prettyeyes,

I said the tithe is every tenth animal from herds and flocks that passes under the rod.
Leviticus 27:32 (KJV) - And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Numbers 18:16 has NOTHING to do with the tithe.

Leviticus 27:30-34 says that the crops could be redeemed but NOT the animals.  The tithe was still the crops, but a person could buy them back (redeem) them.

The tithe was paid to THE LEVITES, not the priests. The Levites were the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc. - the servants of the priests. The Levites were then commanded to give a tenth of that tithe to the priests.

The priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis. NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites. Each course only ministered in the Temple one week out of twenty four (1 in 24), and, depending on how many families were in each course, each family only ministered in the Temple two or three days during its courses’ week of ministry.

The Levites regularly lived in their cities and had their own farms.  Numbers 35:1-3 (KJV)
1And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
2Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of
their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
3And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their
cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.

See also Joshua 21:1-8.  The Levites did NOT own the land, but it was given to them to live on and farm on, rent free.

Numbers 18:27 proves that neither wages nor income could be tithed on for The Lord’s Tithe.  Without this interpretation, Numbers 18:27 has no meaning and is only taking up space.

They had money, even wages, in Genesis.  They had a market system to buy and sell the crops and animals.  But the tithe was NOT on the money or the income.  Wage earners did NOT tithe.  Income from the barter exchange of crops and/or animals was NOT tithed on.  There is NO example of Jesus tithing, or Paul, or Peter, or the farm workers, or the craftsmen, etc. etc. etc.  INCOME WAS NOT TITHABLE.

Nuclearboy - Using several scripture is not the deal but understanding the one u have read is the important thing. R u a Christain? if u are then u most understand the role and importance of a PASTOR in ur life as a CHRISTIAN. Eph 4:11- 12 tells u the role of a pastor in ur life. Now, if a Pator is a liar God will not give us such becos of His love for us. " , Pastors for the perfection of the saints for THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST".
God was not talking to the priest in Malachi 3, He was talking to those who r robbing him by not paying their tithes. Now, God will not call a man a thief if the person was not owing him and refusing to pay the tithe. Again God wouldt have used the word PAY if it is a freewill offering. there are different types of giving in the bible and when God was talking about this offerings in the bible He NEVER used the word PAY He used the word GIVE. Search the scriptures

When last did you read your Bible?

You're either in denial or a stooge-name registered to give the impression there's support for robbery. I'm not impressed.

And the following is nonsense. demonic doctrine

prettyeyes:

Nuclearboy - Using several scripture is not the deal but understanding the one u have read is the important thing. R u a Christain? if u are then u most understand the role and importance of a PASTOR in your life as a CHRISTIAN. Eph 4:11- 12 tells u the role of a pastor in your life. Now, if a Pator is a liar God will not give us such becos of His love for us. " , Pastors for the perfection of the saints for THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST".
God was not talking to the priest in Malachi 3, He was talking to those who r robbing him by not paying their tithes. Now, God will not call a man a thief if the person was not owing him and refusing to pay the tithe. Again God wouldt have used the word PAY if it is a freewill offering. there are different types of giving in the bible and when God was talking about this offerings in the bible He NEVER used the word PAY He used the word GIVE. Search the scriptures

"The tithe was paid to THE LEVITES, not the priests. The Levites were the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc. - the servants of the priests. The Levites were then commanded to give a tenth of that tithe to the priests." of course yes this is becos the Levites According to Deuteronomy the Levites were priests who offered sacrifices  and passed on the teachings of the law (Deut. 17: 18; 33: 10). They are scattered round the towns, but in view of the centralization of worship in Jerusalem Levites were invited to join the Zadokite priests descended from Aaron  through Zadok, priest to David  (2 Sam. 15: 24), but always in a subordinate role. They were suspected of dabbling in rural Canaanite rites (Ezek. 44: 10–14) and became Temple vergers, musicians, and slaughterers. This was the situation after the Exile and the P  tradition in the Pentateuch  assigns the distinction even to the time of Moses (Num. 18: 2–6). Levites retained their office, supported by tithes, as long as the Temple lasted (until 70 CE). The NT mentions them as accompanying priests to see John the Baptist the Baptist (John 1: 19), as a character in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10: 32), and Paul's companion Barnabas is said to be a Levite from Cyprus (Acts 4: 36).

If Numbers 18:16 has nothing to do with tithe then what was God talking about. Before u answer that u should read verse 15.

Abraham was the very first person recorded in the bible to pay his tithe to Melchizedeke and that was recorded in Genesis {14:18} And Melchizedek king
of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the
priest of the most high God. {14:19} And he blessed him,
and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God,
possessor of heaven and earth: {14:20} And blessed be the
most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy
hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Are you a Christian or a Jew?

We're talking of tithes and here you start quoting the law as it relates to redeeming firstborns. Do you know we are under the New Testament at all and that ALL are members of a Holy Priesthood, a Peculiar People? You are still redeeming children after birth? Where do you do your burnt offerings please cos I'd like to see that too.

I wonder if it would be amiss to ask if you smoke and what you currently are using?

prettyeyes,

You seem to be confused between firstfruits, firstlings, and the tithe.  The tithe was NEVER the first.

EVERY TENTH ANIMAL.

The firstfruits went to the Temple for the priests while the tithe went to the Levites to go into their cities.  The priests got the firstfruits.  The Levites got the tithe.  THEN the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  See Nehemiah 10:37-38.

The firstlings have NOTHING to do with the tithe.  Tenth is not mentioned.  You are aware that the word tithe means a tenth??

prettyeyes - Abraham did not PAY his tithe. He GAVE a tenth, not paid a tenth. Abraham GAVE a tenth of war spoils that Abraham, himself, said didn't belong to him.

If you want to follow Abraham's example, tithe ONE time, only on spoils of war that don't belong to you, and keep none of it for yourself.

Abraham did NOT pay a tithe to God.

Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income.

Abraham did NOTHING of what the church teaches about tithing.

@prettyeyes
You are a liar, there is not one single verse in the bible that the word "PAY" was used in relation to tithes, the words used were give/gave/bring. Biblical tithes was not money so it was never paid. You don't have to resort to lies to justfy your unscriptural manmade doctrines.

@garyarnorld
Galatians 5:4 which spoke of falling from grace if one keeps the law was addressed to the Galatians who were gentiles and not Jews. So you were very right in that regard, don't allow Viaro to confuse you.

You haven't given up on any of them, though they fight you. Honestly, your dedication is impressive and humbling.

@oladeegbu
Yes dear. Mmmm-pwah!

Mad_Max:

@oladeegbu
Yes dear. Mmmm-pwah!

Ha! Nice. I also got that one this morning (the "mmm-pwah" from someone dear to me-heart! Nice.^{Romans 16:16}

Folks, there should not be unnecessary quarrels with one another on this subject. If we endeavour to look at issues, very cogent points would be made that are beneficial to all stakeholders.

Here's an example of such unnecessary comments:

KunleOshob:

@prettyeyes
You are a liar, there is not one single verse in the bible that the word "PAY" was used in relation to tithes, the words used were give/gave/bring.

The Bible uses all such words - give/gave/bring and "PAY" (besides others) - in relation to tithes. Depending on the translation or version you consult, the following verses should be sufficient to show where they occur:

[list][li]Heb. 7:9, KJV - "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham."[/li][/list]

[list][li]Matt. 23:23, KJV - ". . .for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,. . ."[/li][/list]

[list][li]Gen. 14:20, KJV - ". . . And he gave him tithes of all."[/li][/list]

[list][li]Mal. 3:10, KJV - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house. . ."[/li][/list]

This is not to disparage you Kunleoshob, but we know that there are several verses that use the word "PAY" (or "paid" in relation to tithes - so there's no need to have deemed prettyeyes a liar on that one.

Gary and co
Giving of tithes is not parallel to ignoring Jesus' sacrifice. And I tithe from the heart so you guys should beat yourself again. God wants His people to bring the tithe, bring it. And that's just the start, because it ALL belongs to Him, not just a tenth. You struggle to part with 10% and boast of being able to give more, you're dishonest and lack integrity.

Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar. Many repent because of judgement, have they done wrong, or they're not true believers? The end of a thing is better than the beginning mr.
Nuclearboy
Who was God talking to in Malachi 3? He was talking to His children and I'm one of them.
What nonsense talk, I'm sure you don't ask such questions when reading passages like Deuteronomy 28v1-13 or Psalm 23 or 91.

But here is another thing that I should comment on -

KunleOshob:

@garyarnorld
Galatians 5:4 which spoke of falling from grace if one keeps the law was addressed to the Galatians who were gentiles and not Jews. So you were very right in that regard, don't allow Viaro to confuse you.

I was glad to read Gary's comment when I pointed out what he was missing in misconstruing the Law for what it does not argue. Indeed, because I was not inclined to the petty misinformation in this thread, I invited him to a new thread if he would like me to expatiate on any subject.

When I said this initially -

viaro:

Nope. Anyone who tithes under "obligation" has not fallen from grace nor put themselves under the Law, nor would they be judged by the Law. The Law only speaks to those who are under it, not to those who were never given that Law by ratification. If therefore they are acting out of the principle inherent in the Law, they can do so - but they should do so with understanding and not bring themselves under a legalistic spirit of "obligation".

. . . it is clear from God's Word that the Law only speaks to those who are under it, and not to those who were never given that Law by ratification. Romans 3:19 quite clearly establishes this point ("we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law"; but we also know that the Gentiles were never given the Law by ratification at any time! If Gary is willing, we could go over to a new thread and discuss this most crucial point, because when people argue vacuously about the Law, they tend to do so without a clue about what it entails.

However, Galatians 5:4 is in view of JUSTIFICATION - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." If one keeps the Law because they are seeking to be JUSTIFIED by that Law, then they are not looking to grace. But on what basis then is the said "obligation" to do the Law? It is on the basis of CIRCUMCISION -

[list]"I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law" - Galatians 5:3, ESV[/list]

In other words, the "obligation" to the Law is on the basis of CIRCUMCISION. In effect, Paul argues this point from verse 2 - "Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you" . . . that is the basis for the statement about "falling from grace".

In all this, for anyone to be "obligated" to do the whole Law, such a person MUST first accept circumcision. If that is not the case, there is no basis for using TITHES to argue that someone has fallen from grace - that is the most hollow and illiterate argument anyone can make from Galatians! Tithes were never given in the Bible as a matter for justification. NEVER! One who gave tithes was not more justified than one who did not give tithes at anytime. So using tithes as an argument foisted upon Galatians is quite uncalled for!

However, are we as Christians aware that we can FULFILL THE LAW without being under any "obligation" to the legalism of the Law? Oh yes, we can! Let me show you:

[list][li]Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law - Romans 13:8, KJV[/li][/list]

[list][li]Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law - Romans 13:10, KJV[/li][/list]

[list][li]For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" - Galatians 5:4[/li][/list]

You really don't have to be a Jew under the Judaic covenant in order to fulfill what the Lord Jesus referred to as 'the weightier matters of THE LAW' - judgment, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23). Indeed, the apostle Paul recognized that the Gentiles who did not have the Mosaic Law could yet have been fulfilling the Law -

[list]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another - Romans 2:14-15[/list]

Yes, we can find in many aspects of our Christian lives that we are actually working out the principles of the Law in our lives without being under any "obligation" to the Law. First, for anyone to be brought under the Law, they must needs be circumcised - at the very least, they ought to "accept circumcision". But is TITHING based on circumcision? Does tithing JUSTIFY anybody? Why do people try to read Galatians with their eyes closed in order to argue their own personal misgivings into that epistle?

I reiterate: "The Law only speaks to those who are under it, not to those who were never given that Law by ratification" - Romans 3:19 makes this point clear. Before any argument of "obligation" to the Law and falling from grace, the first question that must be asked is whether such a person has "accepted circumcision" in order to be JUSTIFIED by the Law. If the tither is not seeking to be justified by the Law, please don't try to use Galatians to make cheap scores against tithes! We are also clear that Christians can fulfill the Law without being under the covenant of Judaism.

__________________

@Gary, the above is just one reason why I invited you to on a proposed new thread on issues like this - just for us to calmly discuss issues that are many times confused around the Law. I remember you made a statement like this:

garyarnold:

Those who put themselves under the law WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW - ALL 600+ OF THEM!  Now, how many of you want to be judged by the law?

. . . and it was on such ideas from you that I remarked that the Christian who tithes does not come under any "obligation" of the Law nor would be judged by the Law, whether 600+ of them or less. If you take time to go through all the commonly held 613 Mitzvot/Commandments (or the 'Taryag Mitzvot'), you soon find that such an argument is baseless. But I'm not pushing for the new thread, just wanted to be clear on what KunleOshob didn't take time to consider on Galatians.

Thanks for the above viaro. May God enrich and increase you. My only fear is that the types of kunle will not comment on the above, but will at some other time or some other thread make the same assertions. I do hope that that changes

^^I follow your concerns, Image123. More blessings all the way to you.

@Viaro:

M O T I V E !  Do you, bro, sincerely believe the motive behind giving 10% WILLINGLY is the same as giving under compulsion BECAUSE someone ( a pastor) you WISH TO consider "more knowledgable" says its an "obligation"?

I notice you have refrained from saying the tithe is lawful AND binding on christians - what you say is that if an individual decision is made to give it, it is fine! Does that contradict the position you see us in? For I personally have no issues giving more than a tenth (whether anyone believes or not) BUT NOT as an obligation based on an "imaginary" Christian covenant with God that sees me paying expected dues and thus expecting "returns" in a buy/sell arrangement!

Please address the above directly. Image123 is point-blank advocating "compulsion". Same with Tonye-T and Joagbaje - They say it is obligatory. Thats the crux, not that garyarnold says "it puts you under the law". garyarnold's statement (which he has anyway retracted) is REACTIONARY. Lets deal with the issue at hand that he reacts to. Are "Tithes" as presented by these guys (obligatory, binding, bearing a curse) the position of the Bible?

Jesus Christ died so we are not under a curse. Is it tithes, bro, in your estimation, that return us under that curse? No ambiguity, just openess please. ARE THEY RIGHT THAT TITHES are OBLIGATORY, BINDING and CARRYING A CURSE FOR CHRISTIANS?  

@nuclearboy,

Just what is your argument? Do you support Christians giving tithes or you are TOTALLY against tithes in any manner or form?

If we don't have any problem with tithes - then let's teach it instead of criminalizing those who tithe! I'm sick to the back teeth with very childish rants on tithes and tithing. Big deal - people give 10% of their income, and many others are complaining on petty excuses at definitions of whether it is the Lord's tithes or whether theologically the definition of tithes is a tenth or whether it is to "PAY" or receive or take or give or whatnots!

People have preached other types of giving on very faulty foundation - I made this point so clear before. I know many people and ministries which speak about "freewill offering" and yet make it a belaboured aspect of the Christian life. What then? Should I now start reacting against "freewill offerings" because these folks make such a mess of the subject? No. Rather, I would like to encourage such a service among Christians on a foundation of grace in what we find in Scripture.

Same with tithes and tithing - just because some are scamming the Body of Christ through tithes does not mean I should start appealing to very beggarly arguments to denounce tithes! Big deal - the term "freewill" does not even appear a single time in the New Testament! Yet, anti-tithers prefer to argue from now till kingdom come in favour of what they don't find in the NT (nevermind that "freewill" in the OT is many times associated with ANIMAL SACRIFICES)!

nuclearboy:

@Viaro:

M O T I V E !  Do you, bro, sincerely believe the motive behind giving 10% WILLINGLY is the same as giving under compulsion BECAUSE someone ( a pastor) you WISH TO consider "more knowledgable" says its an "obligation"?

I have pointed out so many times in other threads that MOTIVE is far more important in giving than any calculated amount we bring in our hands. I also made clear that those who argue around "new covenant giving" are being very dubious and mischievous! Go through the list of what they say constitute "NT giving" - you will find that they are NOT NEW but are the basis of what we find in OT giving!

If your worry is about "obligation", I have also pointed out in another thread that such is not and should not be the case. Infact, I was so upset at the way the G.O. of RCCG sets forth his teaching on tithes that I used very unpalatable terms to describe him! The point was that I made clear that any type of giving (not just tithes) should not be based on any "obligation". The talk here in this thread on my mentioning "obligation" has to do rather with the miscalculated and very misplaced argument which some have dubiously foisted upon Galatians to condemn those who tithe! Tithes are not the basis for justifying or condemning any believer - NT or OT - so the many arguments people circle around Galatians to condemn tithe is nothing but illiterate.

nuclearboy:

I notice you have refrained from saying the tithe is lawful AND binding on christians - what you say is that if an individual decision is made to give it, it is fine! Does that contradict the position you see us in?

I dodn't remember making tithes at any time to be BINDING on any Christian. Please quote me and I will apologise and own the mishap. When you can quote me directly where I asserted that tithes are binding on Christians, then I will offer further comments on the above quote from you.

nuclearboy:

For I personally have no issues giving more than a tenth (whether anyone believes or not) BUT NOT as an obligation based on an "imaginary" Christian covenant with God that sees me paying expected dues and thus expecting "returns" in a buy/sell arrangement!

Sorry bro - I don't see tithes that way nor have I discussed it along such lines.

nuclearboy:

Please address the above directly. Image123 is point-blank advocating "compulsion". Same with Tonye-T and Joagbaje - They say it is obligatory. Thats the crux, not that garyarnold says "it puts you under the law". garyarnold's statement (which he has anyway retracted) is REACTIONARY. Lets deal with the issue at hand that he reacts to. Are "Tithes" as presented by these guys (obligatory, binding, bearing a curse) the position of the Bible?

I think my reply to KunleOshob's comment should be clear to bear across what I meant by the use of "obligation" in relation to the Law. I'm sure that a few of those you mention would remember that viaro is not an articulator of compulsory giving or tithing - but that is not reason enough for me to start condemning and arguing all day against tithes with petty and frivolous comments.

nuclearboy:

Jesus Christ died so we are not under a curse. Is it tithes, bro, in your estimation, that return us under that curse? No ambiguity, just openess please. ARE THEY RIGHT THAT TITHES are OBLIGATORY, BINDING and CARRYING A CURSE FOR CHRISTIANS? 

When was TITHE in the Bible given as a matter of JUSTIFICATION? Please let me know.

The confusion here is not hard to see: those who want to discuss tithes as if it is salvific (that is, pertaining to JUSTIFICATION and SALVATION) are themselves losing it superbly! It is not tithes that will save or condemn you, because tithes are not given in the Bible to justify anyone. That is why I'm not one of those arguing that tithes "returns" or "delivers" from the curse of the Law - for tithes were never made a matter of anybody's salvation.

Nuclearboy
I'll rather choose necessary not compulsion. I don't find the word 'compulsory' in my Bible.

I cannot believe I'm reading the above from VIARO! Its like "I wish to deliberately misunderstand"

I say "these people are saying its obligatory" (NOW, IMAGE SAYS IT IS NECCESSARY). You go off on another tangent. I say "GIVE, GIVE and GIVE but do not say it is obligatory FOR Christians". You of all people, Viaro, say I'm denouncing "giving". The people you support are using YOU as a prop BECAUSE YOU ARE BELIEVABLE. This is simple - is your position their own? NO! So I pointed out "motive" - is their motive right, Viaro, when they say it is a Christian obligation, not to give, but to compulsorily tithe. AND then they include a curse for those who do not ACCORDING TO THEIR directions.

You are preaching to the choir - ME! I advocate what you are saying too. If you disagree with ANY of the following (which is what I say), please let me know

[1] Tithes (a tenth of income) are not an obligation or compulsory or binding BUT IT IS GOOD TO GIVE.
[2] The way they are preached today is unfair as it armtwists listeners to pay
[3] Giving is good and to be praised but not under compulsion

I am NOT arguing against you but am saying some here are using your knowledge to twist issues and using you as a prop.

Let those who are comfortable paying tithe continue to do so, no problem at all as long as they know it's not compulsory for the Christian. What is COMPULSORY is the Christian is LOVE for one another and GIVING as his/her HEART plus the Holy Spirit LEADS.

To use Malachi to steal from the flock is worse than armed robbery, Come to think of it, Nigerian Politicians fit the mold of Abram's tithe to Melchizedek since most (if not all of them) rape and pillage the country, Little wonder they get front row seats in most of their "Churches"

[size=18pt]IS IT YOUR MONEY PEOPLE ARE GIVING AS TITHES? IF PEOPLE CHOOSE TO GIVE THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY TO THE CHURCH ITS THEIR PREROGATIVE, WHY NOT MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS NOW![/size]

^^^ Everything we do either gives Christ a good name or a bad name. The Apostle Paul considered that and said ALL THINGS were lawful to him but not all expedient. For Christianity to be known as a scam is not a good reflection on the name of Christ.

That may not matter to you, friend but it may likely affect the decision of one/some/many men for Christ. Because of Naira?

^^^^ I was not refering to thieves and looters

Kenny_G:

[size=18pt]IS IT YOUR MONEY PEOPLE ARE GIVING AS TITHES? IF PEOPLE CHOOSE TO GIVE THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY TO THE CHURCH ITS THEIR PREROGATIVE, WHY NOT MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS NOW![/size]

A gentleman indeed! How cute of you

I know it's midday in the UK, eat some lunch and stop shouting at the wrong people dude!

I can’t remember anybody telling you to stop giving. If you need clarification on my posts, I will be happy to provide one.

Image123:

Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar.

This is not Christian giving for sure. It’s business. You quote Luke 6v38 but due to your lust for material gain, you fail to understand the message. Please read v32 to v35 as well, and stop quoting what you don’t understand.

Image123:

Many repent because of judgement, have they done wrong, or they're not true believers?

It would be nice if you can provide answer to this question. After repenting because of judgement, did these people continue to practice Christianity because of the judgement?

You need to take a stand my friend, are you a Christian because of fear of punishment or because it is the right way to go? This will influence/shape how you live your Christian life and ultimately where you end up.

From the tone of your post I can see you live a life of fear, fear of the devourer, fear of losing your material achievements, fear you might not succeed in your endeavors. You are very much afraid my friend and it has affected your ability to reason. If it’s true you tithe out of fear, then you are forever going to live with that fear. That’s because you must continue to tithe to keep your fears from becoming reality.

Your post also suggests you see giving as a business venture (and by extension Christianity) and I can only wish you the best. Pray you are successful.

nuclearboy:

I cannot believe I'm reading the above from VIARO! Its like "I wish to deliberately misunderstand"

I say "these people are saying its obligatory" (NOW, IMAGE SAYS IT IS NECCESSARY). You go off on another tangent. I say "GIVE, GIVE and GIVE but do not say it is obligatory FOR Christians". You of all people, Viaro, say I'm denouncing "giving". The people you support are using YOU as a prop BECAUSE YOU ARE BELIEVABLE. This is simple - is your position their own? NO! So I pointed out "motive" - is their motive right, Viaro, when they say it is a Christian obligation, not to give, but to compulsorily tithe. AND then they include a curse for those who do not ACCORDING TO THEIR directions.

Hehe. . .commander, I was not trying to misunderstand. My points are clear and this is not the first time nor first thread that I've made my position clear. If you missed the previous posts, I can understand why you were assuming a misconception into the recent ones you read.

I don't know how many times I would have to say that giving is not a compulsory aspect of the Christian life and ministry. The problem here perhaps might be when we deliberately refuse to give at all - whatever the excuses might be. Since that is not the issue at stake, there's nothing new here that should warrant many posts from me. The only point here is that some might've misconstrued unnecessary arguments into the Law and thought that Galatians buttresses such arguments. I have tried to show that is not the case, so no need for anyone tying "obligation" and falling from grace upon the tither.

Motive is not a new thing to us - and I've cited so many OT and a few NT verses in other posts to show this same thing. I do not think it is such a neologism that should make you assume I was ignoring 'motive'. Not one bit. However, it does not appear that you understood my reply to KunleOshob's misunderstanding of what I was saying concerning "ohbligation" and falling from grace - you don't seem to have said anything directly on that before talking about motive.

nuclearboy:

You are preaching to the choir - ME! I advocate what you are saying too. If you disagree with ANY of the following (which is what I say), please let me know

[1] Tithes (a tenth of income) are not an obligation or compulsory or binding BUT IT IS GOOD TO GIVE.
[2] The way they are preached today is unfair as it armtwists listeners to pay
[3] Giving is good and to be praised but not under compulsion

I am NOT arguing against you but am saying some here are using your knowledge to twist issues and using you as a prop.

I am not aware of anyone using my comments as a prop - they otherwise would have made plain that they are at odds with what viaro has tried to state. One thing I am trying to make clear to anti-tithers is this: TITHING is NOT the problem, and we should be careful about the error of criminalizing every tither or tithe-preacher just because of perceived aversions to that word. Not everyone who preaches tithes and tithing falls under the accusations that anti-tithers often make against tithers.

If therefore we don't have any problem with tithing at all - then by all means PREACH IT! Let's stop pussyfooting about in pretentious language that 'we don't have a problem with tithes' or with 10%, while yet arguing hard against it. Go through this thread alone and wonder why so many are up in arms against 'tithes' with unnecessary arguments on that word alone!

That is not to say that we should ignore the reality of abuses in many places. However, deal with the PROBLEM and not using all sorts of excuses to condemn tithes and then criminalise everyone who tithes! Many of us Christians who argue against tithes seem not to understand that the NT we use for preaching other forms of NT giving have absolutely NOTHING to do with any type of giving! Yet, we don't stop for a moment to think about this!

Bottomline:

(a)   tithe if you are inclined to tithe

(b)   give in some other way if you prefer to NOT tithe

(c)   neither (a) nor (b) is compulsory - that is, it is not compulsory to tithe; nor is it compulsory to NOT tithe

(d)   tithing will not add anything to your salvation; nor will tithing (or NOT tithing) condemn you to hell

(e)   whatever we do (whether it be tithing, freewill offering, or contributions of sorts), do all in love as much as we are able; tithing or giving in some other way is not "forced" upon God's people

(f)   whether you tithe or choose to NOT tithe, the feeling of guilt shows that something is wrong - is it your tithing or giving that is wrong, or the way you are hearing it being preached? If someone is using tithe or anti-tithing to foist guilt upon you, that does not mean that God condemned tithes: maybe you need to seek a healthy understanding that will encourage and refresh you in tithing or giving as you are led at heart to do so.

Indeed, viaro may be wrong - that is one thing I should not fail to acknowledge. However, let the reader carefully seek out God's will and follow what you understand from God's revelation to him/her on this subject.

God bless me - and you!

In my view the teaching of "tithing", especially as it is done overwhelmingly contemporarily, must not only be challenged, it must be condemned.

Even preaching "tithing" as a "voluntary" act is only tolerable and not really acceptable, strictly speaking. Anyone who wants to teach/preach Christian truth must teach/preach GIVING ----- giving cheerfully as the Christian decides in his own mind ---- in whatever percentage s/he can  afford. What is more this giving is not supposed to be made into a "church" (or the deceitful "storehouse" alone ----- but in particular to help the poor and needy; yes, that malam in your street, that fellow who needs school fees, who needs to pay hospital bills, who needs food for himself and family. This is what Jesus and the apostles taught! Neither Jesus nor any of the apostles taught "tithing" for Christians.

I'm afraid we have to say it: contemporary "tithes" teaching is a SCAM for the most part!

And you know why the scam works so successfully?

Among others:

People's fear: "if I do no tithe, the devourer will come at me"!

People's greed: "when I 'pay' my tithes, I will see manifold blessings"

It is all lies --- the "tithe-payers" are being played for mugs because of their own folly. Those who teach/preach the so-called "voluntary" "tithing" are aiding and abetting the scam artists.

Viaro:

you've said ALL I asked for. The issue should not be allowed to foist "guilt" on anyone OR be forced on anyone.

That is the problem and you could read any of Image123's posts to see the subtle (and not so subtle) arm-twisting techniques I speak of

@Zikky,

How are you?

I agree with Image123 on Luke 6:38. He was spot on, although we sometimes feel that just because some people have turned the Christian ministry to a money-spinning venture, we altogether fail to understand that such abuses do not define the value of God's Word to us.

So let me comment a bit:

Zikkyy:

Image123 link=topic=459705.msg6217579#msg6217579 date=1276591488:

Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar.

This is not Christian giving for sure. It’s business. You quote Luke 6v38 but due to your lust for material gain, you fail to understand the message. Please read v32 to v35 as well, and stop quoting what you don’t understand.

Dear sir, the verses you recommended also show that those who give should do so in expectation of a REWARD. Yes sir, that is CHRISTIAN giving, for sure. Here is what verse 35 says:

Luke 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Your "lending" may be in view of hoping for nothing again; but immediately after that statement is the fact that the giver surely has a REWARD! In fact, it says that your reward shall be great! It has nothing to do with the accusation that someone is greedy for material gain; rather, that verse there says that there is a "reward" for giving.

Besides Luke 6:35, what about verse 38 that Image123 mentions?

³⁵Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Does the highlighted above remind us any bit about 2 Corinthians 9:6?? ["But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."] If the 'sowing' here is nothing about expecting some reward of sorts at any level, what then is the talk of REAPING?

nuclearboy:

Viaro:

you've said ALL I asked for. The issue should not be allowed to foist "guilt" on anyone OR be forced on anyone.

Thank you, nuclearboy. I believe many people who are against tithing just argue out of ignorance - just as much as many who argue in some ways to force tithing on people. However, my entry to this thread is not to condemn anyone, but seeking to make sense from all of the talk here.

Rather than being reactionary, it would be quite helpful to look into God's Word and follow simple principles there that we find. The hardest thing for some to do is see that the NT does not argue for literalism in many of the OT verses it cites for Christians - instead, we see PRINCIPLES in many places.

One of the fav OT verses cited in the NT on Christian giving is Deuteronomy 25:4 - "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." Now anyone who turns to Deuteronomy 25 may argue till kingdom come that the chapter does not teach anything about "giving". No worries - but the apostle Paul cited that OT verse TWICE in the NT and uses it to speak about financial support or giving in the NT for Christians!! Here they are -

[list]1 Corinthians 9:9 - "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?"[/list]

[list]1 Timothy 5:18 - "For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."[/list]

For all those who want to argue hard and long in a legalistic manner about the definition of "tithes" from the Law, please tell me: what has Deuteronomy 25:4 on "OX" got to do with Christian giving that it should appear TWICE in the epistles we all read and embrace?!? Is that OT verse not from the LAW OF MOSES?!? Or do we not hear that it was written for OUR sakes? Read it here:

[list]1 Corinthians 9:9b-10 >> "Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope."[/list]

Yes, that was written for OUR (Christian) sake! But tell me: what has a verse on "OX" got anything to do with Christian giving? NOTHING. Yet, it is used in the NT directly from the OT to talk about giving in support of Christian ministers and leaders in the Church.

The point here is that we often fail to see that the NT speaks more in PRINCIPLE when citing the OT for the Christian. There are so many other examples where we find this. But the hardest thing for anyone to do is see this PRINCIPLE and yet argue fastidously about the "definition" of tithe, that the Law says this and it must be this and that and the other and NONE OTHER! If that is how we want to keep arguing from now till heaven, then let such folks understand one thing: YOUR CHRISTIAN COVENANT IS BASED DIRECTLY ON WHAT IS SPOKEN TO THE JEW!! Most of the verses quoted for the new covenant in the NT are taken directly from the OT that addresses the Jews under Judaism - but in a sort of strange and inspired way, they are applied to the Christian! Yet, the "Christian" who argues in a legalistic manner has never sat down to think more carefully that if it was not for the sake of PRINCIPLES, there would infact be absolutely NO new covenant!


But that is another thread on its own. For now, the argument against tithes are just hopeless. I'd only say to such folks arguing against tithes:Tithes are not the problem of the anti-tither - if you have a problem with 10%, you have a problem with anything beyond 10%.  Knock yourself out with more excuses.

You point blank judge that "anyone who has a problem with 10% will have with more than 10%" AFTER reading us say its not the amount but the principle of scamming that we worry about.

Okay Viaro, we're tight-fisted and its because we do not want the Gospel spread that we say "give willingly but not under compulsion". Of course, its also because we want pastors to wear patched-thread clothing and walk from Lagos to Kaduna for sunday service that Zikky said "I can’t remember anybody telling you to stop giving".

But you would have the last word. Please have it.

Only pro-tithers want God's Work done We on our part, are God-haters (wikid pesins)

nuclearboy:

You point blank judge that "anyone who has a problem with 10% will have with more than 10%" AFTER reading us say its not the amount but the principle of scamming that we worry about.

Commander, read again what thy servant has said:

viaro:

I'd only say to such folks arguing against tithes:Tithes are not the problem of the anti-tither - if you have a problem with 10%, you have a problem with anything beyond 10%. Knock yourself out with more excuses.

I said "such folks", and that was not saying it must include you nuclearboy. You and I don't have a problem with 10% - the difference is that I proclaim it loud and clear instead of treating it as an after-thought or an excuse we should leave by the way-side! When I read folks who are hell-bent on arguments against tithes and 10% without actually dealing with the problem, I was referring to them - not you directly. I apologise if that came across as if I were putting you on spot - I regret it.

nuclearboy:

Only pro-tithers want God's Work done We on our part, are God-haters (wikid pesins)

Oh dear me! These 'pro-tithers'. . . please sit up: when my commander speaks like this, I'm in trouble!

Anyways, your boy viaro is neither a pro- or amateur- tither. I personally don't like the labels on anyone, so I prefer to respect whatever anyone feels persuaded to think on the subject. What I've often tried to maintain is that there is no argument (as far as I've seen) that is so water-tight as to become the LAW for Christians: no anti-tithing or pro-tithing argument should become LAW for the Body of Christ. Therefore, let's do from our hearts as we feel led of God to do - whether tithe or choose to NOT tithe. In all things, and by all means, let's give from a cheerful heart and do so with love.