buzugee:

i think you need to go through those links i posted. the white north africans are not indigenous to africa.

YES they are. Their genetics tell its own story. The white North Africans are very very indiginous to Africa.




N/B

For your sanity keep away from forums like topix. A lot of crazies there

sage:

Your assertion that Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria were "black" countries is falsehood. "White" North Africans are African indigines

you are lacking in history knowledge bruh. what you see in north africa today is a combination of white slaves, black masters and arab invasion from the north. plain and simple. pick up a book sir and do your research

sage:

@Ochi

You completely correct in your assertions.The Berbers range from very light to dark. My point is that "race" is a mordern day assertion so are terms like "black" and "white". They are very deceptive term when you try to use them to describe an Ancient society. Berbers used to intermarry with each other so a lot of the "white" Berber societies like Ancient Morrocco actually had many many "black" Kings

The problem is that when a male Royal who is a Riff marries a fellow Berber like a Tuareg lady, their son would become king over Riffs in that society. It would be misleading for a Nigerian to say that it is his "People" who ruled Morrocco however because that half="black" King would see Riffs as his people ahead of say Igbos for example. He would identify with the "white" Riffs ahead of Zuus in S/A


SO you are completely correct in what you are sayino

My brother, I am really enjoying this debate. This type of discussion is what Nairaland needs. Not the usual filth that pollute this discussion board. I am not stuck on the term "Black Africa," North Africa, Nubians etc. I see Africa as one continuous continent. I am a Pan-Africanist of the highest order. My belief is to give praise to all African cultures, no matter where they are located on the continent.

If Europeans as far as Norway can give praise to Ancient Greece and Rome, then I should be able to give praise to our ancient kingdoms. Don't you think I should have the ability to do so?

Africa for far too long has been separated by Europeans. I do not believe in this "Sub-Saharan" African term. I believe in one united continent. I also dislike, how many North Africans see themselves not as Africans, but as Arabs. These people have been brainwashed into hating their African roots. Not all of them are Arabs, they are of Berber descent. The true indigenous people of North Africa.

buzugee:

you are lacking in history knowledge bruh. what you see in north africa today is a combination of white slaves, black masters and arab invasion from the north. plain and simple. pick up a book sir and do your research

Falsehood into 1,000,000 places

This is a lie of epic proportions


White Berbers share the same E Haplotype as other  Africans are are joined to other Africans as part of PN2 cluster

The North Africans are NOT Europeans at all genetically

http://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/images/menes.jpg

http://2.bp..com/_XxRJollAgLQ/SyaCL0kaa4I/AAAAAAAAAUk/S65EvCUx5PQ/s1600-h/Queen_Tiye.jpg

those are the inhabitants of north africa in 2000 BC

sage:

Falsehood into 1,000,000 places

This is a lie of epic proportions


White Berbers share the same E Haplotype as other  Africans are are joined to other Africans as part of PN2 cluster

The North Africans are NOT Europeans at all genetically

YOU AINT SAYING NOTHING MUCH WITH THIS HERE STATEMENT. what this only proves is that they have mixed and intermarried over the years after their invasion and habitation in north africa. even if you look at north america you will discover that most of the people who have lived there for over 200 years have black, white and native ancestry. mutts

I knew this discussion would turn to Ancient Kemet (Egypt).

Let the Egyptians speak for themselves.

The first man is an Ancient Libyan (Berber), the second man is a Nubian (Sudan), the third man is Asiatic (Judea, Hittite, Assyrian etc), and finally the fourth man is an Egyptian.

This man has brown skin. The color of this man's skin resembles my own.

Where did people get this idea that White berbers are descendants of European slaves from?

Berber genetics is very different from that of Europeans. People just read crap and regurgitate it


White Africans are just as African as the rest.



Nature does not observe colour lines. North African genetics tells its own story. They have very little European admixture and do not share European Haplotypes. Their haplotype is indigenous to the African continent

Ochi_Agha:

My brother, I am really enjoying this debate. This type of discussion is what Nairaland needs. Not the usual filth that pollute this discussion board. I am not stuck on the term "Black Africa," North Africa, Nubians etc. I see Africa as one continuous continent. I am a Pan-Africanist of the highest order. My belief is to give praise to all African cultures, no matter where they are located on the continent.

If Europeans as far as Norway can give praise to Ancient Greece and Rome, then I should be able to give praise to our ancient kingdoms. Don't you think I should have the ability to do so?

Africa for far too long has been separated by Europeans. I do not believe in this "Sub-Saharan" African term. I believe in one united continent. I also dislike, how many North Africans see themselves not as Africans, but as Arabs. These people have been brainwashed into hating their African roots. Not all of them are Arabs, they are of Berber descent. The true indigenous people of North Africa.

Nwanne I agree 100 percent

There is no such thing like "Sub-saharan" Africa. We are all Africans including the ones in the North. Europeans brought that division

sage,

Some Berbers did have European slaves. The Barbary Pirates were well known to be the scourge of the Mediterranean

The Barbary Coast, which extends from Morocco through modern Libya, was home to a large slaving industry from about 1500 to 1800. The great slaving capitals were Salé in Morocco, Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli, and for most of this period, European navies were too weak to put up resistance to these well armed navies from the North African coast.

Even the U.S. Marine anthem talks about going to North Africa and fighting the menace of slavery.  The line "To the shores of Tripoli" refers to the First Barbary War, and specifically the Battle of Derne in 1805. The Americans went to war against the Barbary states, because American merchant ships were being attacked and the people sold into slavery in North Africa.

Pls let us keep Egypt out of this debate

This issue is dealing with Berber raids into Europe not Egypt


Im Shocked that some people dont know that White Berbers share the indigenous African haplotype as other Africans


Some people actually think they are descendants of European slaves Incredible

Berbers had European slaves (they enslaved about 1.5 million of them and emptied European villages)

But my problem is that some people think that white Berbers are a result of European slaves?


Jesus Christ

Ochi_Agha:

sage,

Some Berbers did have European slaves. The Barbary Pirates were well known to be the scourge of the Mediterranean

The Barbary Coast, which extends from Morocco through modern Libya, was home to a large slaving industry from about 1500 to 1800. The great slaving capitals were Salé in Morocco, Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli, and for most of this period, European navies were too weak to put up resistance to these well armed navies from the North African coast.

Even the U.S. Marine anthem talks about going to North Africa and fighting the menace of slavery.  The line "To the shores of Tripoli" refers to the First Barbary War, and specifically the Battle of Derne in 1805. The Americans went to war against the Barbary states, because American merchant ships were being attacked and the people sold into slavery in North Africa.

Many people today dont know that Millions of Europeans were slaves on the African continent and sold in slave house auctions. berbers used to raid European villages from Spain to Ireland and cart away men, women and children as slaves and also sold some into slavery in the Middle East.


But what i dont understand is why somebody would think North Africans are descendants of that slave trade in the middle ages. Thats completely insane

North Africans are indigines of Africa and genetic studies prove that

In reality there is actually no such thing as a "black" man biologically speaking neither is their a "white" man

I reject European attempts to divide this continent into "Sub-Saharan" whatever

"Race" is a complete social construct. the same European who is trying to seperate the "white" Berbers from the rest of Africans is the same person who would have no problems whatsoever telling somebody that is 75% Irish genetically that he is "black but would also call a Berber, who is genetically African "white"

africa is indigenous to black africans. any other race you see in africa today is a result of invasion or slavery. why is that so hard to believe ? http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Africa  

stop buying into western indoctrination of trying to seperate north africa from 'black' africa because they cannot for the life of them fathom how the sphinx and all other huge developments in north africa came about when they were still in the caucus caves acting like savages. read books by african historians like cheik diop and george G M james. stop being a victim of white indoctrination.

if you read that link i posted you will see where it subtly mentions that nubians were the original inhabitants of north africa. then further down the line in comes the berbers, the semitic phoenicians, european greeks, romans, muslim arabs

buzugee:

africa is indigenous to black africans. any other race you see in africa today is a result of invasion of slavery. why is that so hard to believe ? http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Africa   

stop buying into western indoctrination of trying to seperate north africa from 'black' africa because they cannot for the life of them fathom how the sphinx and all other huge developments in north africa came about when they were still in the caucus caves acting like savages. read books by african historians like cheik diop and george G M james. stop being a victim of white indoctrination

Dude you are talking trash.

You dont know anything about genetics, humanity or North Africa for that matter

There is no such thing like "black" or "white" in genetics. Learn about what you are talking about before you keep propagating falsehood. There is no such thing like a "black" African genetically or biologically speaking and having "white" skin is not an indication of not being an indigene of the African continent

The primary reason I hate people who propagate lies like these is that it paints a false picture and creates false narratives and does not care about facts. The residents of North Africa have genetic markers that are indigenous to the African continent





Having dark skin and kinky hair does not mean you have anything to do with Africa either

sage:

Dude you are talking trash.

You dont know anything about genetics, humanity or North Africa for that matter

There is no such thing like "black" or "white" in genetics. Learn about what you are talking about before you keep propagating falsehood. There is no such thing like a "black" African genetically or biologically speaking and having "white" skin is not an indication of not being an indigene of the African continent

The primary reason I hate people who propagate lies like these is that it paints a false picture and creates false narratives

whether you choose to accept the fact or ignore it does not change the fact that it is true
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNE6BAmN4b8&feature=related keep being a victim of an indoctrination perpetrated to malign your humanity. thats your funeral.

buzugee:

whether you choose to accept the fact or ignore it does not change the fact that it is true
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNE6BAmN4b8&feature=related keep being a victim of an indoctrination perpetrated to malign your humanity. thats your funeral.

Stop listening to trash and accept pure concrete biological fact

All these silly people who start nonsense like Africa is for "black" Africans are verry funny

The term "black" is a meaningless term imposed by foreigners. There is no such thing like a "Black" African biologically

Genetics has a final say on this issue not some phoney fraudsters who dont know what they are talking about



I bet these fraudsters probably dont realize that not only are white skinned Berbers African indigines (as genetics has shown) but also that having dark skin and kinky hair does not mean you have anything whatsoever to do with Africa. I bet even you yourself have no idea. Somebody can have dark skin and kinky hair and not be genetically related to Africans and the white North Africans, despite their skin colour share indiginous African genetic markers

sage:

Stop listening to trash and accept pure concrete biological fact

All these silly people who start nonsense like Africa is for "black" Africans are verry funny

The term "black" is a meaningless term imposed by foreigners. There is no such thing like a "Black" African biologically

Genetics has a final say on this issue not some phoney fraudsters who dont know what they are talking about



I bet these fraudsters probably dont realize that not only are white skinned Berbers African indigines (as genetics has shown) but also that having dark skin and kinky hair does not mean you have anything whatsoever to do with Africa. I bet even you yourself have no idea. Somebody can have dark skin and kinky hair and not be genetically related to Africans and the white North Africans, despite their skin colour share indiginous African genetic markers

biological fact ?? you are truly a comedian. where you personally present when the genetic markers were being analyzed ? or was it a bunch of white people with their own agenda ?  fugazy negros like you stay subjugated.

believe it or not, humanity originated in africa. it was a huge land mass called gondwanaland. then due to erosion and attrition, gondwanaland started to crack up and drift into different pieces which then formed the different continents. all the africans then physically changed and adapted to their new environments over tens of thousands of years. a mutation, if you will. those who remained in africa did not mutate because that was the initial starting point. so whomever came back afterwards was already a different person. now dont get me wrong, i will love for the world to subscribe to the fact that we are all africans and all one, but unfortunately the world does not work like that and hence i have to fall in line with the rest of the prejudiced world. and therefore africa is originally black. ya dig ? that make sense enough for ya ?

People should stop putting emphasis on terms like "black", "white" etc. Modern science has exposed those terms as complete trash

There is no such thing as a "black" African in reality and like I said before and would say for the 100th time, skin colour does NOT indicate if you are connected to Africans at all.

You can have "white" skin and be an indiginous African and you can have dark skin and kinky hair and have no genetic connection to Africans at all

[b]The above is proven scientific fact

Does anybody want to challenge the above?/b][i][/i]

I deal with scientific facts not wishful thinking from write ups of fraudsters

buzugee:

biological fact ?? you are truly a comedian. where you personally present when the genetic markers were being analyzed ? or was it a bunch of white people with their own agenda ? fugazy negros like you stay subjugated.

believe it or not, humanity originated in africa. it was a huge land mass called gondwanaland. then due to erosion and attrition, gondwanaland started to crack up and drift into different pieces which then formed the different continents. all the africans then physically changed and adapted to their new environments over tens of thousands of years. a mutation, if you will. those who remained in africa did not mutate because that was the initial starting point. so whomever came back afterwards was already a different person. now dont get me wrong, i will love for the world to subscribe to the fact that we are all africans and all one, but unfortunately the world does not work like that and hence i have to fall in line with the rest of the prejudiced world. and therefore africa is originally black. ya dig ? that make sense enough for ya ?

Negro? . What is a 'Negro' if I might ask? . Is that some label you gave yourself or is that a label some "white" man with 'an agenda" gave you?

Where you not the one just saying that Berbers are descendants of the Berber slave trade

You dont know what you are talking about

@Buzu

Irrespective of our personal feelings, facts remain facts and we can not ignore facts when it does not suit our personal agenda.

The whole concept of "race" as you know it now is actually very recent

I think you are putting too much emphasis on tems like "white", "black"

But feelings and perceptions are not substitutes for concrete facts.

Facts are not dependent on North Africans chosing to identify as "Arabs" nor is it dependent on what we feel about a so-called "black" label

Genetics and biology tell their own concrete story and there is no such thing as a "Black" man genetically speaking, neither is their a "white" man

Now if you are making a social argument, then thats different

sage:

Negro? . What is a 'Negro' if I might ask? . Is that some label you gave yourself or is that a label some "white" man with 'an agenda" gave you?

Where you not the one just saying that Berbers are descendants of the Berber slave trade  

You dont know what you are talking about

i never mentioned anything about berbers. all i am telling you is that north africa was black for tens of thousands of years while the other continents had drifted away. the place was ALL black. further down the line when the initial africans had mutated in their respective locations ? then they came back to north africa because of its proximity to the breaking point of gondwanaland. so now you have people with different colors coming back to join the black people who live there. ya dig ? that make enough sense for ya ?  

buzugee:

i never mentioned anything about berbers. all i am telling you is that north africa was black for tens of thousands of years while the other continents had drifted away. the place was ALL black. further down the line when the initial africans had mutated in their respective locations ? then they came back to north africa because of its proximity to the breaking point of gondwanaland. so now you have people with different colors coming back to join the black people who live there. ya dig ? that make enough sense for ya ?

But there is this small stubborn thing called facts, Its very stubborn

If Berbers were European descendants, they would reflect European gene markers.

But as it stands, their haplogroup and genetic markers are all indiginous to Africa

The bad thing about facts is that you can flog it all day or even ignore it but it would remain-------:fact!

Facts are a stubborn child. Problem child infact

sage:

@Buzu

Irrespective of our personal feelings, facts remain facts and we can not ignore facts when it does not suit our personal agenda.

The whole concept of "race" as you know it now is actually very recent

I think you are putting too much emphasis on tems like "white", "black"

But feelings and perceptions are not substitutes for concrete facts.

Facts are not dependent on North Africans chosing to identify as "Arabs" nor is it dependent on what we feel about a so-called "black" label

Genetics and biology tell their own concrete story and there is no such thing as a "Black" man genetically speaking, neither is their a "white" man

Now if you are making a social argument, then thats different

bruv ? i know that we all are the same with different variations and mutations of the principal being. i know the concept of race is bullcrap. i know all this. but i did not create the rules. i am simply playing by the created rules. and by virtue of the created rules, i am telling you that the initial occupants of north africa were black before the drifting of gondwanaland, black for tens of thousands of years after gondwanaland but recently became multi-colored. so yes, the other people of color are invaders, if i may

sage:



But there is this small stubborn thing called facts,  Its very stubborn

If Berbers were European descendants, they would reflect European gene markers.

But as it stands, their haplogroup and genetic markers are all indiginous to Africa

The bad thing about facts is that you can flog it all day or even ignore it but it would remain-------:fact!

Facts are a stubborn child. Problem child infact

bruv, all those gene markers all trace back to the black race so this your point is mute. european haplogroups and genetic markers all trace back to africa as do berbers

@Buzu

If I might ask you this

Do you know anything about genetic distances among so called "black" Africans?

Do you know that dark skin and kinky hair are not an indication of beign related to so called "black" Africans?

I have a feeling you dont. You have been trying to conflate a recent social construct like "race" with biology and genetics

There is no such thing as a "black"African in genetics. Did you know that?

buzugee:

bruv, all those gene markers all trace back to the black race so this your point is mute. european haplogroups and genetic markers all trace back to africa as do berbers

Nah Bruv

All humans are related but my point remains that the Berbers are as African as anybody else. the reason for raising the issue of Haplotypes and genetic markers is to show you that irrespective of their "white" skin, they are as African as you and me and indigines of our continent.

There are groups on earth that share our "hair" and "skin colour" but are not even really related to Africans. They are the most genetically distant from Africans

sage:

@Buzu

If I might ask you this

Do you know anything about genetic distances among so called "black" Africans?

Do you know that that skin and kinky hair are not an indication of beign related to so called "black" Africans?

I have a feeling you dont. You have been trying to conflate a recent social construct like "race" with biology and genetics

There is no such thing as a "black"African in genetics. Did you know that?

what i know is that all human beings have the same genetic markers. does not matter what color your skin or hair is. that is why we can mate with each other and produce offsprings. this is why we cannot mate with dogs and have offsprings. because dogs have different genetic markers. so yes the topic of race is man-made but like i said i am simply going by todays definitions. now if i was having an argument with you about how all humans are the same ? then i suspect we will be on the same side but the topic of this thread is 'when black africans ruled in europe' hence i artificially create a demarcation based on the superficial (color )

sage:


Nah Bruv

All humans are related but my point remains that the Berbers are as African as anybody else. the reason for raising the issue of Haplotypes and genetic markers is to show you that irrespective of their "white" skin, they are as African as you and me and indigines of our continent.

There are groups on earth that share our "hair" and "skin colour" but are not even really related to Africans. They are the most genetically distant from Africans

ok i see that you fail to understand the gravity of what i have been saying so i will repeat it one more time and then i am done.
yes the berbers are as african as you and me, as are the white europeans, as are the japanese, as are the chinese. we are all africans. and yes they are indigenes of our continent as i am currently an indigene of the american continent 

buzugee:

what i know is that all human beings have the same genetic markers. does not matter what color your skin or hair is. that is why we can mate with each other and produce offsprings. this is why we cannot mate with dogs and have offsprings. because dogs have different genetic markers. so yes the topic of race is man-made but like i said i am simply going by todays definitions. now if i was having an argument with you about how all humans are the same ? then i suspect we will be on the same side but the topic of this thread is 'when black africans ruled in europe' hence i artificially create a demarcation based on the superficial (color )

But you cant do that if you want to engage in a factual discussion unless we just want to just waste our time engaging in fantasy and delusions. If we are going to tell the story of a place like North Africa we need to stick with facts.

The genetic markers of Europeans and Asians are NOT indiginous to the African continent.

White Berbers on the other hand are. Stop trying to suggest that white Berbers being indiginous to Africa is similar to Chinese or Europeans because it is factually incorrect

It is more correct to say that white Berbers are indiginous as Igbos or Yorubas are

Im tired of repeating myself so il just stop

but the fact still remains that the mutated white skin part of our african ancestry, further down the line rejoined our black skin brothers in north africa to create what you see in north africa today.  

sage:

But you cant do that if you want to engage in a factual discussion unless we just want to just waste our time engaging in fantasy and delusions. If we are going to tell the story of a place like North Africa we need to stick with facts.

The genetic markers of Europeans and Asians are NOT indiginous to the African continent.

White Berbers on the other hand are. Stop trying to suggest that white Berbers being indiginous to Africa is similar to Chinese or Europeans because it is factually incorrect

It is more correct to say that white Berbers are indiginous as Igbos or Yorubas are

Im tired of repeating myself so il just stop

yeah its best you stop because you are confusing yourself. any specie that can inter-breed will have the same genetic markers. so the genetic markers of europeans, asians and berbers are definitely indigenous to africa. now their may be a variation in how the C G T A U is arranged due to the different mutations brought on by acclamitizing to the different conditions they encountered in their dispersed new locations, but they are still the same genetic markers. its like comparing suya to pepper soup to fried meat. they differ due to their altered state but they are all made from the same meat

buzugee:

yeah its best you stop because you are confusing yourself. any specie that can inter-breed will have the same genetic markers. so the genetic markers of europeans, asians and berbers are definitely indigenous to africa. now their may be a variation in how the C G T A U is arranged due to the different mutations brought on by acclamitizing to the different conditions they encountered in their dispersed new locations, but they are still the same genetic markers. its like comparing suya to pepper soup to fried meat. they differ due to their altered state but they are all made from the same meat

You obviously dont know anything about haplogroups or genetics. They are population specific and the haplogroup of all Africans including white North Africans is similar to each other and indiginous to Africa but different from Europeans, Asians, Australasians etc and has nothing to do with interbreeding.

I see I am actually wasting my time though with somebody who does not know what he is talking about.

Adios