). Judging by your posts here, you seem like a liberal/progressive atheist/agnostic feminist (please correct me if I am wrong, I base this on some things you wrote in the religion forum as well as your posts here), which kind of explains why you have a closer cultural affinity to a white person rather than the average African/AA. There is a larger pool of whites who share your ideals than the average African or AA person, so that's quite natural IMO. That by itself would not indicate "self-hate". IF, however, you choose to exclusively date/marry white men and categorically refuse to even entertain the thought of dating men who come from a similar background, then that would strongly indicate a level of internalised racism.

It would also be interesting to look into why you've adopted certain concepts/beliefs that evolved within the specific context of "white culture", and thus cannot be assumed to be universally applicable, as your own culture. But maybe that's a topic for a different thread and would side-track this current discussion.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ps. can you please try to make it as concise as possible??

It's also quite interesting to note that you associate AA culture with thuggery and hip-hop music. I am assuming that you associate "white culture" with more positivity.

Couldn't you just as well have associated "white culture" with genocides, racism, school-shootings, serial killers, redneck Trump supporters, the destruction of our planet, colonialism, slavery etc..?

Somguy:


I think that you are being overly simplistic in your analysis. You cannot undermine the significance of the stereotypes that are propagated through the media in colouring how some people of colour come to view their own people vs. white people (the dominant culture). Logically speaking, the "brainwashing mechanism" would be even greater in a white society than in Africa due to a closer proximity to the dominant culture as well as a diluted cultural identity on the part of the immigrant population. Immigrants in the West are constantly told that their native cultures are inferior and that in order to become more "civilised" and "advanced", they need to adopt the cultural norms of the host nation (which, by the way, are also exported to Africa - sometimes at the point of a gun). People internalise this propaganda to varying degrees. It is not unthinkable that many African women in the West come to view white men as being inherently superior to their own. In fact, some will even say this outright (they are all over the internet). This isn't just a random theory by the way. PR-specialists such as Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays have spoken at length about the far-reaching role of the media in propagating stereotypes and how these stereotypes can then be used to influence and control people through perception. Perception is reality as they say. If you want to understand how this specifically applies to colonised people, then check out Frantz Fanon's "White Skin, Black Masks" in which he describes this phenomenon at length and in great detail.

I'm not saying that every black person who chooses to marry a white person is doing so based on self-hate. There are, however, certain dynamics that cannot be ignored especially in the case of someone from a colonised nation who chooses to exclusively date/marry someone other than their own people.

As for your statement that you would much rather marry a white man than an AA, then this indicates (at least to me) that you feel closer to "white culture" than AA culture (perhaps even more than your own Somali culture?). Judging by your posts here, you seem like a liberal/progressive atheist/agnostic feminist (please correct me if I am wrong, I base this on some things you wrote in the religion forum as well as your posts here), which kind of explains why you have a closer cultural affinity to a white person rather than the average African/AA. There is a larger pool of whites who share your ideals than the average African or AA person, so that's quite natural IMO. That by itself would not indicate "self-hate". IF, however, you choose to exclusively date/marry white men and categorically refuse to even entertain the thought of dating men who come from a similar background, then that would strongly indicate a level of internalised racism.

It would also be interesting to look into why you've adopted certain concepts/beliefs that evolved within the specific context of "white culture", and thus cannot be assumed to be universally applicable, as your own culture. But maybe that's a topic for a different thread and would side-track this current discussion.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ps. can you please try to make it as concise as possible??

I was going to write a response to her more in lines to what you wrote. I don't believe that I could have said it in a better fashion than you my dear friend/brother. Well done!

Somguy:


I think that you are being overly simplistic in your analysis. You cannot undermine the significance of the stereotypes that are propagated through the media in colouring how some people of colour come to view their own people vs. white people (the dominant culture). Logically speaking, the "brainwashing mechanism" would be even greater in a white society than in Africa due to a closer proximity to the dominant culture as well as a diluted cultural identity on the part of the immigrant population. Immigrants in the West are constantly told that their native cultures are inferior and that in order to become more "civilised" and "advanced", they need to adopt the cultural norms of the host nation (which, by the way, are also exported to Africa - sometimes at the point of a gun). People internalise this propaganda to varying degrees. It is not unthinkable that many African women in the West come to view white men as being inherently superior to their own. In fact, some will even say this outright (they are all over the internet). This isn't just a random theory by the way. PR-specialists such as Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays have spoken at length about the far-reaching role of the media in propagating stereotypes and how these stereotypes can then be used to influence and control people through perception. Perception is reality as they say. If you want to understand how this specifically applies to colonised people, then check out Frantz Fanon's "White Skin, Black Masks" in which he describes this phenomenon at length and in great detail.

I'm not saying that every black person who chooses to marry a white person is doing so based on self-hate. There are, however, certain dynamics that cannot be ignored especially in the case of someone from a colonised nation who chooses to exclusively date/marry someone other than their own people.

As for your statement that you would much rather marry a white man than an AA, then this indicates (at least to me) that you feel closer to "white culture" than AA culture (perhaps even more than your own Somali culture?). Judging by your posts here, you seem like a liberal/progressive atheist/agnostic feminist (please correct me if I am wrong, I base this on some things you wrote in the religion forum as well as your posts here), which kind of explains why you have a closer cultural affinity to a white person rather than the average African/AA. There is a larger pool of whites who share your ideals than the average African or AA person, so that's quite natural IMO. That by itself would not indicate "self-hate". IF, however, you choose to exclusively date/marry white men and categorically refuse to even entertain the thought of dating men who come from a similar background, then that would strongly indicate a level of internalised racism.

It would also be interesting to look into why you've adopted certain concepts/beliefs that evolved within the specific context of "white culture", and thus cannot be assumed to be universally applicable, as your own culture. But maybe that's a topic for a different thread and would side-track this current discussion.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ps. can you please try to make it as concise as possible??

Well said, kudos.

@ Somguy

It's past midnight, and I keep getting interrupted and can't stick it out. I'll be responding to your post later today, hopefully.

@ Somguy

Update: Though, I've quite a few initial thoughts and reactions, upon [re]reading your post, I felt it necessary to familiarize myself with the individuals and works you've directly and heavily referenced to form your assertions, so as not to speak with blind ignorance as to the embodiment of your stance. Of which, to be frank, only Walter Lippmann and his concept of the "bewildered herd" (which is what I assume you're referring to with regard to stereotypes) was I previously aware. So far, I've perused 70 pages of "Propaganda" by E. Bernays, an easy-peasy 150 pg. production, this evening after leisure. I will also read your cited work of Fanon's, "White Skin, Black Masks", of a significantly longer 255 pages, both of which I've found easily downloadable PDF files for.

Meanwhile, I will respond to the rest of your response that doesn't deal so much with cited texts, namely those regarding my person:

As for your statement that you would much rather marry a white man than an AA, then this indicates (at least to me) that you feel closer to "white culture" than AA culture (perhaps even more than your own Somali culture?). Judging by your posts here, you seem like a liberal/progressive atheist/agnostic feminist (please correct me if I am wrong, I base this on some things you wrote in the religion forum as well as your posts here), which kind of explains why you have a closer cultural affinity to a white person rather than the average African/AA. There is a larger pool of whites who share your ideals than the average African or AA person, so that's quite natural IMO. That by itself would not indicate "self-hate". IF, however, you choose to exclusively date/marry white men and categorically refuse to even entertain the thought of dating men who come from a similar background, then that would strongly indicate a level of internalised racism

I do not think you can accurately divide American culture into so-called "White culture" and "Black culture", but if we were to, for argument's sake, you'd have to concede the fact that so-called "Black culture" greatly influences the American psyche, in fact, the world, in myriad ways. The stereotypes you spoke of are hardly propagated by what I'm sure is what you'd call "White culture", through the Hollywood lens, but overwhelmingly by Blacks themselves, who're in charge of programming. Take a look at BET and facets of popular American pop culture, and you'll find these "stereotypical" images everywhere. Heck, you can dash it all and watch a Tyler Perry movie to get all what I mean.

Anyhoo, as aforementioned, I made that statement due to my own personal observations and experiences, as well as the secondhand experiences of others known to me. And, as it so happens, my limited interactions have thus far fit the stereotypes.
I'm a classical feminist, an agnostic atheist, a moderate whose been active in local elections since 18, but has never taken part in any national campaign/election thus far, and perhaps never will (the closest I've ever come being support for Libertarian candidate, Ron Paul). None of these labels have made me an untouchable (certainly not that I've noticed anyway), so to speak, among fellow Americans and young immigrants alike, whether of moderate, progressive, or conservative leaning, many of whom do not practice religion, or are pro free-thought even if they do. Others needn't "apply", as we wouldn't vibe anyhow. If the US is anything at all, it's a giant cacophony of many different peoples and ideas, which is another reason why your literally Black and White "White/Black culture" breakdown is false.

Do you live in the US?

-

EnlightenedSoul:
@ Somguy

Update: Though, I've quite a few initial thoughts and reactions, upon [re]reading your post, I felt it necessary to familiarize myself with the individuals and works you've directly and heavily referenced to form your assertions, so as not to speak with blind ignorance as to the embodiment of your stance. Of which, to be frank, only Walter Lippmann and his concept of the "bewildered herd" (which is what I assume you're referring to with regard to stereotypes) was I previously aware. So far, I've perused 70 pages of "Propaganda" by E. Bernays, an easy-peasy 150 pg. production, this evening after leisure. I will also read your cited work of Fanon's, "White Skin, Black Masks", of a significantly longer 255 pages, both of which I've found easily downloadable PDF files for.

Meanwhile, I will respond to the rest of your response that doesn't deal so much with cited texts, namely those regarding my person:



I do not think you can accurately divide American culture into so-called "White culture" and "Black culture", but if we were to, for argument's sake, you'd have to concede the fact that so-called "Black culture" greatly influences the American psyche, in fact, the world, in myriad ways. The stereotypes you spoke of are hardly propagated by what I'm sure is what you'd call "White culture", through the Hollywood lens, but overwhelmingly by Blacks themselves, who're in charge of programming. Take a look at BET and facets of popular American pop culture, and you'll find these "stereotypical" images everywhere. Heck, you can dash it all and watch a Tyler Perry movie to get all what I mean.

Anyhoo, as aforementioned, I made that statement due to my own personal observations and experiences, as well as the secondhand experiences of others known to me. And, as it so happens, my limited interactions have thus far fit the stereotypes.
I'm a classical feminist, an agnostic atheist, a moderate whose been active in local elections since 18, but has never taken part in any national campaign/election thus far, and perhaps never will (the closest I've ever come being support for Libertarian candidate, Ron Paul). None of these labels have made me an untouchable (certainly not that I've noticed anyway), so to speak, among fellow Americans and young immigrants alike, whether of moderate, progressive, or conservative leaning, many of whom do not practice religion, or are pro free-thought even if they do. Others needn't "apply", as we wouldn't vibe anyhow. If the US is anything at all, it's a giant cacophony of many different peoples and ideas, which is another reason why your literally Black and White "White/Black culture" breakdown is false.

Do you live in the US?

Thanks for your reply.

Have you dated AA men before? How were your experiences? What are some of the negative traits that you observed? I have noticed that many African women (from both East and West) avoid AA men like the plague. I've always chalked it up to negative stereotypes since I don't believe in painting an entire group of people with the same brush. But on the other hand, people have a right to make a decision based on their own reality and past experiences.

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a short while.

*Duplicate

Somguy:


Thanks for your reply.

Have you dated AA men before? How were your experiences? What are some of the negative traits that you observed? I have noticed that many African women (from both East and West) avoid AA men like the plague. I've always chalked it up to negative stereotypes since I don't believe in painting an entire group of people with the same brush. But on the other hand, people have a right to make a decision based on their own reality and past experiences.

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a short while.

Nah, on the contrary, I think if what I was saying was based purely on a bad personal relationship experience with an AA man, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on as it'd hold little more weight than air, being emotional reasoning. My statements were interaction and observation based.

I haven't dated AA men myself, but I have watched others who have done so in earnest in varying degrees of amusement/concern/awe. And the drama they come with, baggage and all, is better/worse than reality T.V. There are themes. Forget my dating one, it's to the level that if a friend was dating an AA guy (unless I knew her to be futzing), I'd be weary on her behalf until such a time as I could ascertain him to be a sane and decent person, and clean for pete's sake. I don't have the wherewithal to deal. And yet Fula was talking marriage, and y'll are trying to make it a skin color issue, like we don't have dark-skinned people among us.

EnlightenedSoul:


Nah, on the contrary, I think if what I was saying was based purely on a bad personal relationship experience with an AA man, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on as it'd hold little more weight than air, being emotional reasoning. My statements were interaction and observation based.

I haven't dated AA men myself, but I have watched others who have done so in earnest in varying degrees of amusement/concern/awe. And the drama they come with, baggage and all, is better/worse than reality T.V. There are themes. Forget my dating one, it's to the level that if a friend was dating an AA guy (unless I knew her to be futzing), I'd be weary on her behalf until such a time as I could ascertain him to be a sane and decent person, and clean for pete's sake. I don't have the wherewithal to deal. And yet Fula was talking marriage, and y'll are trying to make it a skin color issue, like we don't have dark-skinned people among us.

You know what, I've thought about this and started to notice certain things. I definitely don't blame you for avoiding them. Of course it's wrong to generalise, but as a group they seem to suffer from a multitude of complexes. Even their own women are beginning to shun them. Most of it is caused by a breakdown in family and a lack of values. I guess 3-400 years of being systematically disenfranchised leads to this.

But relationships/marriages are not supposed to be charity so I understand why you wouldn't want the risk of getting involved with any of their men.

They don't respect their own women so how do you think they would treat an African woman? If you want to see what their youth are up to you should check out some of their forums such as thecoli.com. Sad stuff.

Somguy:


You know what, I've thought about this and started to notice certain things. I definitely don't blame you for avoiding them. Of course it's wrong to generalise, but as a group they seem to suffer from a multitude of complexes. Even their own women are beginning to shun them. Most of it is caused by a breakdown in family and a lack of values. I guess 3-400 years of being systematically disenfranchised leads to this.

But relationships/marriages are not supposed to be charity so I understand why you wouldn't want the risk of getting involved with any of their men.

They don't respect their own women so how do you think they would treat an African woman? If you want to see what their youth are up to you should check out some of their forums such as thecoli.com. Sad stuff.

That's what I call a U-turn. It feels like you changed your opinion real, real quick. Am I that convincing?

No, honestly, I feel bad. And I don't want to bash. There are good and bad people everywhere, and I do try not to pre-judge, and treat people with a modicum of respect.

So, are you American?

EnlightenedSoul:


That's what I call a U-turn. It feels like you changed your opinion real, real quick. Am I that convincing?

No, honestly, I feel bad. And I don't want to bash. There are good and bad people everywhere, and I do try not to pre-judge, and treat people with a modicum of respect.

So, are you American?

I'm not a stubborn person. I have no problem with modifying my opinions from time to time and what I said about AA men was probably a bit too idealistic. But i still sick by everything else that I've said

Anyway, It's not (just) you. I've thought some more about this and although I don't believe in negatively stereotyping an entire people, it would be foolish to pretend that the conditions that these people have had to live under for centuries haven't had any negative impacts on their mentality as a group. These impacts have shaped how they view family, relationships etc.. I'm not saying that they are all the same, but I understand why you wouldn't want to take any risks with who you become involved with. It's similar to how many women avoid getting into relationships with Indian/Pakistani men for fear of ending up in an abusive relationship since that's a real issue in their community.

Infidelity, lack of commitment etc are real issues in the black community and you'd be foolish not to take that into consideration when searching for a potential spouse. I understand that.

No I'm not American but I do interact with Americans almost every day through work + most of my family lives in the states. I grew up in the Arab Gulf, currently living in Europe.

Plus I have many cousins who are half American (both white and black).

Somguy:


I'm not a stubborn person. I have no problem with modifying my opinions from time to time and what I said about AA men was probably a bit too idealistic. But i still sick by everything else that I've said

Anyway, It's not (just) you. I've thought some more about this and although I don't believe in negatively stereotyping an entire people, it would be foolish to pretend that the conditions that these people have had to live under for centuries haven't had any negative impacts on their mentality as a group. These impacts have shaped how they view family, relationships etc.. I'm not saying that they are all the same, but I understand why you wouldn't want to take any risks with who you become involved with. It's similar to how many women avoid getting into relationships with Indian/Pakistani men for fear of ending up in an abusive relationship since that's a real issue in their community.

Infidelity, lack of commitment etc are real issues in the black community and you'd be foolish not to take that into consideration when searching for a potential spouse. I understand that.

No I'm not American but I do interact with Americans almost every day through work + most of my family lives in the states. I grew up in the Arab Gulf, currently living in Europe.

Plus I have many cousins who are half American (both white and black).

It's not necessarily infidelity or lack of commitment. I mean, it's not like I think they have a monopoly on infidelity, or anything. You can find that anywhere you go, really. And it's def not like I've been actively searching for a spouse and thus avoiding them for those reasons, lol, no...but I don't know how to explain it. There's a prevalent mentality I don't like. It is what it is.

What gulf country, if I may ask? Did you like it? I spent some time in one Arab country, Egypt. Man, did I not like it there, but it widened my horizons. I'm in the US, and most my immediate family is out here, or in some parts of Europe. But also many others are back home in Djibouti on my father's side particularly. Yes, we have some admixture in our family as well as far other African and white ethnicities in my extended family, up to and including my nephew, my sister's youngest child, whom is half-white. That's not to say that does anything in the way of making quite a few of my family members any more tolerant of it, tho, interrelationships and all.

Well, it's nice to meet you.

EnlightenedSoul:


It's not necessarily infidelity or lack of commitment. I mean, it's not like I think they have a monopoly on infidelity, or anything. You can find that anywhere you go, really. And it's def not like I've been actively searching for a spouse and thus avoiding them for those reasons, lol, no...but I don't know how to explain it. There's a prevalent mentality I don't like. It is what it is.

What gulf country, if I may ask? Did you like it? I spent some time in one Arab country, Egypt. Man, did I not like it there, but it widened my horizons. I'm in the US, and most my immediate family is out here, or in some parts of Europe. But also many others are back home in Djibouti on my father's side particularly. Yes, we have some admixture in our family as well as far other African and white ethnicities in my extended family, up to and including my nephew, my sister's youngest child, whom is half-white. That's not to say that does anything in the way of making quite a few of my family members any more tolerant of it, tho, interrelationships and all.

Well, it's nice to meet you.

I grew up in the UAE. My father was raised in Aden, worked as a seaman and then eventually settled in the UAE where he worked as an electrician. Overall, I liked it. There's a strict hierarchy in terms of race/ethnicity though. The locals were at the top, then came the rest of the Arabs (Syrians, Egyptians) etc plus the Somalis and Sudanese. Then at the bottom you had the Pakistanis/Indians/Bengalis, Filipinos, Sri Lankans etc.. We were treated quite well and had access to certain opportunities that many others didn't. Plenty of Somalis became wealthy in the UAE. Even today, I'd say that, on average, Somalis in the Gulf are doing way better than Somalis elsewhere in the diaspora in terms of education, employment, living standards etc.. I'm not talking about recent refugees but the migrants who have been living there for decades.

Egypt is nice, it's just very poor. I was there a few years ago. It was a lovely experience.

As for interracial relationships, I'm not going to lie.. I am definitely against Somalis (especially well-educated, intelligent brothers and sisters) marrying out for the simple fact that we need to build strong, healthy communities in the diaspora. I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes to that. But at the same time, people are going to do what they think is best for them so I don't really concern myself with what the next man/woman is doing. I just focus on doing what I think is right.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't go for a non-Somali.

Nice to meet you too.

Somguy:


I grew up in the UAE. My father was raised in Aden, worked as a seaman and then eventually settled in the UAE where he worked as an electrician. Overall, I liked it. There's a strict hierarchy in terms of race/ethnicity though. The locals were at the top, then came the rest of the Arabs (Syrians, Egyptians) etc plus the Somalis and Sudanese. Then at the bottom you had the Pakistanis/Indians/Bengalis, Filipinos, Sri Lankans etc.. We were treated quite well and had access to certain opportunities that many others didn't. Plenty of Somalis became wealthy in the UAE. Even today, I'd say that, on average, Somalis in the Gulf are doing way better than Somalis elsewhere in the diaspora in terms of education, employment, living standards etc.. I'm not talking about recent refugees but the migrants who have been living there for decades.

Egypt is nice, it's just very poor. I was there a few years ago. It was a lovely experience.

As for interracial relationships, I'm not going to lie.. I am definitely against Somalis (especially well-educated, intelligent brothers and sisters) marrying out for the simple fact that we need to build strong, healthy communities in the diaspora. I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes to that. But at the same time, people are going to do what they think is best for them so I don't really concern myself with what the next man/woman is doing. I just focus on doing what I think is right.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't go for a non-Somali.

Nice to meet you too.

That's neat. Very interesting background. My mother was born and raised in France, and my father in Djibouti. They met in University where my father had transferred in pursuit of further education, but then ended up settling also. We were then all of us children born there before emigrating to the US.

Interesting breakdown @ the hierarchy. Funnily enough, we'd actually get a lot of Khaleeji folk in the summer, escaping the unbearable heat of their respective countries to find respite in Egypt (something that always shocked me as I found Egypt too hot, and couldn't imagine worse), and they definitely tended to look their noses down at the locals in their own country! In that respect, Egypt wasn't that diverse, and being a poor country that didn't attract but a patchy network of resident foreigners, most of which were using the country as a pit-stop with plans to leave it anyway, it was nothing like what you outlined. But, there was a discernible heirarchy amongst the Egyptians themselves icertain groups. For example, the Aswanis were stigmatized and a group called the Saeedi people with their customs were the butt of many a culturally-toned Egyptian joke in social settings and on TV shows. There was also a strong economic divide between the elite few and much, much poorer masses, and I know things have only been getting worse since their revolution. For a period of time, it was worthwhile in culture, food, and their history, and I find them, Egyptians, different from other Arabs and much prefer them to the rest of them by a stretch. But after a little while, living there felt very limiting and isolating.

My own opinion on interrelationships and marriages is nondiscriminatory. I think, out here in the diaspora, it's inevitable that some people will branch out given the opportunity, or through sheer chance and circumstance, or even through necessity in places where there aren't very many of us, like where I am. Date out or dont, it doesn't bother me and I don't mind either way. People will do as they please anyhow, so I personally don't see the reason to begrudge them their choices.

@Somguy and @EnlightenedSoul, I respect both of your opinions honestly however for the most part I disagree.

In science, we don't use the actions of a few to judge an entire group of people. There are various environmental factors that shape an individual. People can not be viewed as a group. An example is can we use Ajuran's actions on NL and judge other Somalis that come here based on those preconceived notions? Absolutely not.

There are around 30 million African Americans. How many have either of you met personally? I have met maybe 20 in my lifetime that I came to know when I studied in the United States and I can tell you out of those 20 African Americans only 2 treated me with hostility for being an African. So 18/20 were quite friendly with me. That's 90%. I would take those numbers any day of the week.

Many of you may not be willing to admit it, but many of your views are shaped by the media and by others views (when I say others, it could be friends, family, etc.) One thing I have found out is that no one is an Angel.

There are many white guys who do bad things, however, the media does not highlight those things. Most serial killers in the United States for example are white, I guess many of you forget that, now, that is not to be misinterpreted that every white person is a serial killer. That would be bigoted. However, it's no less bigoted than saying every Afr. American is bad.

I don't view people as groups, if I did, then in my eyes no group is better than another. Every skin colour is capable of horrendous things. However, if we continue to limit ourselves with a limited mindset and prejudice then we will definitely not move forward in this world. Many human beings are quite hypocritical which is sad. Hopefully one day we will open our eyes to truth.

@ Fulaman198 I disagree with you, of course, but that's OK.

The thing is, I wouldn't fault a Nigerian on here for thinking Somalis to be an awfully bigoted group of people, because it's what they're continually witness to, and seemingly exposed to. Sure, it's due to some loser creating a million online identities to troll with, but they can sure as heck still come to that realization through rational means. All I can do on here, as a Somali myself, is be me and hopefully supply something different in the process.

Science doesn't "judge the actions of a few", but it doesn't don rose-colored glasses, either. It deals with the bare-nak.ed facts, and the numbers on the ground. The research clearly shows White people are statistically more likely to become serial killers. As such, you are definitely, 1000% allowed to acknowledge that as the reality it is. Likewise the crime statistics and attitudinal leanings of any other group and culture, which do exist to varying degrees.

Furthermore, you're mixing science and opinion, and then using your own opinions and experiences to form your own set of statistics to set forth as proof/example. You apply the same the method you chastised against for so-called "judging a group through the actions of a few" negatively by using your own sample size to then judge the same group positively, through the actions of a few. And then, you finish it off with your biased and factually wrong media scapegoating tactic from before. I mean, come on, did you seriously just say the media doesn't highlight serial killers? Really?