[size=15pt][color=#770077]PETER CONTRADICTS JESUS (PBUH) REGARDING HIMSELF AS IF THE ONLY WAY:" "Jesus
saith unto him, Z am the way, the truth, and the life. no man cometh unto the father but by
me. JOHN 14:6 Contradicted by: "Then Peter opened his mouth . . . But IN EVERY NATION
he that feareth him (God), and works righteousness, IS ACCEPTED with him (God)." ACTS
10:34-3[/size]
[/color]

@cgift; « #285 on: Today at 08:48:38 AM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 03:09:16 AM
I hope everyone is reading this guy? he said salvation and jumped to sin,

Why wont you be confused ? Its not your fault.[/Quote]No where i said am confused here.


[Quote]Thats why aletheia said that quran's concept of sin,[/Quote]While sin is a crime, it is the disobedience to an established law.


[Quote]love, righteousness lacks clarity and genuiness and hope is grossly flawed.[/Quote]These are the antidote of sin. You cant give impression that you wanna talk about antidote, but say everything else but nothing about antidote itself. Thats what aletheia did about salvation that he mentioned, but spoke about sin instead. I am sure that you agreed with him, your reason for thinking that you guys are in the right.


[Quote]You nopuqeater really have no hope of the future cos there is nothing that cleanses you of your sins [b](both origina[/b]l and your own,[/Quote]While i do not bear the burden of someone else before me, no one before me will bear my burden. My own sin, is simply wiped out with sincere repentance and seeking forgiveness. This is the best of all forms of MERCY. I know somebody had to loose his life for your type of mercy which i reject as heartlessness from all of you involved.


[Quote]nothing gives you the ability to stay righteous,[/Quote]My struggle against evil of my heart inclination (Jihad fi Nafs) and Protection from my Creator, are the two ingredients. Yours may involve death of a "salesman". I do not want it.


[Quote]nothing gives you the assurance of salvation.[/Quote]Mercy, Forgiveness are enough to act as my safety away from Hellfire.


[Quote]If Mohammad did not know what allah was going to do with him, I then wonder what hope you have.[/Quote]Muhammad [as] is assured of Paradise, because he makes intercession for all believers, and the largest group of believers are Muslims of Muhammad.


[Quote]Let me remind you, this cyber-war is not Jihad or fatwa o  Grin So, dont think you have the same rewards as getting on a commercial plane with some bombs strapped to your loins and blowing it up.  Grin This cyber-war cannot assure you of your lewd and endless sex with how many virgins and endless drinking of wine in your "dream jannah".  Ashawo paradise Grin So, my advice, get on the next plane and cut some jews down  Grin (kidding)[/Quote]While many Jews [proper term Children of Israel] are Muslims, i do not act irrationally like what you have just said. This is what is in your heart, the reason you spoke it. On earth here, as your Bible said, more muslim women are virgins than that of christians. This is a sign of what what we dont see of the women of the day of Judgement. My dialogue with you, is part of my Jihad. My fighting myself and preventing my heart from doing evil is part of my Jihad. My preventing a man or people to come to my home and violate my women, etc and dishonor anything of anyone, in my presence, is part of my Jihad.
Those muslims who kill innocent souls, non combatants, young people, old people women, men who are not fighting you as preventing you to practice islam, not stopping you go to the mosque, those muslims have transgressed the Order/Command of Allah. Allah says that taking a life is similar to wiping out the whole of mankind. It is obvious that for us who believe in creation, Adam was just a single soul, and see the many that have came out of him, men and women including his cloned from him, mate, Eve. And if you save a soul from perishing, it is as if you save the whole of mankind. Apply the same rule above to this. I know that it will hurt your head to think. Just try it. by Allah, my reward is full.



[Quote]
Today, snakes are pets. and humans dont crush their heads, at least not all of them. Some snakes are imported to fight the rodent epidemic, or problems that farmers have. Are snakes all bad? Are snakes devils? Of course, those who own them as pets will say no. And by the way, when you intentionally inconvenient a creation that does not bother you, thats a sin. Can a snake in the whole that you pee in not jut strike out at you, and hurt you? Dont pee in a snake hole is a sound advise.

Even my 4 year old daughter will  cringe at this hogwash of a response. [/Quote]Are some pets, snakes? Yes. Are some snakes, pets? Yes.



[Quote]Grin I could pee in a hole of rats abi ?  Grin[/Quote]Obviously snakes are more deadly, by their bits of stangulations, or injections of poison than RATs. No?



[Quote]

if you know what disease one wing carries, you will find the antidote, on the other. that reality. And many muslims, and am one of those who practice it.

al-ilah a-koro-ba !!![/Quote]Maybe you know better than the findings that it is true that insects if one side of it (Wing) has a disease on it, the antidote of it is on the other, already.



[Quote]
the first bold tells us that Jesus of the Bible was a sinner,


Where in the bible did you read that ? Or you want to quote the Lords prayer again ? Grin[/uote]I said in my response to what aletheia posted, that what i bolded in his response is a proof that Jesus of the bible was a sinner. Incidentally, aletheia posted a Biblical verse for his argument and that verse proofs that jesu of the Bible is a sinner. is it clear to you now? Let just say that a verse of the Bible said the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, according to you. Then that was a proof. God Almighty does not die. You believe this as well. So God is not a sinner, but Jesus is and a proof in addition that Jesus is not God. Go ask your church leader that a muslim said this to you and hear him be confounded. he will try to get out of it, but the noose is already tightened around him, just like way you turn a serious thing to a joke here.



[Quote]In case you might have missed it: i will still bring my last post to the fore:

You obviously dont believe in all that Jesus said according to the Bible right[/Quote]I believe the part that they reported that Jesus said he was a servent of God Who sent him. I dibelieve the part that they say that Jesus said that he is God. Is my position clear? Is your clearwhere of you can tell me how he can be God and servant of God Who sent him? I wanna read it. Seriously. Get advise from your pastor first. Tell him is a follower of Muhammad (AS).


[Quote] Now, when Jesus said is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that nobody comes to the Father except by Him. He states it explicitly that Salvation is found in no one else ut only through Him. Now you have a problem with that right ?[/Quote]I have a problem with it for sure. First those who already dead, before him or before he made that statement, one of them must have been in safety away from Hell. How about Noah? Or Abraham? Or Moses? Which one of them is lower in rank to Jesus of the Bible? God through Noah destroyed the people on earth, except those who followed Noah. God said Abraham is His Personal Friend and He made a Covenant with him. Through that the so called 3 Monotheistic religions take roots. Moses spoke to God, many times and under him, God destroyed King Pharaoh and his army, and killed many nations so that israel can be established. Tell me what Jesus did to make him better an be able to save any of these men before God Almighty Who by Islam the ONLY SAVIOR?



[Quote]Jesus came at about 600 years ealier than Mohammed and operated His ministry for about 3 years on earth and the Bible is what captured all of His sayings while on earth. Now, if I have quoted Jesus saying for instance

John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day and this:[/Quote]The operative phrase is in bold. I Nopuqeater never saw jesus. So that excluded me from his flocks. You too have that same choice. The verse spoke only of a short history, his time and up to at best before the advent of the last of messengers and prophets, Sayiddina Muhammad (AS).



[Quote]John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. and also this:[/Quote]The world here meant the bloodlines of Israel, who are at this time of Jesus speech, Judea and israel nations. But during the spring of the well under Moses, Yahweh called each family, a nation, hence there were 12 nations from among the children of israel. But more importantly, Jesus said "I am sent but to only the lost sheep of israel" This proofs that he was not a messenger to african, or asians, or americans, or anyone else except his people of 12 nations, the reason he said to his disciples never to enter anyone's home except preaching to the children of Israel, and never truly did of his own. How many verses argued that John 8;12 is incorrect? You cant have it both ways in matters where the Bible is on two sides of the argument, one of them will have to be false, at least. No normal person, as an example can be a real mother (woman) and be a real father (man) to a child. Jesus cant be saying dont preach to anyone else, and yet the light of the world. Impossible. It begs all reality, logic, practicality, you name it, its in there.



[Quote]Matthew 14: 15

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.[/Quote]Every Jew believes he or she is special, as being son of God. Look inside the Bible; Moses was made God to Aaron. Jesus responded, "Does not your Book (OT) say that you are Gods, or even sons of God"? Then another part of the Bible spoke about the "SONS OF GOD" married daughters of men. You dont know any of these? They are in your Book. Look in it. I am sure you turn Jesus to begotten later, if not already, below. Yet the same Yahweh was the father of many children, even Jacob, His special son long before Jesus was even dreamt about, in around about way, without any direct verse from the Old Testament. Immanuel, you people argued that was him. I have asked many times, and am asking you here, show me how, even use some person calling him by it, in some kind of unintentional which could have proven that the prophesy was talking about him.
Let me tell you what i meant; Surah Lahab was revealed in Makka talking about Abi Lahab will die as a disbeliever, meaning he will never accept Islam. He was told by many who knew him that look your nephew said that you will die as a disbeliever of the religion he said God gave him for us. Disproof him that he is a liar, since this is what you say. Just enter islam now and leave it right away. You knoiw, even in front of these people, he could easily have said, "You are my witness[es], i enter islam. You are my witness[es], i am leaving islam". he never did it this way. Not one time. Not even to himself, alone. Allah the Almighty blocked his heart never to go that deep. Did anyone ever called Jesus, by mistake, unintentional, "immanuel"? If not then the Bible failed, again, unless there was a different meaning to Immanuel and a different person has already lived itunder that different meaning, since God cant be on earth? Dont ask me who or what, since I am just crushing your arguments, I am not about to make any suggestion. cgist, dont be an Abu Lahab.



[Quote]And then you come back to cunter all of His sayings that they are not correct and all of that, I then will ask you this simple question:

Seeing that the Quran did not capture even 2% of Jesus' ministry on earth,[/Quote]What is the essence of what Jesus did on earth, his ministry? Was it the eating, sleeping and the going here and there? No. His ministry was not more than steering those followers, believers to the true OT, and the aded materials he was given and to say God is One, is Lord and Lord of all, and who ever worships anything else will never enter paradise, and to say there is last Messenger to come whose name is Ahmad. His miracles were signs that he was a messenger, a prophet and servant of God, Who permits him to do them, the reason he said "of my own power, i can do nothing".



[Quote]on what/which authority and against what source are you raising your objections ? Do you have any reference material in your Quran or Hadiths that capture the activities and events of Jesus' ministry from the age of 30 to 33 ?[/Quote]First if you disagree with my above statement, then lets know in your response. Jesus am sure is not God. Is not son of God. The Quran is very clear that Jesus was a prophet and a messenger to his bloodline, alone and not anyone else. The role of Jesus, in miracle was disclosed by his Lord Who made his birth part of miracles on him, his defending his mother from the crib, a one time baby speech which he never repeated until he was able to speak, tells us that he was in the mercy of his Lord, his Creator Who sent him, a slave. I can just tell you to read his miracles, Maidah, Maryam, and many others, including Imran. Read the who Quran. If it is about Jesus, then go to the indexes. You will find everything Jesus, as Isa bin Maryam (AS).



[Quote]This is my submission: if you dont have any records of his ministry's events, how then can you claim that what he has said is wrong and not correct?[/Quote]I have already said you should look into the pages of Quran. But am sure, as a person, you must have problems with one of the two verses here; Bible: Jesus is God. Bible Jesus is Servant sent by God
                           Bible: Jesus is Yahweh. Bible: Jesus said his God is Eloi.
                           Bible: Jesus is all Powerful. Bible: Jesus said he cant do anything of his own power.
                           Bible: Jesus is peaceful. Bible: Jesus as Yahweh, he killed nations under Noah, Moses, and other.
                           Bible: Jesus is dead as human. Bible Jesus as Yahweh must never die.
                           Bible: Jesus cant do nothing. Bible: Jesus as Yahweh, the Word created everything.
There so many discrepancies about Jesus is this, and at the same time the Bible records exactly the opposite.



[Quote]Undecided I would have expected that the Quran would cover all of the activities of Jesus' ministries, words, actions, and events for only then can you come and start comparing stories and records before making valuable judgements on whether  Jesus' stories are mere fables or not in comparison to the same stories but ascaptured in the quran. The only thing I see here is that the words of Mohammad has made him an undisputable lunatic because they are widely at variance with all written historical records -e.g. how can he say that Noah's flood took place in Moses' days (Sura 7:136, compare 7:59ff)? Was he high on drugs or what?  Furthermore, he could not even substantiate his claim on the reception of the quran which made him to give 3 different accounts:[/Quote]You claimed that the Quran said Noah's flood took place in the time of Moses. I wonder how you came to that conclusion, so I present the Quran from 7/130 to 7/137 just to show that you incorrect;
7:130 Sahih International:
And We certainly seized the people of Pharaoh with years of famine and a deficiency in fruits that perhaps they would be reminded.

7:131 Sahih International
But when good came to them, they said, "This is ours [by right]." And if a bad [condition] struck them, they saw an evil omen in Moses and those with him. Unquestionably, their fortune is with Allah , but most of them do not know.

7:132 Sahih International
And they said, "No matter what sign you bring us with which to bewitch us, we will not be believers in you."

7:133 Sahih International
So We sent upon them the flood and locusts and lice and frogs and blood as distinct signs, but they were arrogant and were a criminal people.

7:134 Sahih International
And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel."

7:135 Sahih International
But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word.

7:136 Sahih International
So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them.

7:137 Sahih International
And We caused the people who had been oppressed to inherit the eastern regions of the land and the western ones, which We had blessed. And the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel because of what they had patiently endured. And We destroyed [all] that Pharaoh and his people were producing and what they had been building. now cgist from 130 through 137, do you now know that it is pharaoh and his people that was been spoken about here?



[Quote]1. We are first told that allah came to Mohammed in the form of a man and that Mohammad saw him Sura 53:2-18)[/Quote]
53:2 Sahih International
Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,

53:3 Sahih International
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

53:4 Sahih International
It is not but a revelation revealed,

53:5 Sahih International
Taught to him by one intense in strength -

53:6 Sahih International
One of soundness. And[b] he rose to [his] true form[/b]

53:7 Sahih International
While[b] he was in the higher [part of the] horizon.
[/b]
53:8 Sahih International
Then[b] he approached and descended[/b]

53:9 Sahih International
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer.

53:10 Sahih International
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed.

53:11 Sahih International
The heart did not lie [about] what it saw.

53:12 Sahih International
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?

53:13 Sahih International
And he certainly saw him in another descent

53:14 Sahih International
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary -

53:15 Sahih International
Near it is the Garden of Refuge -

53:16 Sahih International
When there covered the Lote Tree that which covered [it].

53:17 Sahih International
The sight [of the Prophet] did not swerve, nor did it transgress [its limit].

53:18 Sahih International
He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.[/Quote[In the above, we read Allah talking about Muhammad (as) receiving the message, and the one who is pasing the message to him was Jibril (as) who Allah uses (he) for. Muhammad (as) saw Jibril for the first time in the cave of Hira, when he received the 1st 5 verses of Surah Alaq (Human Creation). When Muhammad ran out after te incident, he reported that Jibril occupied the whole horizen, in his angelic form. Lets stop here for a moment and go to the mission after this firts encounter. Muhammad saw Jibril, and even many times the companions say Jibril later in Madina (Hadith of Jibril, "he came to teach you your religion", and the battle of tabuk or other in Madina. In all these places and times, Jibril never came as he did on the occasion of Isra wa Miraj which verses 1-18 above is talking about. In this event, Jibril appeared in his fullest Angelic form, where the Lote Tree of the farthest is. Muhammad was the only creation allowed to go beyond this point. Ever. Now, the revelation of Quran is 100% from Allah, Te Speaker. This you can deny. We in Islam accepts it for ourselves. Now the messenger who delievered the verses of Quran to Muhammad was Jibril, for Jibril was an errant runner, a messenger. The only four verses that came to Muhammad directly without Jibril too place on this occasion of Muhammad in heavens, passing farther than the farthest Lote Tree location. These were the last 4 verses of Chapter 2.

We will now see that Allah used (He), once and it was for Himself and for others [jibril and muhammad], were lower case h.



[Quote]2. Then we are told that it was the Holy Spirit that came to Mohammad (Sura 16:102; 26:192-194)[/Quote]Jibril is nicknamed holyspirit, along with other nick names. By the way Humans, Jinns, and Angels, each group has a spirit, different from the spirit in each of the others. Human spirit is different from the spirit in the Jinn, which is different from the spirit of the Angels, which is different from the spirit of Man. But each is a spirit type created by Allah. It is the human type of spirit that was breath to the first man, Adam, same human type of spirit came forth from Allah which we call Jesus the son of Mary, a messeneger, a prophet, a servant and a messiah to the chilren of srael who was expecting one.



[Quote]3. The last and the most popular version is that it was the angel Gabriel who delivered the Quran to him (Sura 2:97). May be angel Gabriel is your own the Holy Spirit  Undecided[/Quote]Jibril is also known as holy spirit. Just like Jesus is known as Messiah of the children of israel, yet, a messenger, a prophet.



[Quote]So, how can i take that kind of man and his book seriously?[/Quote]this book is not for you.it does not call you. Ask Cat Stevens, a big time rocker in 1970s. Ask many others, including Yusuf Estes, or Hamza Yusuf, and others. your heart is disease the reason you cant be call yet. then you will see many things Jesus didnt teach the disciples because they couldnt bear it, because they dont have the faith to handle it, until mankind got the Apostle of Allah Muhammad bin Abdallah who led to all things, speaking, teaching, correcting, repeating all that he heard from his Lord, and Muhammad abides with me by THE QURAN and authentic hadith whih is not going against the Quran.



[Quote]Let me summarize:

If you have the records of Jesus' sayings, actions, and events during his earthly ministry, produce them and lets start our discussions from there. If you dont, you are restricted to what the Bible has recorded that He said and did. And if that is the case, please, I beg of you, never disclaim anything Jesus said again when it is lifted from the Bible cos you dont have any proof of what He said outside of the Bible else you will only be showing yourself as silly, ignorant and arguing for the sake of it without facts.[/Quote]you have every thing in the Quran, all his truth.



[Quote]John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. Jesus says emphatically He is the Light of the World. . Follow Him, he will reveal his love into your heart. You have never experienced true love before, taste and see that the Lord Jesus is good. Experience Him, you will be hooked and wished you had known Him earlier.[/Quote]And the above nullifies The Another Comforter. It is either the writer of one of these two verses was a liar, or both were. Is Jesus the light of the world? No. My proof: He preached and instructed preaching to the israelites and no one else. Muhammad on the other hand had all forms of mankind as his companions, Jews Abdullah bin Abdulsalaam, arabs, non areabs; Europeans; Shuaib Al Rum, Africans one of them is Bilah bin Rabah, as the example for it, Asiatic people: Salman Al Farsi. Muhammad took the bold steps, as Allah instructed him to invite all mankind, so he wrote to all the powerful kings and rulers and emperors of his days, inviting them so that automatically, he subjects will begin to come in. Thats a sign of worldwide invitation to a path, if you cant see it from the eclectic group that boldly was his companions (ra).




[Quote]Remember, Jesus is Alive!!! Mohammad is Dead!!!!![/Quote]Here is my reminder; Among those who are not dead among men include Jesus, Elijah on the chariot, Melchezdekeh, and we have Satan from the jinn.

Among thoe who died are Muhammad, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus died for some time, according to you.

Your rejoinder is muddled up. I cant read it because you have quoted or unquoted your responses wrongly. Could you please correct that so that I can see explicitly which is your response in all of what you have written.

I will however take the pleasure of recapitulating key highlights of my submission:

The only thing I see here is that the words of Mohammad has made him an undisputable lunatic because they are widely at variance with all written historical records -e.g. how can he say that Noah's flood took place in Moses' days (Sura 7:136, compare 7:59ff)? Was he high on drugs or what? Furthermore, he could not even substantiate his claim on the reception of the quran which made him to give 3 different accounts:

1. We are first told that allah came to Mohammed in the form of a man and that Mohammad saw him Sura 53:2-18)
2. Then we are told that it was the Holy Spirit that came to Mohammad (Sura 16:102; 26:192-194)
3. The last and the most popular version is that it was the angel Gabriel who delivered the Quran to him (Sura 2:97). May be angel Gabriel is your own the Holy Spirit Undecided

Again, I cant that kind of man and his book seriously?

Also, take time to read through the image shown here. It will form a very good bed story for you - one of what you might regard as a conspiracy but which remains what will change some people's views forever:

I will however take the pleasure of recapitulating key highlights of my submission:

The only thing I see here is that the words of Mohammad has made him an undisputable lunatic because they are widely at variance with all written historical records -e.g. how can he say that Noah's flood took place in Moses' days (Sura 7:136, compare 7:59ff)? Was he high on drugs or what? Furthermore, he could not even substantiate his claim on the reception of the quran which made him to give 3 different accounts:

Now this is madness how would anyone read 7:136 and conclude that it spoke of Noah's flood, no I believe those with small sense can think better than that, it clearly refers to the drowning of Pharaoh and his men not the flood of Noah that the crazy bible that claims occured globally which common sense has proven utterly wrong, the same bible that claims tha between Adam and Jesus there is betewen 10-20 generation adding up to over 6000 years of existence mad bible indeed where senseless writing fraught with falsehood are hanging everywhere cgift it seem paul has given you the gift of lying and deceiving.

1. We are first told that allah came to Mohammed in the form of a man and that Mohammad saw him Sura 53:2-18) Lie, it spoke of gabrial
2. Then we are told that it was the Holy Spirit that came to Mohammad (Sura 16:102; 26:192-194)---the holy spirit is refereed to as gabriel
3. The last and the most popular version is that it was the angel Gabriel who delivered the Quran to him (Sura 2:97). May be angel Gabriel is your own the Holy Spirit Undecided no ignoramus it has always and only been Gabriel right from time


unlike the useles bible which gives the following teaching's

ALCOHOL: devilish advice in God's (?) Book? (a) "Alcohol is for people who are DYING,
for those who are in MISERY. Let them drink and FORGET their poverty and unhappiness."
(From the "Good News Bible In Today's English" PROVERBS 31:6-7 Alcohol recommended
in preference to water!(b) "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's
sake and thine often infirmities 1 TIMOTHY 5:23 What does the AA (Alcoholics Anonymous)
say? (c) Alcohol is the Devil's handiwork says the . . . Holy Qur’ân 5:93

ABSURDITIES: in the Book of God (?) the Holy Bible (a) A TALKING ass. NUMBERS 22:27-28 (b) FOUR footed fowls. LEVITICUS 11:20 (c) Birth of females a DOUBLE pollution LEVITICUS 12:1,2,5 (d) Shamgar KILLS 600 with an ox goad JUDGES 3:31 (e) Samson KILLS A THOUSAND with the jaw bone of a donkey. JUDGES 15:15-16 (f) A SEVEN HEADED leopard REVELATION 13:1-2 (g) To eat SHIT and drink PISS. 2 KINGS 18:27 and ISAIAH 36:12 (h) DUNG on your faces. MALACHI 2:3 (i) To eat cake with SHIT. EZEKIEL 4:12-15 (j) Samson has SEX with a LovePeddler in Gaza JUDGES 16:1 (k) Ruth COHABITS with Boaz in the barn. RUTH 3:4-l5 (1) David SLEEPS with a young virgin l KINGS 1 1:1,3

INCEST: "Sexual intercourse between two persons who are too closely related." (New Collins Dictionary). For example, between father and daughter, son and mother, father-in-law and daughter-in-law, brother and sister, etc. INCEST IN GOD'S BOOK (?) BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS DAUGHTERS: (a) "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him , "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him last night. now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him , "In this way both of Lot's daughters became PREGNANT by their father. " GENESIS 19:33-35 (From the "Good News Bible- In Today's English". In the older Versions, like the King James and the Roman Catholic Versions, "SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" is vaguely described as "COLLECTING THE SEED OF OUR FATHER." INCEST BETWEEN MOTHER AND SON: (b) "While Jacob (Israel) was living in the land, Reuben (his firstborn, his eldest son) had SEXUAL

INTERCOURSE with Bilhah, his father's concubine. GENESIS 35:22. The older Versions of the Bible, use the word, "lay" for SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW: (c) "When Judah saw her (Tamar, his daughter-in-law), he thought she was a prostitute, because she had covered her face. "He went over to her at the side of the road and said, "ALL RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?" (He did not know that she was his daughter-in-law) {The words in parenthesis i.e. within brackets from He did not know to daughter-in-law are not in the original Hebrew manuscripts. They are the editors g loss.}

"She said, what will you give me?" (To have sex with me) 'He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT FROM MY FLOCK "She said, "All right, if you will give me something to keep as a pledge until you send the ,goat. ' . . He gave them (the pledges) to her. Then had INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant GENESIS 38: 15-18 (Quoted from the ''Good News Bible". CONCUBINE and WIFE are synonymous terms in the Bible. Look for it in the index under ''KETURAH" (the third wife of Abraham). Out of this incestuous relationship between a father-in-law and his daughter-in-law, twins were born, who were destined to become the great-grand-fathers of Jesus Christ see Matthew 1:3; "And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar . . . INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER (d) " . . he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused with Tamar in "c" above,, and said unto her, Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister. "And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God's own heart) do not force me . . . "But he would not listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister). " 2 Samuel 13:5-14 WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS! (e) So they set up a tent for Absalom (another son of King David) on the palace roof, and in the sight of everyone, Absalom went in and had INTERCOURSE with his father's concubines " 2 SAMUELS 16:22

". . . In the sight of every one" is rendered in the King James Version as "in the sight of all Israel." This is a fulfillment of God's promise to David the King:

"Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee (David) out of thine own house, and I will take THY WIVES before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor (actually thy son) and he shall lie (have sexual intercourse) with thy wives in the sight of sun (for the whole world to watch the fun).

For thou didst it secretly (with Bath-Sheba the wife of Uriah): but I will do this thing before ALL Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11-12

You can well guess where "Penthouse" and "Playboy" got their inspiration from. Wherefrom if not from the Book of Books?

(f) For other various types of incest see LEVITICUS 18:8-18. 20:11-14 and 17-21. Concubine seems synonymous to the word wife in the Bible. Look for this reference in index under "Keturah" the third wife of Abraham.

^^^The usual Muslim obsession with things of a sexual nature (not surprising, given that your "paradise" is a place of continuous fornication). Keep deceiving yourself, your prophet was guilty of every one of the sins you have highlighted above so what point are you seeking to make?
The Bible plainly describes the sins of men. . .and points out the way of salvation: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God.

@nopuqeater:
I asked you 3 straightforward questions based on your own words:

aletheia:

#1. Why did the Jews say Adonai (Lord) instead of Yahweh?
#2. What is the meaning of Eloi? Did your prophet describe his god as Eloi?
#3. Again the question you are avoiding: Where in your qur'an is the name Eloi? Does it occur among the 99 names of your god?

And you can only respond with puerile words that amount to nothing more than fig leaves to cover your unclothedness. Repent and turn to Jesus and He will clothe you in fine white linen that has been washed clean by His Blood.

nopuqeater:

@Aletheia: #283 on: Yesterday at 07:59:11 PM »Am neither a jew now a follower of Jesus who died on the cross. I am a hanifan, muslima and not a mushrikin. And to sum up your ignorance, your quizzing me here is similar, exactly like a fanti from Ghana saying to an Igbo man that where is oluwa the God, in a book written in Igbo language with so many Chukwu and Chineke in it. The igbo man will know that he is being challenged by ignorance.

^
How did this post of your's answer my questions? If you don't know, be gracious enough to accept that you don't know. So you agree that you are not a Jew (don't you know that salvation is of the Jews!) and don't know why they say Adonai instead of Yahweh, but yet try to pass it off as if you knew what you were talking about!

nopuqeater:

@Aletheia: you see that the Jews' say Adonai, while you are stuck with yahweh, and jesus said Eloi.

^
The reason you are avoiding my questions is that no where in your qur'an does the name Eloi appear. If it did you would have dismissed me long ago by providing the verse but you keep fleeing from the question. Your use of Eloi is nothing but a clutching at straws to validate your god by going outside of the qur'an to look for names for him!
Yahweh Elohim Adonai the Father of Yeshua Ha'Maschiach has revealed to us His Name in the Holy Bible and His Name is exalted above all.

nopuqeater:

I hope everyone is reading this guy? he said salvation and jumped to sin, reminding of Lord's prayer (title}, the first line started with father, from a man who said he was a servant sent, at some point in his earthly life.

^^Again you emphasized my point that Islam has a false concept of God, man and sin. Did you think salvation is exclusive of sin. Sinners are need of salvation! I will once again ask you a question that you have also avoided answering for a long time now. How do you reconcile Perfect Justice and Perfect Forgiveness?
I hope you realize Perfect Justice demands that every infraction no matter how little or insignificant must be punished. The answer to the conundrum is by a Perfect Substitutionary Sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20, The soul that sinneth, it shall die, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

There is no distinction with God as to small and great sins. The penalty in the earth, in human courts, may vary, as with adultery and touching a dead body, but the final verdict for anyone who sins before the God of the Bible is guilt. The penalty must be paid.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin came by Adam, and death came with sin. Everyone is a sinner in some way, so everyone faces the same final penalty-- death.

God gives the verdict in the Bible, Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord.

nopuqeater:

And muslims will end up in Paradise (jannah) after all of the above, while christians shall end up only in heaven. Allah is indeed Most Merciful. i need not even tell you anything else.

^^Is that what is called a Freudian slip. I thought hitherto you were adamant that Christians will be in Hell. Heaven is the presence of God. And Christians are already in Heaven, for Jesus Himself says: The Kingdom of Heaven is in you. As for that "paradise" of yours it entered by way of Hell and you have no assurance that once you are in Hell, you will get out.

nopuqeater:

Hey human, unless you are demented, which of the Two would you love as your Lord, since you will never be perfect, according to the Bible? I prefer a Merciful God, rather than the One Who will never forgive me for the smallest of mistakes, yet He knew that I will never be perfect. The Biblical God went to far, according to the christians from Animal blood, to Human blood just to satisfy Himself. Yet Allah Will forgive you all your sins without any killing.

#1. My confession is simple: I love Jesus of Nazareth. He is Lord and Saviour.
#2. Yahweh is Holy. He cannot abide even the slightest microscopic blot of impurity unlike al-ilah who only pretends to be holy (a word that appears only once in your qur'an just like salvation) and overlooks any sin so long as you recite shahada. Yahweh demands repentance not meaningless recitations and ritual acts of devotion that do not transform a man.
#3. Yahweh is Merciful, for He has provided Himself salvation to me from my sins. His forgiveness is Complete and Perfect unlike your god who hasn't made up his mind whether to leave you burning in Hell (not that he even has power to send you there in the first place!).
Hasn't it occurred to you yet that perfect forgiveness entails not even entering Hell but your imperfectly forgiving false god assures you that not one of you will but enter into the Fire.
#4. Forgiveness is available to ALL through belief in the One Who Alone Can Save-Jesus of Nazareth. Repent therefore and believe in Jesus to receive complete forgiveness.

nopuqeater:

. . .Where is the formula from Jesus? Yet, above the Biblical God that will punish you, and you alone for your sins, now turns to be God that has a son that He will sacrifice for your sin. Where is the wife of Biblical God, who is the mother of the son, otherwise, the child is a naughty person. And the parents are entities of adultery.

^
#1. The "formula" from Jesus? Only believe on Him and you will be saved.
#2. Where is the wife of Biblical God? As a man thinks in his heart so is he. Carnally-minded, so carnal thinking. The Bible is clear as to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. You 've read it many times, now read it again in humility, and ask the True God to show you the Truth.

KJV: I Cor 15:1-4. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

if cgift is a smart, he could have separated his own words, and know that my responses are beow his jokes. well here you go since you are not the only audience that will read this dialogue.

[Quote]the first bold tells us that Jesus of the Bible was a sinner,
Where in the bible did you read that ? Or you want to quote the Lords prayer again ? Grin[/Quote]I said in my response to what aletheia posted, that what i bolded in his response is a proof that Jesus of the bible was a sinner. Incidentally, aletheia posted a Biblical verse for his argument and that verse proofs that Jesus of the Bible is a sinner. is it clear to you now? Let just say that a verse of the Bible said the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, according to you. Then that was a proof. God Almighty does not die. You believe this as well. So God is not a sinner, but Jesus is and it is an additional proof is that Jesus is not God. Go ask your church leader that a muslim said this to you and see him frozen with a logical, direct and clear answer, something this serious against Jesus should have a well known answer from Jesus, who couldnt do anything on his own power, the reason he was killed because rejected him, maybe, from your Bible. he will try to get out of it, but the noose is already tightened around him, just like the way you turn a serious thing to a joke here.




[Quote]In case you might have missed it: i will still bring my last post to the fore:

You obviously dont believe in all that Jesus said according to the Bible right[/Quote]I believe the part that they reported that Jesus said he was a servent of God Who sent him. I disbelieve the part that they say that Jesus said that he is God. Is my position clear? Yours is clear, to. Can you tell me how he can be God and servant of God Who sent him? I wanna read it. Seriously. Get advise from your pastor first. Tell him am a follower of Muhammad (AS).





[Quote]Now, when Jesus said is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that nobody comes to the Father except by Him. He states it explicitly that Salvation is found in no one else ut only through Him. Now you have a problem with that right ?[/Quote]I have a problem with it for sure. First those who already dead, before him or before he made that statement, one of them must have been in safety away from Hell. How about Noah? Or Abraham? Or Moses? Which one of them is lower in rank to Jesus of the Bible? God through Noah destroyed the people on earth, except those who followed Noah. God said Abraham is His Personal Friend and He made a Covenant with him. Through that the so called 3 Monotheistic religions take roots. Moses spoke to God, many times and under him, God destroyed King Pharaoh and his army, and killed many nations so that israel can be established. Tell me what Jesus did to make him better an be able to save any of these men before God Almighty Who by Islam the ONLY SAVIOR?





[Quote]Jesus came at about 600 years ealier than Mohammed and operated His ministry for about 3 years on earth and the Bible is what captured all of His sayings while on earth. Now, if I have quoted Jesus saying for instance

John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day and this:
[/Quote]The operative phrases are in bold. I Nopuqeater never saw Jesus. So that excluded me from his flocks. You too have that same choice. The verse spoke only of a short history, his time and up to the time, at best just before the advent of the last of messengers and prophets, Sayiddina Muhammad (AS).





[Quote]
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. and also this:[/Quote]The world here meant the bloodlines of Israel, who are at this time of Jesus speech, Judea and israel nations. But during the spring of the well under Moses, Yahweh called each family, a nation, hence there were 12 nations from among the children of israel. But more importantly, Jesus said "I am sent but to only the lost sheep of israel" This proofs that he was not a messenger to african, or asians, or americans, or anyone else except his people of 12 nations, the reason he said to his disciples never to enter anyone's home except preaching to the children of Israel, and never truly did of his own. How many verses argued that John 8;12 is incorrect? You cant have it both ways in matters where the Bible is on two sides of the argument, one of them will have to be false, at least. No normal person, as an example can be a real mother (woman) and be a real father (man) to a child. Jesus cant be saying dont preach to anyone else, and yet the light of the world. Impossible. It begs all reality, logic, practicality, you name it, its in there.





[Quote]Matthew 14: 15

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.[/Quote]Every Jew believes he or she is special, as being sonor daughter of God. Look inside the Bible; Moses was made God to Aaron. Jesus responded, "Does not your Book (OT) say that you are Gods, or even sons of God"? Then another part of the Bible spoke about the "SONS OF GOD" married daughters of men. You dont know any of these? They are in your Book. Look in it. I am sure you will turn Jesus to begotten later, if not already, below. Yet the same Yahweh was the father of many children, even Jacob, His special son long before Jesus was even dreamt about, in around about way, without any direct verse from the Old Testament. Immanuel, you people argued that was him. I have asked many times, and am asking you here, show me how, even use some person calling him by it, in some kind of unintentional which could have proven that the prophesy was talking about him.
Let me tell you what i meant; Surah Lahab was revealed in Makka talking about Abi Lahab will die as a disbeliever, meaning he will never accept Islam. He was told by many who knew him that look your nephew said that you will die as a disbeliever of the religion he said God gave him for us. Disproof him that he is a liar, since this is what you say. Just enter islam now and leave it right away. You knoiw, even in front of these people, he could easily have said, "You are my witness[es], i enter islam. You are my witness[es], i am leaving islam". he never did it this way. Not one time. Not even to himself, alone. Allah the Almighty blocked his heart never to go that deep. Did anyone ever called Jesus, by mistake, unintentional, "immanuel"? If not then the Bible failed, again, unless there was a different meaning to Immanuel and a different person has already lived itunder that different meaning, since God cant be on earth? Dont ask me who or what, since I am just crushing your arguments, I am not about to make any suggestion. cgist, dont be an Abu Lahab.




[Quote]And then you come back to cunter all of His sayings that they are not correct and all of that, I then will ask you this simple question:

Seeing that the Quran did not capture even 2% of Jesus' ministry on earth,[/Quote]What is the essence of what Jesus did on earth, his ministry? Was it the eating, sleeping and the going here and there? No.Those are functions and needs of ordinary human to survive. Jesus cant even fast properly without getting so hungry at the time of ending his fast that he would do all kinds of abnormal things, from cursing a tree that did not produce fruits, in off season, to dialoguing with the devil for a loaf of bread. His ministry was not more than steering those followers, believers to the true OT, and the added materials he was given and to reinforce in the mind of people as in reawakening them that God is One, his Lord and Lord of all, and who ever worships anything else will never enter paradise, and to say there is last Messenger to come whose name is Ahmad. His miracles were signs that he was a messenger, a prophet and servant of God, Who permits him to do them, the reason he said "of my own power, i can do nothing".






[Quote]on what/which authority and against what source are you raising your objections ? Do you have any reference material in your Quran or Hadiths that capture the activities and events of Jesus' ministry from the age of 30 to 33 ? First if you disagree with my above statement, then lets know in your response. Jesus am sure is not God. Is not son of God.[/Quote]The Quran is very clear that Jesus was a prophet and a messenger to his bloodline, alone and not anyone else. The role of Jesus, was disclosed by his Lord Who started by making his birth part of the miracles on him, his defending his mother from the crib, a one time baby speech which he never repeated until he was able to speak going through normal human process of development, tells us that he was in the Mercy of his Lord, his Creator Who sent him, as a slave. I can just tell you to read his miracles, in Surah Maidah, Maryam, and many others, including Imran. Read the Quran. If it is about Jesus, then go to the indexes. You will find everything Jesus, as Isa bin Maryam (AS).




[Quote]This is my submission: if you dont have any records of his ministry's events, how then can you claim that what he has said is wrong and not correct?[/Quote]I have already said you should look into the pages of Quran. But am sure, as a person, you must have problems with one of the two verses here; Bible: Jesus is God. Bible Jesus is Servant sent by God
Bible: Jesus is Yahweh. Bible: Jesus said his God is Eloi.
Bible: Jesus is all Powerful. Bible: Jesus said he cant do anything of his own power.
Bible: Jesus is peaceful. Bible: Jesus as Yahweh, he killed nations under Noah, Moses, and other.
Bible: Jesus is dead as human. Bible Jesus as Yahweh must never die.
Bible: Jesus cant do nothing. Bible: Jesus as Yahweh, the Word created everything.
There so many discrepancies about Jesus is this, and at the same time the Bible records exactly the opposite.




[Quote]Undecided I would have expected that the Quran would cover all of the activities of Jesus' ministries, words, actions, and events for only then can you come and start comparing stories and records before making valuable judgements on whether Jesus' stories are mere fables or not in comparison to the same stories but ascaptured in the quran. The only thing I see here is that the words of Mohammad has made him an undisputable lunatic because they are widely at variance with all written historical records -e.g. how can he say that Noah's flood took place in Moses' days (Sura 7:136, compare 7:59ff)? Was he high on drugs or what? Furthermore, he could not even substantiate his claim on the reception of the quran which made him to give 3 different accounts:[/Quote]You claimed that the Quran said Noah's flood took place in the time of Moses. I wonder how you came to that conclusion, so I present the Quran from 7/130 to 7/137 just to show that you incorrect;

7:130 Sahih International:
And We certainly seized the people of Pharaoh with years of famine and a deficiency in fruits that perhaps they would be reminded.

7:131 Sahih International
But when good came to them, they said, "This is ours [by right]." And if a bad [condition] struck them, they saw an evil omen in Moses and those with him. Unquestionably, their fortune is with Allah , but most of them do not know.

7:132 Sahih International
And they said, "No matter what sign you bring us with which to bewitch us, we will not be believers in you."

7:133 Sahih International
So[b] We sent upon them the flood and locusts and lice and frogs and blood as distinct signs[/b], but they were arrogant and were a criminal people.

7:134 Sahih International
And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel."

7:135 Sahih International
But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word.

7:136 Sahih International
So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them.

7:137 Sahih International
And[b] We caused the people who had been oppressed to inherit the eastern regions of the land and the western ones, which We had blessed[/b]. And the good word of your Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel because of what they had patiently endured. And We destroyed [all] that Pharaoh and his people were producing and what they had been building. now cgist from 130 through 137, do you now know that it is pharaoh and his people that were been spoken about here?





[Quote]1. We are first told that allah came to Mohammed in the form of a man and that Mohammad saw him Sura 53:2-18)[/Quote]Here is Najm to answer your false accusation.
53:2 Sahih International
Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,

53:3 Sahih International
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

53:4 Sahih International
It is not but a revelation revealed, [My own comment; verses 3 and 4 give you part of another comfort quality; he hears and just repeats]

53:5 Sahih International
Taught[b] to him by one intense in strength[/b] -[this is Jibril as the tutor of Muhammad]

53:6 Sahih International
One of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form[this is Jibril being described by Allah]

53:7 Sahih International
While he was in the higher [part of the] horizon. [Jibril, again in the first encounter, at the begining of revelation]

53:8 Sahih International
Then he approached and descended [Jibril at the time of the first revelation]

53:9 Sahih International
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer.

53:10 Sahih International
And he revealed to[b] His Servant what he revealed[/b]. [Allah is the Real Revealer, hence uses H for Himself and h for Jibril and Muhammad]

53:11 Sahih International
The heart did not lie [about] what it saw. [Muhammad's heart]

53:12 Sahih International
So will you dispute with him over what he saw? [will you dispute with Muhammad?]

53:13 Sahih International
And he certainly saw him in another descent [Muhammad saw Jibril, again]

53:14 Sahih International
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary -[at this point in 7th or beyond 7th heaven, the fullest Angelic presentation of Jibril, Muhammad saw]

53:15 Sahih International
Near it is the Garden of Refuge - [the Lote Tree is close to Paradise]

53:16 Sahih International
When there covered the Lote Tree that which covered [it]. [description of The Lote Tree, please a good book on the Night Journey of Muhammad]

53:17 Sahih International
The sight [of the Prophet] did not swerve, nor did it transgress [its limit]. [Muhammad was on point, directional, on duty, Allah confirms]

53:18 Sahih International
He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.

In the above verses, we read Allah talking about Muhammad (as) receiving the message, and the one who is passing the message to him was Jibril (as) who Allah uses (he) for. Muhammad (as) saw Jibril for the first time in the cave of Hira, when he received the 1st 5 verses of Surah Alaq (Human Creation). When Muhammad ran out after te incident, he reported that Jibril occupied the whole horizon, in his angelic form. Lets stop here for a moment and go to the mission after this first encounter. Muhammad saw Jibril, and even many times the companions say Jibril later in Madina (Hadith of Jibril, "he came to teach you your religion", and the battle of Tabuk or other just outside of Madina. In all these places and times, Jibril never came as he did on the occasion of Isra wa Miraj which verses 1-18 above is talking about. In this event, Jibril appeared in his fullest Angelic form, where the Lote Tree of the farthest is. Muhammad was the only creation allowed to go beyond this point. Ever. Now, the revelation of Quran is 100% from Allah, Te Speaker. This you can deny. We in Islam accepts it for ourselves. Now the messenger who delivered the verses of Quran to Muhammad was Jibril, for Jibril was an errant runner, a messenger. The only four verses that came to Muhammad directly without Jibril too place on this occasion of Muhammad in heavens, passing farther than the farthest Lote Tree location. These were the last 4 verses of Chapter 2.

We will now see that Allah used (He), once and it was for Himself and for others [jibril and muhammad], were lower case h.





[Quote]2. Then we are told that it was the Holy Spirit that came to Mohammad (Sura 16:102; 26:192-194)[/Quote]Jibril is nicknamed holy spirit, along with other nick names. By the way Humans, Jinns, and Angels, each group has a spirit, different from the spirit in each of the others. Human spirit is different from the spirit in the Jinn, which is different from the spirit of the Angels, which is different from the spirit of Man. But each is a spirit type created by Allah. It is the human type of spirit that was breath to the first man, Adam, same human type of spirit came forth from Allah which we call Jesus the son of Mary, a messeneger, a prophet, a servant and a messiah to the chilren of srael who was expecting one.




[Quote]3. The last and the most popular version is that it was the angel Gabriel who delivered the Quran to him (Sura 2:97). May be angel Gabriel is your own the Holy Spirit Undecided[/Quote]Jibril is also known as holy spirit. Just like Jesus is known as Messiah of the children of israel, yet, a messenger, a prophet.




[Quote]So, how can i take that kind of man and his book seriously?[/Quote]this book, the Quran, is not for you, now. it does not call you. Ask Cat Stevens, a big time rocker in 1970s. Ask many others, including Yusuf Estes, or Hamza Yusuf, and others. your heart is disease the reason you cant be call yet. then you will see many things Jesus didnt teach the disciples because they couldnt bear it, because they dont have the faith to handle it, until mankind got the Apostle of Allah Muhammad bin Abdallah who led to all things, speaking, teaching, correcting, repeating all that he heard from his Lord, and Muhammad abides with me by THE QURAN and authentic hadith whih is not going against the Quran.




[Quote]Let me summarize:
If you have the records of Jesus' sayings, actions, and events during his earthly ministry, produce them and lets start our discussions from there. If you dont, you are restricted to what the Bible has recorded that He said and did. And if that is the case, please, I beg of you, never disclaim anything Jesus said again when it is lifted from the Bible cos you dont have any proof of what He said outside of the Bible else you will only be showing yourself as silly, ignorant and arguing for the sake of it without facts.[/Quote]you have every thing in the Quran, all his truth.





[Quote]John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. Jesus says emphatically He is the Light of the World. . Follow Him, he will reveal his love into your heart. You have never experienced true love before, taste and see that the Lord Jesus is good. Experience Him, you will be hooked and wished you had known Him earlier.[/Quote]And the above nullifies The Another Comforter. It is either the writer of one of these two verses was a liar, or both were. Is Jesus the light of the world? No. My proof: He preached and instructed preaching to the israelites and no one else. Muhammad on the other hand had all forms of mankind as his companions, Jews Abdullah bin Abdulsalaam, arabs, non areabs; Europeans; Shuaib Al Rum, Africans one of them is Bilah bin Rabah, as the example for it, Asiatic people: Salman Al Farsi. Muhammad took the bold steps, as Allah instructed him to invite all mankind, so he wrote to all the powerful kings and rulers and emperors of his days, inviting them so that automatically, he subjects will begin to come in. Thats a sign of worldwide invitation to a path, if you cant see it from the eclectic group that boldly was his companions (ra). But what Jesus has done was that if the Jews had followed him, they would be counted among believers. And those among them who shall be alive will automatically know his natural successor, the Another Comforter, when he arrives on earth, by all the qualities that he was to have when he takes up the mantle of steering people to the same religion; God is One, Indivisible, no partner, no father or mother, no children and the Only One to worship and sincerely obey seeking His Helps and Aids.





[Quote]
Remember, Jesus is Alive!!! Mohammad is Dead!!!!![/Quote]
Here is my reminder; Among those who are not dead among men include Jesus, Elijah on the chariot, Melchezdekeh, and we have Satan from the jinn.

Among thoe who died are Muhammad, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus died for some time, according to you.

@Aletheia; @Aletheia: « #296 on: Yesterday at 10:13:11 PM »
[Quote]^^^The usual Muslim obsession with things of a sexual nature (not surprising, given that your "paradise" is a place of continuous fornication)[/Quote]Every normal woman, or man is obsessed in one way or another with ses, the reason children are born. While you are hypocritical, in nature, hiding the truth even from your ownself, there will not be fornication in Paradise. The law that prohibits it in this world will not apply in Paradise, and people of paradise will be satisfied with what they have anyway.



[Quote] Keep deceiving yourself, your prophet was guilty of every one of the sins you have highlighted above so what point are you seeking to make?[/Quote]Whosoever his Lord and Creator forgives already, who is going to find him guilty except people who have no reality?



[Quote]The Bible plainly describes the sins of men. . .and points out the way of salvation: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God.[/Quote]Before Jesus there were people saved, Noah was saved and so were people with him. This is just an example. None of them needed or will need jesus to do anything for them. Jesus could not save himself, the reason he was praying to God to do it. And jesus said out of his own power he was unable to do anything anyway. If God did not accept and saved Jesus after the begging, then it pointed out to us that jesus was not even a true prophet of God. Your choice, aletheia.



[Quote]« #297 on: Yesterday at 11:29:54 PM »
@nopuqeater:
I asked you 3 straightforward questions based on your own words:
Quote from: aletheia on August 18, 2010, 07:59 PM
#1. Why did the Jews say Adonai (Lord) instead of Yahweh?[/Quote]I already answered that i am not a jew and i dont care what they called Him, since they call Him many names, anyway. Is that so hrd for you to grasp? At least you have brain, somewhat different from the other guy.



[Quote]#2. What is the meaning of Eloi?[/Quote]The God. Listen to Jesus say it. This The God is not Jesus. Do you understand that, or you are saying Eloi is jesus?


[Quote]Did your prophet describe his god as Eloi?[/Quote]Just like Jesus did not call his God Yahweh, Muhammad (AS) dont have to say Eloi before we know that Allah is Eloi in the tongue that says The God is Eloi, just like Eloi is Chineke.


[Quote]#3. Again the question you are avoiding: Where in your qur'an is the name Eloi?[/Quote]In the Bible of the Arabs, the Christians say Allah and they know it is Yahweh, or jehovah, or Eloi they are talking about, just like Yoruba Christians in Yoruba Bible say Olorun. Is Olorun not Eloi? This is the question you need to answer so that I know that you are capable of having a hearty dialogue.


[Quote]Does it occur among the 99 names of your god?[/Quote]If Eloi is not "The God" from the tongue of Jesus on the cross, tell us what it is, and I will tell you what Allah means.



[Quote]And you can only respond with puerile words that amount to nothing more than fig leaves to cover your unclothedness. Repent and turn to Jesus and He will clothe you in fine white linen that has been washed clean by His Blood.[/Quote]I do wear good clothing that covers what must be covered. I do not need a dead man for a Lord God Creator. And i do not need blood for anything.



[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:09:16 AM
@Aletheia: #283 on: Yesterday at 07:59:11 PM »Am neither a jew now a follower of Jesus who died on the cross. I am a hanifan, muslima and not a mushrikin. And to sum up your ignorance, your quizzing me here is similar, exactly like a fanti from Ghana saying to an Igbo man that where is oluwa the God, in a book written in Igbo language with so many Chukwu and Chineke in it. The igbo man will know that he is being challenged by ignorance.
^
How did this post of your's answer my questions? If you don't know, be gracious enough to accept that you don't know. So you agree that you are not a Jew (don't you know that salvation is of the Jews!) and don't know why they say Adonai instead of Yahweh, but yet try to pass it off as if you knew what you were talking about![/Quote]If SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS, the same group that Jesus came to steer back into the straight path, why was Jesus really here, since he defined his role only with the Jews, and you said they are saved anyway, with or without Jesus? Yet Jesus did not preach to anyone, except the Jews. I now say that Jesus of the Bible failed to follow his mission, or it is the Bible writers that lied about Jesus or both. It is however clear that Jesus was not completely successful in his mission, and at the same time the Jews do have salvation for themselves as the Bible stated. The two cant happen 100% correctly without negating the other.



[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on August 18, 2010, 01:48 PM
@Aletheia: you see that the Jews' say Adonai, while you are stuck with yahweh, and jesus said Eloi.
^
The reason you are avoiding my questions is that no where in your qur'an does the name Eloi appear.[/Quote]but in arabic Bible, Allah is in there as God, just like Yoruba says Olorun. Is Allah god in the Quran and God in the Bible?



[Quote]If it did you would have dismissed me long ago by providing the verse but you keep fleeing from the question. Your use of Eloi is nothing but a clutching at straws to validate your god by going outside of the qur'an to look for names for him![/Quote]Is Obangiji of the Hausas inferior to the Yorubas Olorun?


[Quote]Yahweh Elohim Adonai[b] the Father of Yeshua Ha'Maschiach[/b][/Quote]Whats the position of the jews, the owners of Salvation, when you say their God has a real son, with a real name? Are they in agreement or they say that you lie like a rug?


[Quote]has revealed to us His Name in the Holy Bible and His Name is exalted above all.[/Quote]What is His name (singular) and the rest are lies, no? But Jesus your other God says his God is Eloi, The God.



[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:09:16 AM
I hope everyone is reading this guy? he said salvation and jumped to sin, reminding of Lord's prayer (title}, the first line started with father, from a man who said he was a servant sent, at some point in his earthly life.
^^Again you emphasized my point that Islam has a false concept of God, man and sin. Did you think salvation is exclusive of sin.[/Quote]At least when a man says he wants to talk about sin, a disobedience of a law, you expect him to talk about it. Not talking about salvation, which is in itself a mercy while sin is not, but a disregard. disobedience.



[Quote]Sinners are need of salvation![/Quote]A sinner may never receive salvation. A person save may not have sinned, being protected away from sin which he is saved from.


[Quote]I will once again ask you a question that you have also avoided answering for a long time now. How do you reconcile Perfect Justice and Perfect Forgiveness?[/Quote]Justice by itself will have to be tempered with Mercy and the the result is Forgiveness. If God gives you Perfect Justice, you may as well be in Hell, for all your sins are recorded and reckorned upon you. Perfect Forgiveness is what we Muslims want from God, without unnecessary wastage of any life, animal or man. I am sure Perfect Forgiveness without killing a man, is not good enough from your eye, yet The God is Perfectly Capable of Perfect Mercy. Is Perfect Mercy not Perfect Forgiveness?


[Quote]I hope you realize Perfect Justice demands that every infraction no matter how little or insignificant must be punished. The answer to the conundrum is by a Perfect Substitutionary Sacrifice.[/Quote]No body needs sacrifice anything so that The Perfect God can give him Perfect Mercy, Perfect Forgiveness.


[Quote]Ezekiel 18:20, The soul that sinneth, it shall die, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/Quote]Again, if Jesus died, according to you, then he was a sinner and sinneth. And if the wickedness is borne by the wicked, and must pay for his wickedness, Jesus didnt save anyone. Any of these two not as I stated, then Ezekiel 18;20 is not true statement.


[Quote]There is no distinction with God as to small and great sins. The penalty in the earth, in human courts, may vary, as with adultery and touching a dead body, but the final verdict for anyone who sins before the God of the Bible is guilt. The penalty must be paid.[/Quote]Since everyone bears his or her own guilt and must be punished, according to Ezekiel 18; 20, what you claim for Jesus flies in the face of Ezeziel. I hope you know that. It is now Ezekiel versus Jesus or Bible writers.




[Quote]Romans 5:12 [/b]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin came by Adam, and death came with sin. Everyone is a sinner in some way, so everyone faces the same final penalty-- death.

God gives the verdict in the Bible, [b]Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/Quote]Paul agreed with Ezekiel, and changed away from him, thereby making Jesus to something Jesus himself was not. All of a sudden, the guilty will not be punished, but Jesus will take his punishment for him. Is that how human courts work, the innocent somehow get punished for the guild of the guilty? If humans will not do this, can Perfect God do it, while He could easily say "I forgive you", and no one can question His Decision? Yet Satan is still alive, while Adam who is already forgiven is dead. To be alive or dead is not a yardstick of eith Goodliness or Evil. by the the one who ascended heaven by chariot and Melchezdek are alive according to the Bible.




[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:09:16 AM
And muslims will end up in Paradise (jannah) after all of the above, while christians shall end up only in heaven. Allah is indeed Most Merciful. i need not even tell you anything else.
^^Is that what is called a Freudian slip. Grin I thought hitherto you were adamant that Christians will be in Hell.[/Quote]As long as Paradise is forbidden to you christians because you dont want it anyway, the reason you have 3 gods and faking them to be 1 God to those who are gullible, Glory belongs to Allah and He is capable of putting you away where He Wills.



[Quote]Heaven is the presence of God.[/Quote]God of Islam is beyond Heaven[s]. Read Surah Araf, Surah Najm, and others where Allah says "I rose ABOVE the Throne "Astawa al Arsh". All things created, including Heavens, Allah is not within it, but beyond, while everyone of them, everybit of it is in His Control. Can you God be this my Ilah, Allah Azhawajah, Al Qahar (The Irresistable?).



[Quote]And Christians are already in Heaven, for Jesus Himself says: The Kingdom of Heaven is in you. As for that "paradise" of yours it entered by way of Hell and you have no assurance that once you are in Hell, you will get out.[/Quote]I am assured that I will not even enter Hell, though I will see it, that if it was not for the Mercy of The Merciful, I could have been there, with people of hell. But Alhamdulillah, He ransomed me, as the son of Ibrahim was ransomed from slaughter. I am not in Hell, but in Paradise. But of couse Paradise is not for you and any Mercy without killing Jesus first is not possible in your mind. I know your kind; stuck in neutral.




[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:09:16 AM
Hey human, unless you are demented, which of the Two would you love as your Lord, since you will never be perfect, according to the Bible? I prefer a Merciful God, rather than the One Who will never forgive me for the smallest of mistakes, yet He knew that I will never be perfect. The Biblical God went to far, according to the christians from Animal blood, to Human blood just to satisfy Himself. Yet Allah Will forgive you all your sins without any killing.
#1. My confession is simple: I love Jesus of Nazareth. He is Lord and Saviour.[/Quote]Mine is better and complete; Allah will give me Perfect Forgiveness from His Abundant of Mercy without killing a single soul.



[Quote]#2. Yahweh is Holy. He cannot abide even the slightest microscopic blot of impurity unlike al-ilah who only pretends to be holy (a word that appears only once in your qur'an just like salvation) and overlooks any sin so long as you recite shahada. Yahweh demands repentance not meaningless recitations and ritual acts of devotion that do not transform a man.[/Quote]Allah needs no blood and He forgives all sins that He Wills to blot out, without any payment or hardship on any soul. Who will confront Him about His decision?



[Quote]#3. Yahweh is Merciful, for He has provided Himself salvation to me from my sins. His forgiveness is Complete and Perfect unlike your god who hasn't made up his mind whether to leave you burning in Hell (not that he even has power to send you there in the first place!).
Hasn't it occurred to you yet that perfect forgiveness entails not even entering Hell but your imperfectly forgiving false god assures you that not one of you will but enter into the Fire.[/Quote]Why Yahweh needed to kill the unwilling Jesus and only give you at best "heaven" (there used to be a TV program in america called 7th heavens. so which one of the 7 heavens the Christians heading to?), Allah forgives me and grants me Mercy and gives me Jannah, where there is no hardship on me. Alhamdulillah.



[Quote]#4. Forgiveness is available to ALL through belief in the One Who Alone Can Save-Jesus of Nazareth. Repent therefore and believe in Jesus to receive complete forgiveness.[/Quote]Yet Jesus has a God, Eloi. Yet Jesus cant save himself. Is that a savior, really? This is similar to Oloyaa of Osun worshiper saying Oyaa is God.



[Quote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 03:09:16 AM
. . .Where is the formula from Jesus? Yet, above the Biblical God that will punish you, and you alone for your sins, now turns to be God that has a son that He will sacrifice for your sin. Where is the wife of Biblical God, who is the mother of the son, otherwise, the child is a naughty person. And the parents are entities of adultery.
^
#1. The "formula" from Jesus? Only believe on Him and you will be saved.[/Quote]Ibrahim told his people let Baal tell you who did it, though it could not because it was a man made God, a fake. Jesus was a prophet of his people, but a fake God, because you aletheia made him a God. He is no God. I dont want fake God. I rejected you plea.



[Quote]#2. Where is the wife of Biblical God? As a man thinks in his heart so is he. Carnally-minded, so carnal thinking. The Bible is clear as to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. You 've read it many times, now read it again in humility, and ask the True God to show you the Truth.[/Quote]That He has a wife or what? That Jesus is His real son. and he does not have to be married to have a son? That He needed to kill unwilling Jesus who prayed for Mercy, just to allow us Paradise that Adam and his wife HAwa lived in before they were sent to earth? What is the truth that a God that had to sleep with a girl wants to tell me? My Ilah, Allah Subhananah wa Ta'ala is Perfectly capablae of Forgiving and thats what He promised to do for Muslims who come to Him, willingly with full humility and sincerity. I need Allah and need nothing else.



[Quote]KJV: I Cor 15:1-4. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,[/Quote]Who did Paul receive this GOSPEL that he is preaching from? Is this Gospel not different from what the original companions of Jesus received from the lips of Jesus, hence Paul is against Jesus teachings? Why did Paul confront any of the Disciples, who were with Jesus who should be the people Paul followed their leads? Is Paul supposed to know Jesus more than any of the disciples? Of course not. but then, he preached what he preached and forced the people with jesus to abandon Jesus true Gospel.



[Quote]how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;[/Quote]Which scripture? I want exact verse.



[Quote]And that he was buried,[/Quote]Cave is not a grave. Grave, you must dig. Then to bury it, soil must be on top of the body, as when you plant corn or maize.



[Quote]and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:[/Quote]Get me 3 days and 3 nights from Friday about sunset to sunday before sunrise. You see how you fall for a lie. Read all of these with some kind of thinking.

We in Islam for example by The Perfectly Merciful and Perfectly Forgiving God Who could give Perfect Justice, but will not do so, because of His Mercy and Love for us, His creation, this ramadhan is a means of Forgiveness, a way of salvation for us. You see how simple that is? No need to get hold of some innocent soul and kill him anyway, even as he says he does not want to die.

Allah is Merciful.

Others, well they are what they are.

IMPERFECT DESCRIPTIONS OF GOD


[b]LIKE A MAN
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded."
(Genesis 11:5)
MOSES SEES GOD'S BACK PARTS?
"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
(Exodus 33:23)
WRESTLES WITH JACOB
"And He (God) said, thy name shall be called no more lacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou
power with God and with men, and has prevailed." (Genesis 32:28)
LIKE ONE DRUNK
"Then the Lord awakened as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of
wine." (Psalm 78:65)
REGRETS MAKING MAN
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
(Genesis 6:6)
SMELLS SWEET FLAVOUR
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, " (Genesis 8:21)
A CROUCHING LION
"He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up?" (Numbers 24:9)
DEVOURING FIRE
"And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes
of the children of Israel." (Exodus 24:17)
RESTED AND REFRESHED
" ,  in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested AND WAS
REFRESHED." 1 (Exodus 31:17)[/b]

  This is how muddled their understanding of the nature of GOD is

aletheia:

^^^The usual Muslim obsession with things of a sexual nature (not surprising, given that your "paradise" is a place of continuous fornication). Keep deceiving yourself, your prophet was guilty of every one of the sins you have highlighted above so what point are you seeking to make?
The Bible plainly describes the sins of men. . .and points out the way of salvation: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God.

YET YOU HAVE NO REPLY(HIS SAME WAY YOU FAILED IN THE THREAD MY LORD MY LROD WHY HAVE THOU FORSAKEN ME) BECAUSE YOU ARE WHOLLY IGNORANT OF YOUR RELIGION AND HARDLY HAVE ANY ANSWER TO GIVE, AND YET THIS YOUR god SINNED IN THE BIBLE NOTABLY
IF YOUR RECORD IS TRUE THEN YOUR god SEEMS ALWAYS EAGER TO INSULT HIS ELDERS AND EVEN HIS MOTHER

"Ye hypocrites!"
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation!"
"Ye whited sephulcres!"
"Ye generation of vipers!"
and now to his mother: "Woman, "
ALSO TO NON-JEWS -DOGS(WHICH INCLUDES CHRISTIAN

CONCEPT FROM BEYOND THE FAR EAST

"A-T-N-A-T-U is indeed a funny concept of God read below


[b]WHAT IS SO FUNNY OR SO NOVEL ABOUT ATNATU?
The aborgine of South Australia calls his God "Atnatu" because some philosopher, poet or prophet had
programmed him, that the Father in Heaven is absolutely free from all needs; He is independent; He
needs no food nor drink. This quality, in his primitive, un-inhibited language, he conversely named
ATNATU, which literally meant "the One without an anus - the One without any flaw" - i.e. the One from
Whom no impurity flows or emanates. When I started sharing this novel idea with Hindu, Muslim and
Christian friends, without exception, their immediate reaction was one of mirth, they giggled and laughed.
Most of them not realising that the joke was on them. The boot was on the other foot. Though the word
"anus" is a very small word, only four letters in English, most people have not heard it. One is forced to
use the colloquial substitute which I hesitate to reproduce here, nor will I use the same in public meetings
because of people's hypersensitivity - because in the words of Abdullah Yusuf All, people "HAD
PERVERTED THEIR LANGUAGE ONCE BEAUTIFUL, INTO JARGONS OF EMPTY ELEGANCE AND
UNMEANING FUTILITY."
Therefore to ease the situation, in a round-about-way let us say that where you have an "input," you must
allow for an "output." The one who eats, must have the call of nature - the toilet or the bush - and our
primitive friend smelt the need, which he could never attribute to his Creator. Therefore, he called his God
- ATNATU!'The one without the excretory system or its tail end.
[/b]

[size=17pt]
The Challenge is for you christians put your lod and make him fit into A-T-A-N-A-T-U, and see whether it your lod can pass the test of this primitive people of Australia.[/size]

WELL WELL WELL THE MAN-god WORSHIPERS HAVE NO ANSWER TO THE CHALLENGE

@cgift; i read a little bit of your pictorial story. for me, i see that your brand of chrisianity hated the catholics. but you didnt hate to copy their bible, except the books you rejected.

and as to islam, Quran had answered all of you; Surah Qamar says even the tongue of this latest revelation is different, but they accused him that somebody taught him, among men.

here are the proofs that it was not so; if it was christians that taught him, he Muhammad on his own independence away from the christians to give statement that Jesus is no God. and the argument he made to support this statement, every bit of it is sound, and there is no loop hole in it. did Jesus have the capability to do anything by himself? the biblical answer is no. check out the bible, again. you will find it in there.

so regardless how much you color Jesus, red, green, yellow, or whatever, it will not make him more than what he is. you are just living a pipe dream like the rest of those who invent god to make God.

now, if Muhammad was not sincere and wanted any glory for himself and from anyone, he would have not revealed surah Abasa, and the verses on ending of adoption which brought about marrying his own cousin, a former wife of his former adopted son, who is now just his brother in Islam, his follower. one wonders why didnt zaid leave islam, after this? he did not even protest it, realising that it is a perfect order that Allah brought about by this thing that confounds many.

few points i wanna make here; All hashimites are Quraishis. it is similar to all ibadan natives are nigerians.
dome of the rock is not ahead of Aqsa mosque in importance, to the muslims, even both are in Jerusalem. the prophet mosque in Madina is 2nd.
Ali is recognized by all muslims, and not just the shia that recognized him. Ali was the direct and immediate successor, there were 3 others before.

and as to Ishmael and hagar and abraham, versus sarah, the bible contradicts itself, OT contradict NT in facts and implication of the incidence, paralleling that of Jesus. if anyone felt that abraham was not married, legally to Hagar, but just a maid of sarah who wished for a child because of a promise from God, such a person had called Abraham, the Friend of God an adulterer. Will God have stood doing nothing to stop his friend from such an act, then later decided adultery is bad? God knows everything before it happens, He puts it in motion, allowing it to happen, in reality.

if sarah had not let God's plan materialize as He had promised her, according to the pamphlet quoting from the Bible, then sarah was a disbeliever.

reality is that Hagar came to the household of Abraham, not as a slave, but as a bride from the household of coptic king Pharaoh of egypt. do princesses become slaves when she was not captured in conflicts, but given out as si=uch wilingly by the king? no.

but you are stil entitled to follow your blindness. it will lead you and others to destruction on Judgement day. the whole story of ishmael and his mother and abraham and sarah is riddled with suggestive lies, and false statements. at the end of it all, none of the prophesies of harshness became a reality on the person called ishmael. he was neither a will ass nor a killer of anyone or was killed by anyone. instead, it was isaac that lost his sight and had a terrible and conniving wife who destroyed a son to elevate another. the son elevated was full of treacheries. i am using your bible, but Quran is silent about all of them, wondering if the christians who taught muhammad the Bible which became the Quran wanted the Quran, his own invention under Muhammad to be better than the book of his own religion? yet he didnt change into Islam, and became his leader by force threatening that he will come out all about Muhammad being a fake? if he became Muslim, he would have easily became the leader just in the same vain or control the agenda of the movement and the life of Muhammad, or all of these. but find out that none of these happened. why no one came out that he was muhammad's mentor, teacher on this Quran and the new religion with it, inventing salah, and others, though we know Jewish and christian sects and individuals still doing it today. search the internet's youtube, you will find many videos and the Bible newly discovered in palestine supports what muslims from Quran say about Jesus, anyway.

if out of wedlock Ishmael was born to Abraham, and therefore not his heir, first spiritual son, and birth, then Jesus who was conceived out of wedlock, suffers the same condition, at least. at least ishmael has a father who is of the same kind of, but could jesus an imperfect being with all his false, on the pages of the bible can ever come from Perfect God, as a son? what will God need son for? has God ever imitated His creations, before? does it make any sense to imitate them this one time, and the purpose of doing it is defeated by His All Powerful to do all things, including forgiveness, mercy without anyone challenging His effortless process? loving a messenger to the point of abandoning reality of his purpose, then installing him as The God is pure madness that i am working hard to get my family and friends and multitude of people to walk away from.

and as you lionize Jesus, lying against islam is not the way to go. if Jesus you will accept was able to penetrate the heaven because wishes him to be raise up to heavens, alive and people saw it or not, then it is not impossible for God to make His prophet experience the same and came back to tell his companions. this very event in life of Muhammad, if nothing else convinces you, this should have been.

is God incapable like jesus? no. i have heard many who argued that God wanted to "LEARN" how humans deal with what He has put them in, the eart, so that he can better know how to be Merciful, Lenient, or Forgives, especially on Judgement day. I ask; does He now become a better God by this experience? will not send anyone, like those who worship others with Him and or develop the graven image concept, etc to Hell? Well the christians do exactly that, worshiping God and jesus and ghost in a concept called trinity, and a graven image of jesus hanging is developed to buttress this idea that truly there is more than One God.

finally the view of islam on Jesus and his mother is unique to itself, completely different from any christian sect, catholics or not. Jesus is Messenger and Prophet (AS) to his Chidren fo israel nations, world, people, tribes. his mother marry is no more than a good woman, though you cgist may say she is a prostitute, scum of the earth. we in Islam defended her as a woman, young, unmarried and not in the household of Jeseph before she got pregnant. if all of these the catholic agrees with islam, when we differ as in you and them saying Jesus is a God in trinity, it will be a good faith to acknowledge it. afterall, you are not different from each other about jesus being your God in additional to Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Eloi, or Adonia, and of course te holy Ghost.

Is Allah an idol, a moon god, the reason moon is on mosque? there is no idol of Allah ever, even when the arabs were pure pagans, they knew there is an existing Creator, ust like every society does. Allah is that Creator, while Olorun is in Yoruba, God is in English to just name a few of tribal or societal languages. is a moon god anywhere around the muslims, Kaaba or not? none. there are videos that show the inside of Kaaba. its nothing special about it, except that the inside is empty.

one of my ethiopian friend has a wife who was an officer in the court of the emirate royalty. she tod us that she was part of the contigents from that emirates among the nobilities who they open its inside for. they went in and there was nothing secret about it, but just an empty space of a 4 sided structure, a room, even.

the moon and star is an invetion, a symbol, shiled or coat of arm of the turkish khalifah, and Masjid Haram in Makka, masjid Muhammad in Madina, neither carriss this moon symbol. if it was so important, Masjid Haram and Muhammad's Masjid should not been left without it.

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on
earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

nopuqeater:


now, if Muhammad was not sincere and wanted any glory for himself and from anyone, he would have not revealed surah Abasa, and the verses on ending of adoption [b]which brought about marrying his own cousin, a former wife of his former adopted son, [/b]who is now just his brother in Islam, his follower.

Mohammad was just a sex-maniac thats all! He could not control his libido! Why did he have 22 wives and restricted you people only to 4 ? You have not answered that question till today. May be because he has the strength of 30 men!!   He now analysed you his followers and discovered you have only the strength of 4 men and restricted you people to 4 ?  

one wonders why didnt zaid leave islam, after this? he did not even protest it, realising that it is a perfect order that Allah brought about by this thing that confounds many.

He feared for his head of course- he did not want it to be removed from off his neck, so he had to be gentle  . If it were you what wuld you do seeing the dazzling sword in its sheath and the dagger clipped to his side   . Would you need any counsel to tell you to maintain ?

and as to Ishmael and hagar and abraham, versus sarah, the bible contradicts itself, OT contradict NT in facts and implication of the incidence, paralleling that of Jesus. if anyone felt that abraham was not married, legally to Hagar, but just a maid of sarah who wished for a child because of a promise from God, such a person had called Abraham, the Friend of God an adulterer.

The people who taught Mohammed the stories of the Bible did a wicked job. Thank God you read that comic story. Its a classic.I I am sure you would have seen another perspective entirely. I appreciate your response. You must however know that in their bid to create a religion t ocounter Christianity the Arabs,the stories had to be twisted . All the ancient biblical manuscripts of old written ever before Mohammad was born all say the same thing about the relationship between Abraham, Sarah his wife, and Hagar the slave. Not one manuscript supports your cooked up story of Hagar being a legal wife! Not one! Go and read up the jewish history on this and you will discover that it corroborates what is in the bible. Therefore, the account in the quran has no pre-islamic support! It is just a bold-faced lie!! Most of the OT stories can be well substantiated. But why does the story of the quran always go against all of history ?

Will God have stood doing nothing to stop his friend from such an act, then later decided adultery is bad? God knows everything before it happens, He puts it in motion, allowing it to happen, in reality.

Unfortunately no one can claim to know God perfectly but its more unfortunte that you dont know that God has given us free will to do what we want and make our own decisions right? How would God have stopped Abraham from sinning? Why not ask me why He did not stop Eve from sinning too ? On a lighter note, did he stop Mohammad from sinning ?

[b]reality is that Hagar came to the household of Abraham, not as a slave, but as a bride from the household of coptic king Pharaoh of egypt. [/b]do princesses become slaves when she was not captured in conflicts, but given out as si=uch wilingly by the king? no.

One of the many lies that was sold to Mohammad to enable him go contrary to the Bible. Mohammed's fables like many others contradicts what is in the Torah, the Old Testament and every documented known history. and there is nothing to back up his claims ! I m sure you are beginning to see deep elements of a fraudster here !

the whole story of ishmael and his mother and abraham and sarah is riddled with suggestive lies, and false statements. at the end of it all, none of the prophesies of harshness became a reality on the person called ishmael. he was neither a will backside nor a killer of anyone or was killed by anyone. instead, it was isaac that lost his sight and had a terrible and conniving wife who destroyed a son to elevate another. the son elevated was full of treacheries.

i am using your bible, but Quran is silent about all of them,

wondering if the christians who taught muhammad the Bible which became the Quran wanted the Quran, his own invention under Muhammad to be better than the book of his own religion?

the reason for that was made very clear in the comic. You dont need to wonder. face the facts!  Mohammad became a willing tool and played to the gallery. You have not researched enough on the histroy of your religion and why Mohammad had no history or prophesy to back his coming to the world up! He was just an usurper and a smart man who has created a religion out of pre-islamic arabia.

if out of wedlock Ishmael was born to Abraham, and therefore not his heir, first spiritual son, and birth, then Jesus who was conceived out of wedlock, suffers the same condition, at least.

Dont talk like an illiterate now. haba! DId your quran not tell us of the immaculate conception of Jesus ?   You can see how confused you have become ? I just pity you. You can clearly see how you are sweating in trying to defend the indefensible ?   You are really in-between! So confused.

finally the view of islam on Jesus and his mother is unique to itself, completely different from any christian sect, catholics or not. Jesus is Messenger and Prophet (AS) to his Chidren fo israel nations, world, people, tribes. his mother marry is no more than a good woman, though you cgist may say she is a love-peddler, scum of the earth. we in Islam defended her as a woman, young, unmarried and not in the household of Jeseph before she got pregnant.[b] if all of these the catholic agrees with islam, when we differ as in you and them saying Jesus is a God in trinity, it will be a good faith to acknowledge it. [/b]afterall, you are not different from each other about jesus being your God in additional to Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Eloi, or Adonia, and of course te holy Ghost.

Slyly acknowledging the " treaty" between the two of you. It is interesting how this drama has unfolded! Islam is purely a hoax ! A smart creation of men in order to deliberately besmirch the work of Jesus Christ.

Is Allah an idol, a moon god, the reason moon is on mosque? there is no idol of Allah ever, even when the arabs were pure pagans, they knew there is an existing Creator, ust like every society does. Allah is that Creator, while Olorun is in Yoruba, God is in English to just name a few of tribal or societal languages. is a moon god anywhere around the muslims, Kaaba or not? none. there are videos that show the inside of Kaaba. its nothing special about it, except that the inside is empty.

that is the hoax that will perpetually keep you in servitude till the end of your life! They will only tell you what they want you to hear. May be you should do astral travelor those psychic things   . May be that will help you figure out the idol inside the Kaaba. Go and ask them that you want to see what is inside whether they wont dislocate your neck  . Until then, keep banging your head on the floor facing Mecca in honour of a stone (idol) inside a Kaaba.

Let me take you back to the very foundations of Islam.

According to the Quran, the Ka'aba was re-built by Abraham and Ishmael, and has presumably been the center of worship for Allah's people, ever since. However in the 7th century AD in which Mohammed lived, the Ka'aba was a center of pagan worship, of some 360 rock idols that resided in and around the Ka'aba. Mohammed took issue with the polytheists and eventually gained the power to have all of the rock idols removed ,  except for the black stone - a meteorite - that still resides at the Ka'aba today. I have told you to ask the Saudi aauthorities to allow you see inside of that Kaaba that they say is directly under teh gate of heaven! So much fables I tell you. So the question begs, that if Allah commissioned the above described building to be constructed at the center of the world, and below the gate to heaven, why then did God give Moses specific  instruction to build a tabernacle on Mount Moriah, that was completed almost 3,000 years ago, that stood 766miles from where Mecca is today?

One of the difficulties with Mohammed's view is that there is no record - outside of Islamic tradition - of Abraham ever having been in Mecca. An even greater - indeed insurmountable - difficulty is that there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed, prior to the first few centuries AD. While there is plenty of such evidence that confirms that Arabian cities like Qedar, Dedan and Teima were established long before, there is no such evidence that Mecca ever existed before the Christian era - and yet you say Abraham built the Kaaba? Not one finding of archaeology supports it to prove that it existed !! Try a search like - archaeology of mecca - or - historical and archaeological evidence of mecca. You will see blank !  

If you can find some evidence that predates the first few centuries AD, that demonstrates that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era, I will  appreciate you sharing it with us on this forum. In the absence of such archaeological and historical record, what can be concluded about Mohammed's 7th century religion? A pack of lies of course!

If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Abraham, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological
evidence in the form of artifacts and such, the closer one traveled to this focus of Mohammed's religion. It also follows that there should be
a greater pre-Christian historical record for Mecca, than perhaps most any other Arabian city, but no such record exists. Compare this to
Jerusalem, for example, the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. One can hardly pick up a shovel full of earth in Jerusalem that doesn't contain artifacts, and the closer one gets to Jerusalem, the more concentrated and abundant such artifacts become.

Indeed there are even one million artifacts just on display. In short, no Mecca before the 4th century - no Kaaba before the 5th century = no Islam.

Based on extensive historical and archaeological evidence presented by Dr. Rafat Amari, Mecca was built around the 4th century, by the
Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h, that had migrated to that bleak barren desert wasteland. The Kaaba was constructed by Asa’d Abu Karb in
the early 5th century A.D., when the black stone made it's way to Mecca, most likely also from Yemen. It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.

Geographers and historians from antiquity, note even small Arabian settlements before the Christian era that came and went within a few
centuries, and while the historical accounts about, and artifacts from, ancient settlements confirm the existence of each other, there is no
reference to Mecca or it's Kaaba to be found. This even though it was eventually built on one of the most established trading routes in
Arabia about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Muslim claims that Mecca was the center of the Islamic faith, for thousands of years before Mohammed.

If this were the case, Mecca would certainly have been one of the most written about Arabian cities, by those early geographers and historians.
There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”, that was of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area. Even Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, to places to the north twice a year, long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple. One of the journeys during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun. "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."

, to be continued,

^
contd from above.

Back in those days when a meteorite was discovered in Arabia a temple would be built at the site. Quoting Dr. Amari: "The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black
stone. Ellat, Allah’s wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets." There was no shortage of Kaabas
in Arabia each with it's own black stone. Arabian Star Family temple design left its indelible fingerprints on those temples as well as on the
Kaaba in Mecca, demonstrating that Abraham could not have built it, even if the city of Mecca had existed before the 4th century AD.
Indeed no Muslim will deny that there may have been as many as 360 stone idols located in and around the Kaaba in Mohammed's
day.

Mohammed took issue with the polytheists, and finally gained the power to expel all of the stone idols, which he did ,  except for
the black stone that Muslims still bow toward five times a day. In Islam, each Muslim is required to travel to Mecca to circumambulate
the stone, just as the pagans did before Mohammed. It is also interesting to note that the name of Islam’s holiest city is mentioned - at most - three times in the Quran. Compare this with the name Jerusalem, which is mentioned 814 times in 767 verses, in the Word of God.

In conclusion, in the absence of archaeological or historical record, notions of a pre-first century Mecca or Kaaba it would seem, become nothing more than a desert mirage. There is, however, abundant historical record of veneration of meteorites, including men venerating black rocks in the many Kaabas throughout Arabia.

Perhaps before too long Islam will cease to exist, at least in the mind of any rational person that is exposed to adequate historical
resources, in this information age.

Dont take my word for it-- research these things out and take on a curious mind. Half the time you spend looking for what is not lost in the bible, if you spend it on your quran, you would since have discovered the grand hoax Mohammad, Allah, and the Quran represent.

chakula:

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on
earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

You leave what Jesus has said because you dont have any proof that he did not say it in the first place. I have asked you, produce what he said instead of creating temporal fantacies that do not eliminate the indisputable truths stunning you in the face already about the false calling of Mohammad.

Though I would have loved to answer you but my problem is that you will never understand because your mind is closed to eternal truths as revealed in the Bible. The sword used in that passage for instance is not a physical sword. At least Jesus never raised a sword to strike anyone - no records fo that at least in the quran. So, that should tell you that it was not referring to a physical sword. But your will to keep wallowing in your self-deceit wont allow you see reason even when there is one

Again, it is on record that he said "[b]Those who kill by the sword shall die by the sword, [/b]That clearly tells you that he was talking about a physical sword here unlike the earlier scripture. And he therefore adviced that you should not take up arms. The bible records that when he was to be captured, Peter took up arms and struck an ear of one of the invaders. What did Jesus do in that instance? Tell me! I know you know the story. That was the story behind his statement that those who kill by the sword, shall die by the sword,

These things are very simple to know and understand if only you will remove the blockade and bias you have used to cover you reasoning and be open minded for once. You do not seek to know the truth else, i just laugh at your ignorance when you just do those copy and pastes without understanding the real meaning of what you read.

Parables, analagies and the likes are what Jesus readily used. He was educated you know and a master of words, unlike your own prophet. Some say you even consider his illiteracy a miracle in Islam Amazing !!

Enough said, I wont try to explain to you because you are used to circular and oft blocked reasoning which makes you come to the floor with a mindset which often makes you throw reasoning to the dogs even inspite of obvious realities.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

@cgift; « #307 on: Today at 07:20:08 PM »
[Qote]Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 03:11:14 PM

now, if Muhammad was not sincere and wanted any glory for himself and from anyone, he would have not revealed surah Abasa, and the verses on ending of adoption which brought about marrying his own cousin, a former wife of his former adopted son, who is now just his brother in Islam, his follower.

Mohammad was just a sex-maniac thats all! He could not control his libido! Why did he have 22 wives and restricted you people only to 4 ? You have not answered that question till today. May be because he has the strength of 30 men!! Grin He now analysed you his followers and discovered you have only the strength of 4 men and restricted you people to 4 ? Huh[quote][/Quote]Alhamdulillah. People see that you did not address my statement above. since you are talking about wives, if Muhammad (AS) had 22, it was blessing from Allah. Afterall, he was a prophet, and his condition may have been different. I am just an ordinary man without a revelation from Allah. We see that women are blessings on this earth, and in the lives of men. Women calm men down. of course you wil not know that.
there is a song about the role of women in this world that goes something like this; God bless the little girls 2ice. they grow up to be beautiful women (swann). without them what will men do?
Am grateful that i took the quality of appreciating women from Muhammad (AS). i do hope you take after your leaders; your god, biblical jesus, or paul, etc, etc.
22 wives? hardly. I know Khadijah alone, from age of 25 to about 50 t0 53. Well if am ordinary man lived his life, and at 50 or 53, he will not have the same energy as he did at 25. but a man who was a virgin until he got married at 25 in a society where the life expectance was 24 or just a little higher would not be calibrated as a sex maniac, from the pizm of those who think logically.

i bet that you are not a virgin at 20 in your environment een wth hiv/aids threat since the early 1980s.
why did Muhammad (AS) had more wives than the average muslims of 4? its all in Allah's Plan for him, since even that he is guaranted jannah on the pages of Quran.
If his strength is 30 or more of normal men, he didnt say it, but the people who felt it so said it is so. this is another proof that he was special, a messenger, a prophet. stronger than you know who. thts a blessing and he was not the first. samson was reported to have huge energy, too.

by the way what kinda energy solomon will have at 700 wives, 300 concubines?
what kind of energy Jesus of the bible had at no wife? And before you criticize solomon, he was dubbed "the wise", in the way he dispensed justices and rulings.

And in surah ahzab Allah says to Muhammad no more wife for you apart from these (10 plus late khadijah (RA), een if all of them were to die. why no more wives? legislation is about to end, and when surah Nasrullah (Idhajah) was revealed, his uncle Abbass (ra) started crying that his nephew will have just short time to live because "it is finishing" for revelation. and ahzab says that Muhammad is not the father of any of the men surrounding him. so artificia father son relationship was killed by it.

now i nopuqeater can marry 4 women up to as many as Allah willed for me, so some muslims, keeping 4, with divorce and death, they can end up being usbands of 100s of women, as long as no on time a man has more than 4 and his not marying to a wife was not on a platform of deceit, but the divorce was better or death took place. this is the process of marriage in Islam. Muhammad (AS) is different, since even in his way of fasting and night prayer, he was different. a prophet is always different.



[Quote]Quote
one wonders why didnt zaid leave islam, after this? he did not even protest it, realising that it is a perfect order that Allah brought about by this thing that confounds many.

He feared for his head of course- he did not want it to be removed from off his neck, so he had to be gentle Cheesy. If it were you what wuld you do seeing the dazzling sword in its sheath and the dagger clipped to his side Grin . Would you need any counsel to tell you to maintain ? Grin[/Quote]Alhamdulillah, Muhammad unlike the children of israel's Biblical figures, David and Jezebel, we do not kil because of wives, if we are true muslims. it was Muhammad that paid dower money as zayd's father when he was marrying his cousin, a woman who did not want to marry him because she knew him as a slave before he was adopted.

your statement of untrue is open to te rest of the world to see. Islam that was more important to Muhammad (AS) he did not kill for it (read the instructions in Quran), then why will he kill for wife?

let me turn this around, you see why when Jesus acted as a sinner, people never dare to tell him to his face? to curse a tree, is not a normal behavior you wil agree. to call a person a fool after you have warned that such a word is from those who are destined for hell, is not at all keeping to tradition of honesty. i have plenty of the things that are apparent that your god did that you cant have reason for his doing them, as i tried to educate your mind on the special condition of a prophet wit his Lord.

Before i continue to respond to cgift, i stop to ask, why would The God Who is Perfectly Capable of Absolutely Perfect Forgiveness (ok Salvation in order to include the christians in this question), need to create Jesus and kill him for the sins of men, when He had already forgiven the First man, committing the First sin, without the aid of Jesus in the Process?


As a father, i find that the birth of my first child was the most fulfilling, the biggest happiness, of my fatherhood, and the rest of the following birth, i had became a veteran father, and none of them was as intense as the first. i spent tons of money to raise him. everything was new,

in everything on earth, the first time is alway the most difficult, or most exciting. look at the manufacturers of any machine. the first piece that rolls out of the assembly lines have the greatest maximum utility. take any thing for your example and you will find what i am saying to be true.

If The God Forgave Adam, and his wife Eve (unless somebody is going to tell me that Jesus was a throw back to this forgiveness, or Adam and wife are in hell, the reason i think everyone must thn go to hell, except Jesus, who the christians say is not from Adam, though mary shall as one of the children of Adam and Eve), then we have to accept that forgiveness becomes easier, but not more difficult for God that He will now graduate from no ransome with Adam and Eve to killing a reluctant human being just for lesser crime from what was committed in Paradise?

this thought knocks down any intensity anyone can garner/muster up for salvation of all belongs to Jesus, when the Jews have their own salvation, separately, according to the Christians. even the Bible waters down the great responsibility of biblical jesus. i guess there are many knees that will not bow down to him, mine included.

can any christian take a crack at this? iwant somebody to knock it down.

No one ever said Jesus was God, what's this?
[img]http://s04.flagcounter.com/count/JPIn/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFFFF/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=3/labels=0/pageview=0[/img]

Simple answer why they(non-believers) will never understand this is captured in 1st timothy 3:16-- 'Great is the mystery of godliness, 'God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, so other non-believers will never understand this mystery and purpose of God manifesting in the flesh thru Jesus.

and finally to all christians Read 1st Timothy 1:4, Do not let us give heed to fables and endless geneologies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith so do,

I submit!

science finds it 'easy' to grasp the wave-particle duality of light (proven via experiments) >>> can accept thought experiments (postulated by Einstein) to demonstrate the special theory of relativity >>> yet finds it bamboozling to consider the Trinity >>> just thinking

@Responder: #312 on: Today at 02:58:15 AM »
[Quote]No one ever said Jesus was God, what's this?[/Quote]Many verses of the Bible says he is.


@valacious (m); « #313 on: Today at 01:15:02 PM »
[Quote]Simple answer why they(non-believers) will never understand this is captured in 1st timothy 3:16-- 'Great is the mystery of godliness, 'God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, so other non-believers will never understand this mystery and purpose of God manifesting in the flesh thru Jesus.[/Quote]The statement of Timothy different from that of Jesus and his disciples. Jesus and the disciples said he, Jesus was a no God, but a servant of God, who He sent to his people.


[Quote]and finally to all christians Read 1st Timothy 1:4, Do not let us give heed to fables and endless geneologies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith so do,[/Quote]Statement of Timothy again. Did Jesus have anything to do with Christianity and or gentiles, his own people taking them (The Jews) back to the religion of Abraham, which all the prophets practiced?


@Uyi Iredia (m): « #314 on: Today at 01:25:05 PM »
[quote]science finds it 'easy' to grasp the wave-particle duality of light (proven via experiments) >>> can accept thought experiments (postulated by Einstein) to demonstrate the special theory of relativity >>> yet finds it bamboozling to consider the Trinity >>> just thinking Undecided Undecided[/Quote]Reality and possibilities, you may never discover it, but the heart is able to take it. But lies and falsehoods, even if you force yourself to accept it, your heart will keep you in doubt of it, somewhere in the deepest part of your heart, where your soul will prick you to remain vigilant about the lies that you are living. How is a Perfect God, Who can forgive man Perfectly as He did of Adam and Eve resort into an imperfect way of forgiving masses by making an unwilling man do die, to take the fall for a thing the man had nothing to do with? God does not blame somebody else for the sin and shortcomings of another. Afterall, that person that is blamed wrongly had no control of the man who offended. The human courts will not do it. God is more just, more merciful, more practical than all man can put together. Dont fault God for your impossible theories.

@cgift; though you do not answer any of my questions, i will write for the general audience, at large.

[Quote]Quote
reality is that Hagar came to the household of Abraham, not as a slave, but as a bride from the household of coptic king Pharaoh of egypt. do princesses become slaves when she was not captured in conflicts, but given out as si=uch wilingly by the king? no.

One of the many lies that was sold to Mohammad to enable him go contrary to the Bible. Mohammed's fables like many others contradicts what is in the Torah, the Old Testament and every documented known history. and there is nothing to back up his claims ! I m sure you are beginning to see deep elements of a fraudster here ![/Quote]Again, what you call truth, is perception of the Jews, simply the bible. by the way, the stories are human stories. not jewish, not anyone. Hagar was an Egyptian princess. I cant imagine a king giving away his daughter to slavery. So to say that she was a maid to Sarah, a person who was riding on the coat tail of Abraham, is stretching the point alot. This is enough response, considering that the Bible says Pharaoh of the flood of Moses did not drown, but went back to his palace alone, allowing only his soldiers to drown does not know the mind of arrogance, tyranny and warriors. Quran says he drowned and the body will be a sign to future generations of what became of him and the end of evil people. Today, the body of that Pharaoh is one of the most known Mummies, from Egypt. Quran leads the Bible here, once more. This is correction, the duty of another comforter.



[Quote]Quote
the whole story of ishmael and his mother and abraham and sarah is riddled with suggestive lies, and false statements. at the end of it all, none of the prophesies of harshness became a reality on the person called ishmael. he was neither a will backside nor a killer of anyone or was killed by anyone. instead, it was isaac that lost his sight and had a terrible and conniving wife who destroyed a son to elevate another. the son elevated was full of treacheries.

i am using your bible, but Quran is silent about all of them,

Quote
wondering if the christians who taught muhammad the Bible which became the Quran wanted the Quran, his own invention under Muhammad to be better than the book of his own religion?

the reason for that was made very clear in the comic[/Qoute]The protestant comedian says that the Catholics, and Pope (A group the Protestant took their document an bastardize it) wanted to have a counter religion against the Children of Israel. Thats what the comic proposed. If it is different, please correct me. Is christianity not from Judaism? Is that not a counter religion against the Chidren of Israel, enough? Is catholic sect not Christians, even earlier than Protestants, the johnny comes lately of christendom? Listen to Quran: you find that no one who says he is a christian, still remaining in christianity will excite anyone to go against Judaism and Christianity in their foundamental core beliefs as Quran does. Could a christian have taught this anti christian's Jesus is God to Muhammad (AS) and still remain a christian and was not the leadership of Islam, allowing Muhammad (AS) to be independent and never comes out to say I am the teacher of Muhammad, the fraud? Are you kidding me? You are not thinking and I consider you to be a joke.



[Quote]You dont need to wonder. face the facts! Mohammad became a willing tool and played to the gallery. You have not researched enough on the histroy of your religion and why Mohammad had no history or prophesy to back his coming to the world up! He was just an usurper and a smart man who has created a religion out of pre-islamic arabia.[/Quote]If prophesy alone is the yardstick of messengership, Notradammus is better than Jesus of the Bible who said he will be back before all those who heard him died. Jesus had not came. Jesus also said the Another Comforter will hear what God says and repeats it, and in that process, he will not say anything of his own and people will hear him and he will abide with us, forever as Jesus does abide by us, forever as Moses does abide with us for ever, etc. Now if it is the holyghost, how is he abiding with us for ever, in like manner as Jesus is abiding? Where is the written words that the holy ghost heard and repeated? Who heard the holy ghost speak and what was his language of speech? What did he correct people for, in their mistakes, because you have to correct a mistake, you cant correct a right? what new thing, which is all that the holy ghost taught? And how did it glorify or elevate Jesus, correctly? If you cant give us these information, know that Jesus prophesy is wrong, again. Wha about saying he is Servant of God, and you saying he is God; which one of you is correct, and who is wrong?




[Quote]Quote
if out of wedlock Ishmael was born to Abraham, and therefore not his heir, first spiritual son, and birth, then Jesus who was conceived out of wedlock, suffers the same condition, at least.

Dont talk like an illiterate now. haba! DId your quran not tell us of the immaculate conception of Jesus ? Grin You can see how confused you have become ? I just pity you. You can clearly see how you are sweating in trying to defend the indefensible ? Grin You are really in-between! So confused.[/Quote]illiterate, I am. Now educate me about the difference. If Ishmael is an illegitimate, and thats the reason he has no right to Abraham's heritage, though all arabs get circumcised, and not all Jews are circumcised, specifically the ones from Eastern blocks, then Jesus must be a bastard to whoever you claim is his father. I summit to you that no parents will tell you that the joy they got from the birth of the first is less than and not greater than what they get from successive births. I am a father of children and I know it. You said you have a young daughter; is she your first? Then wait until you begin to have more and quantity the excitement of fatherhood in comparison with the first, side by side with any of the remaining. What you have been showing the world is that you thnk with empty mind.




[Quote]Quote
finally the view of islam on Jesus and his mother is unique to itself, completely different from any christian sect, catholics or not. Jesus is Messenger and Prophet (AS) to his Chidren fo israel nations, world, people, tribes. his mother marry is no more than a good woman, though you cgist may say she is a love-peddler, scum of the earth. we in Islam defended her as a woman, young, unmarried and not in the household of Jeseph before she got pregnant. if all of these the catholic agrees with islam, when we differ as in you and them saying Jesus is a God in trinity, it will be a good faith to acknowledge it. afterall, you are not different from each other about jesus being your God in additional to Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Eloi, or Adonia, and of course te holy Ghost.

Slyly acknowledging the " treaty" between the two of you. It is interesting how this drama has unfolded! Islam is purely a hoax ! A smart creation of men in order to deliberately besmirch the work of Jesus Christ.[/Quote]Am not a christian, catholic or otherwise, and I will not be a Jew. My neighborhood is populated with Jews. The next door neighbors, right and left are Jews. Jesus did nothing, except what ALlah alowed for him as a miracle of his messengership. This is the reason you have the Biblical statement from him "Of my own power, I can do nothing!" Grow some ability to reason, please. Just the other day, a man was asking me why Muslims are not to consume interest. After explanation, e retort that if the muslims have spoken lies, since the Bible does not contain any prohibition of it, he still respects the opinions of the muslims. My answer to him was direct; there is no one that knows an easier way that will abandon it for a stray jacket on himself; with all the leeways and freedoms to do what you want that Christianity carries, there is no reason for Islam to be brought about with hard resolves, except that it is true, otherwise it should be a religion that is made alot easier than christianity. If I can have sex with any wiling partner as long as Jesus blood covers, why would I prohibit myself from such an enjoyment, except that there is a consequence to such an action and Jesus blood covers no one except the gullibles?[/quote]

@cgift; [Quote]The people who taught Mohammed the stories of the Bible did a wicked job. Grin Thank God you read that comic story. Its a classic.I I am sure you would have seen another perspective entirely. I appreciate your response. You must however know that in their bid to create a religion t ocounter Christianity the Arabs,the stories had to be twisted . All the ancient biblical manuscripts of old written ever before Mohammad was born all say the same thing about the relationship between Abraham, Sarah his wife, and Hagar the slave. Not one manuscript supports your cooked up story of Hagar being a legal wife! Not one! Go and read up the jewish history on this and you will discover that it corroborates what is in the bible. Therefore, the account in the quran has no pre-islamic support! It is just a bold-faced lie!! Most of the OT stories can be well substantiated. But why does the story of the quran always go against all of history ?[/Quote]The Jewish story is the Bible itself. If you grasp this, then you will know that there are no sources of story, but just the Jew's viewpoint, which is the Bible. I see that you do not do deep thinking (sorry). So I have to peel off the layers for you. Take for example, in the Bible Ishmael, without doing anything that annoyed God, the Bible says the Angel of God said to his mother and even his father that he will be a wild man (ass) and his personal hands will be on nations and that of the nations on him. Well, none of these happened to him in his life. Well, if you transfer this on this bloodlines, the Arabs, Christians and the Majority Muslims of them, I now ask you what happened to the Isaac who the Bible said is blessed, along with his children, the Jews? Their story is more disastrous than what has happened to the arabs, thus far; Isaac married his enemy, Rebbecca, who is an enemy to a son and aly to another. Isaac was blind. Jacob ran away from enemies and fought an angel, and got his hip broken. From the sons of jacob, they lied to him, and sold his son Jacob into slavery. In Egypt, the finally became slaves, until Moses can, who you said God sent him an errant and at the same time tried and failed to kill him! Is this God trying to kill His Own Messenger who has not finished the errant He sent him? The same God failed to accomplish His own intention to kill a human being? Should I remind you of the holocaust of the so called blessed people? Up to before the middle of the 19th century, no calamity befell the Arabs, the children of Ishmael, while Isaac and Jacob and all their descendants suffered all and more than the above.

And if Hagar was not a legal wife of Abraham, then Abraham had committed adultery. Sarah being an accomplice of such a lewd act was a guilty party as well. Then you have to recluse Hagar from it, because she was not in the position of refusal, just like the house helps the owners of the house sleep with. i have not seen a possibility where Sarah who is assumed to be a mean woman who sent an innocent son away, regardless of what his mother did, if she did anything at all to upset Sarah will suggest that Abraham sleeps with Hagar, knowing fully well that it is adultery, while she came from a culture where the polygamy marriage is practiced. It does not make sense. Yet it appears in the pages of the Bible. Another mystery, like the Trinity, and others. They all defy practicality, logic and good sounding faith, except that it must be blind faith.

Again, when we say the Bible is corrupt, we are simply saying that it is not 100% original, as it was revealed, as Torah (already corrupted now) Psalm (already corrupted now), Gospel (Already corrupted now), and we know that the Acts of Apostles (just an act by its name) and Revelations are not revealed, but made up, at best derived from OT and NT, which are already corrupted, anyway. Allah says of them; they have removed, added and changed the words from there places.

The fact that Quran gave a different account show that it is not a copy of the Bible, but the correction of it, as it is the duty of the Another Comforter to Correct. (Read your bible; you will still find some truth in it, that Quran agrees with).




[Quote]Quote
Will God have stood doing nothing to stop his friend from such an act, then later decided adultery is bad? God knows everything before it happens, He puts it in motion, allowing it to happen, in reality.

Unfortunately no one can claim to know God perfectly but its more unfortunte that you dont know that God has given us free will to do what we want and make our own decisions right? How would God have stopped Abraham from sinning? Why not ask me why He did not stop Eve from sinning too ? On a lighter note, did he stop Mohammad from sinning ?[/Quote]Let me answer your lighter note first. Sin is action against established commandment of God, since we are talking about spirituality here. It is equal to a crime. Muhammad (AS) was prevented by his Lord not to commit any sin. In many ways, and if you read the Tafsir of the first 5 verses of Surah Ta Ha, you will see that Muhammad so said he has to be grateful to his Lord Who has even forgiven his sins of the future even in the presence. How can the sins of the future be forgiven? You are prevented from committing them, a barrier is set between you and the sins. SO when Allah says of him, "Muhammad" ask forgiveness of your sins, it is to point us Muslims tat we are in need of forgiveness and just being a believer without seeking His Protection and Forgiveness is not enough. Muhammad (AS) when asked if he had a jinn like all children of Adam, except Maryam and Isa bin Maryam (AS), he said yes, except that my Jinn, Allah had subdued it for me, made him a pure believer, and can not tempt me. Yet in the Bible the christians say that Jesus was tempted by Satan, a Jinn! Which book is now the perfect word of God, and which one is full of confusion, while it says God is not the Author of Confusion?

So, you find your Lord so weak that since he gave free will to man, hHe cant protect man from what man does? How about jesus saying "of my own power, I can do nothing. It is God (Eloi) that does everything for me"? Is that not going against the grain of God not able to protect His elect, while Abraham was an Elect and a Personal Friend of God?

Finally, while you blame Eve for the First sin, we in Islam say that the sin is committed by both spouses, Adam and his wife. And God had forgiven them as He had inspired them to say word of Forgiveness, without any other ransome, but just that words inspired in them which they uttered. If God Forgave them with mere words from their lips, why would God now need a human blood, according to you His own blood, and His own son's blood (you choose what jesus is today in the two), to forgive lesser sins, committed on earth? The sins of Adam and Eve were in Paradise, remember? A place purer than the earth.

OMG i have missed alot in this thread but Glory be to Almighty Allah that has given us the best knowledge and thank to the Author of this thread i have posted some thread where the Bible permited killing you can check it out with proofs

I know the basic minded cgift will claim that my above posts run together. A smart mind will know where the one begins and where the one beore it ends. I will leave him into his ignorance so that he can wonder aout aimlessly, reading a confused book, with a disclaimer of God does not Author confusion. Of course Paul does author such a book.

[QUote]that is the hoax that will perpetually keep you in servitude till the end of your life![/Quote]A yoruba man knows the difference between gods (idols, carvings, physical or the one ingrain in the heart, imagined) and The God. I am worshipping The God, Allah the ALmighty. No representation and no imagination can capture His Essence. Thats different from you who took one god, human who bled, ate, deficated, yearned, etc like every human and drop Ogun in front of your bloodlines, and you think you are now better than the animists of your father's ancestry.



[Quote]They will only tell you what they want you to hear.[/Quote]Thank Allah. I am in a place that I can ask questions and force the truth out of a liar, like I am doing here. For 1400 years and rising, Islam has mentained the same essence; God is One and not partnership, no son, no parent and does not die and Independent of all while all depend on Him, alone. Capable of forgiving all at the same time and does not need anyone to assist Him.



[Quote]May be you should do astral travelor those psychic things Grin.[/Quote]I do not need a witch like involvement in my life. I live that to you a trinitarian because ALlah, The One God is enough for me. You see, you are the one who needs a representation, a cross, a mural of a paint.



[Quote]May be that will help you figure out the idol inside the Kaaba. Go and ask them that you want to see what is inside whether they wont dislocate your neck Grin. Until then, keep banging your head on the floor facing Mecca in honour of a stone (idol) inside a Kaaba.[/Qote]Muslims are forbiddento hurt themselves. This religion is not made as a burden on you, Allah says in the Quran. My neck is clearly intact on my neck. Go to church and tell your pastor that a follower of Muhammad said that Jesus is no God because he said he cant do anything of his own accord. See if you come home alive, but in a pine box, dressed up in black suit on the way to hell fire. On the Youtube "Inside The Kaaba" is a video that you can view. I have to teach you everything. No independent initiative. If you wanna argue prepare yourself with facts.




[Quote]Let me take you back to the very foundations of Islam.

According to the Quran, the Ka'aba was re-built by Abraham and Ishmael,[/Quote]The question for you is who built it first? Those two who met each other on mount Arafat is a clue. I am sure you dont know.



[Quote]and has presumably been the center of worship for Allah's people, ever since. However in the 7th century AD in which Mohammed lived, the Ka'aba was a center of pagan worship, of some 360 rock idols that resided in and around the Ka'aba. Mohammed took issue with the polytheists and eventually gained the power to have all of the rock idols removed , except for the black stone - a meteorite - that still resides at the Ka'aba today.[/Quote]Between belief and disbelief, there is always a period of time, before belief dissolves and disbelief becomes dominant. Belief dominated initially, before idolatry entered Makka and it became the center of paganism. Let me educated you a little; After Moses, and before Jeus {as}, the Bible said that idolatry entered the house of israel, and Solomon worshipped foreign gods. This condition of Time of Ibrahim in Makka and Muhammad returning them to it, is exactly the same. You must be a juvenile in your mind. Its a statement.



[Quote]I have told you to ask the Saudi aauthorities to allow you see inside of that Kaaba that they say is directly under teh gate of heaven![/Quote]The K'aba is directly under Bait Mamur. Bait Mamur is where Ibrahim's soul is resting, the physical Ibrahim (AS) is leaning against it, and 70,000 angels are entering it, to perform tawaff and never to return to it, and new angels do this daily. You dont even know this.



[Quote]So much fables I tell you. So the question begs, that if Allah commissioned the above described building to be constructed at the center of the world, and below the gate to heaven, why then did God give Moses specific instruction to build a tabernacle on Mount Moriah, that was completed almost 3,000 years ago, that stood 766miles from where Mecca is today?[/Qute]Show me a tabernacle of Moses standing and read your Bible that Abraham built a place of worship to God. And Abraham is many centuries ahead of Moses. Abraham's place of worship is the ka'aba and remember God had an original and primary coenant with him. Read your Bible, Allah preserves enough for me to lead you to the truth of Islam.



[Quote]One of the difficulties with Mohammed's view is that there is no record - outside of Islamic tradition - of Abraham ever having been in Mecca. An even greater - indeed insurmountable - difficulty is that there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed, prior to the first few centuries AD. While there is plenty of such evidence that confirms that Arabian cities like Qedar, Dedan and Teima were established long before, there is no such evidence that Mecca ever existed before the Christian era - and yet you say Abraham built the Kaaba? Not one finding of archaeology supports it to prove that it existed !! Try a search like - archaeology of mecca - or - historical and archaeological evidence of mecca. You will see blank ! Grin[/Quote}Before I do any search, shall I remind you that Jerusalem was not known as such before Abraham lived in it. Yet it was a lan that existed along with the rest of the world, or are you assuming it just appeared all of a sudden, as a desert, not a land teaming with greens? The fact that it is a desert shows that it must have weathered away from such a green beginning, like sahara before it became a desert, whereby the nutrients are stripped off gradually. Now, how do you explain the zam zam in Makka and where did Ibrahim's son Ismail (AS) and mother Hajah settled after they left the house, to test the faith of Ibrahim? Tell me, mr. know it all. I know you did not know that these ideas and questions will come up. Hindsight is 20/20, they say. And seeing that the Jews were at least able to say that Ishmael participated in the burial of his father, shows that Isaa and his children had relationship with Ishael and Abraham never abandoned his first child, a loyal son who grew up without being a blind man and didnt stick with a bad wife who betrayed him to turn another child and all the evils that the Bible recorded for the huse of Isaac, Jacob, and his children into slavery.

If you can find some evidence that predates the first few centuries AD, that demonstrates that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era, I will appreciate you sharing it with us on this forum. In the absence of such archaeological and historical record, what can be concluded about Mohammed's 7th century religion? A pack of lies of course!

Zam zam is enough evidence. Better ask yourself, if Ishmael started a nation, from where? How did he survive, etc and who are these people that came from him? But then, after all the education that you will get from us here, you will still have the blind faith of Christendom.




[Quote]If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Abraham, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological evidence in the form of artifacts and such, the closer one traveled to this focus of Mohammed's religion. It also follows that there should be a greater pre-Christian historical record for Mecca, than perhaps most any other Arabian city, but no such record exists. Compare this to
Jerusalem, for example, the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. One can hardly pick up a shovel full of earth in Jerusalem that doesn't contain artifacts, and the closer one gets to Jerusalem, the more concentrated and abundant such artifacts become.[/Quote]Before the city of Jerusalem, Makka was. Before any man settled in Jerusalem, Adam and Eve settled in Makka. When they descended from heavens, Allah made them meed each other at Mount Arafat. Your Bible will never tell you that. Your Bible cant pin point Garden of Eden. The first house built to worship God, is that Ka'aba, by Adam (AS).Adam's religion was Islam. All believers in One God, without partnership, are muslims. Islam was a process that began on mankind, from Adam and completed on Muhammad (AS). Between them, there were the form of Islam practiced by Noah, Abraham, Moses, (unless you will say that they were Jews and that they practiced Judaism?), and all others, including Jesus practiced the form of Islam that Allah prescribed and make it fit their people their time. When Paganism entered Makka, Islam had to leave, in time. Truth will not remain where falsehood is. When Islam of Muhammad (AS) entered Makka, it took almost 23 years before paganism disappeared. Now if you cant get that, then try this: Was christianity the religion of the noble men that I listed, above? Was Christianity a religion of Jesus? Did Jesus belong to the Chrstian faith? Was there a form of Christianity before Jesus? Was Jesus a Christian, and will Gdod have to practice a religion to worship a God, himself? This proof to you that Christianity is not a religion that heas areal root and that jesus belonging to the faith of Abraham was not a practioner of the Jewish faith, but a muslim and he was not a God, for God Commands, but does not practice a religion.




[Quote]Indeed there are even one million artifacts just on display. In short, no Mecca before the 4th century - no Kaaba before the 5th century = no Islam.[/Quote]there was Makka, along with the rest of the earth. There was Kaaba before the flood of Noah. There was islam before Noah (AS) and at the time of Adam (AS), unless you will say neither of these men was religious, worshiper of God, obedient to His Commands, and the disobedience calls for seeking Mercy and Forgiveness from Him, otherwise He can punish as He wishes, the reason the people of Noah perished in the flood. Ibraham saw the foundation of the Kaaba from the time of the old, and he followed it in errecting its walls. Just imagine if the Jews had spoken the truth and let you know that Abraham was not as heartless as the Bible painted him, that he and his son Ishmael kept up relationship and Sarah was not a mean woman who sent a helpless child away in the company of a young vibrant wife wo probably looked at her as a second mother, since she was from Egypt, and would you then not doubt that just maybe the Bible was all a lie; and Isaac could not have been the sacrificing child, especially when the mother who didnt believe God when the news was broken to her, of that child, and she is advanced in age and knew she may never have a second child? Compare that to this young woman, who could bear babies, in the prime of her child bearing life. Which baby do you think God will command for sacrifice? If it was Isaac, Sarah woud have forced the Jewish God to take that command back, based on the hard nose image the Bible gac=ve us of her. So, in a nutshell, Allah called a place Aqsa, before Masjid Aqsa was built on it, if you do not believe that Makka existed and Kaaba was built in it before the 4th Century, at least know that when the well of Zam zam was what saved Baby Ismail (AS), the city of Makka, used to be known as Bekka and many others tells a thinking person that water is the primary reason city springs where it does. Las Vegas in the Desert had to get its water from Colorado River. What was the benefit of Zam zam except to bring people to settle in its surrounding? It was stated that many of the children of israel used to go to Hajj in the tradition of the call of Ibrahim, until there appeared on ka'aba the idols.




[Quote]Based on extensive historical and archaeological evidence presented by Dr. Rafat Amari, Mecca was built around the 4th century, by the
Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h, that had migrated to that bleak barren desert wasteland.[/Quote]While anyone migrate to a bleak barren desert wasteland? have you got no sense in your head? Just because Makka was unconquerable, it does not mean that people didnt leave in it. Some say the yorubas are young people of Nigeria. Others, especially the yorubas say that they are old people and migrated from somewhere in the middle east and settled in the place known as Yoruba land, many, many several centuries ago. Your knowledge of the world is shallow. I was going to help you to understand a little bit of the world, better but goggle is acting up now. Next time, i will provide materials on Makka for your understanding.




[Quote]The Kaaba was constructed by Asa’d Abu Karb in the early 5th century A.D., when the black stone made it's way to Mecca, most likely also from Yemen. It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.[/Quote]Is Dr. Rafat a muslim? I wonder whose side he is on; the author of confusion or Truth as it happens without adding your own opinion, speaking of your own mind? Why would a tent appear on this spot, what is the purpose of it, unless if it was to protect a foundation, a footprint of something that was on it, before? Why the kaaba, in 5th Century AD? What was the purpose of it? To start idol worshiping or your website materials did not say? Did the 5th century kaaba builders decided to built a structure, for what purpose, to rival what out of the Children of Isreal, their ruins? Finally, because of time, Surah Fil, if nothing else the defeat of Abraha (you should research this army of Elephant story), is enough to tell you that Makka was a city that existed first on earth and kaaba is protected as Allah Wills it.




[Quote]Geographers and historians from antiquity, note even small Arabian settlements before the Christian era that came and went within a few
centuries, and while the historical accounts about, and artifacts from, ancient settlements confirm the existence of each other, there is no
reference to Mecca or it's Kaaba to be found. This even though it was eventually built on one of the most established trading routes in
Arabia about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Muslim claims that Mecca was the center of the Islamic faith, for thousands of years before Mohammed.

If this were the case, Mecca would certainly have been one of the most written about Arabian cities, by those early geographers and historians.
There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”, that was of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area. Even Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj, or pilgrimage, to places to the north twice a year, long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple. One of the journeys during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun. "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."

, to be continued,
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Re: Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus Christ Is Not God
« #308 on: Yesterday at 07:36:36 PM »

Quote
^
contd from above.

Back in those days when a meteorite was discovered in Arabia a temple would be built at the site. Quoting Dr. Amari: "The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic.[/Quote]How many Kaabas were there? Please list them and give us the reason each crumbled and it remained the one in Makka.




[Quote]This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah’s wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets." There was no shortage of Kaabas in Arabia each with it's own black stone. Arabian Star Family temple design left its indelible fingerprints on those temples as well as on the Kaaba in Mecca, demonstrating that Abraham could not have built it, even if the city of Mecca had existed before the 4th century AD. Indeed no Muslim will deny that there may have been as many as 360 stone idols located in and around the Kaaba in Mohammed's day.[/Quote]You actually deserve Christianity that you say you are. I pity your soul. There is a prayer that we muslims pray: Oh Allah dont let me live a life as if at the end I did not exist, as if you have not created me, a time wasted.



[Quote]Mohammed took issue with the polytheists, and finally gained the power to expel all of the stone idols, which he did , except for
the black stone that Muslims still bow toward five times a day. In Islam, each Muslim is required to travel to Mecca to circumambulate
the stone, just as the pagans did before Mohammed. It is also interesting to note that the name of Islam’s holiest city is mentioned - at most - three times in the Quran.[/Quote]No one bows to Blackstone, kaaba, or anything. Ever. If any does, he/she has left the fold of islam. If any muslim says he/she is a child of God as you people say he/she is not a true muslim. I do not have time to dialogue truly with you. Makka is called by many names in the Quran; the mother of the twon, the mother of the village, bekka, and so on. Your knowledge of things is weak. A smart man could have easily researched what are the names of makka from Quranic viewpoint, and then count how many times it was mentioned in all its forms. If the number of times a name is mentioned is directly connected to its importance, then Eloi Which only Jesus mentioned, and only once, he did must be unimportant.




[Quote]Compare this with the name Jerusalem, which is mentioned 814 times in 767 verses, in the Word of God.[/Quote]The Ot which you simply say its "love God with all your heart and your neighbor as your self" is the word of God, or the NT, which says God is 3? You are joking?


[Quote]In conclusion, in the absence of archaeological or historical record, notions of a pre-first century Mecca or Kaaba it would seem, become nothing more than a desert mirage. There is, however, abundant historical record of veneration of meteorites, including men venerating black rocks in the many Kaabas throughout Arabia.[/Quote]You will have to list the places where the kaabas existed until they vanished, and the reasons for their disappearance.




[Quote]Perhaps before too long Islam will cease to exist, at least in the mind of any rational person that is exposed to adequate historical
resources, in this information age.[/Quote]Allah has protected it so far from Adam to Muhammad (AS), and to this present generation. Ask your christian brothers and sisters living in western countries. The citizens of these countries are steadily slowly but surely streaming into Islam.



[Quote]Dont take my word for it-- research these things out and take on a curious mind. Half the time you spend looking for what is not lost in the bible, if you spend it on your quran, you would since have discovered the grand hoax Mohammad, Allah, and the Quran represent.
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Re: Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus Christ Is Not God
« #309 on: Yesterday at 08:27:43 PM »

Quote from: chakula on Yesterday at 06:09:41 PM
The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on
earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)


You leave what Jesus has said because you dont have any proof that he did not say it in the first place.[/Quote]Neither do you have a definite proof that he said it. Proof: Which one did he day between these two: Iam a servant sent by God, versus I am God, worship me and no one else.
How about these: Of my own power I am powerless, versus I am your Creator and no one else exist but me.




[Quote]I have asked you, produce what he said instead of creating temporal fantacies that do not eliminate the indisputable truths stunning you in the face already about the false calling of Mohammad.

Though I would have loved to answer you but my problem is that you will never understand because your mind is closed to eternal truths as revealed in the Bible. The sword used in that passage for instance is not a physical sword. At least Jesus never raised a sword to strike anyone - no records fo that at least in the quran. Grin So, that should tell you that it was not referring to a physical sword. Grin But your will to keep wallowing in your self-deceit wont allow you see reason even when there is one Cheesy

Again, it is on record that he said "Those who kill by the sword shall die by the sword, That clearly tells you that he was talking about a physical sword here unlike the earlier scripture. And he therefore adviced that you should not take up arms. The bible records that when he was to be captured, Peter took up arms and struck an ear of one of the invaders. What did Jesus do in that instance? Tell me! I know you know the story. That was the story behind his statement that those who kill by the sword, shall die by the sword,

These things are very simple to know and understand if only you will remove the blockade and bias you have used to cover you reasoning and be open minded for once. You do not seek to know the truth else, i just laugh at your ignorance when you just do those copy and pastes without understanding the real meaning of what you read.

Parables, analagies and the likes are what Jesus readily used. He was educated you know and a master of words, unlike your own prophet. Some say you even consider his illiteracy a miracle in Islam Grin Amazing !! Grin

Enough said, I wont try to explain to you because you are used to circular and oft blocked reasoning which makes you come to the floor with a mindset which often makes you throw reasoning to the dogs even inspite of obvious realities.[/Quote]Its Saturday and its 10.46 pm where I am. My other responsibilities will not let m[/quote][/quote][/quote]