afam4eva:

@aribisala
It's obvious you have a hiddent agenda. That's why you left the topic about Ikwerre being Igbo and delved into the fact that port-hacourt is not Ikwerreland. Your tribalistic nature wil not allow you to argue objectively.

it is obvious you have hidden okrikpoto. that is why you eat garri with soup instead of kerosine. your hairy nature will not allow you to argue  biologically

Everyone agrees that ethnicity is a thing of personal choice.I wonder where aribisala0 got his impression from.

Everyone is aware that PH consists of Ikwere and Kirike elements. So what exactly is the issue with Iguocha?

As for the Ikwere/Igbo issue most aren't even concerned with it, because any objective person will look at Ikwere and make the Igbo connection, regardless. Just as how I will always be associated with Igbo, regardless of me being Ngwa. What people have a problem with is their constant lying and denying of ethnic affinity with specific groups, until recently that is.

well there are two sides to the story it seems some people want to have the final word- BY FORCE.

we all know the issues too well

because i happen to take the view that the issue is complex and not just one way people resort to name calling.

the issue with iguocha is that it is an inaccuracy to say port harcourt was ever known as iguocha this is clearly UNTRUE
it is important to dismantle this falsehood so it does not provide a foundation for more distortions

Where are you getting this "PH was never referred to as Iguocha" thing?

Now the argument has gone from 'prove to me that Iguocha was ever used', to Iguocha was never used and is a name introduced by the homogenous Igbo north of the Ikwere. The same person wants us to rely on 20 years of experience we can't verify.

[center][img]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cFQ8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA74&img=1&pgis=1&dq=iguocha&sig=ACfU3U2sjVkf7HwyQRZB3zVtNfc4s28W0Q&edge=0[/img]
Port Harcourt, and I anticipate, that, in the future, it will be one of
the most important ports in the coast of West Africa.[/center]
http://books.google.com/books?id=cFQ8AAAAIAAJ&q=iguocha

Frederick Lugard

ezeagu you are just avoiding the truth.  i am not stating anything only challenging the ludicrous claims you make which you cannot substantiate and then you try and confuse people.

1.you  are the one claiming that ikwerre are igbo. personally i do not know the truth but i know that there is a dispute and i know that the ikwerre language has been recognized as a distinct language by Nigeria.

2.i know that some people claim that PH developed from IGUOCHA this is  at best an error and at worst a lie and i challenge you to provide ONE Ikwerre source to corroborate this claim.

there is no record of Ikwerres EVER using this term the simple refutation is PROVIDE ONE

these are the only issues i am interested in everything else is NOISE and a futile attempt to confuse.


it is a different thing to say there was a place in PH called IGUOCHA from [b]THE CORRECT NAME OF PH is IGUOCHA [/b]as many like to claim
deal with the issues and stop this rigmarole.

naturally i know you and your cotravellers have NO ANSWER to the issues and so i expect more personal attacks and fustian rhetoric

you already claimed that iguocha was the name used by ohafia people  for what exactly and why was that name NOT SUITABLE.

why did not the colonialists consider any other names to be NOT  suitable across the whole of Nigeria
i have a theory but let us leave it at that

aribisala0:

ezeagu you are just avoiding the truth.  i am not stating anything only challenging the ludicrous claims you make which you cannot substantiate and then you try and confuse people.

LOL.

aribisala0:

1.you  are the one claiming that ikwerre are igbo. personally i do not know the truth but i know that there is a dispute and i know that the ikwerre language has been recognized as a distinct language by Nigeria.

Go and read any boo. . . . in fact go and take Elechi Amadi to Bauchi and ask the natives there what he is.

aribisala0:
2.i know that some people claim that PH developed from IGUOCHA this is  at best an error and at worst a lie and i challenge you to provide ONE Ikwerre source to corroborate this claim.

Are we now resorting to this? Because Ikwerre people will disclaim Port Harcourt started from their lands?

aribisala0:
there is no record of Ikwerres EVER using this term the simple refutation is PROVIDE ONE

As usual, you're telling me to provide sources, while you have not for your claims of the "Rebisi kingdom". Give me an Ikwere account of the founding of Port Harcourt instead then. First it was the letter didn't exist, now Iguocha has to come from some Ikwere source.

aribisala0:

these are the only issues i am interested in everything else is NOISE and a futile attempt to confuse.

deal with the issues and stop this rigmarole.

naturally i know you and your cotravellers have NO ANSWER to the issues and so i expect more personal attacks and fustian rhetoric

Everything you said here is what you're doing. And you probably know it. Go back to my posts here and see if I've strayed off the topic of Iguocha and Diobu. I gave you the history, you asked for the letter, I've given it, now you want an Ikwere source, as if Ikwere sources are full on the net. If I even give you a source how will you even be able to tell if the person is Igbo or Ikwere?

aribisala0:

you already claimed that iguocha was the name used by ohafia people  for what exactly and why was that name NOT SUITABLE.

why did not the colonialists consider any other names to be NOT  suitable across the whole of Nigeria
i have a theory but let us leave it at that

Why is Lagos not called Èkó?

ChinenyeN:

Where are you getting this "PH was never referred to as Iguocha" thing?

you tell us where you get PH was called iguocha
all the records i have seen suggest iguocha was  point in Diobu. it was not known by the locals/natives as such.

none of the history of the IKWERRES uses that word. NONE

so if you claim PH was known as iguocha

tell us WHEN

WHEN DID IT  CHANGE

what were the boundaries of iguocha

as far as i am concerned it is falsehood

the account in wikipedia about iguocha and PH is a clear and shameless attempt to rewrite history.


Port Harcourt was NEVER called Iguocha.

aribisala0:
none of the history of the IKWERRES uses that word. NONE

As someone that has seriously studied Ikwere history.

I'm certain we have already had this exact same Iguocha discussion before, where these very same "points" of yours were addressed, aribisala.

your brother posted a link to a version of Ikwerre history on the previous page there are two books, read them.

but

are you retracting your claim that ohafia people introduced the term ,

the reason i cited my 20 years  in PH was to show my knowledge of the layout which it is clear you do not  know

if you did you will not talk of diobu and cliffs. there are so many villages that make up the ikwerre part of PH and they have all been in existence before lugard came so it is a fallacy to say PH developed from Diobu.
diobu is part of REBISI  which along with several other communities came to be known as port harcourt after the PORT not after iguocha
more importantly the actual TOWN  centre is Not on IKwerre land.

neither is the port it is NOT in Diobu . i repeat the port is NOT in Diobu, the railway terminal is a different matter

ChinenyeN:

I'm certain we have already had this exact same Iguocha discussion before, where these very same "points" of yours were addressed, aribisala.

i am sure too

i have not changed my mind .
someone opened the subject today and i am at home.

as many times as they open it i will respond the same way

chinenye
the difference was that we were able to disagree without name calling

aribisala0:

your brother posted a link to a version of Iwerre history on the previous page there are two books read them but are you retracting your claim that ohafia people introduced the term ,

If you go back read properly then your question will be answered.

aribisala0:

the reason i cited my 20 years  in PH was to show my knowledge of the layout which it is clear you do not  know

if you did you will not talk of diobu and cliffs.

I don't understand what you are actually arguing. Are you saying there are no cliffs near Diobu?

aribisala0:
there are so many villages that make up the ikwerre part of PH and they have all been in existence before lugard came so it is a fallacy to say PH developed from Diobu.

This just sounds like a nonsense paragraph, you claimed PH did not develop from Diobu because it was there before it, some kind of reasoning I don't understand, then you say Diobu and some other communities came to be known as Port Harcourt.

aribisala0:

diobu is part of REBISI  which along with several other communities came to be known as port harcourt after the PORT not after iguocha

Who said Port Harcourt was named after Iguocha cliffs? And in historical records, as we've already seen, the "proposed port and [railway] terminus" was described as "Iguocha or Diobu". You refuse to address this source. Was Lugard secretly hinterland Igbo?

aribisala0:

more importantly the actual TOWN  centre is Not on IKwerre land.

That's not very important actually, because there are other cities whose exact point of foundation are not where the main town is found. Diobu is barely a mile from the town itself. Plus you've already claimed other Ikwere lands made up Port Harcourt, so where is town coming into all this?

aribisala0:

neither is the port it is NOT in Diobu . i repeat the port is NOT in Diobu, the railway terminal is a different matter

So where is the port?

I wouldn't call it a disagreement. You were under this assumption that Iguocha was a settlement, and I informed you that it wasn't. Instead it was part of Diobu farmland area, which the British acquired for the building of P.H. I stated all of that (all true by the way) only for you to turn and tell me (in your own words) "you may be right on the other hand you could be wrong". . . . . Seriously

Anyway, all of that said, I do not get what the difficulty is in understanding the simple statement that "PH is referred to as Iguocha".

ezeagu:

You'll never hear Igwe Ocha because it's not the name of any village or clan. It was used by mostly Ohafia migrant railway workers from Iguocha (Ugwu ocha in standard Igbo). The village group Port Harcourt grew out of (and then absorbed more Ikwerre and then Okrika lands) is Diobu, which is Ikwerre. Ugwu ocha is not controversial, are you saying this because it 'sounds' Igbo? If it's controversial then it's only controversial in the sense that someone is trying to rewrite their own history, as in cutting off the nose to . . . blah blah.

The "Igbo writers" who you suggest are tinkering with PH's history to support their claims must also include Frederick Lugard who in the 191-something explicitly referred to the port (not yet Port Harcourt) as "Iguocha" and "Diobu" in his letter to the Harcourt guy himself announcing his intention to use his name for the port of "Diobu". Look for the letter. Last time I checked there were no top Igbo officials in the British administration of Nigeria in the 1910s.

On the note of "riverside ares of PH", you do know there are rivers winding through and around Port Harcourt from all sides? The New Kalabar river that you're probably specifically referring to (the route to the wharf) winds westward and then northwards straight into Igbo lands. If you're saying the wharf is not Igboland then you may be correct (although I don't know the exact boundaries) but to say all the rivers in Port Harcourt are confined to Okrika areas is incorrect.

On the wider not: Ikwerre are Igbo today and tomorrow and will always be looked as Igbo by the Igbo AND other Nigerians, even by the government of Nigeria. No amount of disassociating is going to make people stop regarding them as Igbo, I'm sure even yourself deep-down see them as Igbo. The rest of Nigeria does not respect Igbo people in general and generally believe they 'don't have a culture', they'll respect any Igbo less with a surname like Amadi disclaiming Igbo. In short the whole argument is pointless, some Ikwerre people are denying that they are Igbo and that's the conclusion.

regarding your source of lugards letter i have decided to admit it  without dispute for argument's sake

it was a proposal and tells us nothing of what happened thereafter.
one can only hypothesize on what basis lugard wrote this letter as w
mind you lugard did not visit PH . my guess  based on what i know of PH history is that this letter might have been written by Mr HARCOURT  to lugard
whoever it was that wrote it only reflects  information  they were  given

but it does not make your argument about iguocha


the railway terminus in port harcourt and the port are several miles apart. if you know PH at all which it is clear you don't you will NOT say the port is in diobu if
we are talking of a new town  built on the port  then we must be talking of  the OLD GRA where the white people lived and ran there government,built a post office and also the OLD port harcourt town this land is diputed between okrikas and Ikwerres in some parts but certainly some part is okrika/ijaw
what is important is that the ikwerres involved in this dispute are OGBUNABALI who are VERY different from diobu which is a place that was full of shops mostly non indigene igbo and  not the seat of government which was closer to Ogbunabali and Borokiri.
as such port harcourt developed from rebisi borokiri ogbunabali and diobu is a more accurate representation,

i am not aware of these cliffs and can only assume they were destroyed or never existed

Where does the railway terminate? As in district, road.

ChinenyeN:

I wouldn't call it a disagreement. You were under this assumption that Iguocha was a settlement, and I informed you that it wasn't. Instead it was part of Diobu farmland area, which the British acquired for the building of P.H. I stated all of that (all true by the way) only for you to turn and tell me (in your own words) "you may be right on the other hand you could be wrong". . . . . Seriously

Anyway, all of that said, I do not get what the difficulty is in understanding the simple statement that "PH is referred to as Iguocha".

chinenye trust me i know enough about PH and was not under any impression.

i think i have lived in the UK for too long. you could be wrong or right is a way of saying i don't agree with you at all.
i was being polite and trying to get you to express your view. still i saw no need to quarrel
i did not agree with it but i saw you believed it strongly. i have no intention of changing your mind it was clear to me then that you do not really know the town as much as me. i lived there immediately after the civil war for 20 years, sorry to keep saying that and i know the mood of the city in those days and how things developed. i also know how small it was and how it has grown and i am very passionate about the town.

ezeagu:

Where does the railway terminate? As in district, road.

the rail terminus i know ended in DIOBU

I know nothing about the town P.H., but I know about Ngwa and Ikwere oral traditions regarding Obio area, and they mention Iguocha, which was simply an area in those days. Now though, the term "Iguocha" has become more inclusive/expansive, referencing P.H. itself.

[quote="ChinenyeN"]Must we seriously rehash this issue over and over and over again? The fact of the matter is that Port Harcourt developed largely from farmlands owned by the coastal town of Diobu as well as some fishing settlements of Borokiri Okrika. The term 'Iguocha' is just a name used to describe that whole coastal area/zone. It is not a settlement, just part of Diobu land. I don't understand what the difficulty is in understanding this, and why people must continue harping on this actually non-existent boundary issue (non-existent, because the actual people concerned aren't even having this discussion; its always got to be an outsider trying to contest this topic).[/quote]

Here is the man who connived with some Riverine people to create Ikwerre ethnic group for his selfish political reasons.It is for the free minds to read and comprehend.Everything is there from how he helped create Rivers State to how he defected to Federal side during the war.

TRIBUTE:Exit Of A Legendary Champion: Eze Oriji

By Prince Ike Ogbuehi

I think with this demise, the curtains have finally closed to four legendary champions, respected senior elder statesmen and the titans of the struggle for the creation of old Rivers State in 1967. The other titans of blessed memories are the late Chief Harold Dappa-Biriye, late Chief G. K. J. Amachree and late Chief Wenike Briggs.

The story of the immense contributions and involvement of Eze Oriji in the struggle for the creation of Rivers State was told by late Chief Dappa-Biriye in 1998. the executive member of the Rivers State Community, Abuja had paid him a visit in his hotel room in Abuja. He was with his personal assistant, Mr. Young Ayotamuno. On realizing that I am from Emohua upon my introduction, he enquired about Eze Oriji. He said that he was a great man and that he made the creation of Rivers State possible.

He said every effort made for the creation of Rivers State was rebuffed by General Yakubu Gowon, the then Head of State on the ground that Rivers State was covered with waters and that there was nowhere to site the capital since Port Harcourt belongs to the Ibos. He said it was at that point that Eze Oriji stood up and said that he was from Ikwerre and that Port Harcourt belongs to Ikwerre and that Ikwerres are not Ibos. He then pleaded that the capital of the new state be sited in Port Harcourt. He said it was on that assurance that Rivers State was created with Port Harcourt as capital city in 1967 by General Yakubu Gowon.

As a result of his efforts towards the creation of Rivers State and his dislike of the Ibos over the marginalization of Ikwerre people, he suffered series of arrests and detentions in the hands of Biafran soldiers. His house in Emohua was burnt down by the Biafran rebels. He deflected to the federal side as he escaped from one of his series of detentions. He fought gallantly on the side of the Federal Government for the liberation of Rivers State. He, late Chief Francis Beke, his late younger brother, Mr. Afoma Oriji guided and led the Federal troops through many foot paths in Port Harcourt and other Ikwerre areas to round up and capture the Biafran soldiers. His earlier deflection to the Federal side saved the Ikwerres and indeed Rivers people from the planned elimination by the rebel soldiers. Nigeria soldiers entered Ikwerre land peacefully without much damage.

Also, as the war approached to Emohua, he sent message across to my late father and paramount ruler of Oduoha-Emohua, Eze Wali Ogbuehi who reigned from 1957 to 1983 to remain at home and that he had given a firm directive to Nigerian soldiers to deal kindly with him and his subjects. We then circled around the paramount ruler until they arrived with bags of rice, stockfish, and other gifts. Thereafter, he sent town criers to those who were in the bush to return home, and they did. This singular act endeared him to us.

Later, himself and late Chief Dappa-Biriye were invited by the Federal Government to serve at the federal level. They opted to remain in the state to build the new state. Thus, in 1969, he was appointed the Commissioner of Education, and became one of the pioneer members of the Rivers State Executive Council under the military governorship of the then Commander, AP Diete-Spiff.

It was under his tenure as a commissioner for education that the Rivers State College of Science and Technology was established and now upgraded and known as the University of Science and Technology, Nkpolu, Port Harcourt.

A no-nonsense man, Eze Oriji would at the slightest provocation slap you or use his walking stick to knock your head, though that was during his youthful days. One, he slapped a white man at a time whites were lords in Nigeria and his scholarship was withdrawn and revoked as a punishment by the colonial authority. He took private study with London University and made LLB. Two, during the commissioning of the Choba-Emohua bridge in the '70s, a non-Ikwerre commissioner stood up to libate, Eze Oriji politely excused the drink from him, saying that it is a taboo in Ikwerre custom for non-Ikwerre person to pour drink to our land and our ancestors. Three, each time Ikwerre women carried their garri to the markets to sell to Kalabari women, Kalabari women will grab the cups and measure the garri by themselves to the displeasure of the Ikwerre women. When the story got to Eze Oriji, he sent town criers to all Ikwerre markets to put a stop to it, and it was so, till date. Four, he authorized that Ikwerre language should be the official language in all Ogbakor Ikwerre meetings.


independentmonitorng.com/contents/en-us/d1118.html

actually most of my friends are ikwerre and i am always teasing them that they are igbo.
i think the way so many non ikwerre igbos go about this issue only alienates them further.
one characteristic i observed among the ikwerre is they lack the industry the other igbos are noted for. in fact many don't leave their clans and i suspect they were not able to compete with other igbos in the early days of PH.

AS FAR AS THE IKWERRES ARE CONCERNED IGBOS ARE OUTSIDERS TOO as they demonstrated during the abandoned property debacle
in that respect they are quite different

i have never heard an ikwerre man use the word Iguocha. NEVER. it is only igbos from elsewhere who seem very deta-mined to apply this label

Man I have dated an Ikwerre chick and till today they still know they are Igbo and don't deny it. Even our Igbo church have Ikwerre ppl. UGH!!! I'm so sick of outsiders coming here to talk trash. This crap in common in many places. Ppl distort facts for selfish gains. I remember when Amaobia ppl fought to be autonomous from Awka yet they spoke same dialect.
Isoko ppl don't claim to be Urhobo but we all know Urhobo and Isoko are same ppl but ofcourse also different. If Ikwerre is a language then Ngwa, Awka, Ndoni, Arochukwu, Ika, should be regarded as distinct languages. What nonsense be dis?

aribisala0:

actually most of my friends are ikwerre and i am always teasing them that they are igbo.
i think the way so many non ikwerre igbos go about this issue only alienates them further.
one characteristic i observed among the ikwerre is they lack the industry the other igbos are noted for. in fact many don't leave their clans and i suspect they were not able to compete with other igbos in the early days of PH.

in that respect they are quite different

Those differences exist in every city area.If you go to Aba you will notice same of Ngwa,When you visit Owerri,the same is said of the natives.You move further down to Onitsha,the story remains same.The truth is that there are some particular clans/sub groups of Igbos that developed the high sense of competition and they seem to be mostly the Isu(Isoma) and Nri/Awka and the area around Arochukwu,Bende,Ohafia axis.They are the most populated area and are the ones mostly found in other peoples land.The same way Ikwerres feel cheated by them is the same every where across Igbo land.

i have dated and lived with many who don't share that view.
one even to the point of violence(funny her name is chinyere)
let us leave that yarn

aribisala0:

i have dated and lived with many who don't share that view.
one even to the point of violence(funny her name is chinyere)
let us leave that yarn

Was going to say the same.Udezue is far away in Canada.An Ikwerre in Canada will gladly claim Igbo for obvious reasons.When you are far away from home, anyone from near home becomes brother.

The new generation of Ikwerres born after 1980 have developed a sense of distinctness which was passed down by their parents.Only the older generation know the truth and believe me they are highly worried.I have spoken with a lot of them on the issue and they said they did not expect it to go this far.All they wanted was a freedom to run their affairs and not out right denial of being Igbo,

My Mum is from Ikwerre while all my Mum's Sisters are married to upland Igbos,her brothers are married to Igbos too.

@Abagworo, I also know two Ikwerre gals that denied being Igbo. One even said "Ndaa" to me and I was like "a di mu nma" "so I understand u". Its funny how the other 1 feels that way but dates just upperland Igbo dudes. Babe even claimed her papa wey be Yoruba no like Igbo ppl and I come laugh tire.

Now the truth is bitter when one is lying to himself. Lying about your undisputed origin would not change the way your neighbors perceive you but will make the view you as a sell out.

The Ikwerre is of diverse origin like almost all Igbo groups but have an Aro founder as the pillar of the ethnic group. Most stories tell of Okpo Nwagidi from Arochukwu as the father of Ikwerre. He was a custodian of the Amadioha or Kamalu in Ozuzu(Etche) before moving down to Isiokpo with his entourage.

There is every evidence from lingual to oral tradition to physical. Many people from Isu,Ngwa,Etche,Ekpeye and Okrika helped swell the Ikwerre population. Etche was an older settlement to Ikwerre as people were already living there when Aros came to establish their shrine.

na by force dem say dem no do

aribisala0:

na by force dem say dem no do

Worse than those Yorubas who are angry about kwarans, even in their mode of dressings as well the caps they put on their heads.