viaro:

However, Galatians 5:4 is in view of JUSTIFICATION - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." If one keeps the Law because they are seeking to be JUSTIFIED by that Law, then they are not looking to grace. But on what basis then is the said "obligation" to do the Law? It is on the basis of CIRCUMCISION -

[list]"I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law" - Galatians 5:3, ESV[/list]

In other words, the "obligation" to the Law is on the basis of CIRCUMCISION. In effect, Paul argues this point from verse 2 - "Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you" . . . that is the basis for the statement about "falling from grace".

In all this, for anyone to be "obligated" to do the whole Law, such a person MUST first accept circumcision. If that is not the case, there is no basis for using TITHES to argue that someone has fallen from grace - that is the most hollow and illiterate argument anyone can make from Galatians! Tithes were never given in the Bible as a matter for justification. NEVER! One who gave tithes was not more justified than one who did not give tithes at anytime. So using tithes as an argument foisted upon Galatians is quite uncalled for!

your penchant to manipulate scriptures is not new to me so i am not suprised at your ill conceived post above, even a stark illiterate would know from reading the gal 5:4 that the falling from grace was not specific to the issue of circumcision alone but to keeping the laws as a whole, the law concerning cicumcision was merely used as an example. If you want to educate your self read the whole chaptr in context, you may also wish to read chapter 3 as well it might relieve you of part of your ignorance. That aside we all know that the criminal elements who preach compulsary tithing preach from the perspective of the law which has been anulled for christians. What pains me most is that it is glaring that you of all people know the truth about tithing but you feel more comfortable with preachers using it to scam people instead of telling people the truth about it. You even have the audacity to suggest that we should also preach the scam since it is not "wrong" to give. As christians are we not meant to up hold the truth? Why should we tolerate preachers scamming people in the name of God cause they claim they are using the money to further the gospel. Why didn't Paul and the other Apostles collect same in the excuse they wanted to spread the gospel? I have repeated several times on this forum that my grose is not against tithers my grouse is against those who ware using the name of God and his church to scam people via the false doctrine of tithes as is being preached in our churches today.

Image123:

Thanks for the above viaro. May God enrich and increase you. My only fear is that the types of kunle will not comment on the above, but will at some other time or some other thread make the same assertions. I do hope that that changes

 

Trust you to support any post that supports your trade and your income of filthy lucre   no matter how shallow and poorly conceived the post is olodo.

KunleOshob:

your penchant to manipulate scriptures is not new to me so i am not suprised at your ill conceived post above, even a stark illiterate would know from reading the gal 5:4 that the falling from grace was not specific to the issue of circumcision alone but to keeping the laws as a whole, the law concerning cicumcision was merely used as an example.

I laugh. . . you often sound off like a burnt rat before saying what you want to say. I'm not manipulating Scripture. I quoted and outlined galatians 5 from verse 2 to verse 4 to show that the basis of keeping the whole Law was CIRCUMCISION. If you say no, then show the forum what that basis is. As far as I know, there is not a version of the Bible that argues anything else -

[list]Galatians 5:3, KJV - "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."[/list]

That is where we should start from - if you have anything to counter that from Scripture, you're invited to do so and stop shrilling up and down the street.

KunleOshob:

If you want to educate your self read the whole chaptr in context, you may also wish to read chapter 3 as well it might relieve you of part of your ignorance.

Please educate me - what does Galatians 3 say that is different from what I pointed out in chapter 5? People like you try to cut corners with half-truths so you can throw mud on a simple subject and spout trash all over the place.

KunleOshob:
That aside we all know that the criminal elements who preach compulsary tithing preach from the perspective of the law which has been anulled for christians. What pains me most is that it is glaring that you of all people know the truth about tithing but you feel more comfortable with preachers using it to scam people instead of telling people the truth about it.

Rest you heart, you need not be pained. What perhaps might be painful for you to read is that I have not preached "compulsory tithing" to anybody - nor have I been comfortable with anyone scamming anyone with anything. That does not mean that when you spew dunk here and there I should just let you trail off. Before you go off making unjustified assertions which do not appear in any of my post, why don't you calm down and check yourself?

KunleOshob:

You even have the audacity to suggest that we should also preach the scam since it is not "wrong" to give.

No, I did not say anywhere that anyone should preach any scam, and to put it like that shows you will stop at nothing to lie just to cover up your vacuity of thought! Well done sir, liars always do what you do!

KunleOshob:

As christians are we not meant to up hold the truth? Why should we tolerate preachers scamming people in the name of God cause they claim they are using the money to further the gospel. Why didn't Paul and the other Apostles collect same in the excuse they wanted to spread the gospel? I have repeated several times on this forum that my grose is not against tithers my grouse is against those who ware using the name of God and his church to scam people via the false doctrine of tithes as is being preached in our churches today.

I don't have a grouse with you or anyone else. We can uphold God's truth and not mislead them with unfounded assertions you often make - especially when you lie into other people's posts! Is that how to keep up God's truth? Good to know that your grouse is not against tithers - do I happen to boil your goose somewhere fanciful?

KunleOshob:

Trust you to support any post that supports your trade and your income of filthy lucre  no matter how shallow and poorly conceived the post is olodo.

Hmm, after your noise and complaints, this is all you have to give? Dude, just go sit in the gutter - nothing in Galatians 5 condemns the tither - otherwise you would have had a real problem with them. But thanks for admitting that your grouse is not with tithers, so what then are you yapping up and down for?

viaro:

If therefore we don't have any problem with tithing at all - then by all means PREACH IT!

Preach what Viaro What would be the basis of setting ten percent as the amount to give Let’s preach unconditional giving instead, and let the person paying decides in his heart the percentage to give ranging from 0 to 100%. Preaching tithing would amount to rule setting.

Zikkyy:

Preach what Viaro What would be the basis of setting ten percent as the amount to give Let’s preach unconditional giving instead, and let the person paying decides in his heart the percentage to give ranging from 0 to 100%. Preaching tithing would amount to rule setting.

Perhaps, viaro can give us his own version/understanding of tithes that needs to be preached. Let's see what it is about.

viaro:

@Zikky,

How are you?

I am cool.

viaro:

I agree with Image123 on Luke 6:38. He was spot on

Honestly I wanted Image123 to respond himself. Now you spoilt my fun Viaro. The man is certainly going to hide behind you when and if he responds to my post.

Image123 post was a response to a post I made to gary, maybe I just repeat the posts here for better understanding.

Zikkyy's post

Zikkyy:
You don’t understand. Most people tithe because of the expected benefits (e.g. a 100 fold return or financial security). If you can convince them giving from the heart yield better returns, believe me a good number of people are likely to abandon tithing and adopt your proposed investment model.

Gary's response

garyarnold:
My reply is:  if what you say it true, then most people are tithing for the wrong reason and they have absolutely NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.  These people have absolutely NO heart in their giving, and are the MOST SELFISH INDIVIDUALS AROUND!  I can't believe anyone can fall for this type of false prosperity teaching!  Just shows how gullible people are.

IF you give to get back, you lose most of the blessings.  The REAL blessings come when you give to be giving, with absolutely no expectation of getting anything back.

Image's response

Image123:

Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar. Many repent because of judgement, have they done wrong, or they're not true believers? The end of a thing is better than the beginning mr.

Someone quoting Luke 6v38 is surely not talking about giving and hoping for nothing. I don’t know why you like to defend these people. The man tithe/give because of the belief there will be a downpour of blessings. This is not the message here Viaro. Let me post the bible quote here so other readers can form their own opinion.

Luke 6:34-35 & 38 NIV version

34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Let go back to your post

viaro:

Dear sir, the verses you recommended also show that those who give should do so in expectation of a REWARD. Yes sir, that is CHRISTIAN giving, for sure.  

Your "lending" may be in view of hoping for nothing again; but immediately after that statement is the fact that the giver surely has a REWARD! In fact, it says that your reward shall be great! It has nothing to do with the accusation that someone is greedy for material gain; rather, that verse there says that there is a "reward" for giving.

You see Viaro, the reward is not in the act itself, but in living a good Christian life; unconditional love to your neighbor. Motive is very important here. Giving with the belief there is a reward for it lacks sincerity. It was done with a condition, a reward in mind and that’s very un-Christ-like. We should learn to give because of the joy we bring to others and to us, because of the love we have for our neighbours, because it pleases God, and not because of any reward. That’s some of the qualities that make us Christians Viaro. Now what I get here on NL when the issue of tithe and offering is being discussed is the reward associated with it. Reward for giving is a done deal; it is not even something to think about.

viaro:

Luke 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

You highlighted the portion of the quote that gives the least value to any Christian Viaro, the outcome of our actions. I’ve highlighted below what I believe is most important to the Christian, the act itself and the form it should take.

Luke 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

viaro:

Besides Luke 6:35, what about verse 38 that Image123 mentions?

³⁵Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Verse 35 and 38 seems to be contradictory; I don’t think the bible is about that. I believe verse 38 simply reinforces the message being passed across in v35. For me it’s all about generous giving as the Lord will ensure we also receive as much reward. It’s not about getting paid for any particular transaction.

viaro:

Does the highlighted above remind us any bit about 2 Corinthians 9:6?? ["But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."] If the 'sowing' here is nothing about expecting some reward of sorts at any level, what then is the talk of REAPING?

A focus on the reward for any action lacks sincerity. It's as simple as that.

viaro:

Your "lending" may be in view of hoping for nothing again; but immediately after that statement is the fact that the giver surely has a REWARD! In fact, it says that your reward shall be great! It has nothing to do with the accusation that someone is greedy for material gain; rather, that verse there says that there is a "reward" for giving.

The man that gives only because there is some expected return is greedy for materially gains. His actions are un-Christ-like.

Zikkyy:

Honestly I wanted Image123 to respond himself. Now you spoilt my fun Viaro. The man is certainly going to hide behind you when and if he responds to my post.  
I don’t know why you like to defend these people.

The man tithe/give because of the belief there will be a downpour of blessings.

You see Viaro, the reward is not in the act itself, but in living a good Christian life; unconditional love to your neighbor. Motive is very important here. Giving with the belief there is a reward for it lacks sincerity. It was done with a condition, a reward in mind and that’s very un-Christ-like. We should learn to give because of the joy we bring to others and to us, because of the love we have for our neighbours, because it pleases God, and not because of any reward. That’s some of the qualities that make us Christians Viaro. Now what I get here on NL when the issue of tithe and offering is being discussed is the reward associated with it. Reward for giving is a done deal; it is not even something to think about.

A focus on the reward for any action lacks sincerity. It's as simple as that.

Same problem I had. Viaro is CREDIBLE, known as straight-forward and CAN BE believed. So they use him as a prop to "support" themselves seeing as they have no credibility of their own

The MOTIVE I spoke of. Greed, gain, self-serving, not the Love of God or man

You're preaching to the choir, Zikky! Viaro knows this and supports it. Maybe its sympathy for the Oxen who he feels may be otherwise muzzled but these Oxen are rather ravening lions with an appetite for Naira. Why he so defends them, I wonder? Funny that there is not one of them that can present Scripture aside the regular Malachi and a self-righteous plea that pastors must be listened to being teachers/rabbis/masters/daddy GOs (the precise thing Jesus said to CALL NO MAN in Matt 23:. But since Viaro is knowledgable and credible, they hide behind him openly thanking him for his support

Again, you're preaching to the Choir but lets just say "GBAM"

On being "Christ-like", I won't hold my breath - someone will likely come tell us how it was the Greater Glory (of the here-after) to which Christ looked, that made Him give Himself as God's Sacrifice and so, Christ too was only seeking reward!

@Zikkyy,
I'm very sorry, didn't mean to spoil things at all for anyone. Maybe I tend to look away from reactionary responses and focus more on Scripture. That is not to say that I totally ignore what abuses occur in many places. My passion is for us to look away from the abuses and set our eyes on the Word - that way, if anyone decides to tithe, good; and if anyone else decides to NOT tithe, good as well. That was all.

_______

@ttalks,
I don't think you're a stranger to my position on tithes - unless you want me to go through every single point I made in the past as a repetition here, which would be quite unnecessary.

_______

@commander nuclearboy,
Motive is good and well in place. If that is all you are concerned about, no problem. But I have not been trying to focus more on quarrels that people meet in many places on these things - that is why when we all argue with misinformation on either sides, we create more problems for ourselves.


Do as you are led to do from your heart: there is absolutely no problem in anyone setting aside a tithe - I also made clear that the one who decides to NOT tithe has no problem either. Making anti-tithing arguments the Law for the Body of Christ is unChristian, as much as setting 10% as the only level of our giving. I only reiterate these things because it seems you guys completely ignored them in the various posts I made earlier. 10% or any other % is not all there is to Christian giving - I did not set any amount upon anybody. Please y'all take time to read and digest before reacting - Nigeria is not the only place where Christians live.

I have attended many churches in the poorest areas of town and this is what I hear:

1 - Malachi 3:8-10
2 - God will return 100 fold
3 - If all you have is enough money to pay your electric bill, give that money to the church today and God will bless you with more money than you will need to pay all your bills.
4 - Tithers, ONLY, get in line to pay (or give) your tithe.  After all tithers have paid/given their tithe, we will let the rest of you give your offerings.
5 - The FIRST tenth belongs to God.  Those who don't give it to the church are preventing God from pouring down His blessings to you.
6 - The tithe is the only place in The Word where God says to test Him.
7 - If you are having financial problems, you need to start tithing now. (And yet I find in many cases it is those who faithfully tithe are the ones in financial trouble.)
8 - If you love God, you will keep His commandments and tithe.
9 - God wants to bless you but He can't until you tithe.
and the list goes on.

PURE FRAUD.  To teach tithing as voluntary is wrong, wrong, wrong because it INFERS the Biblical tithe to God - the obligation, the law.  Even those who teach it as voluntary stress the rewards, or returns you will receive.

The church has totally misrepresented The Lord's Tithe and to accept using the word tithe for giving results in more confusion to those who don't understand.

garyarnold:

I have attended many churches in the poorest areas of town and this is what I hear:

1 - Malachi 3:8-10
2 - God will return 100 fold
3 - If all you have is enough money to pay your electric bill, give that money to the church today and God will bless you with more money than you will need to pay all your bills.
4 - Tithers, ONLY, get in line to pay (or give) your tithe.  After all tithers have paid/given their tithe, we will let the rest of you give your offerings.
5 - The FIRST tenth belongs to God.  Those who don't give it to the church are preventing God from pouring down His blessings to you.
6 - The tithe is the only place in The Word where God says to test Him.
7 - If you are having financial problems, you need to start tithing now. (And yet I find in many cases it is those who faithfully tithe are the ones in financial trouble.)
8 - If you love God, you will keep His commandments and tithe.
9 - God wants to bless you but He can't until you tithe.
and the list goes on.

PURE FRAUD.  To teach tithing as voluntary is wrong, wrong, wrong because it INFERS the Biblical tithe to God - the obligation, the law.  Even those who teach it as voluntary stress the rewards, or returns you will receive.

The church has totally misrepresented The Lord's Tithe and to accept using the word tithe for giving results in more confusion to those who don't understand.

^^^
Gary,

I have also attended many churches where tithes are preached and nothing you mentioned up there appear as fraud in what they present. Using these small stories to criminalise those who tithe in general is not healthy - quit it. If you do have a problem with TITHES, deal with the problem. I also have known many anti-tithers who claim that tithers are going to hell - should I then use those anti-tithers' arguments to react against all who are against tithes?

You yourself have allowed that there's no problem in those who tithe - and tithe is 10%. It seems on one hand you're okay with it; but you get very confused soon again and start contradicting what you allow. I asked you to show me where anyone tithing is sinning - you excused it and said nothing about such a sin.

Let's stop all these unnecessary arguments over the fence. I have no problem with anyone using Malachi 3 to teach tithing - before you go shouting, tell me what "OX" in Deuteronomy 25:4 has to do with any form of giving that it is used TWICE in the NT for Christian giving!? There are a lot of other examples where OT verses are quoted in the NT for giving where such OT verses have absolutely nothing to do with any form of giving!

We don't have to use fallacies to condemn tithes. If you don't want to give 10%, live your faith as you may and give everything you have and let's have peace. Might I add that I know firsthand that many anti-tithers cannot give more than that 10% - but I'm not using these experiences to dramatic effects against all who do not wish to tithe.

Zikkyy:

Preach what Viaro What would be the basis of setting ten percent as the amount to give Let’s preach unconditional giving instead, and let the person paying decides in his heart the percentage to give ranging from 0 to 100%. Preaching tithing would amount to rule setting.

It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more. However, there is danger in this - people will always get fixated on the figure, especially when tithe giving is 'separated' or made 'distinct' from other forms of giving.

We should all aspire to give as much as we can, and rightly use examples of OT giving.

Where I draw the line is when it is a 'payment' - i.e. likened to a bill or a compulsory act. It isn't compulsory to give any specific percentage, but God does instruct us to give. Jesus did in the NT, Paul said we should do so with a cheerful heart, and that is what God requires.

My firm belief is that we should de-emphasise the 10% or tithe, but it should not become taboo simply due to abuse by some persons. It is a legitimate form of giving that pre-dates the law or any form of 'mandatory' giving, so it should not be discarded because it has been used for wrong motives.

debosky:

We should all aspire to give as much as we can, and rightly use examples of OT giving.

May God make your cup of blessing run over and never dry! You took that right out of my mouth - and it summarizes the many things I wanted to say. Thank you again!

debosky:

It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more. . . .

I realise you preface this by saying it is your personal belief - but "giving" was NOT mandated in the Old Testament as 10%. In fact even the apostle Paul who wrote the NT passages that are oft quoted on "giving" did not mention, specify, let alone mandate 10%!

Wow, what can I say sing.
Thank you for saving me, thank you viaro (2ce)
Can we safely say viaro is propping(hope that's the dear new vocab) debosky? So I was saved from the jaws of nl critics, how christlike. Keep up the saving christlike attitude viaro. Truly, the Lord knows how to deliver the righteous.
I'm wondering when this people will learn to look at issues from the Word, instead of looking for imaginary enemies of the gospel to attack. They don't even know simple Bible principles, and they'll come hia claiming Pauline status talking anyhow. God will smite YOU. Amen

debosky:

It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more. However, there is danger in this - people will always get fixated on the figure, especially when tithe giving is 'separated' or made 'distinct' from other forms of giving.

We should all aspire to give as much as we can, and rightly use examples of OT giving.

Where I draw the line is when it is a 'payment' - i.e. likened to a bill or a compulsory act.  It isn't compulsory to give any specific percentage, but God does instruct us to give. Jesus did in the NT, Paul said we should do so with a cheerful heart, and that is what God requires.

My firm belief is that we should de-emphasise the 10% or tithe, but it should not become taboo simply due to abuse by some persons. It is a legitimate form of giving that pre-dates the law or any form of 'mandatory' giving, so it should not be discarded because it has been used for wrong motives.

This is a refreshing contribution, I don't know that anyone has argued against any form of GIVING but the MANDATORY nature of the 10%. There are plenty of ways and areas we can practice giving unprompted, if someone has to tell a Christian of their OBLIGATION to give to others and love them with the love of God, something is missing from that Christian's life.

Christ came to show the way and as his heirs, we ought to thread fearfully, I don't even care for "thank you(s)" though it shows appreciation, it adds no value to anything. A Christian don't need to show others what/how he/she is giving as it is between the GIVER and God.

@viaro: Nigerian Christianity is something else, we would love to know where you worship regularly as some of us might want to drop by there anytime we find ourselves in your neck of the woods. I am happy none of what Gary described happens anywhere you've worshiped.

Enigma:


I realise you preface this by saying it is your personal belief - but "giving" was NOT mandated in the Old Testament as 10%. In fact even the apostle Paul who wrote the NT passages that are oft quoted on "giving" did not mention, specify, let alone mandate 10%!

The import of my post is that if tithes or 10% giving was stated (or mentioned) in the OT and can be used as a guide - we should not and cannot simply throw away any references to 'tithe' or '10%' in the bible because of abuse.

Besides, Deuteronomy 26:12 (for example) used the language of 'must' and 'shall' (depending on the translation) when describing tithes and giving to the Levites, sojourners, and so on - that can be classed as mandatory giving in my opinion.  While not ALL giving is mandated as 10%, there are examples of giving being mandated as 10%. I hope that clarifies things.

That things were 'mandated' or not should not stop us from doing them if we are so inspired by the Holy Spirit in line with Jesus' teachings.

Give as you are inspired, and feel free to use the giving of the Israelites in the OT to inspire yourself.

@ viaro

God bless you too!

ogajim:

@viaro: Nigerian Christianity is something else, we would love to know where you worship regularly as some of us might want to drop by there anytime we find ourselves in your neck of the woods. I am happy none of what Gary described happens anywhere you've worshiped.

Haha. . . ogajim!! Howdy bro?
I understand what you mean by 'Nigerian Christianity' - I must've over-reached myself in teasing about "Nigeria is not the only place where Christians live". I see some of what happens when visiting and spending the weekend in London and other places where we find Nigerians aplenty. When at home and not travelling, I'm quite at home in the Baptist Church where I fellowship regularly though.

@ogagim
And nothing is missing from your own christian life, I guess. You've got it all worked out and good to go. Such hypocritic sanctimony.

Image123:

Wow, what can I say sing.
Thank you for saving me, thank you viaro (2ce)
Can we safely say viaro is propping(hope that's the dear new vocab) debosky? So I was saved from the jaws of nl critics, how christlike. Keep up the saving christlike attitude viaro. Truly, the Lord knows how to deliver the righteous.
I'm wondering when this people will learn to look at issues from the Word, instead of looking for imaginary enemies of the gospel to attack. They don't even know simple Bible principles, and they'll come hia claiming Pauline status talking anyhow. God will smite YOU. Amen

^^^ Hehe. . . Image123!  You guys are making me fall off my chair with laughter! Well, viaro didn't save anyone, so don't let them smite you back! As they say in the UK: 'God save the queen' - and us first!

viaro:

@Zikkyy,
I'm very sorry, didn't mean to spoil things at all for anyone.

You are forgiven Viaro 

debosky:

It all depends on your outlook.

Anyway you look at it; tithe is difficult to preach. Even if you preach it as a guide, you are still going to end up locking a good number Christians to a giving level of 10% in the long run.

debosky:

It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more.

Giving was not mandated at 10%. There were various categories of tithe. Also, the tithe to the Levites becomes 12.5% if you have to pay cash (buy-back).

debosky:

My firm belief is that we should de-emphasise the 10% or tithe, but it should not become taboo simply due to abuse by some persons. It is a legitimate form of giving that pre-dates the law or any form of 'mandatory' giving, so it should not be discarded because it has been used for wrong motives.

There is no harm in rightly using examples of OT giving. Giving 10% to your church is not a bad thing if done with sincere love and appreciation of the Almighty. Some people say they give 10% of their income to the church as their contribution to the spread of the gospel, I think it’s a beautiful thing to do. But you can’t preach it debosky, that’s the problem.

debosky:

That things were 'mandated' or not should not stop us from doing them if we are so inspired by the Holy Spirit in line with Jesus' teachings.

Give as you are inspired, and feel free to use the giving of the Israelites in the OT to inspire yourself.

This i can subcribe to 

Image123:

@ogagim
And nothing is missing from your own christian life, I guess. You've got it all worked out and good to go. Such hypocritic sanctimony.

What exactly is the problem Image123 lets hear it. I am sure we can resolve our differences.

@viaro, The Baptists are PRETTY cool, they've contributed more to Nigeria than all the Pentecostal Churches put together if you ask me, following the Catholics and the Anglicans.

Little wonder a friend from Church that relocated back to Nigeria now worships at an Anglican Church instead of you know where

@image123 I am a man on a mission, seeking him and his Revelation more and more no matter what.

@ Zikky re post 275

Well said, Zikky!

Yep, a person can choose to make his own giving 10% BUT you can't go teaching/preaching this to other people. Again, the apostle Paul whose writing on giving is often quoted did not do it; even Jesus Christ Himself did not do it! And it is not as if neither said anything about giving; they both said a LOT about giving but never with reference to 10% and NEVER by recommending to anyone to cross-reference their giving to "tithes"!

Again, 10% giving is not taught or mandated even in the Old Testament; what it says is to share part of the tithe, in agricultural form, with Levites, widows, orphans etc. To misapply that as mandating giving 10% can be compared with the same passages on tithing where the tither was supposed himself to eat part of the tithe ----- should we then take it that as a person was "mandated" to eat "tithe", he should now today be giving 10% to himself?

Enigma:

@ Zikky re post 275

Well said, Zikky!

Yep, a person can choose to make his own giving 10% BUT you can't go teaching/preaching this to other people. Again, the apostle Paul whose writing on giving is often quoted did not do it; even Jesus Christ Himself did not do it! And it is not as if neither said anything about giving; they both said a LOT about giving but never with reference to 10% and NEVER by recommending to anyone to cross-reference their giving to "tithes"!

You have given no reason why this cannot be taught to people. I don't think Jesus taught about every passage in the OT, so are you claiming only those referenced in the NT can be used for teaching or is this restricted to tithes?

Again, 10% giving is not taught or mandated even in the Old Testament; what it says is to share part of the tithe, in agricultural form, with Levites, widows, orphans etc. To misapply that as mandating giving 10% can be compared with the same passages on tithing where the tither was supposed himself to eat part of the tithe ----- should we then take it that as a person was "mandated" to eat "tithe", he should now today be giving 10% to himself?

Deuteronomy 26:12

Every third year you must offer a special tithe of your crops. In this year of the special tithe you must give your tithes to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows, so that they will have enough to eat in your towns. NLT

When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. NIV

Is that not 10%? Isn't it 'giving'? I am not talking about passages talking about eating the tithe - this specific example refers to giving a tithe or 10% to others. It was mandated, using 'shall' and 'must', so again I don't see what you are arguing about.

It is up to an individual to decide whether or not to give 10%, and to whom he/she gives it to. If a person decides to take his 10% to spend it on a church feast, he/she is perfectly entitled to.

Whether it was agricultural form or not, it was 10% of a person's possession given to others - if I choose to see a parallel between that giving and my giving, you can't tell me I'm wrong, since what I am interested in is the PRINCIPLE of giving 10% of what you own for the benefit of others and not the rigorous specifics of trying to comply with the law.

If a principle of giving was used by Abraham and Jacob (albeit in single instances) and commanded by God so that there might be meat in his house (yes I know, all under the 'law') there is nothing stopping anyone from 'advocating' (or preaching) that others also adopting this principle or using it as a guide.

Tithing came from the agriculture - the crops, and the tenth animal in herds and flocks. ONLY farmers tithed. There is no example of any other type of profession that tithed, nor are there any instructions for anyone else to tithe, yet they had various other occupations during that period of time.

Arts and Crafts: Ex. 31:3-5; 35:31-35; 2 Ki. 16:10

Baker: Gen. 40:1-2; Jer. 37:21; Hos. 7:4

Builder: 2 Ki. 12:11; 22:6; Ezra 3:10; Matt 21:42; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7

Carpenter: 2 Sam. 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:11; 2 Chr. 24:12; Ezra 3:7; Isa. 44:13; Matt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3

Cook: 1 Sam. 8:13; 9:23-24

Doorkeeper: 2 Ki. 22:4; 25:18; 1 Chr. 15:23-24; Jer. 35:4

Fisherman: Isa. 19:8; Jer. 16:16; Ezek. 47:10; Matt. 4:18; 13:48; Lk. 5:2

Foremen: Ruth 2:5-6; 1 Ki. 5:16; 2 Chr. 2:2, 18; Matt. 20:8

Fortune Teller: Deut. 13:1-3; Acts 16:16

Goldsmith: Neh. 3:8, 31-32; Isa. 40:19; 41:7; 46:6; Jer. 10:9, 14; 51:17

Hunter: Gen. 10:9; 25:27; Jer. 16:16

Innkeeper: Lk. 10:35

Mason - Stonemasons: 2 Sam 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15; 2 Chr. 24:12

Merchant - Trader: Gen. 23:16; 37:28; 1 Ki. 10:15; Neh. 13:20; Ezek. 27:3, 22-23; Matt. 13:45

Musician: 1 Ki. 10:12; 1 Chr. 6:33; 9:33; 2 Chr. 5:12

Perfume Maker: Ex. 30:25, 33, 35; 37:29; 1 Sam. 8:13; Neh. 3:8

Prostitute: Gen. 38:15-24; Lev. 21:14; Josh. 6:17, 25; Judg. 11:1; 16:1; Jer. 3:1; Joel 3:3; Matt. 21:31-32; Lk. 15:30; 1 Cor. 6:15-16; Jas. 2:25

Scribe - Teacher of the law: 1 Chr. 2:55; 1 Chr. 24:6; 27:32; Neh. 8:1; 13:13; Jer. 36:26; Matt. 2:4; Mk. 2:6; Acts 4:5

Silversmith: Judg. 17:4; Prov. 25:4; Acts 19:24

Spinning - Weaving: Ex. 28:3; 35:25-26; 2 Ki. 23:7; Prov. 31:19; Acts 9:39

Stonecutters: 1 Ki. 5:15; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15

Supervisor: 2 Chr. 31:13; 34:17

Tanner: Num. 31:20; Acts 9:43; 10:6, 32

Tax Collector: Dan. 11:20; Matt. 10:3; Lk. 5:27

There is NO example of any of the above tithing, nor was there a provision is God's well-defined tithing command. The command to tithe was not a principle, it was a law, to be followed as it was written.

It is plain to see that giving did NOT begin at ten percent in the Old Testament. The tithe was PAID, not a gift, and paid ONLY by Israelite farmers. The others gave offerings; there giving did not begin at ten percent.

Since we are morally obligated to be givers, there is and was no ten percent guideline or starting point anywhere in the Bible. To use the OT tithe as a guide for giving doesn't make sense for several reasons. First, as already stated, the tithe wasn't giving. Next, not everyone was required to tithe - ONLY Israelite farmers, and ONLY from crops and animals.

The part of the world I live in is known as the Agricultural Capital of the World. Agriculture is what the economy is in this part of the US. Yet no pastor asks for a tenth of crops and animals - they want money, even though many church members are farmers. How can any pastor justify saying tithing on income is the principle of the OT tithe when income was NOT tithable?

@debosky

Before I break down Deuteronomy 26 and "giving" down further, I have a question.

If you are following "PRINCIPLE" and especially the "PRINCIPLE" in Deuteronomy 26, how come you are giving your own "tithes" or 10% into a church?

Why don't you follow "PRINCIPLES "and "give" your "tithes" or 10% to today's equivalent, in "PRINCIPLE", of Levites, widows and orphans?

Kindly tell me the written law that made Abraham and Jacob DECIDE to tithe.

I am always amused when people try to limit any references to the tithe to the period of the law.  

Secondly you are wrong on another count - Scribes/Teachers of the law didn't tithe?  

Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Again, exercise caution when trying to make definitive statements.

No one said giving began or ended at 10% - are there instances of giving in the OT at 10%? YES - by the fathers of the faith, and it was recognised as acceptable to God, documented in Hebrews. If it was acceptable then, I can choose to do so, just like Jacob did. What I choose to give 10% from is my decision - Jacob made a vow to give 10%, so no one can tell me not to give 10%, or aspire to give 10% and above, or any other percentage based on their own hang ups.  What I choose to use as a giving guideline cannot be decided by you or anyone else.

Enigma:

@debosky

Before I break down Deuteronomy 26 and "giving" down further, i have a question.

If you are following "PRINCIPLE" and especially the "PRINCIPLE" in Deuteronomy 26, how come you are giving your own "tithes" or 10% into a church?

Why don't you follow "PRINCIPLES "and "give" your "tithes" or 10% to today's equivalent, in "PRINCIPLE" of Levites, widows and orphans?

Firstly, I have given that example simply to discount your claim that there was no 'mandated' giving of 10% in the bible. If we have agreement on that, then we can move on.

Since that is not the sole example of giving of 10% or tithe in the bible, I am not compelled to follow the rigours stated in Deuteronomy. Again, if I were to follow the instruction explicitly, I'd have to do it every three years as well so you see where I am coming from.

Jacob made a vow to give 10% of his blessing to God, Abraham was blessed by Melchizedek and gave 10% of his spoils. Those to me are worthy examples to use as guidelines on giving.

debosky:

Kindly tell me the written law that made Abraham and Jacob DECIDE to tithe.

I am always amused when people try to limit any references to the tithe to the period of the law.  

Secondly you are wrong on another count - Scribes/Teachers of the law didn't tithe?  

Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Again, exercise caution when trying to make definitive statements.

No one said giving began or ended at 10% - are there instances of giving in the OT at 10%? YES - by the fathers of the faith, and it was recognised as acceptable to God, documented in Hebrews. If it was acceptable then, I can choose to do so, just like Jacob did. What I choose to give 10% from is my decision - Jacob made a vow to give 10%, so no one can tell me not to give 10%, or aspire to give 10% and above, or any other percentage based on their own hang ups.  What I choose to use as a giving guideline cannot be decided by you or anyone else.

This your post is baffling on many counts!!!

I have dealt with Abraham's "tithe" thoroughly recently on another thread --- so I wonder how you accuse me with your line of being amused about limiting references on tithing to the law!

Also, I am perplexed with your line about teachers/scribes not tithing ---- since I made no reference to such!

The last part of the post and your subsequent post have already been dealt with when I said:

Enigma:

. . . Yep, a person can choose to make his own giving 10% BUT you can't go teaching/preaching this to other people. Again, the apostle Paul whose writing on giving is often quoted did not do it; even Jesus Christ Himself did not do it! And it is not as if neither said anything about giving; they both said a LOT about giving but never with reference to 10% and NEVER by recommending to anyone to cross-reference their giving to "tithes"! . . .

I cannot challenge your right to "tithe" or give 10% into "church" --- but I will challenge you or anyone who misapplies scriptures to teach other people to do so. What Jesus and apostle Paul taught is that each person should decide for himself; they did not suggest any percentage whatsoever and remember that both Jesus and Paul knew about OT tithing (including your Abraham and Jacob) ---- yet at no time did either Jesus or Paul suggest it should be used as an example or "principle"!

The scribes and pharisees, as teachers of the law, did not tithe on any income they received as a scribe or pharisee.  IF they also farmed, they would have tithed on crops and animals.

The scribes and pharisees apparently tithed on their herb gardens, taking the law to the extreme.  This would not have been wrong since it was from the increase of the seed.  But they did NOT tithe from their profession as teachers of the law.

There was no law given in The Word that required Abraham to tithe.  However, Biblical historians agree that it was CUSTOM during the days of Abraham to give a tenth of the war spoils.

Doesn't really matter.  There is NO example where Abraham tithed on his income, and only ONE example of giving a tenth of war spoils.  When the mosaic law included a "tax" or war spoils to be given to the Levites, it was no where near a tenth.

IF you follow Abraham's example as given in The Word, you will give a tenth of war spoils to a King and keep nothing for yourself.

IF you follow Jacob's example as given in The Word, you will make a vow to God, telling God what He must do first, and then you will give a tenth of all He gives to you, and then NOT follow through with your promise since we have no information to show that Jacob ever, in fact, gave a tenth.

IF you follow the example of Jesus given in The Word, you won't tithe as there is NO example in The Word showing Jesus tithing.

Chai, what's with this tithephobics and recycling.
BTW, how would Jesus fulfil the law without giving tithes? How would Paul be blameless in the law without giving tithes? This people sef. So anything not penned down in scripture was definitely not done. Where is wisdom which is profitable to direct? So on your line, we can assume Jesus never had his bath, or excrete. It'll be absurd for a Jew not to tithe. Malachi just went on to say that the WHOLE nation had robbed by not bringing tithes, but your half-truth poisoned half-baked minds would not process that. All you can see is law, law. One wonders what the 1st century christians read/or considered scripture. Any one who cuts out of God's Word would have his/her part cut out of God's city. You've been warned.