DieVluit:


And your "fact-loaded" retort proves that. Sure, dude.

Meanwhile, as for morale in the Nigerian military...

..picture related.

and it keeps descending.. why not try to articulate your opinion better instead of this.

stillchris:

and it keeps descending.. why not try to articulate your opinion better instead of this.

No need for anything beyond what you've failed to counter. Very simply put: Lack of morale is the mainstay of the Nigerian military and you've happily explained why - in your own words. No need for anything beyond that. You have no counter.

DieVluit:


[s]No need for anything beyond what you've failed to counter. Very simply put: Lack of morale is the mainstay of the Nigerian military and you've happily explained why - in your own words. No need for anything beyond that. You have no counter[/s].

nope. not articulate enough. try another one

stillchris:

nope. not articulate enough. try another one

The fact that you have no counter is more that enough. All you have are posts that mean nothing. But a counter, you will never have.

The all-weather Kondor-E spy satellite.

DieVluit:


The fact that you have no counter is more that enough. All you have are posts that mean nothing. But a counter, you will never have.

com'on, don't stop now.

just articulate your point. daz all

stillchris:

com'on, don't stop now.
just articulate your point. daz all

You have no counter to the point. Just empty posts. So it sits pretty, unchallenged. No further work needed from me. Otherwise, you wouldn't beg me for anything. You have nothing.

stillchris:


patches, when will you grow up and learn not to always ignorantly twist things to suite your lies and fabricatiins on this thread?

Missing movement and mutiny in any military in the world (maybe except SA) is a criminal act that carries severe penalty. just incase you have comprehension problem,

Missing Movement is another term used to describe when members of the armed forces fail to
arrive at the appointed time to deploy (or "move
out" with their assigned unit, ship, or aircraft. In
the United States Armed Forces, this is a violation of the Article 87 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). The offense is similar to absence without leave but may draw more severe punishment.[3]
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

Those men where not under supplied because the rest of the unit still advanced and the operation was successful according to their commanders statement during the start of the trial before journalists were barred from covering the trial because of some details that are supposed to be private. does that sound like an under supplied unit to you?

please post a link of any soldier that was punished for retreating. these saffers no get sense at allllllll..

Unfortunately for them, that's what we signed-up for. No dulling on duty.

Chaos here.

..

On Wednesday, the Nigerian Army’s 7 division General Court Martial convicted 54 soldiers for conspiracy to commit mutiny and mutiny and sentenced them to death by firing squad.

In a trial that began in October, the soldiers, from the 111 Special Forces, were charged for disobeying a direct order from their commanding officer, Timothy Opurum, a Lieutenant Colonel, to take part in an operation to recapture Delwa, Bulabulin and Damboa in Borno State from Boko Haram terrorists on August 4.

Some of the accused soldiers testified that they refused to take part in the operation following the failure of the army to provide them with the necessary support equipment.

They explained that owing to a lack of equipment, they lost three officers, 23 soldiers plus 83 others suffering various degrees of injuries after their units were ambushed by Boko Haram fighters during an operation to retake the town of Bulabulin in Borno on July 9.

Some of the accused soldiers said they did not attend the briefing where the operation was announced, while others said they did not join the mission because they were ill and there was no medical personal attached to their unit to give medical assistance. Two other soldiers said they were given leave to attend to some administrative problems as at the time of the briefing.

Much of the trial was conducted in secret as journalists were barred mid-way into the deliberations.

PREMIUM TIMES has now obtained a copy of the closing addresses of the prosecution and defence just before the soldiers were convicted and sentenced. Below are some of the main points argued by opposing counsel.

The Prosecution

The prosecuting counsel, J.E. Nwosu, an army captain, in his closing address, argued that the soldiers conspired to commit mutiny by refusing to obey a direct order from their commanding officer to take part in the operation.

Citing related cases and judgements, Mr. Nwosu argued that on the first count of conspiracy to commit mutiny, the accused need not have met, held a meeting or communicated with one another to fall foul of the charge.

“My Lords, as the court held in Nwosu Vs The State (supra), proof of how the conspirators connected with or among themselves is not necessary,” he said. “Indeed these soldiers need not know each other. They need not have even started the conspiracy at the same time. Also express words need not pass between each and every one of the conspirators who do not even have to meet physically.”

He said the soldiers were walking “lackadaisically” in camp and refused to attend the briefing. He said they refused to leave their trenches and tents even after the commanding officer personally went to them individually to plead with them to be part of the operation. He said the soldiers’ demand for provision of adequate support equipment before they take part in the operation was a “hollow excuse.”

“The situation was so terrible that commissioned officers had to drive operational vehicles themselves since Bn [battalion] drivers were part of the mutineers,” he said. “All the actions of the accused soldiers happened at the same time and the prosecution contends strongly that they shared a common criminal intention to mutinise against the authority of 7 Div. The prosecution humbly submits that there must not be a formal meeting of the conspirators before they could be said to have conspired,” he said.

Mr. Nwosu argued that the soldiers were guilty of mutiny as charged for refusing to obey a direct order from a superior to take part in an operation for which they are paid. He said the soldiers chose to join voluntarily and should have explored the available channel of leaving if they felt they cannot cope.

“My Lords, as very senior officers, you are aware that the (Nigerian Army) is not a conscript army. Joining the NA [Nigerian Army] is a voluntary act and if a service personnel feels he cannot cope, there is a procedure for discharge which these soldiers are familiar with. The NA is not an organization with a trade union where members down tools to protest poor wages or poor working conditions.

“We strongly argue that their decision not to participate in the operation was not excusable. The prosecution submits that this second element has been proved before the court and therefore urges the court to so hold.”

The Defence

The defence team, made up of Femi Falana, a senior lawyer, and O.A. Oyebanji, a retired army major, opened its closing address by pointing out that its objection to the judge advocate of the GCM [General Court Martial], who is the legal adviser of the Commander, Army Headquarters Garrison, which conveyed the GCM handling the case, was overruled.

Citing definitions of mutiny from several legal authorities, the defence argued that the first count (conspiracy to commit munity) was a duplication and thus defective as conspiracy is embedded in the definition of mutiny. It also added that the count did not disclose the act of mutiny the soldiers conspired to commit.

“We therefore submit that count one is bad for duplicity,” the defence argued. “We also wish to submit that this charge as preferred is vague and ambiguous. The particular of offence didn’t disclose the actual act of mutiny which the 59 accused soldiers conspired to commit.

“My Lords, it is not part of our system of criminal justice that the contents of a charge should be subject of speculation and inference. The law is clear that the essential elements of an offence should be disclosed in a charge.”

Mr. Falana also said that the charge as it was presented violates the soldiers’ constitutional and human rights to fair trial and so should be quashed.

Arguing that the charge of conspiracy purports an agreement between two or more persons, he stated that the prosecution failed to prove that there were prior agreements by the accused to commit the alleged crime.

“My Lords, from the totality of evidence adduced in the course of this trial, the prosecution has failed to establish that there was an agreement between the 59 accused soldiers to commit mutiny. It is strongly contended that the prosecution has failed to establish the existence of any previous agreement to be mutinous in the face of irrefutable evidence that all the accused soldiers were not in the same place on that day so could not have formed the necessary common intention to ground a charge of conspiracy.”

He argued that the court-martial lacks the jurisdiction to hear the case since the soldiers belonged to the 111 Special Forces Battalion and not the 7 Division. He asked the GCM to dismiss the case on that ground.

On the second count of mutiny, Mr. Falana said the order from the commanding officer was an aberration of Nigerian military protocol where commanding officers are not allowed to pass orders directly to soldiers. He said since the commanding officer did not follow laid down army protocol, the order was not legitimate and the soldiers were under no obligation to obey it.

“Was the order legitimate and did the order followed the normal and standard procedure in the Nigerian Army for such an order? The obvious truth is that a Commanding Officer has no business giving operational orders or order to advance directly to soldiers. It is within the general service knowledge that a Commanding Officer is not expected and should never descend to the level of directly giving an order to a platoon or section to advance.”

Mr. Falana argued that soldiers demanding better weapon to fight the enemy could not be said to have been involved in mutiny. He also added that from evidence provided during the trial, the accused soldiers have distinguished themselves in previous combats with the insurgents and thus could not be accused of cowardice.

To buttress the gallantry of the soldiers, the defence counsel recalled how the soldiers were mobilised to extricate their commanding officer and other soldiers who had been pinned by superior fire from Boko Haram in Delwa on August 20. He said the soldiers did not only carry out the mission successfully, but also managed to recapture the town from the insurgents.

“We therefore submit that the accused soldiers didn’t deliberately and by collusion disobey the order given by the Commanding Officer,” Mr. Falana said. “They only requested for adequate support weapons commensurate to the weapons being used by the insurgents. They never said that they won’t fight rather they were ready and willing to fight if they are properly equipped. Their actions rather than strike at the foundation of discipline have ensured cohesion and unity. They had fought the Boko Haram insurgents with courage, commitment and loyalty to their country. They deserved commendation and not condemnation.”

In a statement Thursday, Mr. Falana faulted the conviction of the soldiers, saying the court-martial refused to consider the evidence led in court.

“Apart from the fact that the Prosecution did not lead any scintilla of evidence to prove the 2-count charge of conspiracy and mutiny against any of the convicts the Court-martial did not consider the defence of the soldiers in any material particular,” said Mr. Falana.

“We submit that the oath of allegiance taken by the accused soldiers is not a license to commit suicide. It is a solemn undertaking to defend the nation based on the expectation that the Federal Government would have complied with Section 217 of the Constitution on the mandatory requirement to equip the armed forces adequately.

He said the convicted soldiers were sent on a suicide mission by army authorities, ill-equipped and poorly motivated.

“The soldiers were in the SF 111 Batallion which has 174 instead of 750 soldiers,” said Mr. Falana, a Senior Advocate of Nigeria.

“The soldiers in the Batallion were neither equipped nor motivated. They are young men whose ages range between 21 and 25. Most of them joined the army in 2012.

“With little or no training whatsoever they were deployed to fight the dreaded Boko Haram sect.”

Mr. Falana also accused the army hierarchy of diverting funds allocated for payment of salaries and allowances of soldiers and for purchase of arms and ammunition.

“Instead of bringing such unpatriotic officers to book the military authorities have engaged in the diversionary tactics of wasting the lives of innocent soldiers by sentencing them to death without any legal justification,” Mr. Falana said.

Henry240:


You see how foolish you are?

From your own link

"The Czech Air Force has deployed five of its JAS-39 Gripen fighter aircraft and a total of 80 aircrew and ground personnel from 21st Tactical Air Force Base Čáslav to Iceland."

So where is the comma?

I know there is no comma! you fool, thus 80 represents Aircrew + Ground personnel. South Africa had close to 50 Aircrew and ground personnel for their 4 jets at lion effort 2012.

Patchesagain:


The jews screwed them with those kfirs btw

Long story, but yeah, those airframes have taken a beating

Actually the pics are ex Cheetah Cs, sold to the Ecuadorian air force in 2010, but you are right they also still fly the Kafirs, which are similar to the cheetah.

.

[size=16pt]South African air force has ONLY 6 Gripen pilots today ![/size]

.

agaugust:


Blindness is your problem, not mine!
.

Your own @Henry120 stated that photos prove nothing

.
[size=16pt] South African air force is d.ead o !

No single Gripen jet pilot is qualified, the whole 26 Gripen fleet few only 200 hours in one year !

200 hours shared among 6 pilots means 33 hours flight per pilot per year !

No aviation fuel for SAAF o !

No single SAAF Gripen pilot is qualified to fly the Gripen in combat !

SAAF has NO qualified combat pilots o !

Yee ! Yeeee Egba mi ooooo ! My Nigerian brothers egba mi oooo ! Wahala dey ooooo !

South African air force combat force is NON-EXISTENT o ! [/size]
.

AugustineAgain:

.

[size=16pt]South African air force has ONLY 6 Gripen pilots today ![/size]

.

So six pilots flew 9 jets at once?
8 Pilots took part at lion effort 2012.
And i posted a source from defenceweb that state we have 14 pilots.

jl115:


So six pilots flew 9 jets at once?

8 Pilots took part at lion effort 2012.

News report is dated September 2014....Mumu....Learn to read.

Current breaking news !

SAAF has ONLY 6 Gripen pilots as at today Christmas 2014

.

F-7NI vs Cheetah C:
You decide.

AugustineAgain:


News report is dated September 2014....Mumu....Learn to read.

Current breaking news !

SAAF has ONLY 6 Gripen pilots as at today Christmas 2014

.

You posted 1 source, i posted multiple sources that dispute these claims.

jl115:

So six pilots flew 9 jets at once?
8 Pilots took part at lion effort 2012.
And i posted a source from defenceweb that state we have 14 pilots.

eiyaaaa!! do you realize your 9 grippen photos are about a year+ old and @augugust post is september?

this proves what we've been saying all along. your skilled personel keep disappearibg like willwili.

stillchris:


eiyaaaa!! do you realize your 9 grippen photos are about a year+ old and @augugust post is september?

this proves what we've been saying all along. your skilled personel keep disappearibg like willwili.

"18 Gripen navigators and pilots have been trained to operational status"

Date: 29 October 2014

www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36789:saaf-should-consider-selling-gripens-and-buying-transports&catid=61:editor-column

jl115:
F-7NI vs Cheetah C:
You decide.

both oudated.

Nigeria is about changing it's fleet to more powerful and easily maintainable (including fueling) fighters, while SAAF is still stuck with an outdated gripen it can't fly nor afford to fuel.

AugustineAgain:
.
[size=16pt] South African air force is d.ead o !

No single Gripen jet pilot is qualified, the whole 26 Gripen fleet few only 200 hours in one year !

200 hours shared among 6 pilots means 33 hours flight per pilot per year !

No aviation fuel for SAAF o !

No single Gripen pilots if qualified to fly the Gripen in combat !

SAAF has NO qualified combat pilots o !

Yee ! Yeeee Egba mi ooooo ! My Nigerian brothers egba mi oooo ! Wahala dey ooooo !

South African air force combat force is NON-EXISTENT o ! [/size]
.

Where are you getting these numbers from?

600hours? says who?

you?

jl115:


"18 Gripen navigators and pilots have been trained to operational status"

Date: 29 October 2014

www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36789:saaf-should-consider-selling-gripens-and-buying-transports&catid=61:editor-column

yeah, we've read your link before and it further proves the following:

you can't afford to fuel your jets
you don't have pilots to fly your jets
you A109s helicopters are grounded
you only have 3 half dead c-130s....

my man, the list is endless

stillchris:


both oudated.

Nigeria is about changing it's fleet to more powerful and easily maintainable (including fueling) fighters, while SAAF is still stuck with an outdated gripen it can't fly nor afford to fuel.

Are you Dum, Gripen c/d are 4.5 Gen Aircraft, and which aircraft is NAF changing to? the 3rd Gen Jf-17, NAF has made no attempt as yet to acquire any fighter Aircraft.

stillchris:


yeah, we've read your link before and it further proves the following:

you can't afford to fuel your jets
you don't have pilots to fly your jets
you A109s helicopters are grounded
you only have 3 half dead c-130s....

my man, the list is endless

We have a surplus of Fuel.
We have 54 hawk pilots which can easily be converted to Gripen pilots
Our A109s where possibly grounded due to paper work, although these reports are not confirmed.
We have 9 fully upgraded C-130BZs

AugustineAgain:

.

[size=16pt]South African air force has ONLY 6 Gripen pilots today ![/size]

.

i could say allot about this post

I could waste time hitting it point by point

But I wont, waste of time. We have discussed all of it before, and all of it has been debunked

Fact of the matter is that they are referring to 2013 (its the end of 2014 now), they have no citations as most is based on sensationalist media from publications such as the Beeld and the testimony of one Mr Crawford-browne (whom was subsequently humiliated by the state infornt of the Sereti Commission) and that agugubgugug cherry-picked statements from it

Reading the rest of the artical I am quite happy with what it has to say (which is why he didnt post a weblink for us to read it)

Should I post the rest of the artical?

stillchris:


eiyaaaa!! do you realize your 9 grippen photos are about a year+ old and @augugust post is september?

this proves what we've been saying all along. your skilled personel keep disappearibg like willwili.

the artical is referring to 2013 with respect to the Gripen - no one disputes that 2013 was a bad year for the Gripen.

5 hours per month per pilot is well inline with world standards, and just ahead of the USAF average

I am stile quite content

SAAF = 14 4th Gen Fighters
NAF = ZERO 4th gen fighters

With regards to the whole "SAAF pilots leaving to join the Australian Airforce" line of argument - no south african citizen can serve in a foreign defence force except in the humanitarian role. and citizenship is not immediatly given to foreigners serving in the ADF, hence, it is legally impossible for them to do so.
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Mercenaries/WG/Law/SouthAfrica6.pdf

stillchris:


both oudated.

Nigeria is about changing it's fleet to more powerful and easily maintainable (including fueling) fighters, while SAAF is still stuck with an outdated gripen it can't fly nor afford to fuel.

Gripen remains the cheapest fighter to operate in the world at $5000 per flight our (dry and wet costs) and can be re-armed and re-fueled in under 10min

We have 22 000 flight hours paid for, and 18 000 achieved, meaning we have a fuel and budget excess from the last financial year

stillchris:


yeah, we've read your link before and it further proves the following:

you can't afford to fuel your jets
you don't have pilots to fly your jets
you A109s helicopters are grounded
you only have 3 half dead c-130s....

my man, the list is endless

1. 18 000 flight hours says we have enough
2. 14 pilots for 4th gen platforms is 14 more pilots than you have
3. Because their paperwork is not in order
4. Because of the maintenance cycle, i take it that you too have not heard of the 1/3 rule