buzugee:

these similarities are all due to dietary and environmental reasons. if we all live in lagos, chances are we will suffer from the same level of sun, eat the same foods and be exposed to the same pollution. so people who co-habit together after a while tend to look like each other.

While that may true to an extent, it doesn't explain all the variations. It takes a much longer time frame than your Lagos example to cause changes that will 'penetrate' to the genetic level.

Besides, this environmental change doesn't remove the ability to distinguish between population groups based on their migratory progenitors. The base/core genetic make up of the progenitors/ancestors will likely be dominant above any environmentally induced changes.

What happened to Ochi_Agha? We were actually having a good discussion

Its really sad how this thread has turned out. I am the type that is keen on learning new stuff but this thread has gone downhill since then

We should try to make threads like this informative and back up our information with facts

I dont understand why this thread started to go this way

If you are European who is living in North America, your haplogroup and markers would all point to your ancestry same with Asians same with Native Americans same with Austalasians etc

In the case of North Africa theirs point to North African origins which places them squarely as African indigines. They are not of European descent at all

How hard is that to comprehend? Why does it have to deginirate to something else?


@ Buzu

Its nothing personal at all. I love informative topics and I love debates backed by facts. If studies show tommorrow that North Africans are descendants of Northern Europeans I would accept it.

I dont like blind arguments and the thread seemed to be heading that way rather than serving an informative purpose
Im signing out of this topic for today though

sage said:

You can have "white" skin and be an indiginous African and you can have dark skin and kinky hair and have no genetic connection to Africans at all

Every race has genetic connections to Africa. You do realise that it was just one out of the three DNA haplogroups of Africa which migrated out to form the other races?



Haplogroups L1, L2 and L3 . . . are largely confined to Africa. The macro haplogroups M and N, which are the lineages of the rest of the world outside Africa, descend from L3.

And both L2 and L3 descended from L1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans

ROSSIKE:

sage said:


Every race has genetic connections to Africa. You do realise that it was just one out of the three DNA haplogroups of Africa which migrated out to form the other races?



Haplogroups L1, L2 and L3 . . . are largely confined to Africa. The macro haplogroups M and N, which are the lineages of the rest of the world outside Africa, descend from L3.

And both L2 and L3 descended from L1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans

I had to come back and clarify that point.

What I ment is that you can have dark skin and kinky hair and still be the most genetically distant from so ccalled "black" Africans. My point was that light skin does not indicate not being an African neither does having dark skin and kinky hair indicate genetic closeness to Africans

The "black" people of Asia and Australia(Andamanese and negeritos are testament to that

ROSSIKE:

sage said:


Every race has genetic connections to Africa. You do realise that it was just one out of the three DNA haplogroups of Africa which migrated out to form the other races?



Haplogroups L1, L2 and L3 . . . are largely confined to Africa. The macro haplogroups M and N, which are the lineages of the rest of the world outside Africa, descend from L3.

And both L2 and L3 descended from L1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans

I love your Map dude its awesome and it tells the story of Haplogroups better than I can

Ive been saying it from the start of this threadabout North Africans and the Haplotypes on the African continent as opposed to others outside Africa

Your map tells the story well

What happened to this thread? I was having an intellectual debate in this thread earlier. The "Race" issues is always a controversial topic. The simple fact that the term "race" is a social construct. There are more genetic variations amongst a population, than there are amongst the different "races." This is a fact.

Sage, you an continue to be "brainwashed" but I use facts. I do not believe in evolution for various reasons. You all say whites came from blacks and look that way due to the cold weather, but what is it about asia's environment that gave those people a tan/yellow complexion, bone straight hair and almond shaped eyes? please.

In the U.S. when a person is murdered or to be identified and is nothing more than skull and bones they classify the unknown victim using the caucasoid (white), negroid (black), and mongoloid (asian) bone structures.

In several of the "Skeleton stories" and "Cold Case Files" television shows, it never ceased to amaze me how relevant me theory is.

In one show a native Canadian is raped, murdered and buried. Investigators were able to find her due to a video of she and her alleged attacker on camera in front of a store together. The man was asian in appearance, long black hair characteristic of asians and have blonde dyed streaks. Well asian like hair with long blonde streaks were found in the woods (forest) where her remains were descovered. They identified the man after running tests which concluded her attacker was EITHER: asian, native canadian/American, pacific islander or perhaps a Mexican immigrant.They labled those groups as "mongoloid" and noted the blonde dyed in his hair was actually more of a "golden rod" shade due to the fact that Asians, American and Candian Natives and Asian descendant pacific islander's hair react to blonde hair dye in the same fashion, unless applied more and more the blonde will not come out blonde but rather orange like. He, it turned out was native Canadian. My point: Asian = super group, the rest = subgroups or ASIAN DESCENDANTS (migration does NOT change one's origins/dna and Canadian/American natives crossed the straight that once connected North America to Asia just LIKE the Berbers/Moors from S.Arabia did to Africa). Mexicans, Pacific Islanders and Canadian Natives have lived in the West for THOUSANDS of years yet their ancestry is traced BACK to Asia (not Africa, not Europe. . .ASIA!). The Moors/Berbers are NOOOOO different.

Story two: A man leaves his Afro. Cuban wife and children to go to "work". He kisses them good bye and that is the LAST time he is seen alive. He too is murdered and buried for a long time. His remains were only bones. His identity was revealed but while tests were being conducted on his remains, he is classified as a "white male of mixed asian and negroid ancestry" with that information investigators were able to conclude that he was either of South American, Caribbean or even rarely Mediterranean descent. He was identified as a Cuban American national.


Another case was of a woman (prostitute) who was murdered and was still unknown at the time the episode originally aired, so they posted a "if anyone has any information please call" message but said she is EITHER a light skinned African American or of Creole Caribbean descent. When they showed s sketch of how they believe she looked prior to her mutilation she looked more like Alicia Keys than someone who is of "pure African" descent. However due to the amount of African, European and Asian dna in her they were not only able to accurately put her origins in one region (she was later identified as Puerto Rican) however but also find a way to recreate her face based on her skeletal features (the cheek bones, nose and head shape all characteristics used to differentiate the three different races: black, white, asian).


The basic, probability that someone who has ALL three White, black, asian in them and the amount of each is how scientists identify Jane/John Does. so in essence those three races are the "primary colors" of humanity. They cannot be duplicated but can be fused to create new colors: Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Middle Eastern. This definitely contradicts "evolution" in my opinion as it the racial mixing that is the reason the majority of the world can trace ancestry to Africa, not some monkey who learned to walk upright.

Unless each race had evolved from "different apes" there is NOTHING that convinces me due to the difference in DNA, Skull shape and stature. First they claimed we all came from Asia, then Hitler had his own team of scientists who claimed they had evidence that the world population was mutations of the Aryan race . Then they said Neanderthals were a different type of humanoid species but it turns out they were ancient Germans LOL. It's all bull and man made attempts to find answers only God knows. So with that said this black woman is not gullible, and my black skin is all the proof I need to know where I came from and that is what matters. Guilty white folks who want to place their ancestry in Africa to "let by gones be by gones" can frigg themselves. We might all be "one" but it doesn't change history, it doesn't make the wrongs done to my race right, it cant bring back what was stolen from us. God is our one and only common ancestor, Period.

debosky:

While that may true to an extent, it doesn't explain all the variations. It takes a much longer time frame than your Lagos example to cause changes that will 'penetrate' to the genetic level.

Besides, this environmental change doesn't remove the ability to distinguish between population groups based on their migratory progenitors. The base/core genetic make up of the progenitors/ancestors will likely be dominant above any environmentally induced changes.

i dont quite understand your question debosky

sage:

What happened to Ochi_Agha? We were actually having a good discussion

Its really sad how this thread has turned out. I am the type that is keen on learning new stuff but this thread has gone downhill since then

We should try to make threads like this informative and back up our information with facts

I dont understand why this thread started to go this way

If you are European who is living in North America, your haplogroup and markers would all point to your ancestry same with Asians same with Native Americans same with Austalasians etc

In the case of North Africa theirs point to North African origins which places them squarely as African indigines. They are not of European descent at all

How hard is that to comprehend? Why does it have to deginirate to something else?


@ Buzu

Its nothing personal at all. I love informative topics and I love debates backed by facts. If studies show tommorrow that North Africans are descendants of Northern Europeans I would accept it.

I dont like blind arguments and the thread seemed to be heading that way rather than serving an informative purpose
Im signing out of this topic for today though

saiiitttt bruv

ROSSIKE:

sage said:


Every race has genetic connections to Africa. You do realise that it was just one out of the three DNA haplogroups of Africa which migrated out to form the other races?



Haplogroups L1, L2 and L3 . . . are largely confined to Africa. The macro haplogroups M and N, which are the lineages of the rest of the world outside Africa, descend from L3.

And both L2 and L3 descended from L1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans

sage getting a right old rollicking from all angles  this is the 4th rollicking he getting on this here topic. might as well go ahead and hop off this haplogroup ship. it has absolutely nothing to do with nothing.

Ochi_Agha:

What happened to this thread? I was having an intellectual debate in this thread earlier. The "Race" issues is always a controversial topic. The simple fact that the term "race" is a social construct. There are more genetic variations amongst a population, than there are amongst the different "races." This is a fact.

right right, so we can both agree that sage is derailing the topic with all his haplogroup rants
. there is no such thing as 'race'. we are all africans and hence all have the same genetic markers with slight variations brought on by environmental conditioning.

MzDarkSkin:

Sage, you an continue to be "brainwashed" but I use facts. I do not believe in evolution for various reasons. You all say whites came from blacks and look that way due to the cold weather, but what is it about asia's environment that gave those people a tan/yellow complexion, bone straight hair and almond shaped eyes? please.

In the U.S. when a person is murdered or to be identified and is nothing more than skull and bones they classify the unknown victim using the caucasoid (white), negroid (black), and mongoloid (asian) bone structures.

In several of the "Skeleton stories" and "Cold Case Files" television shows, it never ceased to amaze me how relevant me theory is.

In one show a native Canadian is despoiled, murdered and buried. Investigators were able to find her due to a video of she and her alleged attacker on camera in front of a store together. The man was asian in appearance, long black hair characteristic of asians and have blonde dyed streaks. Well asian like hair with long blonde streaks were found in the woods (forest) where her remains were descovered. They identified the man after running tests which concluded her attacker was EITHER: asian, native canadian/American, pacific islander or perhaps a Mexican immigrant.They labled those groups as "mongoloid" and noted the blonde dyed in his hair was actually more of a "golden rod" shade due to the fact that Asians, American and Candian Natives and Asian descendant pacific islander's hair react to blonde hair dye in the same fashion, unless applied more and more the blonde will not come out blonde but rather orange like. He, it turned out was native Canadian. My point: Asian = super group, the rest = subgroups or ASIAN DESCENDANTS (migration does NOT change one's origins/dna and Canadian/American natives crossed the straight that once connected North America to Asia just LIKE the Berbers/Moors from S.Arabia did to Africa). Mexicans, Pacific Islanders and Canadian Natives have lived in the West for THOUSANDS of years yet their ancestry is traced BACK to Asia (not Africa, not Europe. . .ASIA!). The Moors/Berbers are NOOOOO different.

Story two: A man leaves his Afro. Cuban wife and children to go to "work". He kisses them good bye and that is the LAST time he is seen alive. He too is murdered and buried for a long time. His remains were only bones. His identity was revealed but while tests were being conducted on his remains, he is classified as a "white male of mixed asian and negroid ancestry" with that information investigators were able to conclude that he was either of South American, Caribbean or even rarely Mediterranean descent. He was identified as a Cuban American national.


Another case was of a woman (love-peddler) who was murdered and was still unknown at the time the episode originally aired, so they posted a "if anyone has any information please call" message but said she is EITHER  a light skinned African American or of Creole Caribbean descent. When they showed s sketch of how they believe she looked prior to her mutilation she looked more like Alicia Keys than someone who is of "pure African" descent. However due to the amount of African, European and Asian dna in her they were not only able to accurately put her origins in one region (she was later identified as Puerto Rican) however but also find a way to recreate her face based on her skeletal features (the cheek bones, nose and head shape all characteristics used to differentiate the three different races: black, white, asian).


The basic, probability that someone who has ALL three White, black, asian in them and the amount of each is how scientists identify Jane/John Does. so in essence those three races are the "primary colors" of humanity. They cannot be duplicated but can be fused to create new colors: Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Middle Eastern. This definitely contradicts "evolution" in my opinion as it the racial mixing that is the reason the majority of the world can trace ancestry to Africa, not some monkey who learned to walk upright.

Unless each race had evolved from "different apes" there is NOTHING that convinces me due to the difference in DNA, Skull shape and stature. First they claimed we all came from Asia, then Hitler had his own team of scientists who claimed they had evidence that the world population was mutations of the Aryan race  . Then they said Neanderthals were a different type of humanoid species but it turns out they were ancient Germans LOL. It's all bull and man made attempts to find answers only God knows. So with that said this black woman is not gullible, and my black skin is all the proof I need to know where I came from and that is what matters. Guilty white folks who want to place their ancestry in Africa to "let by gones be by gones" can frigg themselves. We might all be "one" but it doesn't change history, it doesn't make the wrongs done to my race right, it cant bring back what was stolen from us. God is our one and only common ancestor, Period.

i see you are a 'forensic files' junkie. i saw the first case too. but yeah it is a combination of both. we did not evolve from apes. that is bollocks. but when we were created, we all looked the same initially. and then due to faults, attrition and erosion and drifting of the land mass, we got scattered and started to change. you have to remember that this happened over hundreds of thousands of years. an example i will give you of such a change happening to a slight degree in modern day is to look at white south africans whose ancestry dates back to the first time whites moved to south africa. they look different from the normal whites who moved there recently. they have big lips, broad noses and high cheek bones. they look like black white men. see they are starting to evolve slowly. maybe in another 20 or 30 generations if they still are in africa, their skin will regain the ability to produce melanin again and they will morph back into black people.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

that guy i posted is a white south african

MzDarkSkin:

Sage, you an continue to be "brainwashed" but I use facts. I do not believe in evolution for various reasons. You all say whites came from blacks and look that way due to the cold weather, but what is it about asia's environment that gave those people a tan/yellow complexion, bone straight hair and almond shaped eyes? please.

In the U.S. when a person is murdered or to be identified and is nothing more than skull and bones they classify the unknown victim using the caucasoid (white), negroid (black), and mongoloid (asian) bone structures.

In several of the "Skeleton stories" and "Cold Case Files" television shows, it never ceased to amaze me how relevant me theory is.

In one show a native Canadian is despoiled, murdered and buried. Investigators were able to find her due to a video of she and her alleged attacker on camera in front of a store together. The man was asian in appearance, long black hair characteristic of asians and have blonde dyed streaks. Well asian like hair with long blonde streaks were found in the woods (forest) where her remains were descovered. They identified the man after running tests which concluded her attacker was EITHER: asian, native canadian/American, pacific islander or perhaps a Mexican immigrant.They labled those groups as "mongoloid" and noted the blonde dyed in his hair was actually more of a "golden rod" shade due to the fact that Asians, American and Candian Natives and Asian descendant pacific islander's hair react to blonde hair dye in the same fashion, unless applied more and more the blonde will not come out blonde but rather orange like. He, it turned out was native Canadian. My point: Asian = super group, the rest = subgroups or ASIAN DESCENDANTS (migration does NOT change one's origins/dna and Canadian/American natives crossed the straight that once connected North America to Asia just LIKE the Berbers/Moors from S.Arabia did to Africa). Mexicans, Pacific Islanders and Canadian Natives have lived in the West for THOUSANDS of years yet their ancestry is traced BACK to Asia (not Africa, not Europe. . .ASIA!). The Moors/Berbers are NOOOOO different.

Story two: A man leaves his Afro. Cuban wife and children to go to "work". He kisses them good bye and that is the LAST time he is seen alive. He too is murdered and buried for a long time. His remains were only bones. His identity was revealed but while tests were being conducted on his remains, he is classified as a "white male of mixed asian and negroid ancestry" with that information investigators were able to conclude that he was either of South American, Caribbean or even rarely Mediterranean descent. He was identified as a Cuban American national.


Another case was of a woman (love-peddler) who was murdered and was still unknown at the time the episode originally aired, so they posted a "if anyone has any information please call" message but said she is EITHER a light skinned African American or of Creole Caribbean descent. When they showed s sketch of how they believe she looked prior to her mutilation she looked more like Alicia Keys than someone who is of "pure African" descent. However due to the amount of African, European and Asian dna in her they were not only able to accurately put her origins in one region (she was later identified as Puerto Rican) however but also find a way to recreate her face based on her skeletal features (the cheek bones, nose and head shape all characteristics used to differentiate the three different races: black, white, asian).


The basic, probability that someone who has ALL three White, black, asian in them and the amount of each is how scientists identify Jane/John Does. so in essence those three races are the "primary colors" of humanity. They cannot be duplicated but can be fused to create new colors: Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Middle Eastern. This definitely contradicts "evolution" in my opinion as it the racial mixing that is the reason the majority of the world can trace ancestry to Africa, not some monkey who learned to walk upright.

Unless each race had evolved from "different apes" there is NOTHING that convinces me due to the difference in DNA, Skull shape and stature. First they claimed we all came from Asia, then Hitler had his own team of scientists who claimed they had evidence that the world population was mutations of the Aryan race . Then they said Neanderthals were a different type of humanoid species but it turns out they were ancient Germans LOL. It's all bull and man made attempts to find answers only God knows. So with that said this black woman is not gullible, and my black skin is all the proof I need to know where I came from and that is what matters. Guilty white folks who want to place their ancestry in Africa to "let by gones be by gones" can frigg themselves. We might all be "one" but it doesn't change history, it doesn't make the wrongs done to my race right, it cant bring back what was stolen from us. God is our one and only common ancestor, Period.

Nothing you typed up here has anything to do with "race"

You can use remains to decipher if a person is of Northern European or mediteranian descent. the same with an East African and a West African. they have differences too.

Non of this has anything to do with "race" and there is no such thing like "your race" or a "black race" in nature

quit deceiving yourself

You can carry out work on remains and identify if a person is of West African descent, East African descent or Southern African descent. Same with a Northern Europeans, Southern Europeans etc It has nothing particularly to do with "race" unless all these groups are also "races" themselves

Its sort of like Sickle cell disease. Scientists, back in the days when they thought humans were divided by "race", used to falsely classify Sickle cell as a "black race" disease.

Well now most people know that was false science because people in Greece, the middle East and Asia suffer from sickle cell disease while many "black" Africans in parts of the continent are not susceptible to Sickle cell.

Sometimes population clusters have commonalities

but none of that has anything to do with "race" and a "black race" or any race for that matter does NOT exist in nature

only in social classifications

buzugee:

sage getting a right old rollicking from all angles this is the 4th rollicking he getting on this here topic. might as well go ahead and hop off this haplogroup ship. it has absolutely nothing to do with nothing.

What I said was correct, infact the map proves my point about North Africans having a different haplotype from Europeans and sharing a Haplotype common to Africans


You guys mistook my comments. I ment that peple like Andamanese and Negeritoes who have "black" skin and kinky hair are the most genetically distant from Africans among all humans and this is proven fact. You can check it out

A white Berber and an Hausa man are much more close to each other genetically than a black Andamanese or Negerito

I dont make points that I am not sure of and I was correct in my assertion


Nowhere in my posting did I say that all haplogroups did not emarge from Africa

I was trying to disprove a point about looks and how looks are not indicative of a person being an African or not in the indiginous sense and so I was contrasting North Africans to Negeritoes

Ochi_Agha:

What happened to this thread? I was having an intellectual debate in this thread earlier. The "Race" issues is always a controversial topic. The simple fact that the term "race" is a social construct. There are more genetic variations amongst a population, than there are amongst the different "races." This is a fact.

+1000

That was one of the findings of the Human Genome Project. I wish people here would review it before getting into this debate so we can actually discuss facts and not fantasy

So many people here are stuck up on artficial terms like "black", "white" and social constructions like "race"

sage:

What I said was correct, infact the map proves my point about North Africans having a different haplotype from Europeans and sharing a Haplotype common to Africans


You guys mistook my comments. I ment that peple like Andamanese and Negeritoes who have "black" skin and kinky hair are the most genetically distant from Africans among all humans and this is proven fact. You can check it out

A white Berber and an Hausa man are much more close to each other genetically than a black Andamanese or Negerito

I dont make points that I am not sure of and I was correct in my assertion


Nowhere in my posting did I say that all haplogroups did not emarge from Africa

I was trying to disprove a point about looks and how looks are not indicative of a person being an African or not in the indiginous sense and so I was contrasting North Africans to Negeritoes

but you see all this haplotype stuff is irrelevant to this debate. you are picking at shallow stuff. the fact remains that the berbers, arabs and whatever white skin people living in north africa are transplants from other places. thats just the facts. the indigenous people to that region are dark skin black people. if berbers have haplotypes that resemble black people from africa then thats only because they are distant descendants of people from africa, and that will be the same for white people, chinese, japanese etc. they are all distant descendants of african people so they should all have haplotypes similar to a black african man. the fact that a berber has a haplotype that resembles an african more than a white man is only a testament to the harsh weather conditions the white man found himself in and hence a bit more variation than say the berber. ya dig ? the berber has environmental conditions somewhat similar to the africans in the middle east so that could explain why you think they are africans because of the not so drastic change in their genetic make-up. FACT STILL REMAINS THAT THEY FURTHER DOWN THE LINE TRANSPLANTED THEMSELVES BACK TO NORTH AFRICA FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.

sage:

+1000

That was one of the findings of the Human Genome Project. I wish people here would review it before getting into this debate so we can actually discuss facts and not fantasy

So many people here are stuck up on artficial terms like "black", "white" and social constructions like "race"

let me see you fill out a job application in america or britain and the box where it asks you to tick your race, let me see you try to explain to them that race is a social construct and irrelevant and does not exist. they will throw you out on your ear and call the security guard to keep you out. this shytt is real. it is here to stay. better embrace it if you live in the west. only deep thinkers know it is bullcrap. but how many deep thinkers exist in this world ? better get with the program sire 

reading but must speak

hmmm interesting stuff

buzugee:

we all are the same but let me break down how a man can evolve over thousands of years from a black man into a white man

1, gondwanaland splits
2, your side of it drifts into cold no-sun europe
3, no sun means no vitamin D
4,  no vitamin D means that your body cannot absorb phosphorus from food
5,  no phosphorus means your body cannot form phospholipids
6. no phospholipids means your lips get thinner and your butt gets smaller and your body gets less chubby and supple
7, cold air means that you need to conserve all the heat you have so your nose gets smaller in order to conserve heat
8,  no sun means your skin lightens and with time looses its ability to form melanin


but we are all the same. no such thing as race. just different variations of the same being

thank you buzugee. You said it all!


The race theory in which the humanity is divided into different races today is an outdated theory. The races have been distinguished primarily on physical signs like the skin colour and the hairs, also differences in the character and with abilities were factors. These views are outdated since the 1990s, because genetic investigations proved that the differences are substantially lower between the putative races than the variability within these populations and that there is nothing like races in biological sense.

In this case sage is right when he says that there can be more differences between two people of the same "race" as between two people of different "races".

Some dey talk scientific theory. Others dey talk wetin dey happen for street. 

On the street, you're black. Or white. Or Asian/Latino

That's it.

That's what counts.

Of course we all know race is a social construct and that everyone is equal beneath the skin.

In fact, that is exactly what threads like this are designed to show.

By showing that blacks have had as much influence on human civilization as anyone else on earth, we help to promote the truth of mass equality of the races. So what's the beef eh?  

I mean we can't sit here and pretend the whites did not rewrite history to keep blacks out can we?

Surely we need to set the record straight don't we? 

It would not be inaccurate to say that the Moors helped reintroduce Europe to civilization.  But just who were the Moors of antiquity anyway?  As early as the Middle Ages, and as early as the seventeenth century, "The Moors were," according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "commonly supposed to be mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro."  Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that "The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans."

At the beginning of the eighth century Moorish soldiers crossed over from Africa into Spain, Portugal, and France, where their swift victories became the substance of legends.  To the Christians of early Europe there was no question regarding the ethnicity of the Moors, and numerous sources support the view that the Moors were a black-skinned people.  Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur.  Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black."  In the French epic known as the Song of Roland the Moors are described as "blacker than ink."

William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably.  Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors.  The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a black man with wooly hair."

Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.  St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many Black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire.

SOURCES:
Golden Age Of The Moor, Edited by Ivan Van Sertima
Natures Knows No Color-Line, by J.A. Rogers

Horus:

It would not be inaccurate to say that the Moors helped reintroduce Europe to civilization.  But just who were the Moors of antiquity anyway?  As early as the Middle Ages, and as early as the seventeenth century, "The Moors were," according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "commonly supposed to be mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro."  Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that "The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans."

At the beginning of the eighth century Moorish soldiers crossed over from Africa into Spain, Portugal, and France, where their swift victories became the substance of legends.  To the Christians of early Europe there was no question regarding the ethnicity of the Moors, and numerous sources support the view that the Moors were a black-skinned people.  Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur.  Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black."  In the French epic known as the Song of Roland the Moors are described as "blacker than ink."

William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably.  Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors.  The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a black man with wooly hair."

Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.  St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many Black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire.

SOURCES:
Golden Age Of The Moor, Edited by Ivan Van Sertima
Natures Knows No Color-Line, by J.A. Rogers

Thank you Horus for reiterating what I have said earlier in this thread. Some people need to know the real history of the Moors. They did in fact reintroduce civilization to Dark Age Europe. The Moors of Spain were advanced in medicine, education, philosophy, architecture etc. The early Christian Kingdoms in Europe were very envious of this shining beacon of civilization in Europe. The word Moor was synonymous with Black. That is a fact. Moorish Spain was truly a marvel up until the Reconquista by Queen Isabela and King Ferdinand.

Most Europeans with surnames like Moor, Maurice, Moore, Morris, Morrison, Morefield, etc have ancient black ancestry. Among some of them it can be quite visible.

buzugee:

let me see you fill out a job application in america or britain and the box where it asks you to tick your race, let me see you try to explain to them that race is a social construct and irrelevant and does not exist. they will throw you out on your ear and call the security guard to keep you out. this shytt is real. it is here to stay. better embrace it if you live in the west. only deep thinkers know it is bullcrap. but how many deep thinkers exist in this world ? better get with the program sire

@buzu

Are you suggesting we all become shallow thinkers

Who would do all the deep thinking and revel the facts?

The world needs more deep thinkers not vice-versa

All of these Ivan Van Sertima/J.A. Rogers/David MacRitchie propagandists need to sit down, shut up, pick up real history books on Europe and acquaint themselves with reality and then see how these "sources" for their claims stack up against mountains of documented history to the contrary. Next I'll hear about how the Nubians conquered Spain in 300 AD and how all vikings and all Picts were originally black. Next the claims about "Black Douglas" of Scotland. Then more crap about black Moors running Spain. All of these "Black Africans ruling Europe" claims are old invalid conjectures that have been laughed out of academia for a reason. I place it with the Black Athena and Black Chinese claims.

never heard of vikings being black.

the moors, however, clearly had some obviously black people among them.

an example i will give you of such a change happening to a slight degree in modern day is to look at white south africans whose ancestry dates back to the first time whites moved to south africa. they look different from the normal whites who moved there recently. they have big lips, broad noses and high cheek bones. they look like black white men. see they are starting to evolve slowly. maybe in another 20 or 30 generations if they still are in africa, their skin will regain the ability to produce melanin again and they will morph back into black people.

bros, that's not evolution.

you're confusing his features with the waspish uncle sam look.

if i'm reading you correctly.

the thread has actually gotten very confusing.

no sun means your skin lightens and with time looses its ability to form melanin

nah. Every race has melanin but some have it more than others.




and @ sage

you're not accounting for the phoenicians.

tpia1:

never heard of vikings being black.

the moors, however, clearly had some obviously black people among them.

Of course some of the Moors were black. That's quite a different thing than what's being claimed in this thread and on various sites containing the same kind of misinformation.

As for black viking claims:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/british.html

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-bla-maors-the-black-vikings-and-the-black-danes-compiled-by-invasion2012/


Everyone should read the discussion following the article of the second link I posted. It's interesting. Some racists on both sides (black, white), though.

One person even tried to claim a 500 B.C. Nok sculpture depicted a proto-Viking because the face had horns like those on a viking helmet. Fanciful. I wonder why the people so interested in making these kind of claims don't pursue archaeological research to prove their claims. If there was a seafaring culture situated, strangely, in central (not coastal, for some reason) inland Nigeria, research could be conducted to find the caches of tombs and/or artwork showing evidence of these seafaring exploits. It's not like the area is so developed that archaeology would be impossible.


This thread however, is basically just a rehash of most of Ivan Van Sertima's books.

^^^^

and why should i believe u??

ohhhh i finally get it; only by going through the books u listed

with all the lies in the past and the ones we all wittness in our time as far as living in the earth is concern one has to be cautious nevertheless science is what it is