Guy if you have nothing else to do with your do not talk.
this total crap defending a thief!
this world don spoil, shame don die!

You people shouldnt bother yourselfs with Pro01, he is a fully paid-up Ibori ass-licker. Absolute deadender.

I have met people who went to Uni-Ben with Ibori, and they confirm that he was a Big Thief right from there. I Know Ibori well enuff to tell you that his father was an Ambulance driver for one of the General Hospitals in old Bendel state. So he didnt actually fall off a wealthy family.

Ibori has been convicted for Theft in the UK. FACT, ABSOLUTE FACT. His wife Nkoyo was a cashier at the DIY store they both stole from. FACT.

@ Deep Sight

Since you have somewhat disproved my earlier conviction that you belong to that misfortunate 'confederacy' that employs only vulgar methods to espouse their opinions, and having giving a hint that you are a member of the higher order, I will endure the inconvenience of repeating my main points again - in response to your post. I do this, however, with the presumption that you are intelligent enough to realise the following:

1. I am entitled to my opinions; opinions which, in my own enlightened judgment are profound and deeper than the surface. You don’t have to agree with my views.
2. Consequent on the above, you may choose to agree with me that I do not have any ties whatsoever with Ibori and have never been a beneficiary of whatever funds he is purported to have acquired.
3. It is exceedingly easy for anyone, including me, to echo the prevailing mass anti-Ibori sentiments; blindly following the majority is any situation is always the least mentally tasking option, a fact that will of course appeal to the mob. The fact that I choose to toe a different, more fundamental line from the majority does not perforce invalidate my opinions.

Having agreed (I hope) on all of the above, let me take the pains to repeat my views as coherently as possible.

Deep Sight:

I positively DEMAND of you that you state to me -

1. Why such a process should be halted

2. Whether the motives behind such a process are of any consequence whatsoever

3. Whether it is apposite to lament such a process for the particular reason that a similar process has not been commenced against EVERY KNOWN criminal.

1. I never asked for the process (of arrest) to be halted! I questioned the methods/heavy-handedness/unprecedented resources deployed for his case, as well as the obvious selectivity . . . in other words what made his PARTICULAR case so special!

2. The motives behind the process are of the greatest consequence imaginable! The motive for arresting and prosecuting a suspect should STRICTLY be to bring him to justice for his crime(s). Any other motive behind this makes the process a sham, and more importantly, UNSUSTAINABLE and INEFFECTIVE.

3. You are 100% correct that I lament such a process; but 100% wrong that I do so because a similar process has not commenced against EVERY CRIMINAL. This misconception is of particular interest to me because it has been repeated too often (rather maliciously I believe) by the vulgar NL masses that disagree with my views on this thread, and an untruth repeated too often assumes the status of truth. I assume that you are better equipped than most, and as such can think in ‘3D’, so I will clarify this for the umpteenth time: I realise that EVERY criminal can’t be CAUGHT/IDENTIFIED (I use these two words very advisedly); no country’s law enforcement will ever be foolproof enough to be 100% efficient as to catch/identify every criminal. However, every serious country makes the most of the natural limitations of law enforcement. How? EVERY CAUGHT/IDENTIFIED criminal MUST be prosecuted using same standards designated for particular crimes.

Deep Sight:

- Thus suggesting very clearly that you do not regard official corruption to be as grave as “mass murder or terrorism.”

You are absolutely correct. I, as Mazi Pro01, do not regard corruption to be as grave as mass murder and terrorism (in other words, I’d rather dine with the ghost of Mobutu Sese Seko than that of Adolf Hitler; and the USA would release all the fraudsters in its prisons if that will guarantee them Osama Bin Laden’s Head, for instance). No crime is worse than premeditated killing of innocent people. Having clarified that, I must point out that my opinion is of little consequence. What is of absolute consequence is the opinion of the law. And you may wish to learn that the opinion of the law (in Nigeria) happens to coincide with my opinion, which is that money laundering is not as grave an offence as murder. That is why the former is bail-able and the latter not; that is why the maximum sentence for the former is less than ten years (concurrently, in the event of multiple count charges) and the latter death sentence. You may also be willing to note that the extent of force for arrests, and punishments the law stipulates for money laundering offences (which is the charge against Ibori) is manifestly clear. The law does not allow the use maximum force (i.e. deadly firearms possibly leading to death of the suspect) in non-violent crimes such as money laundering. I would be disappointed if, like the shallow masses, you think I am trying to condone or justify money laundering or corruption. I am willing to assume that you know better – that I am merely pointing out the facts as they are – according to the extant legal framework.

Deep Sight:


- I need to ram the point forcefully home that official corruption kills a great many more people than terrorists or serial killers are capable of in their entire lives.

- Every neglected road which spawns fatal accidents, the thousands of needless deaths at ill-equipped hospitals, the numerous fire-incidents resulting from the use of alternative power on account of a dilapidated power infrastructure – all of these are clear and direct results of official corruption and I am aghast that you do not realize that such corruption therefore leads very directly to the untimely death of an unquantifiable number of people

- I am thus eminently offended, nay outraged, on behalf of the millions of souls who have been victims of this systemic abuse, that you regard such as being less grave than murder, and worse – that you denounce the application of state force to effect the arrest of a person resisting arrest regarding charges of such murderous official corruption.

You have tried, very laboriously, to establish the correlation between corruption and mass-murder, and how/why the former is tantamount to the latter. It is not my immediate concern to dispute your analogy and claims. I acknowledge the plight of the beleaguered masses that, as you have said, have died and continue to die from the lethal effects of corruption. However, let me introduce a point of departure that all of you may deem to be politically incorrect: I DO NOT PITY THEM. I am unabashedly amoral – learning from the thoroughly practical Robert Greene school of thought. In a previous post, I quoted Joseph De Maistre as saying that “every country has the government it deserves”. The import of this great quote in the instant case is two-fold: (1) the so-called masses may do the same or even worse than the much maligned leaders if they find themselves at the helm of affairs, after all the leadership is a microcosm and representation of the larger society. (2) More importantly, the preposterous docility and cowardice of the masses in failing to exert real pressure (via civil disobedience, uprising, revolution, etc) on successive governments is the MAJOR reason why corruption continues to thrive even in the midst of excruciating poverty. Everybody is too scared to take the leap of faith and is always content with tokenisms. The cowardly masses have been pushed to the wall, rather than fight back like the proverbial longsuffering goat, they break the wall and run even farther.

Deep Sight:


I certainly hope that you realize, as you have already been told on this thread, that the apt thing to do is to rally around for the arrest and prosecution of all the others who you have mentioned AS WELL.

This is where I have a problem with all of you – especially the educated and ‘enlightened’ segment of the masses. Your idea of “rallying around” for the onset of a fair and effective war on corruption is a terribly pathetic combination of cowardice and hypocrisy – the result of which is a lot of empty huff and puff with very little results. This is where I differ, if you take the pains to read between the lines of my previous posts. We need to institutionalise processes of running government and instil a positive fear in the minds of all and sundry – that if you are corrupt you might get caught, and if you get caught, you SHALL be punished. This institutional predictability is the only thing that a discerning thinker like me can “rally around” for, not mere side-shows, selectivity and delusory stratagems intended to promote a false notion of progress. Please try to get this. The present system will NEVER get us to the point where the anti-corruption war is on auto-pilot as is the case saner societies, let this sink in. There will be endless motion without movement; ONLY drastic steps can nudge us out of this drudgery. In simple terms, my friend, WE NEED A REVOLUTION, NOTHING LESS. Only that would earn my applause.

Deep Sight:


It is rather appalling that you would question the non-arrest of these persons, and lo and behold – when one of their ilk – Ibori – is arrested, you scream blue murder?

Let me put you out of your misery. There is more than a whiff of personal vendetta involved. There is a whole ship-load of it.

Question is – SO WHAT?

I am bemused by the lack of ‘colour’ in your reasoning. Issues are never in black and white, so it is tragically hilarious to so flippantly decolorize matters that require utmost circumspection and holistic appraisal in order to devise effective and lasting solutions. A man has acute Typhoid fever and he keeps taking paracetamol to provide momentary (semblance of) relief; the whole family keeps ‘nourishing’ him with different brands of the same paracetamol believing that it would engender gradual recovery. However one ‘black sheep’ of a child is unimpressed by the window-dressing, and screams at them to get daddy to the hospital instead of deceiving themselves that they are inching towards a cure. Of course the rest shout him down with the somewhat misplaced claim that “you must wish your dad dead”. That is what I see going on here. I am unimpressed by the tokenism, treatment of the symptom other than the disease, and the window-dressing that characterises the Ibori case. Even worse, I abhor the deliberate selectivity and highhandedness in the Ibori case, not because I am his supporter, but because I support fairness. If the ‘other thieves’ have not yet been CAUGHT/IDENTIFIED, then of course it is fair for Ibori to be made a scapegoat while the search continues for the others. But we all know that tons of petitions and evidence have been brought against many others (hello, Halliburton; hello power sector probe), yet there is a DELIBERATE attempt to cover up for them. I cannot stomach that. You may scroll up and re-read my point no. 3 in the introductory section of this post to refresh your memory as to why selectivity is absolutely untenable to me.

Deep Sight:


Does it miss you that it most likely is the case that ALMOST EVERY politician in this country is corrupt?

Now the government consists of Politicians.

Thus going by your reasoning, there WILL NEVER be a government that possesses the moral authority to effect such actions.

It is rather the case that in pursuit of personal interest, governments will have cause to unearth the corrupt deeds of this or that politician.

And I positively assert to you that such IS HEALTHY for the polity as the direct implication will be that EVERY politician will realize that it is politically dangerous to have skeletons in his cupboard.

With due respect, this is a laughable point of view. If a you say, the present system of politics will evolve to such a point where “in pursuit of personal interest, governments will have cause to unearth the corrupt deeds of this or that politician”, and therefore that “EVERY politician will realize that it is politically dangerous to have skeletons in his cupboard.”, does it not occur to you that an umpteen number of politicians would also evolve their game to be sure that they are always on the same page with any government in power (AGIP)? Don’t you realise that, even in this age, there are many politicians/businessmen who are adept at being AGIP sycophants? I know a few: Mr. Ojo Maduekwe, Oloye Olusola Saraki, Prof. Jerry Gana, Alhaji Aliko Dangote. These individuals always ‘happen’ to be on the same page with ALL administrations since the Babangida era till date. So they may never be ‘checkmated’ in the game of chess that anti-corruption war has become (according to you). Perhaps you fail to realise that as long as anti-corruption campaign continues like this, there SHALL be sacred cows, and if there are sacred cows then the anti-corruption war is selective. If it is selective then it is dubious. If it is dubious then it is an absolute SHAM!

Deep Sight:


What gives you the audacity to assert that Ibori’s actions or the quantum of corruption levelled against him is in anyway comparable to a metaphorical ant? What audit or process of inquiry have you conducted in this regard?

I don’t know or care about Ibori’s actions. But I do know about the allegations levelled against him, to wit – money laundering and corrupt enrichment. I also know the extent of force THE LAW prescribes for arresting someone suspected of that. To that extent, deploying maximum state coercion to arrest a suspect in a case of a non-violent crime is TANTAMOUNT to crushing an ant with a sledgehammer. That is the rightful inference that can be made from the position of the law; I do not rely on primordial passions or sentiments – they tend to blur objectivity and reason. Again, you may scroll up to see where I shed more light on this. Some would say he resisted arrest that is why the maximum force was necessary, this is ridiculous. Can anyone PROVE that Ibori personally authorised/mobilised the militant youths to defend him against arrest? Did the combined air, land and sea forces sent to arrest him in Oghara see him in person and he resisted arrest? What the law recognises as resisting arrest is the actual physical force employed by the suspect to fight off his arresters IN PERSON. In this case, law enforcement officers may employ higher coercion IN SELF DEFENCE. If in the suspect dies in the process then the officers are exonerated because they acted IN SELF DEFENCE.

Deep Sight:

you find yourself opening a thread with the title – “In defence of Ibori. . .”.
I state to you that that title alone is philosophically mis-footed, an assault to the conscience and sensibilities of an entire nation and an embarrassment of your perception of integrity.

I am thoroughly disappointed that a ‘sage’ of your high standing can permit himself to toe the path of the vulgar NL mob who have made a meal of citing the title of this thread as sufficient proof that I am actually defending Ibori, The title, conceived with journalistic spontaneity, was meant to draw attention to the thread. It is a pity that the word ‘defence’ has been obtusely operationalized out of context by some of you. Despite the oversight of omitting inverted commas (as in ‘defence’), the subsequent phrase in the title and the body of the main post itself should clear the doubts of any discerning reader. The taste of the pudding, after all, is in the eating.

Deep Sight:


“He is not the biggest thief in Nigeria”

This statement implies either one of two things –

1. You are omniscient OR

2. You know the exact amount of funds he has stolen, and also know a person who has stolen more.

Given that you are not omniscient, the only logical possibility is No. 2.

Can you tell us why you have not ratted out that other person whose personal finances you know so intimately, as to be aware that he is both a thief, and a bigger one than Ibori? ? ? ?

Again I have to poke holes - not necessarily in the quality of your thinking, but in the depth of your thinking. I shouldn’t bother to reply this, but I will – just for the mere sake of philosophy. I am not omniscient as you rightly pointed out, and I do not know the exact amount of money any public officer has stolen, But I DO know that what can be stolen is always directly proportional to what is there to be stolen. And so it takes no Albert Einstein to know that Delta state under Ibori did not have as much resources as Nigeria under OBJ (for instance). If as you mentioned earlier, every politician in Nigeria is a thief, does it make any sense to question the assertion that the politician with access to N1000 cannot be a bigger thief than the politician with access to N1, 000, 000? Think about it and come to terms with your illogic.

Be that as it may, I insist that you have a right to your opinions, just as I am eminently entitled to mine. There is no “right” or “wrong” opinion; all opinions are subjective and arise from peculiar individuals world views and thought processes. The fact that my views are minority views cannot compel me to accept the tyranny of the majority. Talking amorally now, and quoting the Chinese statesman, Cao Cao, “I would rather betray the world than let the world betray me”. You don’t have to like me.

monkeyleg:

You people shouldnt bother yourselfs with Pro01, he is a fully paid-up Ibori backside-licker. Absolute deadender.

I have met people who went to Uni-Ben with Ibori, and they confirm that he was a Big Thief right from there. I Know Ibori well enuff to tell you that his father was an Ambulance driver for one of the General Hospitals in old Bendel state. So he didnt actually fall off a wealthy family.

Ibori has been convicted for Theft in the UK. FACT, ABSOLUTE FACT. His wife Nkoyo was a cashier at the DIY store they both stole from. FACT.

why do you bother? thieves will always defend their likes.

pro01:

1. I am entitled to my opinions; opinions which, in my own enlightened judgment are profound and deeper than the surface. You don’t have to agree with my views.

When someone begins a point with this, it is suggestive enough that they have no conviction in their own arguments and need to set the defensive line first.

We say the same line with the fooool on the IBB Achievement thread trying to promote IBB when logic was used to floor him.

What ever happened to stating what you believe and the logic will show your opinion is superior.

Enlightened me arse.

When someone begins a point with this, it is suggestive enough that they have no conviction in their own arguments and need to set the defensive line first.

We say the same line with the fooool on the IBB Achievement thread trying to promote IBB when logic was used to floor him.

What ever happened to stating what you believe and the logic will show your opinion is superior.

Enlightened me arse.

@sagamite,
u always want to be everywhere but u have nothing to offer.
in a very simple sentence, WHY IS ATIKU NOT IN JAIL OR WHY DID HE NOT GO TO JAIL WHEN RIBADU AND OBJ FOUND HIM GUILTY IN 2007?
u must be informed on the topic u discuss. stop fooling urself. if u are informed and u are dedicated to defending the group u call holy then justify their action over atiku who is now part of them.

pro01:

@ Deep Sight

Since you have somewhat disproved my earlier conviction that you belong to that misfortunate 'confederacy' that employs only vulgar methods to espouse their opinions, and having giving a hint that you are a member of the higher order, I will endure the inconvenience of repeating my main points again - in response to your post. I do this, however, with the presumption that you are intelligent enough to realise the following:

Please do not patronise me.

I do not come to this forum to be recognised as a member of any “higher order” – which order you have arrogated to yourself and this appears to inform the exasperating and comical fashion in which you presumptuously allot yourself the role of Einstein, whereat we, humble lot, remain dunces.

1. I am entitled to my opinions; opinions which, in my own enlightened judgment are profound and deeper than the surface. You don’t have to agree with my views.

This is the first time on this forum I have come across a fellow refer to himself as possessing “enlightened judgment.” And I have come across a great deal of megalomaniacs. But none so far-gone as to adorn himself with such narcissistic praise as you do. But no matter.

2. Consequent on the above, you may choose to agree with me that I do not have any ties whatsoever with Ibori and have never been a beneficiary of whatever funds he is purported to have acquired.

I hope so.

1. I never asked for the process (of arrest) to be halted! I questioned the methods/heavy-handedness/unprecedented resources deployed for his case, as well as the obvious selectivity . . . in other words what made his PARTICULAR case so special!

You have questioned the following –

1. “the methods/heavy-handedness/unprecedented resources deployed for his case”

2. “the obvious selectivity”

With respect to No. 1 above, I set forth this contention to you –

***  If a man is validly suspected of significant official corruption

*** That man engages the authorities in a display of force and thereby aggressively resists arrest

*** Such a man cannot be heard to complain regarding the degree of force deployed to effect his arrest.

I positively challenge you to dispute the foregoing. In this, I state unequivocally that it is a most lame, most intransigent, and most untenable position for such a man to refer to any other persons who may be equally deserving of arrest as grounds for his reprehensible defiance of state authority.

Sir, I happen to be a legal practitioner and I can tell you that in terms of the sub-text of legal enforcement, there is no greater offence than the act of deploying force of arms against the sovereignty of the state: this is exactly what your principal did in resisting (by force of arms), the order of arrest of the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.

I can therefore surmise that in addition to his acts of official corruption, your principal is also potentially guilty of Treason. This fact alone sufficiently unhinges your claims regarding the gravity of his offence – as there is no offence which may be said to be graver than the offence of Treason.

Let me point out that even if you dare to make the comical claim that the armed youths were not there at his behest, this is moot as it does not change the fact that the youths were committing an offence by preventing the state from effecting an arrest. Thus VIOLENT AND criminal means were deployed to protect him, he accepted such protection by refusing to yield to the authorities and subsequently escaped. That makes him at the very least an accessory to the treasonable actions in Oghara.

Aside this, lie to your self in your conscience that you do not know that those guys were sponsored by Ibori. Just Lie.

Now in addition to the foregoing, I am astonished that the following obvious fact entirely missed your narcissistic highness – namely –

THAT THE FAILURE OF THE AUTHOURITIES TO EFFECT IBORI’S ARREST ON ACCOUNT OF HIS ILLEGAL DEPLOYMENT OF ARMED YOUTHS TO DEFEND HIM IN ITSELF ABSOLUTELY SEALS THE POINT THAT THE FORCE DEPLOYED WAS ONLY APT AND NECESSARY!

Because –

 1. Such force would not be necessary if Ibori was not surrounded by a large contingent of persons bearing illegal arms.

 2. The fact that the forces deployed could not surmount his defences shows that the forces deployed, contrary to your surmise, WERE NOT EVEN SUFFICIENT![/b]

I may therefore conclude that –

1. You’re are oblivious to the seriousness of the act of armed resistance to state authority: [u]you accordingly advance a case for both treason and anarchy

2. Your assertion regarding the level of the force deployed irrevocably falls apart once we consider the twin facts that –

a. There was a mob of illegally armed militants guarding him, AND –

b. The forces deployed yet proved insufficient to overcome his illegal guard

2. The motives behind the process are of the greatest consequence imaginable! The motive for arresting and prosecuting a suspect should STRICTLY be to bring him to justice for his crime(s). Any other motive behind this makes the process a sham, and more importantly, UNSUSTAINABLE and INEFFECTIVE.

This is false.

The State may have a personal grouse against a known criminal, such as the United States Government did in the seventies against several Italian mobsters. I hope you are aware that after the government was unable to pin murder charges on some of these guys they had to effect their arrest on trumped-up charges of tax evasion. That society has remained much safer and saner as a consequence.

At all events that is a crude analogy. The finer point is and remains the question of the guilt of the person being hounded.

If that person is indeed guilty of the crimes levelled against him, it is of no consequence legally and morally speaking that the charges are only being brought because he fancies the President’s mistress.

To ram home this point, I DEMAND of you that you answer me in clear and straight terms the following question –

1. The Federal Government recently indicated that it is considering opening an investigation regarding official corruption against Ibrahim Babangida.

2. It is eminently possible that the motivation for opening such an inquiry is to castrate Babangida’s presidential ambitions and thereby maintain the current government in power beyond 2011.

Now tell me – would you object to the move to prosecute Babangida? Is it not true that such a prosecution will be in line with the aspirations of Nigerians, the collective conscience of this nation, all known morals and ethics, and I dare, say, the will of God?

And this remains the case regardless of the fact that the prosecution could be politically motivated!

Answer me on this – will you object to the move to prosecute Babangida?

This firmly proves the point we have laboured to make across this thread – namely the simple wisdom that if a person is actually guilty of a crime, it is neither here nor there that the charge is raised  because such a person fancies the president’s wife, or that there are other persons guilty of such.

The best you can do is to applaud that person’s arrest whilst also calling for the arrest of others.

By the way, IBB is now being examined. So your fundamental premise that others are not being examined falls apart. Let me ask you this again –

If you were to produce a list of all the corrupt politicians in Nigeria, and the current government prosecutes them all on account of personal vendetta and slams them all in jail – would you scream blue murder – or kneel in thanks to God that through a twist of fate, these barbaric goons have met their just reward?

EVERY CAUGHT/IDENTIFIED criminal MUST be prosecuted using same standards designated for particular crimes.

Frankly, this is humanly impossible. You expect an utopia.

You are absolutely correct. I, as Mazi Pro01, do not regard corruption to be as grave as mass murder and terrorism (in other words, I’d rather dine with the ghost of Mobutu Sese Seko than that of Adolf Hitler; and the USA would release all the fraudsters in its prisons if that will guarantee them Osama Bin Laden’s Head, for instance). No crime is worse than premeditated killing of innocent people. Having clarified that, I must point out that my opinion is of little consequence. What is of absolute consequence is the opinion of the law. And you may wish to learn that the opinion of the law (in Nigeria) happens to coincide with my opinion, which is that money laundering is not as grave an offence as murder. That is why the former is bail-able and the latter not; that is why the maximum sentence for the former is less than ten years (concurrently, in the event of multiple count charges) and the latter death sentence. You may also be willing to note that the extent of force for arrests, and punishments the law stipulates for money laundering offences (which is the charge against Ibori) is manifestly clear

I would expect you to adopt a deeper and more circumspect approach to the inference you have made above.

I am not going to dwell on this just now, as I am tired, and will shortly take a nap, but I will simply give you a chance to revert to me and revise your misguided view on this point: if you do not, I will address this in detail.

Nevertheless let me just leave this poser for you –

Man X – murders one (1) Citizen and is sentenced to death.

Man Y – Engages in official corruption for eight years, and in the process ensures a dilapidated society that ensures the premature death of hundreds of thousands of citizens.

I do not know what moral code you subscribe to,  but any rational person can see that Man Y above has done far more harm to society than Man X.

Now when you cite the provisions of the law to me regarding the punishment due for murder as against the punishment due for official corruption, I will have you know that this is only a question of context and clime. For there are serious nations that recognise exactly how serious official corruption is, and punish it with the maximum penalty – DEATH.

IN MANY COUNTRIES OF ASIA AND THE FAR EAST, CORRUPTION IS PUNISHABLE BY THE DEATH PENALY

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS IS THE CASE?[/b]

This singularly floors your argument.

The law does not allow the use maximum force (i.e. deadly firearms possibly leading to death of the suspect) in non-violent crimes such as money laundering.

The law in every country of the world ABSOLUTELY permits the use of violent force for the arrest of persons who violently resist arrest when sought for a felony.

This is an incontestable fact.

It is also an incontestable fact that Ibori resisted arrest deploying hundreds of illegally armed men.

If that were not the case, why did he remain surrounded by them and refuse to yield to the authorities? At the very least that makes him an accessory to their offence, aside from the fact that unless we are to lie to ourselves, it is obvious that they were on his payroll.

That is treason, illegal possession of arms, incitement against the state, resisting arrest, obstruction of justice. . . do not even ask me to draft the charge sheet because the number of counts will equate the age of Methuselah.

I positively assert to you that in every country of the world, these offences justify the deployment of violent force under the law.

Contradict that if you can.

The cowardly masses have been pushed to the wall, rather than fight back like the proverbial longsuffering goat, they break the wall and run even farther.

This being true still does not invalidate anything said above.

With due respect, this is a laughable point of view. If a you say, the present system of politics will evolve to such a point where “in pursuit of personal interest, governments will have cause to unearth the corrupt deeds of this or that politician”, and therefore that “EVERY politician will realize that it is politically dangerous to have skeletons in his cupboard.”, does it not occur to you that an umpteen number of politicians would also evolve their game to be sure that they are always on the same page with any government in power (AGIP)?

That is what Ibori tried to do by supporting the lame-duck Yaradua presidency. It rebounded on him forcefully. End of the day, everybody can see that the only safe path is the avoidance of skeletons. Lest your shallow and politically-motivated enemies “get you!”

Can anyone PROVE that Ibori personally authorised/mobilised the militant youths to defend him against arrest?

Is this a joke?

What is a citizen required to do when declared wanted? Remain cooped up in his house surrounded by a hoard of armed militants and subsequently disappear overseas?

I will only respond to statements that are worth responding to.

Again I have to poke holes - not necessarily in the quality of your thinking, but in the depth of your thinking. I shouldn’t bother to reply this, but I will – just for the mere sake of philosophy. I am not omniscient as you rightly pointed out, and I do not know the exact amount of money any public officer has stolen, But I DO know that what can be stolen is always directly proportional to what is there to be stolen. And so it takes no Albert Einstein to know that Delta state under Ibori did not have as much resources as Nigeria under OBJ (for instance).

This is irrelevant unless and until you can prove exactly how much OBJ stole.

Your statement contains a lamentable presumption that the sum of funds available to be stolen is equal to the sum of funds stolen.

I do not make any such hasty and utterly unfounded generalization. I do not claim omniscience. You stated that Ibori is not the biggest thief in Nigeria. Prove it.

Your averment that others had a bigger pot at their disposal is comical as an attempt at proof. Since when did availability equal theft?

I insist that you are misguided in the extreme.

I have to commend some of you for being tough on the issue and not making it personal. Great maturity.

Deep Sight, you made some decent points, infact these were the sort of arguments you could/should have made when 'the doctrine of necessity' was cooked up, treason also came to my mind- but I digress.

It would be remiss of me not to correct one factual inaccuracy in your Man X & Man Y scenarios.

When you examine the facts on how state governments 1999-2007 have tackled the indices of deprivation such as infant, maternal mortality, healthcare and education - Delta state is a clear winner.

Before the Ibori regime, infant mortality was running at 102 deaths per 1000 births today it is down to 48 deaths per 1000 births, most of the country is still in the 90s - Lagos by the way is 85 deaths per 1000 births.

There are other examples 'but make we leave that side'. On that score alone, there are more fitting candidates for the bullets of your executioner.

The mass murderer logic is wrongly applied to  Delta State, it may be more fitting at a national level, if indeed it does have a place in our society.

Between London & Dubai there will be justice. I can't guarantee that you will be happy with the outcome but there will be a fair trial.

The question now on everyones lips is 'Who is next?'

'If you were to produce a list of all the corrupt politicians in Nigeria'
We don't have to look far,  Independent Power Probe and Halliburton spring to mind. What are we waiting for?

Why are the British authorities wasting so much time on this matter,they should just go ahead and extradite Thief Onanethief Ibori to the UK and give him a speedy trial so he can be jailed(he and his wife,sister,LovePeddler and in-laws that were implicated),and ALL assets he acquired with the stolen money sold off and the funds returned to the coffers of the FGN(for safe-keeping for DTSG)tll after Uduaghan is disgraced out of government house Asab

@rasputinn,
do not be decieved, no matter how a cow suffer purge, it can never come down to the size of a goat. ibori can never be poor and be reminded that is not even the intention of the FG. all they want is to take away power from him. alams is still a very rich and influential man. his boy is the president of nigeria and do u think he is not well placed?
talking about recovered loots, where are the recovered loots of abacha? how have ur life been changed with that and how does this recovered loots touch the lives of common men?
ibb is not running and he is not been questioned by anyone. obj is still in charge and no questions? bode george is serving two years for stealing over N100b and u are rejoicing.
give me N100b and send me to life inprisonment as long as it is nigeria.

SapeleGuy:

I have to commend some of you for being tough on the issue and not making it personal. Great maturity.

Deep Sight, you made some decent points, infact these were the sort of arguments you could/should have made when 'the doctrine of necessity' was cooked up, treason also came to my mind- but I digress.

It would be remiss of me not to correct one factual inaccuracy in your Man X & Man Y scenarios.

When you examine the facts on how state governments 1999-2007 have tackled the indices of deprivation such as infant, maternal mortality, healthcare and education - Delta state is a clear winner.

Before the Ibori regime, infant mortality was running at 102 deaths per 1000 births today it is down to 48 deaths per 1000 births, most of the country is still in the 90s - Lagos by the way is 85 deaths per 1000 births.

There are other examples 'but make we leave that side'. On that score alone, there are more fitting candidates for the bullets of your executioner.

The mass murderer logic is wrongly applied to  Delta State, it may be more fitting at a national level, if indeed it does have a place in our society.

SapeleGuy, let me fault your logic here and probably add to Deep Sight's Man X and Y scenario.

Irrespective of the infant mortality figures you indicated, I have to make you aware that that is just a metric relative to under 5s (I think). It is not a holistic view and is susceptible to distortion of the performance of a government by emphasising this.

It is clearly possible that a government engaged in an embroided scheme (or even a sincere personal agenda close to their heart [wicked as the heart might be]) on ONE/A FEW issue such as healthcare (maybe they have lost a close one to it). That does not take from the fact that the immense neglect of other sectors due to immense avarice is on aggregate a HUGE damage to society.

So what if infant mortality increases but the children grows up with minimal human development and a crime-ridden environment resulting from the have-nots engaging in robbery to irk a living?

What is the resultant mortality figures due to robbery/kidnaping/militancy in Delta in comparison to the rest of Nigeria?

So they survived infancy but yet die by the gun of a fellow frustrated citizen or a car accident from poorly maintained road or from illness due to the poor water they got when the state cannot provide water distribution systems?

Man X – murders one (1) Citizen and is sentenced to death.

Man Y – Engages in official corruption for eight years, and in the process ensures a dilapidated society that ensures the premature death of hundreds of thousands of citizens as:

*** Crime is on the increase
*** Security is low or even when extant is made up of untrained (due to corruption) officers that are as evil as the armed robbers they are suppose to protect citizens from
*** Pensioners die younger than they should due to stress and lack of funds to manage their health (infant mortality figures don't show this)
*** Justice becomes difficult due to inability of security forces to investigate crimes (due to lack of training and susceptibility to bribes) hence leading to people getting away with all soughts of soul depressing crimes (including murder)
*** Corruption becomes a stymie as the corrupt officials due to the financial gain of their corruption become the most powerful and influencial, hence become untouchables and then corruption perpetuates itself to the brink point which is only reversible by revolution that inevitably results in tens/hundreds of deaths

As I said, your infant mortality is misleading to the lay mind. Come with more holistic review that shows life was better for Deltans on average to the point the bettered life is as close as reasonably possible to what is obtainable with the level of funds disbursed to the state as budget during Ibori's tenure.

@Deep Sight, if I begin to pick holes in the logic of "Genius and Discerning" pro01,  I will spend all day here. 

Let me just highlight one.

His proof is "If you have access to more funds then it is logical to state you probably stole more".  bleep me! 

guys we need to pretend to accept logic of proo1' arguments - month end is around the corner - dude needs to meet his targets.

uncle jamiu has been checking this thread, and u can be sure the fat f-uck is not happy

SapeleGuy:


Before the Ibori regime, infant mortality was running at 102 deaths per 1000 births today it is down to 48 deaths per 1000 births, most of the country is still in the 90s - Lagos by the way is 85 deaths per 1000 births.

Can you provide your source?

@ Deep Sight

It is not my style to engage in endless chicken and egg arguments, or to go round and round in circles. This is why I would reply you this one last time. I realise that you cannot be convinced to change your opinions, neither can the combined fury of the Milky Way and the planets cause me to change mine.

Deep Sight:


This is the first time on this forum I have come across a fellow refer to himself as possessing “enlightened judgment.” And I have come across a great deal of megalomaniacs. But none so far-gone as to adorn himself with such narcissistic praise as you do.

I will not be quick to conclude that you are challenged in the comprehension of semantics; your long winding, circuitous presentations do not suggest that. However, I am at pains in trying to understand why someone like you would construe ‘enlightened judgment’ which every educated person ought to have (in order to form his/her own opinions on issues) to mean “narcissistic praise”. Well, I leave you to your challenges – be they semantic or otherwise.

Deep Sight:

Let me point out that even if you dare to make the comical claim that the armed youths were not there at his behest, this is moot as it does not change the fact that the youths were committing an offence by preventing the state from effecting an arrest. Thus VIOLENT AND criminal means were deployed to protect him, he accepted such protection by refusing to yield to the authorities and subsequently escaped. That makes him at the very least an accessory to the treasonable actions in Oghara.

For someone who claims to be a legal practitioner, I marvel that you can make such wild deductions without concrete evidence. I don’t want to go into circuitous legal exchanges with you because it is an unproductive exercise. Suffice it to say, however, that the law does not accept speculations or ‘conscientious’ deductions, but hard facts. Youths, women and children numbering up to 1000 barricaded the Oghara community OSTENSIBLY in protest against Ibori’s planned arrest. Question is: How do you prove to the courts that this mass action was directly ordered/planned/sanctioned by Mr. Ibori Being a lawyer, you know you would fall flat against Ibori’s defence counsel in this regard. I wouldn’t belabour this argument any further. But my contention remains that the battalions of military/paramilitary operatives and weaponry deployed in trying to arrest him was uncalled for, heavy-handed, unwieldy, irrational and irresponsible – considering that the allegation against him bothers on a non-violent crime. This is very simple.

Deep Sight:

The State may have a personal grouse against a known criminal, such as the United States Government did in the seventies against several Italian mobsters. I hope you are aware that after the government was unable to pin murder charges on some of these guys they had to effect their arrest on trumped-up charges of tax evasion. That society has remained much safer and saner as a consequence.

This is a spectacularly lame point of view, the cited example, even lamer. To start with, you seem to equate “the state” to the individual(s) occupying the presidency; otherwise I know not what you mean by “the state may have a personal grouse against a known criminal”. What is personal about the state? We are not talking about Louis XIV and his famous “L'etat c'est moi” here. The US example you cited provides comic relief at best; the Italian mobsters you mentioned, by virtue of their heinous activities, were a direct threat to the peace, security and well-being of the state and the citizens thereof. So the only motive behind the arrest and ‘elimination’, if you will, of these nuisances was the GOOD OF THE WHOLE SOCIETY. It would have been a “personal grouse” if the motive behind their arrest and prosecution was that they short-changed a certain Richard Nixon in an under-the-table business deal (for Instance) or that they were a threat to the re-election bid of a certain Jimmy Carter (for instance). Please don’t get things twisted. And if you would care to learn, there were no “trumped up” charges of tax evasion against Al Capone and his successors, there were actual tax evasion offences. And here is a spectacular lesson for the Nigerians that support barbaric tactics in order for the end to justify the means in arresting Ibori: The US government and the whole US society KNEW that the mobsters committed murders, gun-running, drug-dealing, and all other offences imaginable but they just could not lay hands on concrete PROOF. That is why they could only tag a mere tax evasion and money laundering to hardened murderers like Al Capone. If it were in Nigeria, you would send the whole armed forces to arrest a supposed ‘thief’ based on (albeit correct) speculation. Rule of Law indeed.

Deep Sight:


To ram home this point, I DEMAND of you that you answer me in clear and straight terms the following question –

1. The Federal Government recently indicated that it is considering opening an investigation regarding official corruption against Ibrahim Babangida.

2. It is eminently possible that the motivation for opening such an inquiry is to castrate Babangida’s presidential ambitions and thereby maintain the current government in power beyond 2011.

Now tell me – would you object to the move to prosecute Babangida? Is it not true that such a prosecution will be in line with the aspirations of Nigerians, the collective conscience of this nation, all known morals and ethics, and I dare, say, the will of God?

And this remains the case regardless of the fact that the prosecution could be politically motivated!

Answer me on this – will you object to the move to prosecute Babangida?

Yes! The underlying principles behind my ‘defence’ of Ibori apply almost entirely in the case of IBB. I do not know whether you cannot read between the lines of my arguments. If you do, you would not need to ask me whether or not I would object to the move to prosecute Babangida. BY NOW YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT I DO NOT SUPPORT A SHAMBOLIC FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION. If you want to ‘prosecute’ IBB simply because you want him to step down his presidential ambition to pave the way for your own smooth sail to the presidential seat, my questions are: why should I be impressed with that? Why should any discerning Nigerian celebrate that? Why should that be a reason for any wise man to think that the war on corruption is making progress? You disappoint me by the ease with which you accept these deceptive tokenisms by the Nigerian government and its occupants. I know it is said that seven blind men would touch seven different parts of an elephant and thus proffer seven different descriptions of what they feel the thing is. Your perspective would thus depend on what part you touch. I wonder what part of the elephant of you guys are touching, maybe the anus.

Deep Sight:



Man X – murders one (1) Citizen and is sentenced to death.

Man Y – Engages in official corruption for eight years, and in the process ensures a dilapidated society that ensures the premature death of hundreds of thousands of citizens.

I do not know what moral code you subscribe to,  but any rational person can see that Man Y above has done far more harm to society than Man X.

[b] Now when you cite the provisions of the law to me regarding the punishment due for murder as against the punishment due for official corruption, I will have you know that this is only a question of context and clime. For there are serious nations that recognise exactly how serious official corruption is, and punish it with the maximum penalty – DEATH.

Your Man X and Man Y scenario does not cut any ice with me, sorry. The fact is that on another level (I will come to that presently) you fault my deductive reasoning and demand concrete proof, while now that it suits your narrow purposes, you build an entire sky-scraper on a foundation of faulty deduction: it is doomed to collapse. I am shamelessly amoral; all morality is subjective and cannot be foisted on another as right or wrong. But, despite my amorality, I believe that no crime is worse than premeditated murder of innocent an innocent person. Man X kills a fellow human being, a most despicable and objectionable offence by ALL accounts. The FACT that he killed a human being is HARD FACT. Now, for Man Y who, as you say, “engages in official corruption for eight years, and in the process ensures a dilapidated society that ensures the premature death of hundreds of thousands of citizens.”. Any country nitwit can immediately see a glaring missing link: HOW does the official corruption directly ensure premature death of hundreds of thousands? Whatever answer you may purport to provide will at best be speculative, not even deductive as I earlier said. This is not SCIENCE, neither is it FACT. So a conclusion built upon a false premise is indicative of a profoundly illogical argument. Maybe you would prefer to be murdered than to see corruption continue in Nigeria; why not make this sacrifice for our collective good? Walk the talk.

Deep Sight:

IN MANY COUNTRIES OF ASIA AND THE FAR EAST, CORRUPTION IS PUNISHABLE BY THE DEATH PENALY[/b]

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS IS THE CASE?[/b]

This singularly floors your argument.

In your enthusiasm to win an argument, you resort to jungle tactics where anything goes. This is lamentable. Below is the statement that the above quote by you tries to negate:

“And you may wish to learn that the opinion of the law (in Nigeria) happens to coincide with my opinion, which is that money laundering is not as grave an offence as murder. That is why the former is bail-able and the latter not; that is why the maximum sentence for the former is less than ten years (concurrently, in the event of multiple count charges) and the latter death sentence. You may also be willing to note that the extent of force for arrests, and punishments the law stipulates for money laundering offences (which is the charge against Ibori) is manifestly clear.”

Being that you are blessed with ‘Deep Sight’ I know that you must have seen the “(In Nigeria)” somewhere there, and in any case we are talking about a Nigerian politician charged with offences allegedly committed in Nigeria, so EXTANT Nigerian laws must apply. If corruption is punishable by death in Asia and the Far East, how does that “singularly floor my argument”? Would you as a lawyer be quoting Saudi Laws in front of a Judge of the \Nigerian Federal High Court? Be still, please.

Be that as it may, I actually support the death penalty for corruption in Nigeria (that is an entirely different argument though). As long as there is fairness in the process and there is a genuine commitment by IMPARTIAL law enforcement agencies to prosecute EVERY CAUGHT corrupt person, then the death penalty would be fine by me.

Deep Sight:


The law in every country of the world ABSOLUTELY permits the use of violent force for the arrest of persons who violently resist arrest when sought for a felony.

This is an incontestable fact.

It is also an incontestable fact that Ibori resisted arrest deploying hundreds of illegally armed men.

If that were not the case, why did he remain surrounded by them and refuse to yield to the authorities? At the very least that makes him an accessory to their offence, aside from the fact that unless we are to lie to ourselves, it is obvious that they were on his payroll.

[b]That is treason, illegal possession of arms, incitement against the state, resisting arrest, obstruction of justice. . . do not even ask me to draft the charge sheet because the number of counts will equate the age of Methuselah.

At the risk of being accused of playing the Devil’s Advocate, I have to again insist that you cannot PROVE that Ibori “resisted arrest (by) deploying hundreds of illegally armed men”. Do you have the contract documents wherein Ibori hired the so-called armed men in exchange for monetary compensation or whatever? IT IS AT BEST SPECULATIVE, and the law (the Evidence Act) does not recognise speculations. As a lawyer, you know you can never win the distinguished SANs Ibori would hire to so easily disprove this baseless claim of yours in court.

Consequent on the following, it is easy to see that the long list of charges you are preparing (treason, illegal possession of arms, incitement against the state, resisting arrest, obstruction of justice, etc.) do not hold water. Charge the illegally armed youths for unlawful assembly, fine. Charge them for illegal possession of firearms, fine. But HOW can you tie Ibori to all of that, in the eye of the law Indeed, how do you even prove that he was, at that material time, present in his Oghara home, surrounded by the youths, in such a way that makes him an accessory to their offence? Facts, my friend, we need facts. Not speculation. I direct these questions to you as a lawyer, not as the mundane laymen who I know would call for my head and accuse me of being dishonest.

Deep Sight:

What is a citizen required to do when declared wanted? Remain cooped up in his house surrounded by a hoard of armed militants and subsequently disappear overseas?

I would not deign to answer this hypocritical question. When you see Nuhu Ribadu, ask him. When you see El-Rufai, ask him. When you see Erastus Akingbola, ask him. When you see Mike Adenuga, ask him. When you see Prof. Wole Soyinka, ask him. When you see Dim Odimegwu Ojukwu, ask him. When you see several other Nigerians that have escaped overseas at one time or the other as fugitives when declared wanted by The State, ask them. I can hazard a guess as to the answer all of them (including Ibori) would give you regarding why they disobeyed The State and escaped justice: POLITICAL PERSECUTION! Who are you to regard one as justified and the other as not? Who are you to make such a subjective judgment?

Deep Sight:

Your statement contains a lamentable presumption that the sum of funds available to be stolen is equal to the sum of funds stolen.

I do not make any such hasty and utterly unfounded generalization. I do not claim omniscience. You stated that Ibori is not the biggest thief in Nigeria. [u]Prove it.

Your averment that others had a bigger pot at their disposal is comical as an attempt at proof. Since when did availability equal theft?

This is the apogee of intellectual hypocrisy.  As a lawyer I am certain that you are at home with inductive and deductive reasoning. You made a valid generalisation in a previous post, to wit: “all Nigerian politicians are corrupt”.  Now, this implies that all of them have the tendency to steal; in other words, all of them are thieves. Against this aggregate premise, is it not logical to deduct that the biggest thief of the lot would be the one with access to the biggest funds? Who would steal more: the armed robber that accesses the loaded vault of a big commercial bank, or the armed robber that accesses the loaded vault of a local community bank? If you negate this reasoning then I’ll be left aghast as to how you passed philosophy 101.

Never minding philosophy, I will provide cogent and verifiable proof that Ibori is not the biggest ‘thief’ in Nigeria. As a prelude, I need to remind you that the basis of declaring someone a ‘thief’ is either that he has been caught in the act (in the context of ordinary, everyday life), or that he has been CONVICTED by a court of competent jurisdiction. To the best of my knowledge, none of these conditions exist in Ibori’s case. I am therefore even loath to call him a thief with all certainty (crucify me if you like, but you brought up all this legal hocus-pocus). Alamieyeseigha is a thief, yes, because the court said so. Tafa Balogun is a thief, yes, because the court said so, Bode George is a thief, yes, because the court said so. Ibori is a SUSPECTED thief, yes, but not a certified thief, no not yet. This alone takes the wind off the sails of your posturing, legally speaking.

Going further, I must point out to you that since it is impossible to know the bank balance of every Nigerian, the only way to know (empirically) who is a bigger thief or smaller thief is to look at the figures quoted in the accusations and charges preferred against this or that individual. This is the basis upon with I will gleefully prove to you that, contrary to your earnest and rabid posturing, Ibori IS NOT the biggest ‘thief’ in Nigeria. Consider this: Ibori is charged with converting N44b worth of Oceanic bank shares to the use of a private company in which he allegedly has substantial interest. On the other hand, your beloved brother Olusegun Obasanjo is accused of ‘mismanaging’ $16b (i.e. about N2.1tr) power sector funds (according to the House of Rep probe report). Between N44b and N2.1tr, which is more? Therefore who is the bigger thief? That’s one. Two, your esteemed 'pastor' brother, Mr Erastus Akingbola was accused by the EFCC of criminally appropriating depositor funds of about N385b to his personal use while serving as MD of Intercontinental Bank PLC (a public company). My friend, between N44b and N385b which is more? Who is the bigger thief? There is Anenih and his N300b road funds, there is IBB and his $12b Gulf War windfall; it goes on and on. Since you’d rather be a smart alec about these issues, or you prefer to be clever by half, I’d leave you to your opinions. The few discerning members of the public know better; after all, wise men are always in the minority. However, the tragedy of the Nigerian factor is that a considerable number of otherwise wise men (including you, I suspect) have their wisdom obscured by hypocrisy and primordial sentiments.

Going further, I must point out to you that since it is impossible to know the bank balance of every Nigerian, the only way to know (empirically) who is a bigger thief or smaller thief is to look at the figures quoted in the accusations and charges preferred against this or that individual. This is the basis upon with I will gleefully prove to you that, contrary to your earnest and rabid posturing, Ibori IS NOT the biggest ‘thief’ in Nigeria. Consider this: Ibori is charged with converting N44b worth of Oceanic bank shares to the use of a private company in which he allegedly has substantial interest. On the other hand, your beloved brother Olusegun Obasanjo is accused of ‘mismanaging’ $16b (i.e. about N2.1tr) power sector funds (according to the House of Rep probe report). Between N44b and N2.1tr, which is more? Therefore who is the bigger thief? That’s one. Two, your esteemed 'pastor' brother, Mr Erastus Akingbola was accused by the EFCC of criminally appropriating depositor funds of about N385b to his personal use while serving as MD of Intercontinental Bank PLC (a public company). My friend, between N44b and N385b which is more? Who is the bigger thief? There is Anenih and his N300b road funds, there is IBB and his $12b Gulf War windfall; it goes on and on. Since you’d rather be a smart alec about these issues, or you prefer to be clever by half, I’d leave you to your opinions. The few discerning members of the public know better; after all, wise men are always in the minority. However, the tragedy of the Nigerian factor is that a considerable number of otherwise wise men (including you, I suspect) have their wisdom obscured by hypocrisy and primordial sentiments.

i see the man stole onl 44billion - let him go! bravo!

that is the summary of all this long grammer you have posted.

oyb:


i see the man stole onl 44billion - let him go! bravo!

that is the summary of all this long grammer you have posted.

It is still very tough to get it in his "discerning" brain that thief na thief, and he should be saying: "Thank you, who's next"?

Pro01,

I dont know you from Adam but I do know the work of a professional hack-writer when I see one-this is a bit low class but yet unmistakable.

Go tell your peeps that this is a waste of time. Efforts should be directed at preventing Ibori from being extradited to London from Dubai. If he goes to London, a minimum 5yrs in the slammer is guarranteed. Those pple are particularly deaf to crowd renting and hack writing. And then pray the US does not show interest in this money laundering matter b/c I am sure he must have taken some of the loot there too.

Nigeria is where it is b/c pple refuse to speak against evil. The ones who speak and occupy our political firmament are the ones ready to perpetrate evil for recompense.

Corruption is our biggest problem. It is the reason Nigeria must remain on its knees. Our legislatures are blind to the fact that the laws against corruption are weak, inadequate and infact encourages rather than deter corruption. Enforces have been pauperized and will connive with accused person against the state. The deprived and oppressed citizens too seek patronage as hack-writers, rented voices and foot soldiers in this melodrama. While the thief calls the shots.

Pennywise:

Nigeria is where it is b/c pple refuse to speak against evil. The ones who speak and occupy our political firmament are the ones ready to perpetrate evil for recompense.

Somehow, the "evil" of utilising the whole force of state security to seek Ibori supercedes the evil of Ibori towards the people of Delta in his "enlightened" mind.

Sagamite:

Somehow, the "evil" of utilising the whole force of state security to seek Ibori supercedes the evil of Ibori towards the people of Delta in his "enlightened" mind.

No serious state tolerates what in effect is an armed insurrection against it. But this is Nigeria. Anything goes. It is also only in Nigeria pple appearing to sound educated will spend useful time defending known criminals.

pro01:

I realise that you cannot be convinced to change your opinions, neither can the combined fury of the Milky Way and the planets cause me to change mine.

I can be convinced to change my opinion if you present a cogent argument. That is the hallmark of reason.

If YOU cannot be convinced BY ANYTHING, then I verily state to you that this is the hallmark of aversion to reason.

How do you prove to the courts that this mass action was directly ordered/planned/sanctioned by Mr. Ibori

This is manifestly dishonest. Again, I do not know what moral code you subscribe to, but I strongly suggest to you that there is no moral code that would endorse your propagation of deliberate lies in a bid to prove a reckless, immoral, incongruous, unethical, guttural, recidivist, antediluvian, bizarre and absolutely irresponsible point.

Being a lawyer, you know you would fall flat against Ibori’s defence counsel in this regard. I wouldn’t belabour this argument any further. But my contention remains that the battalions of military/paramilitary operatives and weaponry deployed in trying to arrest him was uncalled for, heavy-handed, unwieldy, irrational and irresponsible – considering that the allegation against him bothers on a non-violent crime. This is very simple.

I am at a loss. I presume you did not read my post at all.

Can you cite to me what law exactly ties the mode of arrest to the violence/ non-violence of a crime? Is it not rather the seriousness of the crime - be it violent or non-violent, that is consisdered?

I positively assert to you that there is NO such law – and accordingly you are feeding your audience with a repugnant falsehood. Is it not rather the case that the mode of resistance of arrest determines what force is deployed?

The fact of the matter is that force is lawful once a person resists arrest.

In everything you have said, you cannot refute this simple truth.

So quit the chit-chat son.

the Italian mobsters you mentioned, by virtue of their heinous activities, were a direct threat to the peace, security and well-being of the state and the citizens thereof.

Ibori’s liaisons with illegally armed militants is not a similar threat “to the peace, security and well-being of the state? ? ? ? ? ?”

I laugh. I just laugh.

It seems to me you do not understand the dynamics of power. No responsible sovereign would entertain an immune overlord of such powers within its jurisdiction. There simply cannot be two captains on one ship. Bow down.

The US government and the whole US society KNEW that the mobsters committed murders, gun-running, drug-dealing, and all other offences imaginable but they just could not lay hands on concrete PROOF.

Close your eyes, take a deep breath, count to ten, open your eyes and read your statement above again.

Shocking you do not realize how directly applicable it is to the Nigerian context. We ALL know that Ibori and co are bastardized thieves. What’s missing is the proof.

Now a process has begun to address that and adduce the proof.

And YOU: Pro01 – DARE to complain on the grounds that –

1. Other people have not been arrested

2. The President has a grouse against him

These are comical and laughable kindergarten excuses son.

If you want to ‘prosecute’ IBB simply because you want him to step down his presidential ambition to pave the way for your own smooth sail to the presidential seat, my questions are: why should I be impressed with that? Why should any discerning Nigerian celebrate that?

We should celebrate that because we know that the man deserves to be in Jail.

It is of no concern to us that the person bringing him to justice does so out of spite. That is the law of Karma in action.

You are living in a fool’s paradise if you imagine that all actions against corrupt persons worldwide are initiated for altruistic reasons.

I wonder what part of the elephant of you guys are touching, maybe the anus.

Frankly, your views on this matter are smelly, disgusting and as the majority can confirm, reprehensible, immoral and debasing in the extreme. So if anybody is touching the anus of an elephant here, I would suggest that you are that person: and that you actually dwell right there – deep inside the anus, for your views, your morality and your integrity bear a striking resemblance to faeces.

Any country nitwit can immediately see a glaring missing link: HOW does the official corruption directly ensure premature death of hundreds of thousands?

I will not even bother to respond in detail to this.

This is an emphatic joke: and shows you up as an unrepentant liar and hypocrite.

I only need to produce YOUR OWN QUOTE, where you stated very clearly that you are aware that corruption leads to the death of many people. Here is the quote –

pro01:
I acknowledge the plight of the beleaguered masses that, as you have said, have died and continue to die from the lethal effects of corruption.

Having made the foregoing statement, it beggars belief that you would have the nerve to revert to me demanding proof of the fact that corruption leads to deaths.

This is disgusting – not only because you had already acknowledged this fact, but primarily because it is self-evident that stolen state resources deny critical sectors such as health which thereby cause the loss of lives.

Being that you are blessed with ‘Deep Sight’ I know that you must have seen the “(In Nigeria)” somewhere there, and in any case we are talking about a Nigerian politician charged with offences allegedly committed in Nigeria, so EXTANT Nigerian laws must apply. If corruption is punishable by death in Asia and the Far East, how does that “singularly floor my argument”?

Son, it floors your argument because you asserted that corruption is not as serious as terrorism or murder. I have shown you that in several parts of the world, it is punished with the death penalty – which shows clearly that many people perceive it to be just as reprehensible as the worst crimes. It is pathetic that you would narrow such a jurisprudential issue to Nigeria alone. Since when did our jurisprudence become the benchmark for that which is desirable? ? ? Is it not true that we have a lot to learn from foreigners? And considering the level of corruption in Nigeria, is such not apposite in the circumstances? ? ?

At all events, I needn’t dwell on this because you have already shot yourself in the foot with this admission – You said –

pro01:
Be that as it may, I actually support the death penalty for corruption in Nigeria

And this emphatically shows that YOU recognise that the standards adopted by the far-east nations regarding corruption are desirable in Nigeria!

Why then would you contradict yourself by insisting that only current Nigerian standards should be considered in a discussion of this nature? ? ?

You are violently confused.

At the risk of being accused of playing the Devil’s Advocate, I have to again insist that you cannot PROVE that Ibori “resisted arrest (by) deploying hundreds of illegally armed men”. Do you have the contract documents wherein Ibori hired the so-called armed men in exchange for monetary compensation or whatever?

1. You have already acceded that you are playing the Devil’s advocate. This statement destroys your case as its direct implication is that you are aware that the reverse is the case – but only seek to indulge in pedantic tomfoolery.

2. Your principal was declared wanted. What is a citizen required to do under law when decalred wanted? ? ? You try to argue law without having the least apprehension of what the rule of law connotes. Is it lawful for citizens to resist arrest?

3. You missed the fact that I had anticipated you. I stated clearly that the youths in question were committing an offence by bearing illegal arms and preventing the arrest of a suspect. That alone warrants the deployment of force, contrary to what you said.

4. The failure of the suspect to produce himself as lawfully required contains a heavy inference regarding his involvement in the illegal actions taken to avoid his arrest.

5. At all events, you quite simply know that you are parading a pedantic LIE.

I can hazard a guess as to the answer all of them (including Ibori) would give you regarding why they disobeyed The State and escaped justice: POLITICAL PERSECUTION! Who are you to regard one as justified and the other as not? Who are you to make such a subjective judgment?

I am nobody to make such a “subjective judgement” – and that is exactly why the process initiated will ensure that the courts – and not me – will make an objective judgement.

Do you seek to stop the courts?

Son, you are bordering on incoherence.

Against this premise, is it not logical to deduct that the biggest thief of the lot would be the one with access to the biggest funds? If you negate this reasoning then I’ll be left aghast as to how you passed philosophy 101.

This is frankly absurd.

By your analogy –

1. The Governor of Edo State cannot steal more funds than the Governor of Bayelsa State.

2. The personality and inclination of the individuals is totally irrelevant

3. Most damningly – Delta State is the State with the most respurces and Federal Allocations in Nigeria. So even if we go by your own crude analogy, then it follows that he is at least the Governor who has stolen the most – since no other governor has access to as much funds as he did.

Grow up.

As a prelude, I need to remind you that the basis of declaring someone a ‘thief’ is either that he has been caught in the act (in the context of ordinary, everyday life), or that he has been CONVICTED by a court of competent jurisdiction.

Ha ha. By this pedestrian reasoning IBB never stole a penny – since he has not been convicted. Joker.

You already pointed out in the American-Mobsters example that it is possible for the state and the public to be aware that someone is a criminal even when the proof is yet to be adduced.

At all events your point remains mis-footed as the process commenced (which you are condemning) seeks to bring the matter to a court of competent jurisdiction.

This is the basis upon with I will gleefully prove to you that, contrary to your earnest and rabid posturing, Ibori IS NOT the biggest ‘thief’ in Nigeria. Consider this: Ibori is charged with converting N44b worth of Oceanic bank shares to the use of a private company in which he allegedly has substantial interest.

That is a charge which is subsequent to the main body of 177 charges against him initially brought before the Federal High Court which is currently on appeal.

So quit the chit-chat.

sapeleguy,
to your question as to who is next after ibori, my answer:

let them put ibori behind bars first and then others will follow.

George_D:

sapeleguy,
to your question as to who is next after ibori, my answer:

let them put ibori behind bars first and then others will follow.

Bros - what if it takes another 5 years or he is acquitted, then what?

IPP, Haliburton need to be dealt with right now.

Set up special corruption courts, properly resource it, it is not rocket science. EFCC need to be properly resourced. Right now the fight against corruption is akin to beating an elephant with koboko.

The manner in which we do things is so so wrong, for me this is not about ethnicity, it is about building strong institutions without partiality, fear or favour.

SapeleGuy:

Bros - what if it takes another 5 years or he is acquitted, then what?

IPP, Haliburton need to be dealt with right now.

Set up special corruption courts, properly resource it, it is not rocket science. EFCC need to be properly resourced. Right now the fight against corruption is akin to beating an elephant with koboko.

The manner in which we do things is so so wrong, for me this is not about ethnicity, it is about building strong institutions without partiality, fear or favour.

I completely agree.

Special corruption courts dedicated strictly to corruption, hence stand alone part of the justice system. Ensure quick conclusions on cases by backing with the right legislations that ensures delay tactics are eliminated and judges are very clued up on the law and corruption process/tactics.

Increase EFCC headcount, make it the elite (like FBI) that every intelligent officer aspires to join and ensure those that join are the most intelligent, well paid and protected.

Then set up an internal review team to track and monitor EFCC staff for any misdemeanors (bribe, blackmailable acts etc). No gays that can be blackmailed in the team.

The countdown has begun,Ibori WILL SURELY be jailed in Britain.Boy,did anybody see his photo when he was declared wanted by the EFCC?he looked so frightened and worried.No wonder he scamperred out of the country to Dubai,unfortunately for him however,that was where he met his waterloo.As soon as he's handcuffed and put on a plane to the UK,I'll make a billboard sized print of the photo for strategic distribution.I'm just so loving it seeing Ibori pass through hell prior to being remanded in a UK jail 

sapeleguy,
we're on the same page on that.

rasputinn:

[b]The countdown has begun,Ibori WILL SURELY be jailed in Britain.Boy,did anybody see his photo when he was declared wanted by the EFCC?he looked so frightened and worried.

Where can one see the photo?

James Ibori is an unrepentant common criminal,the best place for him is the jail cell,he has always been a common criminal ALL HIS LIFE

See the following;

[size=14pt]In another instance, Ibori was also convicted for credit card fraud and for handling stolen goods.

According to court documents sent from the UK to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission and obtained by our correspondent in Abuja, Ibori had been charged for theft in the UK, alongside his then girlfriend, Miss Theresa Nkoyo Nakanda.

Ibori, who was working as a cashier at Wickes Store, in Ruslip, London, in 1990, had allowed his girlfriend to pass through his check without paying for the goods she collected.

He was said to have proceeded to dispose of the till receipts in order to cover up the theft.

Both were charged with one-count of theft under Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968, of the UK, and fined £300 British sterling and ordered to pay £450 as costs.

A signed statement by a British police officer, Mr. DC John McDonald, who arrested Nkoyo Ibori in 2007, on suspicion of being involved in money laundering, stated that the EFCC had requested the documents concerning two previous convictions held on record in the UK, for prosecuting their case against Ibori.

Mcdonald stated, “On November 1, 2007 at 2050 hours, I arrested Mrs. Theresa Nkoyo Ibori at the Heathrow Airport on suspicion of being concerned in money laundering. She was later conveyed to the Police Station at Heathrow Airport.

“During the procedure of booking in Mrs. Ibori at the police station, it is routine to obtain copy of her fingerprints, these fingerprints are obtained on the computer-based National Automated Fingerprints Identification System.”

McDonald noted that should the fingerprints obtained match with any already held on police national fingerprint database, then a report would be produced in due course.

“As a result of Mrs. Ibori’s fingerprints being taken, a report was produced stating that the fingerprints were an exact match to a set of fingerprints held for an individual, Theresa Nakanda, under the Police reference number 134269/90F,” the statement read.

The documents made available exclusively to The Punch, further stated that the prints were obtained on August 28, 1990, at Uxbridge Police Station, adding that Nakanda was Mrs. Ibori’s maiden name.

Continuing, it confirmed that Ibori was on February 7, 1992 at the Isleworth Crown Court in the UK, convicted of one-count of handling stolen goods.

“The circumstances of that charge relate to Mr. Ibori’s possession of a stolen American Express Card belonging to another knowing or believing that card to be stolen,” it added.

It noted that the original arrest for that offence took place on September 12, 1991 at Euston Rail Station, stressing that Ibori was fined £100 and ordered to pay £50 as costs.

“During the procedure following the arrest, Ibori provided the address of 3, Atherstone Road, Harrow, Middlesex.

“I can confirm that as a result of documentation in my possession that James Ibori and Miss Theresa Nakanda once owned this property,” McDonald added[/size]

stealing runs in the blood. once a thief, always a thief-unless there's a genuine change of heart.

Deep Sight:

I will not even bother to respond in detail to this.

This is an emphatic joke: and shows you up as an unrepentant liar and hypocrite.

I only need to produce YOUR OWN QUOTE, where you stated very clearly that you are aware that corruption leads to the death of many people. Here is the quote –

pro01:
I acknowledge the plight of the beleaguered masses that, as you have said, have died and continue to die from the lethal effects of corruption.

Having made the foregoing statement, it beggars belief that you would have the nerve to revert to me demanding proof of the fact that corruption leads to deaths.

This is disgusting – not only because you had already acknowledged this fact, but primarily because it is self-evident that stolen state resources deny critical sectors such as health which thereby cause the loss of lives.

Son, it floors your argument because you asserted that corruption is not as serious as terrorism or murder. I have shown you that in several parts of the world, it is punished with the death penalty – which shows clearly that many people perceive it to be just as reprehensible as the worst crimes. It is pathetic that you would narrow such a jurisprudential issue to Nigeria alone. Since when did our jurisprudence become the benchmark for that which is desirable? ? ? Is it not true that we have a lot to learn from foreigners? And considering the level of corruption in Nigeria, is such not apposite in the circumstances? ? ?

At all events, I needn’t dwell on this because you have already shot yourself in the foot with this admission – You said –

pro01:
Be that as it may, I actually support the death penalty for corruption in Nigeria

And this emphatically shows that YOU recognise that the standards adopted by the far-east nations regarding corruption are desirable in Nigeria!

Why then would you contradict yourself by insisting that only current Nigerian standards should be considered in a discussion of this nature? ? ?

You are violently confused.

[size=18pt]STOP! The END[/size]

Winner By KO.

Technical Knockout!!! 



pro01, I warned you about his logic process. I know how to spot people with such gems of a process. 

Nigerian ruling elites derserves worse than what the french ruling elites got during the french revolution.They all deserve to face the guillotine and ibori should be one of the first to do so.

It is only stack fools with tribal indoctrinated minds or collaborators that will ever defend the actions of any corrupt nigerian politicians and as far as records and proofs are concern,all of them are corrupt.They are worse than the nazis.

Tribes men are of the gone age.