buzugee:

you also have to remember that tunisia, morocco and egypt back then were black countries. what you see today in those regions is a mixture of whites slaves and africans and infused with arabs who conquered from the north. hence a bunch of mixed breeds.

Yes, but this mixing has been going on for a while. Since the days of the Phoenician (Modern Day Lebanon) sailors from the Levant. Remember the greatness of Carthage? That city was founded by Phoenician settlers. Or how about Hanibal Barca marched his elephants over the Alps. This man provided nightmares to Romans.

North Africa has been home to powerful empires. The Numidian Empire was very strong.

Most of North Africa is not even Arab. They just call themselves Arab. In fact, most of them are of Berber descent. They just lost their ability to speak their native language, due to the Arab conquest. And the Berbers are indigenous to North Africa.

First of there is nothing "bullschitty" about Afro.centricity. However supremacist views are the issue. Centric ideas pertain to someone's views or lifestyle revolving around one thing. There is nothing wrong with keeping Mama Africa in one's mind but keep the facts in mind too.

@Chyz what I am saying is blacks have ventured outside of Africa as far as the Pacific Islands (which is evident in the features and African dialects spoken by the majority of the inhabitants) and even South America. I am saying it is true that we have invented and taught Europeans, Asians and Mid. Easterns but it is NOT true that we "ruled the world". It was never in our nature nor our intention to. Simple.

@Buzu the Sphinx was DEFINITELY a black man. There is a documentary on youtube, where this white man was explaining how by using technology, art and basic common sense and looking at the features (high cheek bones, protruding lower jaw) that it was a black man. he even had an animation of what he believed the sphinx looked like and it apparently matched the features of the son of the first or second pharoah (i may have gotten that last part wrong but it was created in EARLY Egypt). Some scholars believe The Sphinx was modeled by someone of West African descent!

And Egypt is definitely, as is all of North Africa, a plain example of white enslavement by blacks. It was written in the form of hieroglyphs and stamped in the form of biracial Africans. The dna of the average Arab/Mediterranean is as mixed up as "latinos".

I consider myself an Afro-Centric individual. And there is nothing wrong with being Afro-Centric. I have encountered many Africans/Blacks who are Euro-Centric though. They believed everything was invented in Europe, but that is not true. We Africans had our own civilizations. Our own cultures and our own histories. This is a fact.

Black Africans did rule some parts of Europe though. We once ruled Spain, in which we occasionally made incursions into France. Also, blacks ruled Sicily for some time as well. People do not acknowledge this fact.

By black ruled Europe you are not talking about Hannibal are you? PLEASE tell me you are not! lol. Places like Tunisia and Morocco at one point were Italian (At the time known as Rome) territories and yes there are historical accounts of Egyptians (obviously) and even central and north western Africans by origin who took over their African territories. But infiltrated Europe, really? Well Spain yes that is true. Even the Moors were sucessful at overtaking Spain as it was easy access, but France?

MzDarkSkin:

By black ruled Europe you are not talking about Hannibal are you? PLEASE tell me you are not! lol. Places like Tunisia and Morocco at one point were Italian (At the time known as Rome) territories and yes there are historical accounts of Egyptians (obviously) and even central and north western Africans by origin who took over their African territories. But infiltrated Europe, really? Well Spain yes that is true. Even the Moors were sucessful at overtaking Spain as it was easy access, but France?

Must we always go back and forth. I know Hannibal Barca was the descendants of Phoenicians. However, he most likely had African blood running through his veins as well. You do not think there wasn't any mixing in Ancient Carthage? Numidia wasn't far. There was trade, and I am pretty sure that the Phoenician settlers mixed with the indigenous Africans, just like the Lebanese are doing today in Nigeria and Ghana.

Tunisia and Morocco were Roman Provinces. It doesn't make them Italian. The Berbers were still living in these provinces. If we used your reasoning, Greece, Egypt, Anatolia, Judea should be Italian as well? No, the Romans (Italians) were just administering these conquered provinces.

And yes, the Moors reached France. However, they were defeated by Charles Martel, also known as "The Hammer" and an ancestor Charlemagne. If it wasn't for the Franks, the Moors would have conquered Western Europe.

LOL i said Italian to let "non history freaks like myself" know what I am referring to. And I never said they were "Italian" I sad they were "Italian territories". Is Iran NOT present day Mesopotamia? If I decided to say Iran instead of Meso. I would still be correct. Well same for Italy/Rome. Anyway Hannibal having black in him may be true but he was not fighting for African liberation or anything African at all. Even though there was mixing within the races, black men were despised/envied in the Mediterranean. Some of the Ancient Arab world's best warriors were the product of an African mother and a foreign father, rarely would they declare themselves African due to the bad blood (which some times makes me wonder if slavery (trans-Atlantic) was direct retaliation of Africa's success.) and it trickles down to present day where you may go to Afghanistan or Iraq and see someone who is obviously black in features who would cry a river worth of tears if called black. So my point is no matter how much we refer to these "great black men" who ventured to Europe, were more than likely exiles who got their hands dirty and ended up selling each other out to be part of something. The REAL ancient African heroes were still in Africa.

Most of the "pure" black warriors who fought in the Greek and Roman armies were fighting to defend their position as civilians/citizens there. Its like the pre-historic version of the black Americans who fought during the American Civil War, former slaves fighting for their masters or fighting against the instution. Hannibal fought to rule. And more than likely had he succeeded he would have tried to not only conquer Europe but Africa too.

Which brings me back to my point that unless some of us were "bi-racial" and given clout/standards, we fought to defend ourselves not to conquer.

MzDarkSkin:

First of there is nothing "bullschitty" about Afro.centricity. However supremacist views are the issue. Centric ideas pertain to someone's views or lifestyle revolving around one thing. There is nothing wrong with keeping Mama Africa in one's mind but keep the facts in mind too.

@Chyz what I am saying is blacks have ventured outside of Africa as far as the Pacific Islands (which is evident in the features and African dialects spoken by the majority of the inhabitants) and even South America. I am saying it is true that we have invented and taught Europeans, Asians and Mid. Easterns but it is NOT true that we "ruled the world". It was never in our nature nor our intention to. Simple.

@Buzu the Sphinx was DEFINITELY a black man. There is a documentary on youtube, where this white man was explaining how by using technology, art and basic common sense and looking at the features (high cheek bones, protruding lower jaw) that it was a black man. he even had an animation of what he believed the sphinx looked like and it apparently matched the features of the son of the first or second pharoah (i may have gotten that last part wrong but it was created in EARLY Egypt). Some scholars believe The Sphinx was modeled by someone of West African descent!

And Egypt is definitely, as is all of North Africa, a plain example of white enslavement by blacks. It was written in the form of hieroglyphs and stamped in the form of biracial Africans. The dna of the average Arab/Mediterranean is as mixed up as "latinos".

Ochi_Agha:

Yes, but this mixing has been going on for a while. Since the days of the Phoenician (Modern Day Lebanon) sailors from the Levant. Remember the greatness of Carthage? That city was founded by Phoenician settlers. Or how about Hanibal Barca marched his elephants over the Alps. This man provided nightmares to Romans.

North Africa has been home to powerful empires. The Numidian Empire was very strong.

Most of North Africa is not even Arab. They just call themselves Arab. In fact, most of them are of Berber descent. They just lost their ability to speak their native language, due to the Arab conquest. And the Berbers are indigenous to North Africa.

'churchhhhhhhhhh' as they say in piimmp circles when someone drops knowledge 

MzDarkSkin:

LOL i said Italian to let "non history freaks like myself" know what I am referring to. And I never said they were "Italian" I sad they were "Italian territories". Is Iran NOT present day Mesopotamia? If I decided to say Iran instead of Meso. I would still be correct. Well same for Italy/Rome. Anyway Hannibal having black in him may be true but he was not fighting for African liberation or anything African at all. Even though there was mixing within the races, black men were despised/envied in the Mediterranean. Some of the Ancient Arab world's best warriors were the product of an African mother and a foreign father, rarely would they declare themselves African due to the bad blood (which some times makes me wonder if slavery (trans-Atlantic) was direct retaliation of Africa's success.) and it trickles down to present day where you may go to Afghanistan or Iraq and see someone who is obviously black in features who would cry a river worth of tears if called black.  So my point is no matter how much we refer to these "great black men" who ventured to Europe, were more than likely exiles who got their hands dirty and ended up selling each other out to be part of something. The REAL ancient African heroes were still in Africa.

Most of the "pure" black warriors who fought in the Greek and Roman armies were fighting to defend their position as civilians/citizens there. Its like  the pre-historic version of the black Americans who fought during the American Civil War, former slaves fighting for their masters or fighting against the instution. Hannibal fought to rule. And more than likely had he succeeded he would have tried to not only conquer Europe but Africa too.

Which brings me back to my point that unless some of us were "bi-racial" and given clout/standards, we fought to defend ourselves not to conquer.

Actually, Mesopotamia is found in Modern Day Iraq, not Iran.  Therefore, you would not be correct my dear. lol Mesopotamia includes the land between the Tigris River and the Euphrates River, which is found only in Iraq.

Hannibal Barca was fighting for the survival of his people. He knew Rome's expansionist tendencies. Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and the Romans wanted this area. That is why Hannibal Barca decided to bring the fight to Rome. So in a way, he was trying to keep Africa independent. Isn't Carthage a North AFRICAN empire?

The Moors knew they were Africans. This is what I am trying to tell you. To call someone a Moor was synonymous with being Black. Even Shakespeare when describing a black person called the woman a Moor. The Moors knew they were Africans. They even had problems with the Arabs, who they seen as getting the best land, when they all invaded Spain. However, the Moors regained control of Spain as the Ummuyad Caliphate collapsed. I will stand by position that the Moors were Black Africans who conquered parts of Europe.

And when you say "black," not all Africans have dark features. The Berbers who are indigenous to Africa are quite tanned. Just say that the people are Africans. Africans all across the continent come in different hues. I am tired of people acting like the Berbers are Arabs. They are African.

You should know that you are battling a "History Freak/Buff." I enjoy reading about the history of the world. Not just Africa. Even though I am Afrocentric, I still like reading about the cultural history of Europe, the Americas, the Middle East and the Far East. You better come correct when you debate me. lol

I am also waiting for you reply in the Foreign Affairs section concerning President Obama. Do not run, we have not finished our debate. I need to pick your brain some more.

The ignorance on this thread is appalling

Let me set a few things straight


"White" Berbers are indigenous to North Africa. They enslaved Europeans.

Moor does NOT equal "Sub-Saharan" (I dont get where people got that nonsense from. Pathetic American rubbish)

People from Sub-Saharan Africa did not rule Europe

The Berbers of North Africa did and they also owned European slaves

Look up the ethnic groups of North Africa like Kabyles, Riffs,


North Africa was never "black" (Infact what does the terms "white", "black" mean sef)

The ethnic groups that reside in North Africa are indigines of that place

sage,

You are correct in some instances and wrong in others. Yes, there are "White" Berbers. However, there are also "Black" Berbers living in North Africa. And the Moors who conquered Spain did have "Black" Moors amongst them.

Also, learn about the Almoravid Empire, which was a Berber Dynasty. The area included Southern Spain to all way in "Sub-Saharan" Africa. Even the Mandinka were included in this empire. Therefore, I am pretty sure that there were Mandinka warriors in Spain as well.

I shall provide you with a picture of a Moorish chief. What color does he look like?

Examples of Berbers include people like Zidane and Affely

North African ethnicities include Shilha, Kabyle, Shawiya, Riffs etc

Those people are indiginous to those areas

Nobody "stole" Egypt from anybody. Egyptians past and present are not similar in any way on earth to black  Americans who love to propagate this kind of trash neither are they similar in anyway to a Nigerian.


People love to peddle falsehood and its annoying


People from ancient places below the Sahara never ruled Europe.

North Africans enslaved Europeans by the millions and sold them in slave houses also

Ochi_Agha:

sage,

You are correct in some instances and wrong in others. There are "Black" Berbers living in North Africa. And the Moors who conquered Spain did have "Black" Moors amongst them.

I shall provide you with a picture of a Moorish chief. What color does he look like?

Tuaregs are one Berber ethnicity you can classify as "black" so he could easily be a Tuareg Berber

sage:

Tuaregs are one Berber ethnicity you can classify as "black" so he could easily be a Tuareg Berber

There are other Berber groups that can be considered "black." I am ready for this debate my brother. The Zenaga/Sanhaja tribe is a Berber tribe of southern Morocco, Mauritania and Senegal.

Here are some pictures of one of them:

The problem with this issue is that the Americans who especially like to propagate this nonsense go around looking for anybody that they think "has any black" in them and claim that the person is one of "them" ie their people.

The reality is that the average Tuareg past or present is not similar to a black American in any way imaginable. Neither Egyptians both past and present

The terms "white", "Black" are totally deceptive terms

Interesting thread.

sage,

Stay on task. I have given you some examples of "Black" Berbers. You are only reiterating what I have been saying. All Berber groups are indigenous to Africa. Some Berbers groups are light, while some Berbers are dark.

This can be found throughout the African continent. Africa is the cradle of mankind.

Here are some examples of "White" Berbers:

Kobojunkie:

[size=15pt]ROFLMAO!!! [/size]

and it is not even April fool oooh!

There is really not much one can do about the many CLAIMS made on this issue than to laugh . . .  WOW!! lol

i was expecting you to come up with something reasonable ,however,you chose your normal childish attitude.who are you to disclaim history ?

what's funny here ? ode

^^ mamud, what history? The revisions told by some and swallowed apparent by many on here all out of some inferiority complex they seem to have ? I am sorry, but I find it really amusing that people can provide revisions as facts, especially in this day and age when the truth is just a few clicks away.ROFLMAO!!

Even though North Africa is considered Arab by many, most of these people actually of Berber descent. They just cannot speak the Berber languages, because the Arab language is very dominant. And you are often stigmatized for being a Berber. But, the Berbers are native to this region.

Here is a modern day map of the Berber languages that are spoken now in North Africa.

Ochi_Agha:

There are other Berber groups that can be considered "black." I am ready for this debate my brother. The Zenaga/Sanhaja tribe is a Berber tribe of southern Morocco, Mauritania and Senegal.

Here are some pictures of one of them:

The Zenaga too. My point is that uninformed Americans who propagate nonsense about North Africa dont have any idea what they are talking about.

Indigenous people of North Africa range from Riffs to Tuaregs in the Sahel.

The Riffs can be called "white" and the Zenaga "black" but the reality is that when a Zenaga joins a Riff to raid Europe, he is in the company of his people ie his fellow Berbers.

it doesnt mean that their "people" ruled Europe

Kobojunkie:

^^ mamud, what history? The revisions told by some and swallowed apparent by many on here all out of some inferiority complex they seem to have ? ROFLMAO!!

which one that civilization started from egypt or what ?

can't you come up with something reasonable ? as in like a normal human being think !

Ochi_Agha:

Even though North Africa is considered Arab by many, most of these people actually of Berber descent. They just cannot speak the Berber languages, because the Arab language is very dominant. And you are often stigmatized for being a Berber. But, the Berbers are native to this region.

Here is a modern day map of the Berber languages that are spoken now in North Africa.

You are 100% correct

Il soon type up my response to you in a few minutes. I was attacking the headline of this thread which is misleading

sage:

The Riffs can be called "white" and the Zenaga "black" but the reality is that when a Zenaga joins a Riff to raid Europe, he is in the company of his people ie his fellow Berbers.

it doesnt mean that their "people" ruled Europe

True, but we are discussing when Africans ruled Europe. Maybe the "Black" should be taken out of the subject, because it can be misleading.

Would you be ok with "When Africans Ruled in Europe?"

The fact in the matter is that there were "Black" Africans in Spain. People cannot deny that. They were not slaves, they were warriors and administrators. Not all of them were "Black" in the sense, but there were still present.

How come the word "Moor" in Europe has been synonymous with black? Even the ancient European travelers who went to North Africa, described some Africans as having dark wooly hair and skin that looked like bronze.

Race is a social construct and more of a modern day phenomenon. It can be traced to Charles Darwin. The ancients were not stuck on race.

Ochi_Agha:

True, but we are discussing when Africans ruled Europe. Maybe the "Black" should be taken out of the subject, because it can be misleading.

Would you be ok with "When Africans Ruled in Europe?"

The fact in the matter is that there were "Black" Africans in Spain. People cannot deny that. They were not slaves, they were warriors and administrators. Not all of them were "Black" in the sense, but there were still present.

How come the word "Moor" in Europe has been synonymous with black? Even the ancient European travelers who went to North Africa, described some Africans as having dark wooly hair and skin that looked like bronze.

Race is a social construct and more of a modern day phenomenon. It can be traced to Charles Darwin. The ancients were not stuck on race.

very very very true.

I

sage, you say 'very very very true', but your position is at variance with much of what Ochi_Agha is saying.

Also, you are completely wrong in your claim that ''sub-saharan'' Africans have no ancestral links to Nile Valley Civilization, and thus, their descendant African-American brethren have no claim to ancient Egypt.

The evidence of Nile Valley ancestry of many West African groups is overwhelming and indisputable. I think you need to read a lot more widely, with more of an open mind.

I suggest you start with Olumide Lucas' The Religion of the Yorubas and Cheikh Anta Diop's African Origin of Civilization, Myth or Reality?

@Ochi

You completely correct in your assertions.The Berbers range from very light to dark. My point is that "race" is a mordern day assertion so are terms like "black" and "white". They are very deceptive term when you try to use them to describe an Ancient society. Berbers used to intermarry with each other so a lot of the "white" Berber societies like Ancient Morrocco actually had many many "black" Kings

The problem is that when a male Royal who is a Riff marries a fellow Berber like a Tuareg lady, their son would become king over Riffs in that society. It would be misleading for a Nigerian to say that it is his "People" who ruled Morrocco however because that half="black" King would see Riffs as his people ahead of say Igbos for example. He would identify with the "white" Riffs ahead of Zuus in S/A


SO you are completely correct in what you are sayino

My points are as follows

It is completely correct to say that when Berbers raided Europe, Berbers from the various hues participated in it including the dark ones.

Its completely correct to say that dark Berbers were also part of those who enslaved Europeans by the millions and sold them off in slave houses in North Africa

It is completely correct to say that darker skinned Berbers have been kings and administrators over lighter skinned ones (ie the "white" ones)



However it is outright falsehood to suggest that some "white" people stole North Africa from your "people". The "White " North Africans are indiginous to that area. They are Africans regardless of their light(white) skin colour.

It is misleading to put up titles like the one on this thread. It futhers falsehood of epic proportions

anyone who has time has to go through this thread. it is extremely enlightening. look out for the user NOBI. he is extremely intelligent. the most intelligent person i have come across http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/T7MBFVN8633AINMUL

also read this http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/30/009.html

Why do people think that the word Africa = "black"

there is actually no such thing as a "black" race or "white" race either. Both terms are socially constructed nonsense that cropped up recently


The ancient world was not stuck on race and neither was their solidarity by "race"

A half "black" king of Ancient Morrocco would always consider "white" Berbers his people ahead of anybody from ancient Congo or Kenya


It would be very misleading to suggest that because the ancient rulers of "white" berbers might be half Tuareg, Zenaga etc, that it is a sign of when "our people" ruled Morrocco

That would be an outright propagation of falsehood

buzugee:

anyone who has time has to go through this thread. it is extremely enlightening. look out for the user NOBI. he is extremely intelligent. the most intelligent person i have come across http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/T7MBFVN8633AINMUL

also read this http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/30/009.html

Your assertion that Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria were "black" countries is falsehood. "White" North Africans are African indigines

sage:

My points are as follows

It is completely correct to say that when Berbers raided Europe, Berbers from the various hues participated in it including the dark ones.

Its completely correct to say that dark Berbers were also part of those who enslaved Europeans by the millions and sold them off in slave houses in North Africa

It is completely correct to say that darker skinned Berbers have been kings and administrators over lighter skinned ones (ie the "white" ones)



However it is outright falsehood to suggest that some "white" people stole North Africa from your "people". The "White " North Africans are indiginous to that area. They are Africans regardless of their light(white) skin colour.

It is misleading to put up titles like the one on this thread. It futhers falsehood of epic proportions

i think you need to go through those links i posted. the white north africans are not indigenous to africa.