@afam if you must mention my name then please be intelligent!
what have i been saying all along?
read and comprehend. it is not for me to make claims on anyone's behalf when they can do a better job for me. you tell those who want to igbofy them at gunpoint to back off NOT ME

aribisala0:

it really does NOT matter whether their claims are true or NOT. frankly it is irrelevant . there are many who claim their ancestors came from the sky.
what matters is that today they want to be called Ikwerre

Yes, you're right. Same way Ngwa people want to be seen as Ngwa. But as a whole they're Igbo.

If you ask someone his ethnicity and he says "Ijebu". Won't you use your common sense to know that he's Yoruba.

please do not reason like a child and do not patronize me with the term common sense. did ijebu ask Nigeria to recognize them in the Nigerian constitution? NO
the IKWERRE did that. if you do not know find out??

on the one hand you say do not force ethnicity then you say if someone tells you he is A you use common sense to deduce he is B. Funny

"They decided they would rather have an ikwerre bible"

You are a real yoruba man,as cunny as you can be. Now get it into your head,ikwerre are not the only igbo groups who got the bible translated to their language,izzi people did the same.

There are lexicostatistal studies that shows that while igbo and ikwerre are mutually intelligible to an extent they are both distinct language.

This is what happens when someone dives into an issue he knows next to nothing about,what igbo language are you comparing ikwerre with? The written igbo language is nobody's language,its not spoken by any igbo town as its language,rather it was an artificial creation,created by picking words from different dialects to create a mutually inteligible language for all igbo tribes. So you can't compare igbo with ikwerre,you can only compare ikwerre dialect with aro,ngwa,owerri,idemili,etc, dialects.
Oh! Can you post the link to the 'lexicostatistial studies you were talking about.

please if you you do not want us to start abusing each other do not talk about me or my yoruba-ness at any rate I personally do not consider myself to be yoruba but that is another day's discussion.
agree or disagree with my reasoning and I promise i will be very respectful.
Must discussions become personal?

or must you insult yorubas because of me. i do not insult ethnic groups and won't accept that from you.
focus on the issues

i already posted the link it is in the report commissioned by the Ikwerre Development Association
you do not know me and know nothing about the limits of my knowledge so how you deduce i know next to nothing about it is a mystery.
ad hominem arguments are the easiest and least productive

Why are you guys responding to someone who's not even Ikwerre? It's obvious he has no knowledge of what he's talking of.

Pls do not dignify his moronic comments here by replying them.

mbatuku2:

Why are you guys responding to someone who's not even Ikwerre? It's obvious he has no knowledge of what he's talking of.

Pls do not dignify his moronic comments here by replying them.

mbatuku your mother is a M0R0N and will die from cancer

aribisala0:

mbatuku your mother is a slowpoke and will die from cancer

Hey, watch your tongue or you may face ban.

ARE YOU STUPID? I NEVER ABUSE FIRST BUT ALWAY REPAY WITH WORSE
who started name calling? TELL THEM TO WATCH THEIR LANGUAGE

aribisala0:

ARE YOU silly? I NEVER ABUSE FIRST BUT ALWAY REPAY WITH WORSE
who started name calling? TELL THEM TO WATCH THEIR LANGUAGE

If you must. I mean if you must take jabs at him, don't bring his parents into it.

THAT IS FOR YOU
FOR ME DO NOT INSULT ME
IF YOU DO YOUR WHOLE FAMILY ARE FAIR GAME SO DO NOT START

once again
i do not insult anyone
do not insult me
if you do i wish death to you ,your mother,father and children so be warned!!!

Aribisala, with your level of intelligence and common sense, I would have imagined that you would, without difficulty, have learned to examine things from multiple perspectives, as well as putting yourself in the shoes of those in contention (that is, if you hold a neutral stance), but I'm not seeing any of that. I'm not saying any of this to offend you, I hope you understand.

Yes, the Ikwere issue is about recognition as distinct. That's no problem. I completely understand that. After all, in 1915 (while still under British/Colonial rule), Ngwa [my people] specifically and consistently demanded for a separate state from the rest of the people in Nigeria (Igbo included). Even, In 1955 the official stance by Ngwa people was that we constitute a single cultural, territorial and political unit. Even up until this very day, Ngwa still views itself as a distinct people, with a distinct vernacular (many Ngwa people in fact do not call Ngwa a dialect, but a language), a distinct territory and a distinct society (we have our own indigenous constitution, among other things). So I understand completely. In fact, I'm sure most people understand Ikwere's endeavor to be recognized as distinct.

BUT. . there are and will always remain two sides to every story.

In this endeavor for recognition, the Ikwere did the one thing they need not do; they lied. That is where the problem is. They lied about definite and acknowledged historical and ancestral links. No one has an issue with Ikwere and their endeavor for distinction, because most people either understand it or just don't think much of it. Ikwere should feel free to endeavor for recognition. . but they don't have to make up lies [i.e. Benin migration] just because of it. If this Ikwere issue is not one of origin but of recognition, then Ikwere should have had no reason to fabricate stories of origin. There will be no need to lie, saying that Ochichi and Akalaka were half-brothers [for the record; Ngwa and Etche both know where Ochichi came from]. If this Ikwere issue is not one of origin but of recognition, then there would have been no need to systematically change all the "umu" settlement names to "rumu", among a continuing list of other things.

That is why there is contention. I would have imagined that you, would have picked up on that, without difficulty.

No one has an issue with Ikwere wanting to be recognized as distinct, but it doesn't mean that people are okay with them lying just to pursue such recognition. I hope you understand what I'm saying here. Can you see this situation from the eyes of the two 'parties' involved?

aribisala0:

please if you you do not want us to start abusing each other do not talk about me or my yoruba-ness at any rate I personally do not consider myself to be yoruba but that is another day's discussion.
agree or disagree with my reasoning and I promise i will be very respectful.
Must discussions become personal?

or must you insult yorubas because of me. i do not insult ethnic groups and won't accept that from you.
focus on the issues

i already posted the link it is in the report commissioned by the Ikwerre Development Association
you do not know me and know nothing about the limits of my knowledge so how you deduce i know next to nothing about it is a mystery.
ad hominem arguments are the easiest and least productive

I will like to believe that you know little or nothing about this whole issue because from what you wrote earlier on, your judgement is based on what you heard on the streets while in Port Harcourt. That's the reason why you ignorantly wrote that Oyigbo is Ikwerre. Many of the people that occupy Port harcourt Township are not real Ikwerres but Ngwa,Nkwerre,Umuahia and Mbaise people who took on free land and turned to Ikwerre. Even the so called Okrika area of Amadiama down to Abuloma are the same people. The real people know this.They call the real Ikwerre people "Azumba" which means kind of backyard people.

ChinenyeN:

Aribisala, with your level of intelligence and common sense, I would have imagined that you would, without difficulty, have learned to examine things from multiple perspectives, as well as putting yourself in the shoes of those in contention (that is, if you hold a neutral stance), but I'm not seeing any of that. I'm not saying any of this to offend you, I hope you understand.

Yes, the Ikwere issue is about recognition as distinct. That's no problem. I completely understand that. After all, in 1915 (while still under British/Colonial rule), Ngwa [my people] specifically and consistently demanded for a separate state from the rest of the people in Nigeria (Igbo included). Even, In 1955 the official stance by Ngwa people was that we constitute a single cultural, territorial and political unit. Even up until this very day, Ngwa still views itself as a distinct people, with a distinct vernacular (many Ngwa people in fact do not call Ngwa a dialect, but a language), a distinct territory and a distinct society (we have our own indigenous constitution, among other things). So I understand completely. In fact, I'm sure most people understand Ikwere's endeavor to be recognized as distinct.

BUT. . there are and will always remain two sides to every story.

In this endeavor for recognition, the Ikwere did the one thing they need not do; they lied. That is where the problem is. They lied about definite and acknowledged historical and ancestral links. No one has an issue with Ikwere and their endeavor for distinction, because most people either understand it or just don't think much of it. Ikwere should feel free to endeavor for recognition. . but they don't have to make up lies [i.e. Benin migration] just because of it. If this Ikwere issue is not one of origin but of recognition, then Ikwere should have had no reason to fabricate stories of origin. There will be no need to lie, saying that Ochichi and Akalaka were half-brothers [for the record; Ngwa and Etche both know where Ochichi came from]. If this Ikwere issue is not one of origin but of recognition, then there would have been no need to systematically change all the "umu" settlement names to "rumu", among a continuing list of other things.

That is why there is contention. I would have imagined that you, would have picked up on that, without difficulty.

No one has an issue with Ikwere wanting to be recognized as distinct, but it doesn't mean that people are okay with them lying just to pursue such recognition. I hope you understand what I'm saying here. Can you see this situation from the eyes of the two 'parties' involved?

firstly clarify you are NOT seeing what ,Intelligence common sense or holding a neutral stance??
secondly if YOU follow the thread of what i am saying it will be clear to me that I hold just ONE position
what is TRUTH  I do not know regarding the history though i have read so many versions since i learnt how to read complex sentences  some 35 years ago. No one has monopoly on truth and it is clear to me that such "truth" questions will never be realised as such I do not take a position on "TRUTH" regarding the origins of Ikwerre people. However it is clear to me that for you to say they "lied" is an opinionated assertion which at best is controverstial and at worst, well it would not be polite to say.
Anyhow none of the foregoing is relevant to the point I am making which is singular and cannot me mistaken for anything else.

i will state it again in Clearer terms;
If there is DNA and archaelogical evidence to prove that ALL Iwuruohas(as they like to be called) are descendant of A from the towm of Mgbidi in the heart of IGBOLAND and they say they are not igbo THEN THEY ARE NOT.
My position does not go beyond that and so where neutrality or a lack thereof comes into it is for me confusing. Just to be clear  I hope you understand what my point is

as far as neutrality goes all i can acknowledge is that there are several accounts and there is no objective reason why one should subordinate others and so i do not and cannot accept that A or B lied or did not as you claim .
my position is
I do not and CANNOT know BUT it is not really relevant to choices that people make now

Abagworo:

SE Igbos do not even behave alike. My point is that you cannot impose ethnicity on anyone even if no single difference exists. It is a thing of choice. Ezza and Izzi which is more deviated prefer being Igbos while Ikwerre which has little or no difference prefer being Ikwerre.

What I was actually getting at is the point you made in your post that I replied to about why you think Ikwerre people should be a distinct ethnic group based on how they view themselves.

What are these grounds?

Abagworo:

I will like to believe that you know little or nothing about this whole issue because from what you wrote earlier on, your judgement is based on what you heard on the streets while in Port Harcourt. That's the reason why you ignorantly wrote that Oyigbo is Ikwerre. Many of the people that occupy Port harcourt Township are not real Ikwerres but Ngwa,Nkwerre,Umuahia and Mbaise people who took on free land and turned to Ikwerre. Even the so called Okrika area of Amadiama down to Abuloma are the same people. The real people know this.They call the real Ikwerre people "Azumba" which means kind of backyard people.

please be careful about polemic .
did I write that Oyigbo is Ikwerre??
NOT possible read and COMPREHEND
at an earlier point on this same thread  I have already said it was not. Don't MISQUOTE ME. feel free to show where i said Oyigbo/Obigbo is Ikwerre
i really would rather not discuss with you if you cannot avoid throwing around words like ignorant.it tends to bring out the worst in me and might upset other readers.
please be civil

I understand what you're saying. You stated that your position does not extend into talks of origin, etc. etc. which you made clear from the beginning, and I understand that. But my question is not about YOUR position, but rather about whether or not you at all understand OUR position, because other than you (and quite possibly mbatuku or any others I may have missed), no one here is actually arguing Ikwere's desire to be recognized as distinct.

when you say our who is we?
i understand what you Chinenye are saying.
it is NOT the same as what some others are saying.
so, yes I understand your position regarding history but you have no evidence that can convince a "neutral" person that you are right and others are wrong so if you are fair you will admit that indeed my position is neutral i.e. "the truth remains to be proven one day hopefully"

also out of interest is there an Ngwa Bible?

aribisala0:

so, yes I understand your position regarding history

Thank you. That is what I want to know. Also, I hope I haven't led you to misunderstand my position, because as of now, this currently isn't about who is right and who is wrong (in terms of history). It is simply an expression of dissatisfaction and nonacceptance of what I perceive as unnecessary and disingenuous.

aribisala0:

also out of interest is there an Ngwa Bible?

As of now, I know that there is an Ngwa dictionary, and an Ngwa grammar and syntax book (all the works of Ngwa indigenes). I've heard talks about an Ngwa Bible, but I haven't seen it yet. I guess that is still being worked on.

i wonder why the Ikwerre felt so strongly about NOT wanting the Igbo bible and writing theirs

ChinenyeN:

Thank you. That is what I want to know. Also, I hope I haven't led you to misunderstand my position, because as of now, this currently isn't about who is right and who is wrong (in terms of history). It is simply an expression of dissatisfaction and nonacceptance of what I perceive as unnecessary and disingenuous.
As of now, I know that there is an Ngwa dictionary, and an Ngwa grammar and syntax book (all the works of Ngwa indigenes). I've heard talks about an Ngwa Bible, but I haven't seen it yet. I guess that is still being worked on.

well it is not clear what you mean by unnecessary and disingenuous
the claims being made on the one side or the fact that i dare to present an alternative and uncomfortable viewpoint.?
i guess you would have your preferred narrative to prevail unchallenged. if you want your narrative to prevail let it do so on merit not by the BULLYING BLUSTER that some are employing here

aribisala0:

i wonder why the Ikwerre felt so strongly about NOT wanting the Igbo bible and writing theirs

well it is not clear what you mean by unnecessary and disingenuous
the claims being made on the one side or the fact that i dare to present an alternative and uncomfortable viewpoint.?
i guess you would have your preferred narrative to prevail unchallenged. if you want your narrative to prevail let it do so on merit not by the BULLYING BLUSTER that some are employing here

I cant help but notice how much you sound like Negro NTNS

well i am not likely to notice you unless you say something meaningful.

any chance of that

aribisala0:

well i am not likely to notice you unless you say something meaningful.

any chance of that

Thanks Negro NTNS. You cease to put your nose in Igbo business/affairs. Go worry and uplift your people and stop worry about whats going on in our house.

didn't think so

aribisala0:

well it is not clear what you mean by unnecessary and disingenuous

ChinenyeN:

If this Ikwere issue is not one of origin but of recognition, then there would have been no need to systematically change all the "umu" settlement names to "rumu", among a continuing list of other things.

[center]____________________________________________________________[/center]

aribisala0:

the claims being made on the one side or the fact that i dare to present an alternative  and uncomfortable viewpoint.?

ChinenyeN:

Also, I hope I haven't led you to misunderstand my position, because as of now, this currently isn't about who is right and who is wrong (in terms of history).

[center]____________________________________________________________[/center]

aribisala0:

i guess you would have your preferred narrative to prevail unchallenged. if you want your narrative to prevail let it do so on merit not by the BULLYING BLUSTER that some are employing here

Don't assume things with me, especially since I never came here to discuss narratives.

@aribisala
I just came across an Ikwerre group that refers to PH as Iguocha. I though you said it's Igbos that formulated that word. Here it is: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=32237916657&v=info

ChinenyeN:


[center]____________________________________________________________[/center]

[center]____________________________________________________________[/center]

Don't assume things with me, especially since I never came here to discuss narratives.

well it is your opinion that the names were systematically changed. if you want to be fair and not prejudiced have you heard the explanation given.?? or do you not want to hear? it is widely published. the bottomline is you have your opinion and there are others
yours is just one of several in the market of opinions. you assert yours with authority "they lied" without evidence or should we just accept it as WORD from Mount Sinai on tablets of Godly Stone
If it is not about who is right or wrong do not say they lied about events which are hotly disputed and for which you have no evidence other than "oral tradition" of Ngwa as you have said previously.

I assume nothing everything I say is implicit in your arguments.
you did not answer my original question about whether it was Intelligence,Neutrality or Common sense in which I am deficient .
Whatever it is please show with examples what you are talking about.

What is clear is you believe a certain version of events and are really intolerant of dissent.
Unfortunately you are unable to advance your beliefs in a coherent and credible way. To say "they lied" seems petulant when you show no proof!

afam4eva:

@aribisala
I just came across an Ikwerre group that refers to PH as Iguocha. I though you said it's Igbos that formulated that word. Here it is: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=32237916657&v=info

you have an unfortunate habit of misattributing words to me.
you said above that i said Oyigbo is Ikwerre.
I asked you to show it and you kept quiet
i really do not know whether this is is due to aphasia or some other problems.

I personally have never come across Ikwerre people using that term. If they do exist it is news to me BUT I personally have heard the term mostly from Igbo people only online and even then different people cite Igweocha and Iguocha giving different explanations. Whatever the case Iguocha cannot refer to Port Harcourt as anyone familiar with the place will know but at best a small part  of a small part thereof most likely  IN Diobu.
Of course Diobu was NOT part of the Area where the British built the Port and Administrative facilities that is known to this day by natives as "TOWN"

I have looked at the facebook link. I will NOT comment other neutral people can look at it and make up their minds about how much of a buttress it is to anything

I've met Ikwere people who, the instant I mentioned I am Ngwa, recognized me as 'wenne zi nu mba'. Likewise, I have met Ikwere people who, the moment I said I am Ngwa, have given me the contemptuous 'Nye Igbo' response. Regardless though, Ikwere traditions even acknowledge close ties with Ngwa, which Etche traditions affirm. So when I say 'they lied', I am not talking about MY narratives. I'm talking about theirs, and what their ancestors passed down to them. I never told them to say it. But like I said earlier, I didn't come here to discuss narratives. I only came to see if you understood my position; my dissatisfaction and nonacceptance. You said you did, and you and I are also on the same page regarding the issue of recognition. So there's nothing left for us to discuss, since anything else would be nothing more than repetition. And we aren't here to argue, repeat or convince each other of anything; only to understand and to be understood.