Ihedinobi3:
In our last conversation, you remember that I refused to defend an argument because I never made it to you. I told you then that I am averse to being made responsible to prove anything I don't claim. If you ask me to answer questions, I am happy to. If you demand evidence for a claim I have not made to you, I may or may not offer it. That depends on how generous I want to be.

The problem is that you act exactly like many antichristians I know while insisting that you are not one. Your threads are all attacks (not that you are not welcome to them, you certainly are) and for that reason I generally don't participate. But you specifically called my attention here just to attack me in stealth? That is not something anyone does in good faith.

I do find you delightful to discuss with sometimes and I wish that were always the case. I wish that I could believe that you are really just trying to understand the Christian Faith or why anyone could hold such a "ridiculous" worldview. But I don't. I see too much evidence of an effort to destroy a Faith if you can. I told you that I have an interest in the health of weaker believers than myself so it is currently impossible to give you benefit of the doubt anymore.

I will admit that I am just as anti-christian as I am atheist. I've mentioned many times in these religious sections about how arrogant I find the theist worldview. Its one thing to propose the existence of a deity as a first cause of the universe when you don't know for certain, but its another thing to cook up creation stories, create fictional characters and dimensional beings and locations, doctrines etc I just find it very irrational because we have absolutely no verifiable proof that any of this is true. I personally am not completely against the existence of a "god". Since I graduated college, I've been swinging between deism and atheism (I've never really been satisfies with theism) until I realized that atheism is a more logical standpoint. I just find religion to be a sham used to control people.
That being said, In as much as I do have a distaste for any religion (not just christianity), I never designed the questions with the intent of malice. I'm just a very curious person by nature. I always love to know more than I already do. I'm just interested in finding out what makes Christianity so special besides it being the most prominent religion in the world. I just happen not to have come accross any convincing evidence of the claims made by any religion, including christianity.

Ihedinobi3:
You are welcome to your preferences. But I don't really care what you believe. However, since you have made these claims, perhaps you can show how evolution and the Big Bang explain creation better.

I really don't care about what you think of my beliefs either, but we're engaging in argument, aren't we?
Six-day creation is certainly easier to understand. "God did it using magic powers because he wanted to" is simple, easy to digest. A small child can follow it. In fact, it's usually taught to small children, long before they develop critical thinking skills.
That's why for me, evolution was much harder to believe. I was raised into a creationist viewpoint from the time I was five years old. To me it was just self evidently true because, well, just because! You look both ways before crossing the street, you don't talk to strangers, and God made the world in six days. It was all of a piece. And I didn't like my science teachers, so I wasn't trying all that hard to learn science in school. And although I did learn, creationism was so deeply ingrained in me that for years I didn't even notice that I believed in two completely contradictory narratives about the beginning of the world.
But over time I began to understand something. You do not have a choice between Six-Day Creation and Evolution. It's a much more fundamental conflict. Six-day creation (and the events of Genesis that come with it) conflicts with the entire field of geology. And astronomy. And cosmology. And biology. And paleontology. And physical anthropology. And biogeography. And physics. And meteorology.
Believing in six-day creation puts you at war with almost every field of scientific endeavor. You literally would need more than one human lifetime to even read and understand all of the information in all of the fields that refutes the concept of six-day creation. Having accepted the validity of science, you will not actually live long enough to ever fully understand how wrong six-day creation is.
So In as much as i'm not 100% certian of the evolution theory today (the truth remains no one knows for certain), I still find it more logical and less assuming than Creationism. Its easier, at least in my opinion to defend evolution than it is to defend creationism.
As for the Big Bang theory, it does not have to make intuitive sense. It has to be the most straightforward explanation which is consistent with the available evidence, which is what it is.

Science is often not intuitive because our experiences are limited. However, through many generations of brilliant minds building upon each other, painstaking observation, and rigorous measurement, we have managed to build a description of the universe which matches our current ability to observe.

5thElement:


It does mean something. The only thing that brings you together is a lack of belief in something.

What else do you have in common anyway? Anything you all stand for? Apart from the God phobia y'all share?

The only thing atheists have in common is their rejection of any religion because of the lack of credible, objectifiable, verifiable evidence. Maybe a deity exists, but there's no way to know for certain. I see no evidence for you theists to go ahead and name these gods and start making up fairy tales. Check out deism, a less arrogant worldview in my opinion
PS You can't fear what does not exist. Hence "God phobia" is not a term for me

XxSabrinaxX:

I will admit that I am just as anti-christian as I am atheist. I've mentioned many times in these religious sections about how arrogant I find the theist worldview. Its one thing to propose the existence of a deity as a first cause of the universe when you don't know for certain, but its another thing to cook up creation stories, create fictional characters and dimensional beings and locations, doctrines etc I just find it very irrational because we have absolutely no verifiable proof that any of this is true. I personally am not completely against the existence of a "god". Since I graduated college, I've been swinging between deism and atheism (I've never really been satisfies with theism) until I realized that atheism is a more logical standpoint. I just find religion to be a sham used to control people.
That being said, In as much as I do have a distaste for any religion (not just christianity), I never designed the questions with the intent of malice. I'm just a very curious person by nature. I always love to know more than I already do. I'm just interested in finding out what makes Christianity so special besides it being the most prominent religion in the world. I just happen not to have come accross any convincing evidence of the claims made by any religion, including christianity.

If I had a dime for every time an atheist has said, "I'm just a very curious person by nature...", you know what they say.

Now that you admit it, I am hoping that going forward I will not have to argue endlessly with you about what you do. Pretend all you please to yourself that you are not looking to swindle weak Christians out of their Faith, but before you insist to me again that that is the case, read the above.

Also, it should be perfectly crystal to you now why I will not treat you with kid gloves. There are many underhanded tactics that debaters use that I tolerate graciously because I am willing to just assume that not every atheist is necessarily an antichristian. In fact, I tolerated them even in this conversation with you. The reason I do that is that I have no doubt that it is impossible for anybody to confound the Christian Faith. Its foundations are more stable than anything anyone may imagine. So I can afford to be generous.

But I do have weaker siblings who don't know yet what I know, who don't have the gifts that I have. So, I hope that we will not have any problems moving forward whenever I decide to hold you to stricter debating standards than I normally do.

XxSabrinaxX:
I really don't care about what you think of beliefs either, but we're engaging in argument, aren't we?
Six-day creation is certainly easier to understand. "God did it using magic powers because he wanted to" is simple, easy to digest. A small child can follow it. In fact, it's usually taught to small children, long before they develop critical thinking skills.
That's why for me, evolution was much harder to believe. I was raised into a creationist viewpoint from the time I was five years old. To me it was just self evidently true because, well, just because! You look both ways before crossing the street, you don't talk to strangers, and God made the world in six days. It was all of a piece. And I didn't like my science teachers, so I wasn't trying all that hard to learn science in school. And although I did learn, creationism was so deeply ingrained in me that for years I didn't even notice that I believed in two completely contradictory narratives about the beginning of the world.
But over time I began to understand something. You do not have a choice between Six-Day Creation and Evolution. It's a much more fundamental conflict. Six-day creation (and the events of Genesis that come with it) conflicts with the entire field of geology. And astronomy. And cosmology. And biology. And paleontology. And physical anthropology. And biogeography. And physics. And meteorology.
Believing in six-day creation puts you at war with almost every field of scientific endeavor. You literally would need more than one human lifetime to even read and understand all of the information in all of the fields that refutes the concept of six-day creation. Having accepted the validity of science, you will not actually live long enough to ever fully understand how wrong six-day creation is.
So In as much as i'm not 100% certian of the evolution theory today (the truth remains no one knows for certain), I still find it more logical and less assuming than Creationism. Its easier, at least in my opinion to defend evolution than it is to defend creationism.
As for the Big Bang theory, it does not have to make intuitive sense. It has to be the most straightforward explanation which is consistent with the available evidence, which is what it is.

Science is often not intuitive because our experiences are limited. However, through many generations of brilliant minds building upon each other, painstaking observation, and rigorous measurement, we have managed to build a description of the universe which matches our current ability to observe.

I have at least one brilliant Christian apologist friend who thinks the same about evolution and creation. Alvin Platinga, a renowned Christian philosopher too, gives at least a nod to evolution. Plenty enough Christians who know the science have been cowed by it. So, I am not in the least surprised that an antichristian is nuts about it. But what do you know really about the Bible's account of creation?

My counter will answer some things in your other post so I encourage you to pay attention. I will not answer the other post just yet, but I will in due course.

First, the Universe was not created in six days. It was re-created in six days.

The whole Universe was created at once long before that re-creation happened. At the time, it was made for the angels. How long they lived in that perfect universe before Satan's rebellion and how long the rebellion lasted until God judged it is completely unknown to man. But given that angels are not susceptible to physical death and that they had far greater knowledge and power than man so that their own test was a one-time, extremely comprehensive affair, it probably took much longer in human ways of measuring than we might be willing to consider.

It was only after every angel had made their decision about God that He destroyed that first Universe with a deluge that covered the whole universe. How that may even have affected the observable age of the Universe is yet another consideration to make.

What happened from Genesis 1:3 until the end of that first chapter was a reconstruction of the Universe, only this time it was to prepare the Earth particularly for the creation of Man. The third Heaven was already created by then too so that God could remove His Manifest Presence away from the corrupt Universe and sequester it with the faithful angels in a place from where He would resolve the creature rebellion that had begun. Otherwise, God and the angels had previously been in fellowship together on the pristine Earth.

It was also during that rebellion that the dinosaurs were made. The human-like fossils too that evolutionists were losing their minds about? Yeah, those too were made then. And much besides. Satan and his fellow rebels did all that for the exact same reason that atheists reject Christ: they insisted, just like you, that God was just trying to control them and prevent them from taking what they wanted. What they wanted was physical bodies. And that was what they tried very hard to make for themselves ruining the Earth in the process.

The six-day reconstruction should just make any thinking person pause. Why would God make the whole Universe in six days and rest on the seventh? Does God get tired? Why didn't He make it in any other number of days? I didn't pause earlier admittedly to ask about the number but I did wonder why God had to rest at all. Turns out that the number was what was important. God used the number of days in which He reconstructed Creation to teach us how long He planned human history to run and in what exact way. Each single day was planned to demonstrate how each epoch of human history would look and what it would accomplish.

So, you see, maybe science is just trying to keep up with stuff that it barely understands.

Now, I am a human being with a brain too. I know some of the science involved too. So I'm not completely in the dark about all the eye-rolling you are probably tempted to do. But we have different vantage points. As much as I respect human ability, I have far less regard for it than I do for the divine. So I am actually probably as tempted as you to roll my eyes at the idea that a couple hundred or slightly more years of rigorous "sciencing" has given us the map of existence, even if only enough to prove that the Bible is wrong. After all, science has done quite a few aboutfaces in history only to end up agreeing with the Bible after arrogantly rejecting it the first time around.

Okay, so that's just making the Bible's case.

But how about the idea that evolution is how everything exists? One organism spontaneously changes in some fundamental way and results in offspring that are different? Elementary particles spontaneously condense and behave in ways to produce increasingly more complex systems over vast eons of time? And this is more defensible than to say that a God with a Plan and Who is self-existing made it all? Incredible! That is what I call insanity. Granted that scientific knowledge has produced amazement, I still cannot accept those amazements as any cogent reason to take leave of my senses! Gluons, mesons, muons, and quarks over time combine themselves into hydrogen, helium, gold and stars and planets and whole galaxies and constellations and what have you?! And a primordial soup of proteins results in all the incredible flora and fauna that we see?! What?! The existence of the IPhone and the Hubble Telescope and MRI technology are not enough to convince me of such madness.

I'm thinking you get my drift. I'm perfectly fine figuring out how the physical universe around me works and using that knowledge to produce what beautiful and useful things I can - if I possess such talent - but I'm not about to assume that because I can work out when the apple will hit the ground, I know exactly how apple trees came to be. Some questions are completely outside the realm of science.

Like I said, I will answer your other post later. It's late and I have some dusting up to do to get to the arguments you make there. I should mention though that you probably need to learn to make proofs. Throwing claims at me is not going to work.

1Sharon:


I must be the only person who read that thread with a straight face. The insults were childish

You won't fully understand the thread. XxSabrinaxX and Shelumiel have a complex beef history

Ihedinobi3:


First, the Universe was not created in six days. It was re-created in six days.

The whole Universe was created at once long before that re-creation happened. At the time, it was made for the angels. How long they lived in that perfect universe before Satan's rebellion and how long the rebellion lasted until God judged it is completely unknown to man. But given that angels are not susceptible to physical death and that they had far greater knowledge and power than man so that their own test was a one-time, extremely comprehensive affair, it probably took much longer in human ways of measuring than we might be willing to consider.

ROFLMAO!! Please where was it said in the bible that the universe was re-created in six days?

Ihedinobi3:

If I had a dime for every time an atheist has said, "I'm just a very curious person by nature...", you know what they say.

Now that you admit it, I am hoping that going forward I will not have to argue endlessly with you about what you do. Pretend all you please to yourself that you are not looking to swindle weak Christians out of their Faith, but before you insist to me again that that is the case, read the above.

Well, I'm sorry for trying to search for evidence to back up claims. Maybe I should continue remain brainwashed by a religion I have no verifiable evidence of its legitimacy. Please. Do you even know how these things work? Me disliking religion and arguing against doesn't automatically translate to me intentionally swindling people from their faith! I can easily accuse you of doing the same. There you go again with your baseless conclusions.

Ihedinobi3:
Also, it should be perfectly crystal to you now why I will not treat you with kid gloves. There are many underhanded tactics that debaters use that I tolerate graciously because I am willing to just assume that not every atheist is necessarily an antichristian. In fact, I tolerated them even in this conversation with you. The reason I do that is that I have no doubt that it is impossible for anybody to confound the Christian Faith. Its foundations are more stable than anything anyone may imagine. So I can afford to be generous.

Classic. Butthurt because I don't agree with your beliefs. But later you'll accuse me of the same.

Ihedinobi3:
But I do have weaker siblings who don't know yet what I know, who don't have the gifts that I have. So, I hope that we will not have any problems moving forward whenever I decide to hold you to stricter debating standards than I normally do.

That depends on you to be honest. You're the one constantly putting words in my mouth and looking for a way to entrap me by attributing your biased cliche opinions of atheists on to me. If you feel like taking off the kid gloves, I don't mind. Your own is too much.

Ihedinobi3:
I have at least one brilliant Christian apologist friend who thinks the same about evolution and creation. Alvin Platinga, a renowned Christian philosopher too, gives at least a nod to evolution. Plenty enough Christians who know the science have been cowed by it. So, I am not in the least surprised that an antichristian is nuts about it. But what do you know really about the Bible's account of creation?

I know enough to know that it pales in comparison to other theories when held up for scrutiny. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Ihedinobi3:
My counter will answer some things in your other post so I encourage you to pay attention. I will not answer the other post just yet, but I will in due course.

First, the Universe was not created in six days. It was re-created in six days.

I'm lost. Explain how you came at this conclusion. Was it specifically stated in the bible? You have an annoying habit of shifting goalposts when your claims have been called out.

Ihedinobi3:
The whole Universe was created at once long before that re-creation happened. At the time, it was made for the angels. How long they lived in that perfect universe before Satan's rebellion and how long the rebellion lasted until God judged it is completely unknown to man. But given that angels are not susceptible to physical death and that they had far greater knowledge and power than man so that their own test was a one-time, extremely comprehensive affair, it probably took much longer in human ways of measuring than we might be willing to consider.

It was only after every angel had made their decision about God that He destroyed that first Universe with a deluge that covered the whole universe. How that may even have affected the observable age of the Universe is yet another consideration to make.

What happened from Genesis 1:3 until the end of that first chapter was a reconstruction of the Universe, only this time it was to prepare the Earth particularly for the creation of Man. The third Heaven was already created by then too so that God could remove His Manifest Presence away from the corrupt Universe and sequester it with the faithful angels in a place from where He would resolve the creature rebellion that had begun. Otherwise, God and the angels had previously been in fellowship together on the pristine Earth.

It was also during that rebellion that the dinosaurs were made. The human-like fossils too that evolutionists were losing their minds about? Yeah, those too were made then. And much besides. Satan and his fellow rebels did all that for the exact same reason that atheists reject Christ: they insisted, just like you, that God was just trying to control them and prevent them from taking what they wanted. What they wanted was physical bodies. And that was what they tried very hard to make for themselves ruining the Earth in the process.

The six-day reconstruction should just make any thinking person pause. Why would God make the whole Universe in six days and rest on the seventh? Does God get tired? Why didn't He make it in any other number of days? I didn't pause earlier admittedly to ask about the number but I did wonder why God had to rest at all. Turns out that the number was what was important. God used the number of days in which He reconstructed Creation to teach us how long He planned human history to run and in what exact way. Each single day was planned to demonstrate how each epoch of human history would look and what it would accomplish.

So, you see, maybe science is just trying to keep up with stuff that it barely understands.

Like I said, a documentation would suffice for this story of yours. Are you actually quoting documents or are you making all this up? How does this story support the evidence of the creation story as explained in the bible?

Ihedinobi3:
Now, I am a human being with a brain too. I know some of the science involved too. So I'm not completely in the dark about all the eye-rolling you are probably tempted to do. But we have different vantage points. As much as I respect human ability, I have far less regard for it than I do for the divine. So I am actually probably as tempted as you to roll my eyes at the idea that a couple hundred or slightly more years of rigorous "sciencing" has given us the map of existence, even if only enough to prove that the Bible is wrong. After all, science has done quite a few aboutfaces in history only to end up agreeing with the Bible after arrogantly rejecting it the first time around.

Do you know the one thing you don't want to admit, Ihedinobi3?; Is that you don't know. They're all theories! I said it myself that maybe a god exists, but there is almost no way to know FOR A FACT that this is true. Evolution? The Big Bang? Creationism? THEORIES!

Ihedinobi3:
Okay, so that's just making the Bible's case.

But how about the idea that evolution is how everything exists? One organism spontaneously changes in some fundamental way and results in offspring that are different? Elementary particles spontaneously condense and behave in ways to produce increasingly more complex systems over vast eons of time? And this is more defensible than to say that a God with a Plan and Who is self-existing made it all? Incredible! That is what I call insanity. Granted that scientific knowledge has produced amazement, I still cannot accept those amazements as any cogent reason to take leave of my senses! Gluons, mesons, muons, and quarks over time combine themselves into hydrogen, helium, gold and stars and planets and whole galaxies and constellations and what have you?! And a primordial soup of proteins results in all the incredible flora and fauna that we see?! What?! The existence of the IPhone and the Hubble Telescope and MRI technology are not enough to convince me of such madness.

Have you ever researched Abiogenesis? First of all, Evolution(like i've said billions of times), is a theory. So is Creationism. Theories are uncertain. Start with family relationships. Living things can be classified into species, genera, families and so on, and Darwin pointed out that this is exactly the structure we would expect from a family tree. All dogs are canines, so dogs share an ancestor with foxes; all canines are carnivora, so dogs share a more remote ancestor with bears; all carnivora are mammals, so dogs and sheep are, albeit more remotely, related, and so on.
Then look at the discovery over the past few decades of family relationships at the molecular level, and the fact that the molecular family tree matches that based on anatomical resemblances.
Observe the fossil record. Once lamentably full of gaps (Darwin was among the lamenters), it is now densely populated. A century ago, it still made sense to point to the “missing link” between humans and pre-human apes. Now we know of several different hominin species living alongside each other, and the problem becomes one of distinguishing our grandparents from our great uncles. And yes, there are missing links in the chain, but without evolution we would not have a chain at all.
And then there’s biogeography: for example, why marsupials are only found in South America and Australasia, and except for a few species that made their way across the Isthmus of Panama, are never found elsewhere.
Plus we can actually observe evolution, and study it in the field or in the lab. The emergence of pesticide resistance is evolution in action, as shown in the justly famous Harvard/Technion demonstration “evolution on a plate”. So is the delightful Russian experiment of breeding tame foxes. Artificial selection, just as much as natural selection, is evolution in action.
And finally, and most convincingly, we must look at the way that these different lines of evidence mesh together. We can apply biogeography to the fossil record, and link it to what we know about the movements of the continents. Using the methods of molecular biology, we can identify and time the mutations that led different species to diverge from their common ancestor, and match the timing against the fossil record. Now I'd take all this over the creation story which (mind you I'm taking from the bible, unless there is some other document explaining the creation story), implies a human being created from dust, and so many other contradictory facts that I may be forgetting right now. The only way to justify the creation story to me, is to employ metaphorical theism and even that fails because you can't just interprete a passage to mean something you're not 100% certain of.

Ihedinobi3:
I'm thinking you get my drift. I'm perfectly fine figuring out how the physical universe around me works and using that knowledge to produce what beautiful and useful things I can - if I possess such talent - but I'm not about to assume that because I can work out when the apple will hit the ground, I know exactly how apple trees came to be. Some questions are completely outside the realm of science.

THIS. Is exactly my point. Science has no answer for the supernatural. Nobody can know for certain if the paranormal exists! So how did you not only come up with the idea of deity's existence, but also the name of the deity and the legitimate religion?

Ihedinobi3:
Like I said, I will answer your other post later. It's late and I have some dusting up to do to get to the arguments you make there. I should mention though that you probably need to learn to make proofs. Throwing claims at me is not going to work.

Do yourself a favor and adhere to your own advice.

XxSabrinaxX:

Well, I'm sorry for trying to search for evidence to back up claims. Maybe I should continue remain brainwashed by a religion I have no verifiable evidence of its legitimacy. Please. Do you even know how these things work? Me disliking religion and arguing against doesn't automatically translate to me intentionally swindling people from their faith! I can easily accuse you of doing the same. There you go again with your baseless conclusions.



Classic. Butthurt because I don't agree with your beliefs. But later you'll accuse me of the same.


That depends on you to be honest. You're the one constantly putting words in my mouth and looking for a way to entrap me by attributing your biased cliche opinions of atheists on to me. If you feel like taking off the kid gloves, I don't mind. Your own is too much.




I know enough to know that it pales in comparison to other theories when held up for scrutiny. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?



I'm lost. Explain how you came at this conclusion. Was it specifically stated in the bible? You have an annoying habit of shifting goalposts when your claims have been called out.


Like I said, a documentation would suffice for this story of yours. Are you actually quoting documents or are you making all this up? How does this story support the evidence of the creation story as explained in the bible?


Do you know the one thing you don't want to admit, Ihedinobi3?; Is that you don't know. They're all theories! I said it myself that maybe a god exists, but there is almost no way to know FOR A FACT that this is true. Evolution? The Big Bang? Creationism? THEORIES!


Have you ever researched Abiogenesis? First of all, Evolution(like i've said billions of times), is a theory. So is Creationism. Theories are uncertain. Start with family relationships. Living things can be classified into species, genera, families and so on, and Darwin pointed out that this is exactly the structure we would expect from a family tree. All dogs are canines, so dogs share an ancestor with foxes; all canines are carnivora, so dogs share a more remote ancestor with bears; all carnivora are mammals, so dogs and sheep are, albeit more remotely, related, and so on.
Then look at the discovery over the past few decades of family relationships at the molecular level, and the fact that the molecular family tree matches that based on anatomical resemblances.
Observe the fossil record. Once lamentably full of gaps (Darwin was among the lamenters), it is now densely populated. A century ago, it still made sense to point to the “missing link” between humans and pre-human apes. Now we know of several different hominin species living alongside each other, and the problem becomes one of distinguishing our grandparents from our great uncles. And yes, there are missing links in the chain, but without evolution we would not have a chain at all.
And then there’s biogeography: for example, why marsupials are only found in South America and Australasia, and except for a few species that made their way across the Isthmus of Panama, are never found elsewhere.
Plus we can actually observe evolution, and study it in the field or in the lab. The emergence of pesticide resistance is evolution in action, as shown in the justly famous Harvard/Technion demonstration “evolution on a plate”. So is the delightful Russian experiment of breeding tame foxes. Artificial selection, just as much as natural selection, is evolution in action.
And finally, and most convincingly, we must look at the way that these different lines of evidence mesh together. We can apply biogeography to the fossil record, and link it to what we know about the movements of the continents. Using the methods of molecular biology, we can identify and time the mutations that led different species to diverge from their common ancestor, and match the timing against the fossil record. Now I'd take all this over the creation story which (mind you I'm taking from the bible, unless there is some other document explaining the creation story), implies a human being created from dust, and so many other contradictory facts that I may be forgetting right now. The only way to justify the creation story to me, is to employ metaphorical theism and even that fails because you can't just interprete a passage to mean something you're not 100% certain of.


THIS. Is exactly my point. Science has no answer for the supernatural. Nobody can know for certain if the paranormal exists! So how did you not only come up with the idea of deity's existence, but also the name of the deity and the legitimate religion?


Do yourself a favor and adhere to your own advice.

Nice performance, Sabrine.
I know you will always be ready for them.
Hell is always ready to applaud you.

HellVictorinho:

Nice performance, Sabrine.
I know you will always be ready for them.
Hell is always ready to applaud you.

All her argument wont still change anytime ! it just a waste of timetime, God created the brain, stop acting smarter.

And. XxsabrinaxX
She keep quoting science, as if she was there when they perform experiment

All the blabbing, is just the piece of info you gather from the internet

It all still don't make sense, why should you be asking only chriatain about God, God is not for a religion but for all..

You are only trying to justify your action

If you don't believe God, Fine. Keep it to yourself

But no ! You are here ranting , looking for others to mislead. Smh

ElidaxZiel:


All her argument wont still change anytime ! it just a waste of timetime, God created the brain, stop acting smarter.

And. XxsabrinaxX
She keep quoting science, as if she was there when they perform experiment

All the blabbing, is just the piece of info you gather from the internet

It all still don't make sense, why should you be asking only chriatain about God, God is not for a religion but for all..

You are only trying to justify your action

If you don't believe God, Fine. Keep it to yourself

But no ! You are here ranting , looking for others to mislead. Smh

LLEH SI EREH

XxSabrinaxX:

The only thing atheists have in common is their rejection of any religion because of the lack of credible, objectifiable, verifiable evidence. Maybe a deity exists, but there's no way to know for certain. I see no evidence for you theists to go ahead and name these gods and start making up fairy tales. Check out deism, a less arrogant worldview in my opinion
PS You can't fear what does not exist. Hence "God phobia" is not a term for me

You said maybe a deity exists, but there's no way to know for certain. This statement shows that you aren't truly the atheist you think you are. Maybe the idea of being termed an atheist sounds "romantic" to you or something.

If I were you I'd prefer the label "seeker". From your initial questions, you could be mistaken for a seeker.

I could multiply those questions of yours by multiples of a thousand, yet I don't see myself as an atheist.

I keep asking atheists, can you honestly look at yourself, comprehend the wonder of the human being and honestly believe that s/he is an accident of nature?

Don't you ask yourself what consciousness means? Do you honestly think you are on the same level with beasts that roam the jungle or wild plants in the forest?

How deep have you thought about what makes you conscious of your own self?

I made an example of you standing in front of a mirror and some shallow minded kids here couldn't grasp the significance of what I was saying.

What do you see when you look in the mirror. I mean, LOOK in the mirror? What do you think a dog or a cat or a bird sees when it looks in the mirror?

Where do you think self awareness or self consciousness " evolved" from?

I don't know if you are a proponent of the big bang. But if you are, have you asked yourself who banged whatever banged?

Look at the order if the cosmos. Or maybe I'm going to far. Google the wonders if the human eye. Read everything you can about it, the photo-receptirs, the rods and cones etc and come back and tell that you do not recognize an intelligent design when you see one.

Do you think it was accidental that we just happened to be on a planet that actually has an abundance of oxygen and hydrogen to support intelligent life?

That we cannot see the Divine doesn't mean that the Divine doesn't exist.

That our minds cannot comprehend how the Divine can come to be doesn't mean that He doesn't exist.

In the year 32BC could the human mind have comprehended that you could hold a device small enough to fit in your pouch and be able to communicate with someone a thousand kilometers away from you? Even see the person as he is talking to you on that device?

Had you told someone that in 30BC, they'd probably have locked you up for insanity.

Think about this, how do you think a created intelligence like ours can actually comprehend the intelligence that created it?

We may not be able to comprehend how it is possible that God exists but our own existence is a pointer to His own existence.

Forget that crap about man evolving from tadpole bullcrap. Where did the tadpoles come from?

Till today, scientists are still looking for the missing link between the ape and man to support Darwin's theory that man evolved from apes.

You'd imagine that if men evolved from apes, why do we still have apes around.

Seek. And don't stop searching for the Truth. That was how great philosophers like Plato and Aristotle came to be.

We have an intelligent mind that could never have evolved from a non intelligent matter.

Instead of insulting the Intelligence behind our own existence, why don't we focus on using our intelligence to discover more about the Intelligence behind our own intelligent design.

Most Atheists are mostly God-haters even if they keep denying that. That's why you see them outside city hall in the winters fighting mangers and cribs.

If you don't believe in the existence of God why bully Christians then? You'd expect them to just move on with their lives, right and maybe snigger at you when you talk about God. But no. Atheists are always up in arms against the idea of an intelligent Being because of the possibility that he might demand an account of stewardship after we exit this sphere of existence.

Be a seeker not an Atheist.

5thElement:


You said maybe a deity exists, but there's no way to know for certain. This statement shows that you aren't truly the atheist you think you are. Maybe the idea of being termed an atheist sounds "romantic" to you or something.

If I were you I'd prefer the label "seeker". From your initial questions, you could be mistaken for a seeker.

I could multiply those questions of yours by multiples of a thousand, yet I don't see myself as an atheist.

I keep asking atheists, can you honestly look at yourself, comprehend the wonder of the human being and honestly believe that s/he is an accident of nature?

Don't you ask yourself what consciousness means? Do you honestly think you are on the same level with beasts that roam the jungle or wild plants in the forest?

How deep have you thought about what makes you conscious of your own self?

I made an example of you standing in front of a mirror and some shallow minded kids here couldn't grasp the significance of what I was saying.

What do you see when you look in the mirror. I mean, LOOK in the mirror? What do you think a dog or a cat or a bird sees when it looks in the mirror?

Where do you think self awareness or self consciousness " evolved" from?

I don't know if you are a proponent of the big bang. But if you are, have you asked yourself who banged whatever banged?

Look at the order if the cosmos. Or maybe I'm going to far. Google the wonders if the human eye. Read everything you can about it, the photo-receptirs, the rods and cones etc and come back and tell that you do not recognize an intelligent design when you see one.

Do you think it was accidental that we just happened to be on a planet that actually has an abundance of oxygen and hydrogen to support intelligent life?

That we cannot see the Divine doesn't mean that the Divine doesn't exist.

That our minds cannot comprehend how the Divine can come to be doesn't mean that He doesn't exist.

In the year 32BC could the human mind have comprehended that you could hold a device small enough to fit in your pouch and be able to communicate with someone a thousand kilometers away from you? Even see the person as he is talking to you on that device?

Had you told someone that in 30BC, they'd probably have locked you up for insanity.

Think about this, how do you think a created intelligence like ours can actually comprehend the intelligence that created it?

We may not be able to comprehend how it is possible that God exists but our own existence is a pointer to His own existence.

Forget that crap about man evolving from tadpole bullcrap. Where did the tadpoles come from?

Till today, scientists are still looking for the missing link between the ape and man to support Darwin's theory that man evolved from apes.

You'd imagine that if men evolved from apes, why do we still have apes around.

Seek. And don't stop searching for the Truth. That was how great philosophers like Plato and Aristotle came to be.

We have an intelligent mind that could never have evolved from a non intelligent matter.

Instead of insulting the Intelligence behind our own existence, why don't we focus on using our intelligence to discover more about the Intelligence behind our own intelligent design.

Most Atheists are mostly God-haters even if they keep denying that. That's why you see them outside city hall in the winters fighting mangers and cribs.

If you don't believe in the existence of God why bully Christians then? You'd expect them to just move on with their lives, right and maybe snigger at you when you talk about God. But no. Atheists are always up in arms against the idea of an intelligent Being because of the possibility that he might demand an account of stewardship after we exit this sphere of existence.

Be a seeker not an Atheist.

When you christians stop proselytizing, stop trying to force your religion down our throats in the name of evangelism, then we can leave you alone. Most atheists would be quite happy to leave the religious alone as soon as religions stop using their privileged position in society to interfere with other people’s basic human rights. . By the way, I don't always objectively call myself an atheist, I'm more in the Gnostic Atheist camp

ElidaxZiel:


All her argument wont still change anytime ! it just a waste of timetime, God created the brain, stop acting smarter.

And. XxsabrinaxX
She keep quoting science, as if she was there when they perform experiment

All the blabbing, is just the piece of info you gather from the internet

It all still don't make sense, why should you be asking only chriatain about God, God is not for a religion but for all..

You are only trying to justify your action

If you don't believe God, Fine. Keep it to yourself

But no ! You are here ranting , looking for others to mislead. Smh

And you keep quoting the bible as if you were there when Moses was talking to the burning bush. SMDH, shut up honestly

HellVictorinho:

Nice performance, Sabrine.
I know you will always be ready for them.
Hell is always ready to applaud you.

LOL. The can hate me all they want. Doesn't mean shit . I've heard worse things said about me from better people

XxSabrinaxX:

LOL. The can hate me all they want. Doesn't mean shit . I've heard worse things said about me from better people

Its a defence mechanism. To put down atheists when they discover they don't have the answers.

XxSabrinaxX:

LOL. The can hate me all they want. Doesn't mean shit . I've heard worse things said about me from better people

lmao human always changing from one point of view to another

Once a sensible Christian, now an irrational atheist

Very soon. When convinced, become a Christian again

Begin to regret been an atheist

That is how human as always been

So aint gonna take you serious

You keep deceiving yourself for now

XxSabrinaxX:

LOL. The can hate me all they want. Doesn't mean shit . I've heard worse things said about me from better people

lmao human always changing from one point of view to another

Once a sensible Christian, now an irrational atheist

Very soon. When convinced, become a Christian again

Begin to regret been an atheist

That is how human as always been

So aint gonna take you serious

You keep deceiving yourself for now.

XxSabrinaxX:

When you christians stop proselytizing, stop trying to force your religion down our throats in the name of evangelism, then we can leave you alone. Most atheists would be quite happy to leave the religious alone as soon as religions stop using their privileged position in society to interfere with other people’s basic human rights.

TRUE Christians aren't scared of REASONING with anybody, and we're not INTERFERING with other people's basic human rights in anyway!
Jesus sent His followers in pairs to come and pay you a visit in your homes, greet you normally, discuss with you about certain problems that's hindering our peace and security and what could be the lasting solution to these problems!
Of course any normal intellectual will gladly welcome that. But it's totally absurd when you on your TV to entertain yourself and the next thing is religion religion religion as if we shouldn't have time for other things.
So many things are supposed to be well organized and arranged for the society to thrive,and that shouldn't be intercepted or influenced by any religious activity of any sort. No religious activity should cause unwarranted noise disturbing the peace in our neighborhood,so preaching in streets,malls or buses is UNCHRISTIAN.
Please that's what Jesus taught His followers,i'm sure by now you'll start realising that what you've been practicing all these while is totally out of TRUE Christianity!Matthew 12:19

ElidaxZiel:
lmao human always changing from one point of view to another

Once a sensible Christian, now an irrational atheist

Very soon. When convinced, become a Christian again

Begin to regret been an atheist

That is how human as always been

So aint gonna take you serious

You keep deceiving yourself for now.

Then why you keep replying to me though? with your dumbass . Hold this L, loser
[img]https://media1./images/33efefe97c9f4a4246c0b0fbe8db3143/tenor.gif[/img]
And you had to quote me twice, bitch

TATIME:
TRUE Christians aren't scared of REASONING with anybody, and we're not INTERFERING with other people's basic human rights in anyway!
Jesus sent His followers in pairs to come and pay you a visit in your homes, greet you normally, discuss with you about certain problems that's hindering our peace and security and what could be the lasting solution to these problems!
Of course any normal intellectual will gladly welcome that. But it's totally absurd when you on your TV to entertain yourself and the next thing is religion religion religion as if we shouldn't have time for other things.
So many things are supposed to be well organized and arranged for the society to thrive,and that shouldn't be intercepted or influenced by any religious activity of any sort. No religious activity should cause unwarranted noise disturbing the peace in our neighborhood,so preaching in streets,malls or buses is UNCHRISTIAN.
Please that's what Jesus taught His followers,i'm sure by now you'll start realising that what you've been practicing all these while is totally out of TRUE Christianity!Matthew 12:19

That's what you think!
A religion that fosters or encourages hatred towards, well, any group… That is damaging to society.
A religion that suppresses the development of its members such that they cannot interact properly with people outside the religion… That is damaging to society.
"Religions" that exist solely to bring money and/or fame to its founders and leaders… That is damaging to society.
Religions that deny proven facts and realities in favour of beliefs, refusing to make any accommodations because it goes against "tradition"… That is damaging to society.
All these religions I've mentioned exist. Many have existed for centuries or longer. They have molded our society and cultures. They have HELD US BACK.
Note that beliefs themselves are not the issue. It's the enforcement of beliefs by religions where problems in that regard arise. Do any deities exist? NO ONE is sure. You can believe so, and that's fine. But telling me I'm going to Hell because I don't have the same beliefs?
That's damaging.

XxSabrinaxX:

Then why you keep replying to me though? with your dumbass . Hold this L, loser
[img]https://media1./images/33efefe97c9f4a4246c0b0fbe8db3143/tenor.gif[/img]
And you had to quote me twice, bitch

Lol, you are right tho, sometimes we just need to leave mad people to their madness.

The way Jesus commissioned and organized Christianity is the best that any sane individual could think of.
*We're living together as neighbors.
*We can't isolate ourselves from one another.
*Problems will surface since we think differently.
*Our environment need to be kept tidy and maintained.
*Taking good care of our young ones who will eventually becomes adults tomorrow.
Well all these and many more should be topics for discuss when we're idle so that we can start working on our resolution later for the benefit of one and all. That's the purpose of Christianity!
NOT just gathering crowds for NO reasonable purpose,than saying "we want to worship"!

ElidaxZiel:


Lol, you are right tho, sometimes we just need to leave mad people to their madness.

Then stop replying! . Dumbass doesn't know the difference between ignoring someone and talking to someone . Get your sorry braindead ass out of here, dumb sh!t

JasonScoolari:
Good questions but to be sincere, no pastor can come up with the answers.

Jason come on give it a shot,we won't burst ur bubble too eagerly

ElidaxZiel:


And. XxsabrinaxX
She keep quoting science, as if she was there when they perform experiment

Bro. you literally believe in talking snakes! How do you feel?

XxSabrinaxX:

When you christians stop proselytizing, stop trying to force your religion down our throats in the name of evangelism, then we can leave you alone. Most atheists would be quite happy to leave the religious alone as soon as religions stop using their privileged position in society to interfere with other people’s basic human rights.

Thank you for telling me I just wasted my precious time typing all of that. I guess you aren't really interested in finding out the truth as much as holding to your preconceptions.

Atheists think Christians are close minded. Thats a laugh when i consider the close mindedness of atheists. I guess they haven't encountered themselves.

Besides I didn't tell you I was a Christian. Did I?

Anyway, I respect your right to hold fast to your opinion. I'm sure you won't mind according me and others who hold religious views ours too.

Have a good one.

Earthbound:

It's called having faith and it's not tied to Christians and Muslims alone. My perception is that there's a creator who put everything in place. I'm don't agree with the school of thought that everything happened and happens by chance. This is a lie. If Dinosaurs still existed, what would be the fate of the human race? Nothing happens by chance. One of the reasons why religions still sell is because there hasn't been a global extraterrestrial contact.

It is good u say "ur perception",but the universe doesn't care about ur perception,sorry if that sounds harsh,it doesn't care about mine too nor about the young girl who goes to school only to come back and find her parents killed by an earthquake,when u look at the bigger picture,there is no difference between a human being killed by an accident and an ant smashed under your feet ,if you know just how big and complex the universe is you would understand that if actually there is something out there that influenced its coming into exustence then it wouldn't make sense that it spent its time worrying about some things as infinitesimal as human beings,that is if it actually worries or have concerns,life is easier and less complex when u don't involve all these supernatural or divine stuff,just live ur life according to the law,do good unto others,work hard and be happy,why do u need to involve a supernatural being or whatever ?,to help u find " favour" and maybe give u some advantages over others ?

5thElement:


Thank you for telling me I just wasted my precious time typing all of that. I guess you aren't really interested in finding out the truth as much as holding to your preconceptions.

Atheists think Christians are close minded. Thats a laugh when i consider the close mindedness of atheists. I guess they haven't encountered themselves.

Besides I didn't tell you I was a Christian. Did I?

Anyway, I respect your right to hold fast to your opinion. I'm sure you won't mind according me and others who hold religious views ours too.

Have a good one.

Yes, you did. I'm already exchanging essays with another theist in this thread so you're really not that important to me. I can't split myself into two
PS The difference between an atheist and a theist? You can change an atheist's mind with the right evidence. Theists reject any form of criticsm for their religions. So don't even open your mouth and talk to me about "closemindedness"

XxSabrinaxX:

That's what you think!
A religion that fosters or encourages hatred towards, well, any group… That is damaging to society.
A religion that suppresses the development of its members such that they cannot interact properly with people outside the religion… That is damaging to society.
"Religions" that exist solely to bring money and/or fame to its founders and leaders… That is damaging to society.
Religions that deny proven facts and realities in favour of beliefs, refusing to make any accommodations because it goes against "tradition"… That is damaging to society.
All these religions I've mentioned exist. Many have existed for centuries or longer. They have molded our society and cultures. They have HELD US BACK.
Note that beliefs themselves are not the issue. It's the enforcement of beliefs by religions where problems in that regard arise. Do any deities exist? NO ONE is sure. You can believe so, and that's fine. But telling me I'm going to Hell because I don't have the same beliefs?
That's damaging.

All you've mentioned above is absolutely TRUE and that's exactly what TRUE Christianity teaches. Any religion found guilty of ANY of what you've listed above is NOT a Christian group!
True Christians are saying exactly what you're saying, but it's a pity it's the voice of the misinformed churchgoers that's most heard since they're on your TV screens,shouting in your streets, using megaphones outside their worship centers and seen in newspapers!

LMAO!! XxSabrinaxX is just singlehandedly owning all these religious clowns on this thread .

XxSabrinaxX:

LOL. The can hate me all they want. Doesn't mean shit . I've heard worse things said about me from better people

Hell knows better.
He doesn't give a damn about such haters.
You can rely on him for more praises.
As he enjoys the display of your blessings.

TATIME:
All you've mentioned above is absolutely TRUE and that's exactly what TRUE Christianity teaches. Any religion found guilty of ANY of what you've listed above is NOT a Christian group!
True Christians are saying exactly what you're saying, but it's a pity it's the voice of the misinformed churchgoers that's most heard since they're on your TV screens,shouting in your streets, using megaphones outside their worship centers and seen in newspapers!

Actually, the two main religions I was thinking of while typing what I was typing were Christianity and Islam. Both are guilty of all the things I mentioned. And if I may ask, what's the difference between TRUE christianity and christianity?

TheArranger:
LMAO!! XxSabrinaxX is just singlehandedly owning all these religious clowns on this thread .

As in . How can 1 vs many be this landslided in favour of 1?