LordReed:
LMFAO! Apparently your addled brain doesn't understand humour.

Aim for the ball and kick it about, not be kicking or stomping on the foot
Face and deal with the message, not the messenger

LordReed:
Your blatherings are boring so its necessary to enliven the place,
if you don't like it report to your imaginary magic sky daddy.

If it is that easy and cheap to create a universe and human beings, why haven't you, LordReed Mr. Big Stuff who is cleverer than God
or any of your other guys you're in cahoots with, not gone to do or create one?

If you don't like how things are being on schedule run, then you know what to do. Jump ship LordReed

MuttleyLaff:
and you made a right dog's dinner of it

Dont worry, everything will be OK in the end frank317

I dont believe you heard

Did I hit on a raw nerve?
Or you're moonlighting for the Office for National Statistics?

I am not surprised
Let me pray for you. Receive! Receive it!!

He who wakes up early, is bound to yawn all day long

Reiterating, killing Satan from the onset the thing was found in him would not solve the matter because the situational problem will reappear on scene again like it did with Adam and Eve.

The only way God, as Jesus, could have legally died, as part of the solution to the problem,
is by being sentenced to death by the legal authority on earth, and so thereafter killed crucified on a Roman cross

Why are you in a haste?

You thought wrong

Do you know what "deja poo" is?
It is the feeling of having heard and read a crap remark like this before

You laugh. I know and understand why.
As, saying to you, the more you try to look at the answer(s), the less you see and none the wiser you are, is truth that is stranger than fiction

Why did God not kill Satan from the onset. The question was asked by a 13 years old who understand that ur God's action didn't make sense. U said God knew man would fail and put some things in place... Yet a 13 year old is questioning ur Gods action.

Ihedinobi3:

I'm glad that you can be amused. It does appear to come easily to you though.

About the dictionary, these are also from the same link (I'll explain in short order why I think it is necessary to point them out):

"to risk money on the result of an event or a competition, such as a horse race, in the hope of winning more money"

"a guess or opinion"

There are others but for the most part, they are just variations on these three definitions including the one you gave.

Now, given that there are other meanings that might better fit the syntax in your statement, I would like you to confirm to me that you are saying that:

Job suffered because of a certainty that either God or Satan or maybe both had.

That is, you object to Job's having to suffer anything because of a a certainty that God or Satan or both had. Is that correct?

OK you now understand how its a bet right? Good.

Yes Job suffered in the the fairytale story needlessly also his children and servants died because a supposedly all powerful, all knowing god, all good god needed to show off to the evil, rebellious Satan. It is clearly an illogical fairytale but of course you have more elaborate explanations.

I am not sure that I understand the above. Are you denying that the statements I copy-pasted from your comments are lies? Or, are you claiming that they are conjectures and should therefore not be admissible as lies?

How about you bring the meaning of lie and show how those statements are lies since you are the one making the accusations.

Here's the problem. Anyone can call any statement or argument a word salad. While indeed it may be true that such a statement or argument is incomprehensible as a result of some failure or deliberate mischief on the part of the author of that statement or argument, it is also within reason to consider that the protesting opponent either just does not understand a perfectly comprehensible statement or is only falsely claiming not to understand it.

So, it is not necessarily my fault that my argument made no sense to you. I will rephrase that argument here in the hopes that this time it will make sense and in case it is true that I was not as clear as I intended to be at first.

This was what I said the first time:

"Hypocrisy: you accuse me of making up stories to fill plot holes in the Bible but you have no problem spending years going to school to learn about the world around you. Why is it not equally intuitive for you as you demand that the Bible must be for everybody?"

This is my rephrasing:

It is hypocrisy on your part to expect the Bible to be intuitive so that it should take no specialized tutoring to understand it when you have no problems spending years in school learning about the world around you. Why do you not also demand that the world around you should be equally intuitive?"

Because neither my teachers nor books claim to be divine, nor do they want me to worship them or believe them on faith.

The fairytale book was not written by any divine being but yet with no proof, wants me to take on faith the existence of a divine being. No truth requires faith to operate, any truth that demands faith is fake. If an all knowing divine being wants me to understand it then unequivocal truths which require no faith or sophistry would be presented.

I see what you mean. I can accept "father of lies" as a personification and as an anthropomorphism. Why did you speak of a difference between the two? What is the relevance here?

However, there is no reason discernible to me here why Satan is therefore the personification of evil. "Father of..." is a metaphor for "originator of..." or "champion of...". It is never used as an identification with the object that follows. So, Satan may have been the first to believe in a lie and to persuade others to do the same. He may be the champion of lies of all hues and shades. He is all these things. But himself is not a lie. We create our own lies, sometimes without his instigation. We adopt lies that suit our desires sometimes without his input. Every being with a free will possesses the same ability that Satan had and which he put to the wrong use: the ability to decide what to believe and therefore what to be. Therefore, each one is not only perfectly able to but, apart from the elect angels, every single being with a free will has invented and believed lies of their own choosing.

So, while, Satan is most certainly "the evil one" and leader of "the kingdom of darkness", it is not necessarily right to say that he personifies evil any more than the rest of us do except, as I already said, in the sense that he was the first to sin and is the the major external instigator and motivator of all wrongdoing.

So, again, the Bible does not regard Satan as the personification of evil. It treats him as a rebel and the instigator of rebellion in God's Creation but also as a subject to God's Sovereign Rule.

You accept that Father of lies is a personification but still say the bible does not regard Satan as the personification of evil, is this not contradictory? Is it not the bible that says Satan is the father of lies? Why do you need to quibble with the most obvious of details?

I'm not sure what your difficulty with this is. Especially given that my argument is that God has not "executed" Satan all this time so that he can be man's test. So, his very continued existence outside of the Lake of Fire since the Judgment of the first universe has been because God had a job for him to do. That is what I have argued. And why not? Satan is not God's Match, not by a long shot. So he doesn't even qualify to be called God's Enemy. All of his posturing and interfering only serves to further God's Eternal Plan.

Now, more immediate to the question is the fact that when Adam sinned, he perforce handed over significant authority over the planet Earth to Satan. He was God's Steward over the planet until he joined Satan's rebellion. So, where man would have been responsible to account to God for the Earth, it became Satan's responsibility to do so, at least in a sense. As I already said, even the corrupted Earth is still part of God's dominion so whoever exercises authority over it answers to Him still. This is why Satan must answer God's Summons every time it goes out. He does not have the power to refuse it.

LoL again more elaborate stories to explain the already illogical stories. How is it logical that god has an enemy who has subverted a third of his angelic forces and attempted to seize the throne and still god allows him the responsibility of stewardship of earth? This is the same question the 13 yr old asked in another way, how is this god just allowing his archenemy to do what ever he likes. And the illogical Job story goes on to have the archenemy in his presence even though it is said he cannot behold evil. And not only that, is sweet talked into giving permission for his own best servant to be evilly treated. It is just insane and shows a god who is just dull cos at the end of it there is no lesson for Satan nor does Satan stop doing the accuser of the brethren role. Just a stupid story really.

As I already said, a pass implies that Satan actually wants to go to Heaven. He does not. The Awesome, Naked Presence of God is in Heaven. Going there is taking an incredible risk on Satan's part. It is not that God is afraid of sin or evil that He runs from it, rather it is that rebellion against God cannot stand before God. Every time that Satan shows up in Heaven, he must necessarily do so because he is summoned and when he arrives, he cannot ignore his inferiority and subservience to God's Will. His inflated sense of self-importance cannot stand with him when he is in the assembly. This is why he must seek permission for all activities against believers to try to prove his position to the other angels. As far as I know from the Bible, Heaven is not a pleasant place for Satan to be, not with his arrogant self-delusion anyway, so he wouldn't want a pass of any kind to grant him access there. His rebellion was about trying to exclude God from His Creation, after all.

Then, from God's Own Side, Satan would already be in the Lake of Fire if it were not for God's Grace that has provided a use for him. Through his activities, God is demonstrating to both angels and men how loving, patient, kind and wise and powerful He is. For example, you are angry that God would allow man to suffer for 6000 years when He could end it all before it even began. But then, the correct angle is this: God need not tolerate man's insolence for a second, much less 6000 years now, but He has tolerated it for 6000 years and will tolerate it for another thousand before He brings all rebellion to an end. That shows His immense Patience with His Children rather than the ineptitude you prefer to accuse Him of.

Again you are the one conjecturing this summons, the text does not say that. And even if we accept it was a summons the fact that it is a reluctant action does not negate the characterization of it as an everlasting buspass, for Satan to be there it means he has permission to be there, whether by force or will.

Also this your summons narrative does nothing to explain how he is constantly in heaven accusing the brethren. So is it every time he wants to accuse the brethren that god summons him? This is just a mess of illogicality.

Not that I expect you to take my word for it, but it is entirely your choice whether you will believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of Man, Savior and God, or not. I am under no illusions that I can make that choice for you or force you to make it. My bit here is to make sure that the record about the Bible's true position is kept straight. So, it does not agitate me that you continue to present arrogant hifalutin arguments and nonarguments that are all essentially false.

The bible story is illogical and no matter how you try you can't fill the holes. The more you try to explain it the more illogicality is exposed. It was not written by any divine being or under the direction of one so it continues to throw up extremely illogical reasons for the conditions of the universe.

You have not shown in even one place were what I wrote was false or presented falsely so you are the one engaged in falsity and high falutin arguments. It is not surprising since you are defending illogicalities.

MuttleyLaff:
Aim for the ball and kick it about, not be kicking or stomping on the foot
Face and deal with the message, not the messenger

If it is that easy and cheap to create a universe and human beings, why haven't you, LordReed Mr. Big Stuff who is cleverer than God
or any of your other guys you're in cahoots with, not gone to do or create one?

If you don't like how things are being on schedule run, then you know what to do. Jump ship LordReed

LMFAO! I have told you what to do if my humour pains you so much, report to your imaginary magic sky daddy. Your blatherings are boring, run along to sky daddy, now there's a good boy.

MuttleyLaff:
Someone doesnt want to own up they dont know what true and pure religion is, so takes refuge under the pretence of making sarcasm

I'm beginning to question your intelligence.

Slandering God, is what you're good at

That incompetent bitch can suck my balls.

/quote]Did he forcibly lead the innocent into sin?
Is he forcibly causing and bringing about the damnation of billions for eternity?[/quote]
Yes. He did all that by corrupting adam and eve, which had the effect of all their descendants being damned unwillingly. So much for free will.

What made you think He didnt caution satan and told him what he would do?

The fact that this was never mentioned in the bible.

Have you forgotten that Satan has a mind of his own?
Dont you understand that Satan wouldnt be forced to do anything bar exercise his freewill?

So because of free will, satan is alowed to harm billions by proxy through adam and eve, meanwhile the free will of humanity is ignored because... reasons?

What made you think God never or didnt at least talk to satan to prevent the events of the bible?

What makes you think God did? Judging by God's general incompetence, I think he didn't. And by my previous post, God created satan evil, so he made no mistake.

Sin kills, if sin wasnt committed, we wouldnt be here, having this conversation Ruth

God is a lazy mofo, if he wasn't a lazy mofo, we wouldn't be here having this conversation mutt

It is knowledge gaps that leads you into making spurious comments like "punish all of humanity for the sins of three people"
and is why or how I end up having to do lengthy response posts, because I am picking up, after you've made a right botched up of facts.

Lol.

I am more interested in stating and showing you the reality instead of giving you excuses Ruth.

Your own deluded reality.

OK, you say Satan was a danger when he was created
but was Satan a danger from day one of his creation?
Was Satan a danger before sin was found in him?

Read post 280 to know my answer.

You turn soft work into hard work
I am always compelled to fill in the gaping holes in your arguments

Keep telling yourself that.

[s]Let me break it down for you
You do arguments because you trade in sharing ignorance
whereas I do discussions, bartering with knowledge and/or information, for exchange of the ignorance[[/s]/quote]
Blah blah blah.

[quote]To what end or purpose will it serve, giving satan his own universe to run?

To compare that universe with the one God owns, so we can see who runs theirs better and so mankind can decide which they want to live in. That's free will by the way.

If it is that easy and cheap to create a universe and human beings, why haven't Satan, you, LordReed and frank317 not gone to do one?

Because your lazy ass god refuses to use his power and give me one. Or maybe it's because god is imaginary and the whole personal universe was a HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO.

Ruth, I am not making it sound like God planned for satan to rebel

Yes you are.

neither am I indirectly saying God was incompetent.

Yes you are making god sound incompetent.

God, just as was done with Adam and Eve, gave Satan, a moment of choice.

Post 280 shows my new thoughts on this matter.

Ruth, you cant hide from the fact that, Satan was given total freedom to be himself,
afterall, surely, you can accept and agree that, a moment of choice, is a moment of truth
It is a moment to prove oneself

Whatever

It is close and similar to, why none of frank317 characters ever question frank317
or ever try to find faults with frank317 in how he created them and their world

So we are characters in a book with a predestined set of actions. Okay.

Privilege means a special right or advantage that only one person or group of people has

Okay. How does god's privilege allow satan to wreak havoc.

What's your birthdate?
I think I'll treat you to a something nice, like a dictionary, for your birthday

Lame.

1/ People are not punished for infinity

Substantiate this with bible verses or you are a liar.

2/ God is above been morally wrong

So he's above good and evil, yet can't create us above good and evil.

3/ The earth is a perfect rehabilitation system for sinners

No it's not. The earth is where sinners are made, god why do you lack intelligence like this.

4/ Hell is a Greek concept, Sheol or Hades is the approprite word to use

You don't have sense. Hades is the GREEK god of the dead and the underworld, and aren't all three places people are damned to for eternity?

Remember I wrote:
"Bottom line, when there is a blemish in a template, subsequent things made from it will suffer until when the flaw is fixed or template replaced"

Why didn't God fucking replace the template when the flaw was introduced? God's incompetence and/or evil nature is the reason for the pain and suffering.

Ruth, you dont change the default settings so newly created files aren't corrupted, it's the template that is replaced and/or renamed

Why doesn't god do that already?

Should have thought about that first before eating of fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Sorry we've gone past that stage, besides the train has left the platform and station

Yes. God should have thought about that. And why did God put that tree there in the first place?

We didnt have to find meaning in either (i.e. suffering or happiness)
but then, this goes back to Eden and eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

Translation: I don't know so I 'm going to say goddidit.

Why dont you in protest go and create your own parallel universe and your own perfect human beings

Translation: I was caught off gaurd, and rather than say I don't know, I will ask a stupid question to throw my opponent off. Just say you don't know, I will only laugh at you.

I admit I am not half as unfunny as you are with your lame, weak and flat jokes

I never asked for this explanation of your pathetic jokes.

Those verses were talking about you specifically

Clown. That's what you are. After being busted for contradicting yourself or having no answer to my questions, you post stupid responses, questions and insults to damage control instead of admitting you don't know.

I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you a better and stronger
The tragedy of the Garden of Eden is what has been happening and/or is happening all along Ruth.

Still said a whole lot of rubbish. You are a clown, on the level of your brothers, felixmoron, foreverscammer and schizophrenicbutterfly.

God doesn't kill and won't stain His Hands in blood. He uses Satan to kill whatever deserves to die.

In answering this 13 year old girl's question you'll need to use your freewill to ask this question. If the man who created this robot knew that this robot will one day use its freewill and turn the world to what it is today, what will the man do?

Options:

1. The man will make sure the robot does not have freewill so that it will not fall for the deceit of another robot that has already turned bad due to it's own freewill.

2. The man will prepare another super robot that will come to recuse the world from the robots he has created after they have turn the world to what it is today.

The truth is that Satan has put his own verses in the Bible to deceive many into believing there is no GOD as anyone using the freewill GOD has given him/her will know this story does not show that an Omnipotent GOD created this world and it is like this today.

Image url:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpd5J5gDMk

MrBible:
In answering this 13 year old girl's question you'll need to use your freewill to ask this question. If the man who created this robot knew that this robot will one day use its freewill and turn the world to what it is today, what will the man do?

Options:

1. The man will make sure the robot does not have freewill so that it will not fall for the deceit of another robot that has already turned bad due to it's own freewill.

2. The man will prepare another super robot that will come to recuse the world from the robots his has created after they have turn the world to what it is today.

The truth is that Satan has put his own verses in the Bible to deceive many into believing there is no GOD as anyone using the freewill GOD has given him/her will know this story does not show that an Omnipotent GOD created this world and it is like this today.

Image url:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpd5J5gDMk

What stops him from simply not creating the robot, or putting a limit to it's freewill?

Ihedinobi3:


Yes, it has been some time, truthislight. How have you been, friend?

I think the question is obvious. I was not claiming that there was no global flood. I was saying that I was referring to another deluge. There were two. One happened and covered all of material creation before man was made (Gen 1:2) and the second covered only the Earth (Gen 7:24).

Was that ^^^ one still not on planet earth?

truthislight:


Was that ^^^ one still not on planet earth?

With no evidence at all of such a flood but trust Ihedinobi3 to know how water can flood space, engulf all the planets, moons, sun and stars (with no evidence, scientific proof or even workable hypothesis). LMFAO!

RuthlessLeader:

What stops him from simply not creating the robot, or putting a limit to it's freewill?

Good question and in continuation to the previous post below. The answer is that GOD did not create Satan. Satan was the one that created this world including men and women by stealing from GOD what is needed for creation and then mixing creation with his own evil will, in order to deceive men and women that it was GOD Almighty WHO created this world to be the way it is today thereby making many to doubt the existence of an Omnipotent GOD and turning them away from wanting to know GOD Almighty WHO owns all that is in this world including men and women.

Because GOD Almighty owns all that is in this world as they were stolen by Satan to create this world, is the reason GOD still has interest in this world and will one day reclaim all that Satan has stolen and save men and women who have not been too contaminated by Satan and GOD Almighty will make the world a perfect place. Since God did not create Satan, this is the reason why there are Supernatural laws that needs to be followed in order for GOD to reclaim this world from Satan in order to make it perfect.

MrBible:
In answering this 13 year old girl's question you'll need to use your freewill to ask this question. If the man who created this robot knew that this robot will one day use its freewill and turn the world to what it is today, what will the man do?

Options:

1. The man will make sure the robot does not have freewill so that it will not fall for the deceit of another robot that has already turned bad due to it's own freewill.

2. The man will prepare another super robot that will come to recuse the world from the robots he has created after they have turn the world to what it is today.

The truth is that Satan has put his own verses in the Bible to deceive many into believing there is no GOD as anyone using the freewill GOD has given him/her will know this story does not show that an Omnipotent GOD created this world and it is like this today.

Image url:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpd5J5gDMk

MrBible:


Good question and in continuation to the previous post below. The answer is that GOD did not create Satan. Satan was the one that created this world including men and women by stealing from GOD what is needed for creation and then mixing creation with his own evil will, in order to deceive men and women that it was GOD Almighty WHO created this world to be the way it is today thereby making many to doubt the existence of an Omnipotent GOD and turning them away from wanting to know GOD Almighty WHO owns all that is in this world including men and women.

Because GOD Almighty owns all that is in this world as they were stolen by Satan to create this world, is the reason GOD still has interest in this world and will one day reclaim all that Satan has stolen and save men and women who have not been too contaminated by Satan and GOD Almighty will make the world a perfect place. Since God did not create Satan, this is the reason why there are Supernatural laws that needs to be followed in order for GOD to reclaim this world from Satan in order to make it perfect.

And how do you know all this?

RuthlessLeader:

And how do you know all this?

Because men and women are made in the image of GOD but contaminated by Satan after he stole what is needed for creation, is the reason the world is filled with both good and evil from creation, the good being from GOD Almighty and the evil being Satan's contamination of this world after he stole what is needed for creation.

This world is a replica of the supernatural world and that is why humans can make laws and all countries and communities have laws they have to abide by as these laws have already been imprinted in the DNA of humans from creation, just as these robots created by man today have human programmed codes embedded in these robots from when they were created and these robots can never operate outside of this human programmed codes embedded in them.

xpmode:
Simple answer is, no one dies in eternity, you only die in this world of sin

RuthlessLeader:

But if you are a sinner, you spend eternity in hell.

xpmode:


How does your response correlation with the OP or my comments,

DO you need your med

@Xpmode

Don't be a charlatan, see your initial comment and the implied reply you got before you started cursing. If you don't have what to say just keep quiet.

Peace.

xpmode:
Simple answer is, no one dies in eternity, you only die in this world of sin

I can agree that no being actually dies in eternity, but what do you think about this:

Good should delete evil from the onset, but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t. What you need to know is that there is a battle between Good and bad. It is obvious Good will win, but it’s just time dependent. Bad has some power to restrict Good. This is why bad STILL exists in the world. Humanity is bad and will be gotten rid of eventually. Sinners need to read Mark 10:18, we’re told only God is Good and this is proven to be true because all humans have an expiry date while God is eternal. A good being should never die. A good being like God has ultimate power to defeat whatever.

RuthlessLeader:

But if you are a sinner, you spend eternity in hell.

Does this mean all humanity will spend eternity in hell? I say this because of this:

Good should delete evil from the onset, but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t. What you need to know is that there is a battle between Good and bad. It is obvious Good will win, but it’s just time dependent. Bad has some power to restrict Good. This is why bad STILL exists in the world. Humanity is bad and will be gotten rid of eventually. Sinners need to read Mark 10:18, we’re told only God is Good and this is proven to be true because all humans have an expiry date while God is eternal. Nothing should be able to kill a truly good being, but you know humans die all the time in various ways....

theoriginalgood:


I can agree that no being actually dies in eternity, but what do you think about this:

Good should delete evil from the onset, but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t. What you need to know is that there is a battle between Good and bad. It is obvious Good will win, but it’s just time dependent. Bad has some power to restrict Good. This is why bad STILL exists in the world. Humanity is bad and will be gotten rid of eventually. Sinners need to read Mark 10:18, we’re told only God is Good and this is proven to be true because all humans have an expiry date while God is eternal. A good being should never die. A good being like God has ultimate power to defeat whatever.

You are just contradicting yourself. God has ultimate power to defeat whatever but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t.

You people will always have an excuse for this your fairytale god that doesn't make sense.

MrBible:


Because men and women are made in the image of GOD but contaminated by Satan after he stole what is needed for creation, is the reason the world is filled with both good and evil from creation, the good being from GOD Almighty and the evil being Satan's contamination of this world after he stole what is needed for creation.

This world is a replica of the supernatural world and that is why humans can make laws and all countries and communities have laws they have to abide by as these laws have already been imprinted in the DNA of humans from creation, just as these robots created by man today have human programmed codes embedded in these robots from when they were created and these robots can never operate outside of this human programmed codes embedded in them.

LoL! Another storyteller has arrived on the scene.

You and Ihedinobi3 should get together and write a script, I am sure Hollywood will buy it.

LordReed:


You are just contradicting yourself. God has ultimate power to defeat whatever but Good didn’t because Good couldn’t.

You people will always have an excuse for this your fairytale god that doesn't make sense.

Well, I know what I’ve said seems strange, but I thought I explained it well enough. The matter here is just time, mankind is on a journey and not yet at a final destination....

theoriginalgood:


Well, I know what I’ve said seems strange, but I thought I explained it well enough. The matter here is just time, mankind is on a journey and not yet at a final destination....

Its not strange, its contradictory so you ended up not explaining anything. Why do humans need a journey where billions die in pain and suffering?

Anyway religion is comforting to those who cannot fathom that this life is all there is and death is final. That is why a god is necessary but hardly makes any sense because this universe is not created or run by a god.

truthislight:


Was that ^^^ one still not on planet earth?

I'm not sure what you want me to answer you. My statement was that the flood covered the whole universe. You opted to correct it to "earth". I told you that it was no mistake on my part, that I said what I meant to say. And now you say the above. If you want to talk about a global but not universal flood, why don't you do so? That would be your own argument. Stop trying to correct what I said with what you think I must have meant.

Again, there were two floods. The first covered the whole universe including the earth before man was created and the second covered only the planet earth more than a thousand years after man was created.

I was speaking of the first one. Now, if you have something else you wish to say, please say it.

LordReed:


Its not strange, its contradictory so you ended up not explaining anything. Why do humans need a journey where billions die in pain and suffering?

Anyway religion is comforting to those who cannot fathom that this life is all there is and death is final. That is why a god is necessary but hardly makes any sense because this universe is not created or run by a god.

This should be straightforward enough. The one original Good God is somewhere in this existence. At the beginning, he tried to delete bad, but bad actually has some power to prevent this. This is why bad still exists today. Humanity is made up of beings that all die someday. You think a good being is ever supposed to die? Humanity is bad and will be wiped away eventually.

LordReed:


OK you now understand how its a bet right? Good.

Yes Job suffered in the the fairytale story needlessly also his children and servants died because a supposedly all powerful, all knowing god, all good god needed to show off to the evil, rebellious Satan. It is clearly an illogical fairytale but of course you have more elaborate explanations.

I believe that you are being disingenuous. You are saying that you are upset because Job had to suffer because God or Satan knew something?

Usually, the meaning you referred to is used thus:

"I bet he loses his keys".

How does that apply here in the sense of being a "stupid bet"?

Again, feel free to believe whatever you want but you must also defend it whenever you begin to argue.

Does the Bible say or have I myself argued that Job's experience was so that God would show off in any fashion to Satan? Or is that your own argument?

You can call the Bible illogical. You have the freedom to do so. But you will also have to show that it in face is illogical. Can you do that? I'd say no since you haven't managed to, as far as I can see, done that. But it doesn't matter. What you believe is your business.

LordReed:
How about you bring the meaning of lie and show how those statements are lies since you are the one making the accusations.

How about you put on your big boy hat and actually prove something for once? Those were your statements. Why don't you demonstrate how they are actually true and thus prove me to be lying about calling you a liar.

LordReed:
Because neither my teachers nor books claim to be divine, nor do they want me to worship them or believe them on faith.

The fairytale book was not written by any divine being but yet with no proof, wants me to take on faith the existence of a divine being. No truth requires faith to operate, any truth that demands faith is fake. If an all knowing divine being wants me to understand it then unequivocal truths which require no faith or sophistry would be presented.

This is an irrelevant argument. A book is a book. The physical world is the physical world. If you need somebody to teach you about stuff you see everyday, then why do you think you should be able to understand a book that actually claims that it cannot be understood without certain qualifications and provisions when you do not possess them?

The quality of divinity is directly analogous in this case with any claim made by a book of possessing specialized knowledge (like advanced calculus, for example) that can only be accessed if the reader possesses certain qualifications and resources.

LordReed:
You accept that Father of lies is a personification but still say the bible does not regard Satan as the personification of evil, is this not contradictory? Is it not the bible that says Satan is the father of lies? Why do you need to quibble with the most obvious of details?

"That hurricane is a killer" is a personification. Shall we say then that the hurricane is the personification of evil? The fact that "Satan is the father of lies" is a personification does not mean that Satan is the personification of evil.

This point is being argued because you don't appear to understand what evil is. Evil is just rebellion against God. It is nothing more esoteric than that. Therefore, being a rebel does not mean that if God were to permit or command it, Satan cannot stand before him. Even an earthly king may call a rebellious vassal to attend him in his court if he is able to both compel and restrain him. How much more God?

LordReed:
LoL again more elaborate stories to explain the already illogical stories. How is it logical that god has an enemy who has subverted a third of his angelic forces and attempted to seize the throne and still god allows him the responsibility of stewardship of earth? This is the same question the 13 yr old asked in another way, how is this god just allowing his archenemy to do what ever he likes. And the illogical Job story goes on to have the archenemy in his presence even though it is said he cannot behold evil. And not only that, is sweet talked into giving permission for his own best servant to be evilly treated. It is just insane and shows a god who is just dull cos at the end of it there is no lesson for Satan nor does Satan stop doing the accuser of the brethren role. Just a stupid story really.

Yes, more elaborate stories. That is how the Bible works. Truth leads to more truth for those who are obedient enough to follow.

God never allowed Satan to possess stewardship of the Earth. He does not recognize him as the Steward of the Earth. That was why the Lord Jesus became a Man and came to the Earth: to recover control of the Earth from Satan. Man was God's Steward. He forfeited his stewardship to Satan and God recovered it for him. Satan is "allowed to be steward" only in so far as some of God's human stewards give their allegiance to him so that then he has some limited right to present himself in their place.

I have already explained about having Satan in Heaven. You are speaking of Habakkuk 1:13. What it means is that God will not tolerate rebellion indefinitely. He will end it eventually. For now, He is permitting it to mature and prove itself irreversible so that when the rebels are punished, there will be no unfairness attributable to God for it. That does not mean that God cannot tolerate Satan. He certainly can and has. Satan is one of His creatures after all. God can definitely afford to have him come before Him in Heaven since He can both compel and restrain him even in his rebelliousness.

Does the Bible say that God was sweet-talked into anything or was that your own "conjecture"?

Again, the elect angels are learning about God from human history. Satan and the other rebellious angels and humans will find at the Judgment of the White Throne that there is no admissible excuse for which they must not end up in the Lake of Fire. That is how Satan will learn from God's Permission of his continued activity. This is not about changing his mind about anything. Angels are incapable of changing their minds.

LordReed:
Again you are the one conjecturing this summons, the text does not say that. And even if we accept it was a summons the fact that it is a reluctant action does not negate the characterization of it as an everlasting buspass, for Satan to be there it means he has permission to be there, whether by force or will.

Also this your summons narrative does nothing to explain how he is constantly in heaven accusing the brethren. So is it every time he wants to accuse the brethren that god summons him? This is just a mess of illogicality.

Everything you said here is a bald-faced lie. I gave you three different Bible passages explaining how this is a summons and therefore how Satan can be in Heaven at any time at all.

As for a pass, you can keep trying to define words in ways that please you. It appears to be an atheist thing. A pass is permission. My argument is that Satan would not want permission to go to Heaven since he does not want to go there at all. I have also explained why. He is scared of God and being with God prevents him from acting all high and mighty which of course he wants to. So, he would rather be anywhere but Heaven. So, he would not want a pass. He would only go to Heaven under divine compulsion.

LordReed:
The bible story is illogical and no matter how you try you can't fill the holes. The more you try to explain it the more illogicality is exposed. It was not written by any divine being or under the direction of one so it continues to throw up extremely illogical reasons for the conditions of the universe.

You have not shown in even one place were what I wrote was false or presented falsely so you are the one engaged in falsity and high falutin arguments. It is not surprising since you are defending illogicalities.

Oh, I have shown up your lies plenty enough times. Now, feel free to actually try to prove something you say. Find the illogicality that has not been adequately explained and demonstrate its "impossible-to-ignore" illogicality and let us know that you know what you are talking about.

theoriginalgood:


This should be straightforward enough. The one original Good God is somewhere in this existence. At the beginning, he tried to delete bad, but bad actually has some power to prevent this. This is why bad still exists today. Humanity is made up of beings that all die someday. You think a good being is ever supposed to die? Humanity is bad and will be wiped away eventually.

You still are not answering the question why and you are not clearing up the clear contradiction where you say god is all powerful and bad has power to resist god. If bad has the power to resist god then he is not all powerful.

You keep returning to death, to me it shows that it is the fear of death that drives belief in gods and devils.

frank317:

U call something perfect u should know what that means. He should stop calling something perfect when its not. Seriously is your God human that he can never get anything right.
So he already decided Jesus was gonna come and die even before giving angels free will because according to u he already knew the effect of the free will before giving it to man. This makes no sense no matter how many times u repeat it.
Besides the world is still messy... Things really went out of his hands. Whats then the point. He sounds clueless and dumb.

So, the definition of "perfection" is that which can never be damaged? Do you want a dictionary again here?

Again, it makes no sense that someone possessing foreknowledge should act with foresight?

The Bible did not say that the world would quit being messy before the full seven thousand years of human history had run its course. So, the world's still being messy is not proof that God is anything but perfect in planning.

frank317:
What's simple reason about trying to change the meaning of regret. Why don't u edit the bible and write ur own.

Telling you about anthropopathism which is a legitimate literary device is not the same as changing the meaning of the word "regret".

frank317:
The whole thing boils down to God making wrong decision.

Feel free to believe that. But believing it does not make it true. If you want to prove that it does, knock yourself out.

frank317:
Its bad because the preparation didn't go well, other words the 13 years old in the OP wouldn't be askin the question. God didn't still get it right despite knowing the outcome of free will. Was he really choicless?

I have no reason to believe that the preparation did not go well. The fact that my six year old nephew asks me why I moved a bishop instead of a queen in a game of chess does not mean that I played wrong.

frank317:
Why will I not blame God? Didn't u say he knew all this will happen even before giving man freewill? That's exactly why I blame him.

Well, if that is your reason, then you should praise Him as well, since I also said that He prepared the Solution to all the problems that would come from creature possession of a free will and has actually already successfully deployed that Solution.

frank317:
Ya, he knew man will make wrong choice and still gave man free will expecting the same man whom he knew will make the wrong choice to make the right choice.. Do u even listen to urself? Is God daft? Are u trying to insult ur God?

That's a lot of problems to have with English words, Frank. Incidentally, the word "man" describes both an individual and also the whole complement of the human race so that if some men in that complement make the wrong choice, it is not unreasonable to expect some other men to make the right one.

frank317:
I am glad u know this.

I take it that you finally agree. I've been saying it from the start of our conversation but you seemed to not really care.

frank317:
Are u saying God is not trying to fix things?

Oh, I have said plenty times that He HAS FIXED and IS FIXING everything. You haven't been paying attention, it appears.

frank317:
It is already implied in ur statement. God allows devil deal with Christians exactly the way he allowed the devil kill Jobs kids. U said its love if he allows the devil kill ur children. Why will he be allowing it if he does not enjoy it?
Heck he even ask Satan "have u seen my son Job?"

Lots of parents allow their babies to "suffer the needle" to preserve them from dangerous diseases. I suppose by your logic, it means that they enjoy their babies' pain and cries?

frank317:
Whatever... Assumption is not a confident statement.

There's that "intellectual laziness" we talked about.

frank317:
Oh I am just learning this now.

More proof that you haven't been paying attention.

frank317:
Yawns... Tell me more mythical tales.

No, thank you. I don't often tell those.

frank317:
Why did God not kill Satan from the onset. This is a question asked by a 13 years old after ur God supposedly prepared for what's to come upon knowing that giving angels free will will mesa things up.

Asked and answered.

LordReed:


With no evidence at all of such a flood but trust Ihedinobi3 to know how water can flood space, engulf all the planets, moons, sun and stars (with no evidence, scientific proof or even workable hypothesis). LMFAO!

And giving you all these would help you believe? Didn't you call all my explanations "elaborate fairytales" or something very like that. I don't remember you even granting me the dignity of having advanced testable hypotheses. Why would anything else I offer make a difference here?

LordReed:


You still are not answering the question why and you are not clearing up the clear contradiction where you say god is all powerful and bad has power to resist god. If bad has the power to resist god then he is not all powerful.

You keep returning to death, to me it shows that it is the fear of death that drives belief in gods and devils.

Brilliant! Maybe I can say that “ultimately” God is all-powerful because the conclusion is that Good will eliminate bad from existence. Which brings me to the next point; the temporary or permanent nature of life. I believe when you say “god” and “devil”, you mean one is “good” and the other “bad” accordingly. Yea? The aspect of death is clearly very important. To be able to defeat death, I believe one must be “good”, which is perfect in every way. For ideal logic, something “good” must be permanent as well while something “bad” must be absent in the perfect situation. Unfortunately, since “bad” is not absent, the next logical conclusion is that “bad” should be temporary. This temporary nature means being able to stop or “die”.

Ihedinobi3:

I believe that you are being disingenuous. You are saying that you are upset because Job had to suffer because God or Satan knew something?

Usually, the meaning you referred to is used thus:

"I bet he loses his keys".

How does that apply here in the sense of being a "stupid bet"?

Again, feel free to believe whatever you want but you must also defend it whenever you begin to argue.

Does the Bible say or have I myself argued that Job's experience was so that God would show off in any fashion to Satan? Or is that your own argument?

You can call the Bible illogical. You have the freedom to do so. But you will also have to show that it in face is illogical. Can you do that? I'd say no since you haven't managed to, as far as I can see, done that. But it doesn't matter. What you believe is your business.

Yes its a stupid and illogical because god says "hey satan, seen my servant job?" Satan replies "yeah I've seen him but I bet you if you did shit to him he'll not be your servant" and god says "yeah go ahead and do shit to him".

What stupid god who knows all things needs to acquiesce to an inferior creation to find out what he already knows? Why did he need to even mention Job to satan if not to show off? Why would he need to see Job debased to prove his loyalty? A transcendent god can't think of a better way to express his servant's loyalty than to see him debased? And what lesson did satan take from this, accuse the brethren some more because god will grant satan's wishes? What a stupid tale.

How about you put on your big boy hat and actually prove something for once? Those were your statements. Why don't you demonstrate how they are actually true and thus prove me to be lying about calling you a liar.

LoL. After you got me to look up a dictionary for the meaning of bet, you refuse to do the same for lie. You are a hypocrite on top of being disingenuous it seems. You made the accusations, you prove it.

This is an irrelevant argument. A book is a book. The physical world is the physical world. If you need somebody to teach you about stuff you see everyday, then why do you think you should be able to understand a book that actually claims that it cannot be understood without certain qualifications and provisions when you do not possess them?

The quality of divinity is directly analogous in this case with any claim made by a book of possessing specialized knowledge (like advanced calculus, for example) that can only be accessed if the reader possesses certain qualifications and resources.

LoL. What yeye qualifications are you on about? I went to bible school and speak in tongues so which yeye qualifications do you want again? And even ignoring that, if a transcendent being cannot write its own words then it may as well not exist. If it cannot communicate its ideas in a way the lowliest human can grasp then it is a stupid transcendent being, one that rubbishes the meaning of transcendent. If a transcendent being cannot provide unequivocal proof of its existence then it is a fraud.

"That hurricane is a killer" is a personification. Shall we say then that the hurricane is the personification of evil? The fact that "Satan is the father of lies" is a personification does not mean that Satan is the personification of evil.

This point is being argued because you don't appear to understand what evil is. Evil is just rebellion against God. It is nothing more esoteric than that. Therefore, being a rebel does not mean that if God were to permit or command it, Satan cannot stand before him. Even an earthly king may call a rebellious vassal to attend him in his court if he is able to both compel and restrain him. How much more God?

Go and look at the difference in meaning between anthropomorphism and personification maybe you'll understand better. Meanwhile is lying not evil according to your fairytale? Do liars go to heaven or hell? Who was the first rebel according to the fairytale?

Please give me one real life example where a vassal in open rebellion is called to attend a King without consequence.

Yes, more elaborate stories. That is how the Bible works. Truth leads to more truth for those who are obedient enough to follow.

God never allowed Satan to possess stewardship of the Earth. He does not recognize him as the Steward of the Earth. That was why the Lord Jesus became a Man and came to the Earth: to recover control of the Earth from Satan. Man was God's Steward. He forfeited his stewardship to Satan and God recovered it for him. Satan is "allowed to be steward" only in so far as some of God's human stewards give their allegiance to him so that then he has some limited right to present himself in their place.

I have already explained about having Satan in Heaven. You are speaking of Habakkuk 1:13. What it means is that God will not tolerate rebellion indefinitely. He will end it eventually. For now, He is permitting it to mature and prove itself irreversible so that when the rebels are punished, there will be no unfairness attributable to God for it. That does not mean that God cannot tolerate Satan. He certainly can and has. Satan is one of His creatures after all. God can definitely afford to have him come before Him in Heaven since He can both compel and restrain him even in his rebelliousness.

Does the Bible say that God was sweet-talked into anything or was that your own "conjecture"?

Again, the elect angels are learning about God from human history. Satan and the other rebellious angels and humans will find at the Judgment of the White Throne that there is no admissible excuse for which they must not end up in the Lake of Fire. That is how Satan will learn from God's Permission of his continued activity. This is not about changing his mind about anything. Angels are incapable of changing their minds.

LoL. Angels are incapable of changing their minds but satan changed his from good to evil. See how stupid your story gets? Angels can't change their minds but they are learning from human history, how do you learn if you can't change your mind? Like how much more contradictory can you get?

God does not recognize satan as a vassal yet he summons him as a vassal? What stupidity do you keep spilling out?

Again explain this other stupidity in the fairytale:

1 Kings 22
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So did god also summon this lying spirit? How did a lying spirit come to be in the midst of the host of heaven? God summoned him but happened to forget that he summoned a lying spirit? Your fairytale is just a bunch of stupid gibberish.

Yes I conjectured the sweet talk, still doesn't take anything away from the fact that the fairytale records god acquiescing to satan's words.

Everything you said here is a bald-faced lie. I gave you three different Bible passages explaining how this is a summons and therefore how Satan can be in Heaven at any time at all.

As for a pass, you can keep trying to define words in ways that please you. It appears to be an atheist thing. A pass is permission. My argument is that Satan would not want permission to go to Heaven since he does not want to go there at all. I have also explained why. He is scared of God and being with God prevents him from acting all high and mighty which of course he wants to. So, he would rather be anywhere but Heaven. So, he would not want a pass. He would only go to Heaven under divine compulsion.

You are so disingenuous it has become ridiculous. Show me in Job where it says god summoned satan. You bring some scriptures which do not refer to satan, make it mean that god summons satan and you call me the liar. You are the liar, lying to defend a fake fairytale.

How does it even make sense to you that god summons the accuser of the brethren to heaven day and night just so he could keep accusing the brethren and getting permission to do evil stuff to them? And even if he is summoned, does a summons not mean an implicit permission? Keep quibbling with simple things, shows how willfully disingenuous you are.

Oh, I have shown up your lies plenty enough times. Now, feel free to actually try to prove something you say. Find the illogicality that has not been adequately explained and demonstrate its "impossible-to-ignore" illogicality and let us know that you know what you are talking about.

You showed nothing but an inability to understand English or maybe to deliberately be obtuse and a great aptitude for twisting stories to fit your illogical narratives. You are also willing to lie for your fairytale defence, shows just how depraved you've become.

Ihedinobi3:

And giving you all these would help you believe? Didn't you call all my explanations "elaborate fairytales" or something very like that. I don't remember you even granting me the dignity of having advanced testable hypotheses. Why would anything else I offer make a difference here?

If you provide testable proof I will agree with your universal flood story.

LordReed:


If you provide testable proof I will agree with your universal flood story.

You have enough already.

Ihedinobi3:

You have enough already.

LoL! I thought you said I didn't give you a chance? Gosh you are so disingenuous.

theoriginalgood:


Brilliant! Maybe I can say that “ultimately” God is all-powerful because the conclusion is that Good will eliminate bad from existence. Which brings me to the next point; the temporary or permanent nature of life. I believe when you say “god” and “devil”, you mean one is “good” and the other “bad” accordingly. Yea? The aspect of death is clearly very important. To be able to defeat death, I believe one must be “good”, which is perfect in every way. For ideal logic, something “good” must be permanent as well while something “bad” must be absent in the perfect situation. Unfortunately, since “bad” is not absent, the next logical conclusion is that “bad” should be temporary. This temporary nature means being able to stop or “die”.

The universe shows no natural inclinations to moral judgements called good or bad, it just is. Men like you and I are the ones calling things good and bad.

So tell me now that modern medicine is getting to the point where we can stop & possibly reverse aging and potentially end death, what happens to this your narrative?