perezeghi:
It's not for me to explain to you but for you to seek out Christ Jesus to grant it to you. Desire Him sincerely and He will make it known to you. It's as simple as that.

Ok. So where does Jesus Christ suggest that I have to seek Him out in order for Him to then grant me this knowledge I seek?
Where does Jesus Christ say that I should desire Him sincerely for Him to make it known to me?

Kobojunkiee:
Ok. So where does Jesus Christ suggest that I have to seek Him out in order for Him to then grant me this knowledge I seek?
Where does Jesus Christ say that I should desire Him sincerely for Him to make it known to me?

Are you born again and do not know these things.....
Are you likened to the disciples of John the Baptist who have not heard about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.......

Do you say you're a Christian and do not know it.....

The origin of the word "christian" denotes to be Christ-like. To be Christ -Like like is to have the mind of Him whom you claim to be from. This was spoken of about His disciples in Acts 11:26 and Acts 26:28. Please do well to study and meditate on the entire chapter. These people are first believers, disciples and christians.

perezeghi:

Are you born again and do not know these things.....
Are you likened to the disciples of John the Baptist who have not heard about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.......

Do you say you're a Christian and do not know it.....

The origin of the word "christian" denotes to be Christ-like. To be Christ -Like like is to have the mind of Him whom you claim to be from. This was spoken of about His disciples in Acts 11:26 and Acts 26:28. Please do well to study and meditate on the entire chapter. These people are first believers, disciples and christians.

I am born-again but remember what you, only a couple of posts ago, declared instead....

perezeghi:
Your above explanation is the reason why you'll not be understanding the Scripture.

Mark.4.20 - But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."

...I want to know the meaning behind the statements you continue to make about this belief of yours.

Kobojunkiee:
I am born-again but remember what you, only a couple of posts ago, declared instead.... ...I want to know the meaning behind the statements you continue to make about this belief of yours.

Apologies for it is not my belief but the belief of Christ Jesus that we should all be like minded as He is.

Read Romans 12:2 and Philippians 2:1-21(NKJV and NIV).

Everything I keep saying is in how you understand in understanding.......

Now the bearing fruits of 30,60 and 100...... N/B: This is understanding + faith working for us in our christian living.

Consider the 30,60 and100 to be in percentage just like what is obtainable in academic institutions.

Hope it's clear....

perezeghi:

Apologies for it is not my belief but the belief of Christ Jesus that we should all be like minded as He is.

Read Romans 12:2 and Philippians 2:1-21(NKJV and NIV).

Everything I keep saying is in how you understand in understanding.......

Now the bearing fruits of 30,60 and 100...... N/B: This is understanding + faith working for us in our christian living.

Consider the 30,60 and100 to be in percentage just like what is obtainable in academic institutions.

Hope it's clear....

The belief of Christ that we should be like-minded? Jesus Christ never said that. He instead commanded that we each trust and obey Him and Him alone since He is the Master over each who belongs to Him. So, it is not that we sync up with others but instead we each stay in sync with Him...abide in Him.

As for bearing of fruit... what does fruit mean there to you? And how does understanding + faith work in that? I ask because I am well aware of how terms don't necessary have the same meaning application across doctrines and denominations in Christiandom. What Jesus Christ called faith is far from what is referred to as faith today in Christendom.

Kobojunkiee:
The belief of Christ that we should be like-minded? Jesus Christ never said that. He instead commanded that we each trust and obey Him and Him alone since He is the Master over each who belongs to Him. So, it is not that we sync up with others but instead we each stay in sync with Him...abide in Him.

As for bearing of fruit... what does fruit mean there to you? And how does understanding + faith work in that? I ask because I am well aware of how terms don't necessary have the same meaning application across doctrines and denominations in Christiandom. What Jesus Christ called faith is far from what is referred to as faith today in Christendom.

Please correct me where you feel I'm wrong in the following ......

Every acclaimed born again is unto God the Father through Christ Jesus.
Now if our being born again is as a result of believing in Christ Jesus for all that He did to bring us to the Father why would one want to conform to his ways rather than to His way to be able to access the Father who made us all........

To be born again is to be transformed into the image of the One who brought us redemption. It is in His image we are all bought at that price of the blood.

I attend a church but I try not to do denomination doctrine as an individual.


Apologies.......but let's do it this way let me get your words.......

What does fruit bearing mean to you in that context of verse/ passage... ............

perezeghi:
Please correct me where you feel I'm wrong in the following ......
Every acclaimed born again is unto God the Father through Christ Jesus.
Now if our being born again is as a result of believing in Christ Jesus for all that He did to bring us to the Father why would one want to conform to his ways rather than to His way to be able to access the Father who made us all........

Let's be reminded that not everyone who claims to be born-again truly is since according to Jesus Christ, in order to become a born-again one who is free from slavery to sin(a follower of Jesus Christ) has to continue in submission to(trust) and obey His teachings/commandments. It is a process that begins with submission and obedience and continues in that even after the second helper, the Spirit of God, has arrived.

John 14 vs 15-21 (ESV)
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15. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever,
17. even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you.
18. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
21. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Let's keep this in mind as we proceed please... any standard different from the one set by Jesus Christ Himself is not of Him.

perezeghi:
To be born again is to be transformed into the image of the One who brought us redemption. It is in His image we are all bought at that price of the blood.

It is a process that continues until we breathe our last on this earth perhaps...It isn't something that happens overnight, nor does one suddenly realize one day that one has been transformed into Jesus Christ. No, it is a lifelong process that probably ends at death and is only tested when Jesus Christ returns for final testing by His Word(fire).

perezeghi:
I attend a church but I try not to do denomination doctrine as an individual.
Apologies.......but let's do it this way let me get your words.......
What does fruit bearing mean to you in that context of verse/ passage... ............

Ok. For me, fruits refer to good works(Righteousness)- the Will of God- which is what Jesus Christ was said to have gone around doing while He was here on earth. Jesus Christ went around doing the Will of God, and He commands that we as His followers do the same, and even more. These are the works that will be judged by in the end. See...Matthew 25 vs 31-40.

Kobojunkiee:
Perfection is expected to take place before righteousness so your righteousness is not stained by your imperfections..that is what Isaiah 64 is also saying.

In John 8, Jesus Christ details how those who believe in Him can attain perfection/holiness without which no man can see God.

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Do u remember that apostle Paul said that he strives towards perfection, but have not attained it yet.
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Philippians 3:12

Amplified Bible
Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.
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Perfection is a process.

FarmTech:
Do u remember that apostle Paul said that he strives towards perfection, but have not attained it yet.
Philippians 3:12
Amplified Bible
Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.
.
Perfection is a process.

Paul might have written that in his letter to those in Phillipi but remember, that was Paul. No one is called to follow the examples and words of Paul though.
Now, according to Jesus Christ, the one who is Master over us all, perfection/holiness is achieved through continued submission to and obedience of His teachings/commandments, a process which begins when you first choose to believe.

John 8 vs 31-36
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31. So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers.
32. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”
34. Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
35. A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever.
36. So if the Son makes you free, you are really free.

And is achieved when you eventually become a follower of His. Only those who are become followers are then able to become born again, so we know that the disciples, and other followers, who were born-again on Pentecost were already at that point for the Spirit have come on them as He did.

perezeghi:



Nice one.
The bolded is a continuous tense. There's a reason why it is imputed like that.

It's that continuity that leads to perfection. It's not a back and forth or forth and back thing.

.
Agreed.

FarmTech:
There is God's righteousness and man's righteousness.

Rom.10.3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
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It is man's righteousness that is a filthy rag before God. God's righteousness says: "believe in Christ and he will give u the power to live above sin". But man's righteousness will say: " I believe in Christ! But I still love some sins". Finally, let every believer be encouraged by:
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1 John 3:7
Amplified Bible
Little children (believers, dear ones), do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who practices righteousness [the one who strives to live a consistently honorable life—in private as well as in public—and to conform to God’s precepts] is righteous, just as He is righteous.
.
Despite the above verse, some "sinner Christians" will still say no one is righteous. They mistake righteousness with perfection.

Juxtapose 1 John 3:7 with Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

While believing in Christ imputes God's righteousness on man, there's still a needed man's righteousness.

The question ergo becomes, How then do you differentiate God's righteousness from man's righteousness?

Myer:
Juxtapose 1 John 3:7 with Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
While believing in Christ imputes God's righteousness on man, there's still a needed man's righteousness.
The question ergo becomes, How then do you differentiate God's righteousness from man's righteousness?

You are a gentile and so were never bound to the Old Covenant, let alone Old Covenant righteousness requirements.

Please see the following like for a better explanation of what Jesus Christ did.https://www.nairaland.com/6492494/jesus-didnt-come-sinners-call#100742703

Those imparted with righteousness from Jesus Christ's fulfillment of the Old Covenant, cannot, however, use that pass where New Covenant righteousness is concerned since the process is the same for all in Jesus Christ.

Again, much of Paul's writings were for a Jewish audience and not for the eyes and ears of the gentile world...

[quote author=Kobojunkiee

It is a process that continues until we breathe our last on this earth perhaps...It isn't something that happens overnight, nor does one suddenly realize one day that one has been transformed into Jesus Christ. No, it is a lifelong process that probably ends at death and is only tested when Jesus Christ returns for final testing by His Word(fire).

Certainly it ends at death. As long as the transformation is not a forth and back or back and forth thing unto sin .

Ok. For me, fruits refer to good works(Righteousness)- the Will of God- which is what Jesus Christ was said to have gone around doing while He was here on earth. Jesus Christ went around doing the Will of God, and He commands that we as His followers do the same, and even more. These are the works that will be judged by in the end. See...Matthew 25 vs 31-40. [/quote]

If fruits refer to good works (righteousness).....how do you link its explanation to the 30, 60 and 100 in the verse

Myer:


Juxtapose 1 John 3:7 with Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

While believing in Christ imputes God's righteousness on man, there's still a needed man's righteousness.

The question ergo becomes, How then do you differentiate God's righteousness from man's righteousness?

.
If u obey and follow God's plan for salvation, then u are godly righteous. But if u disobey it like the Jews and follow sth else, that is man's righteousness. Eg some idol worshippers will tell u that they worship same God as Christians, just that they do it thru an image. They will also claim that they live more righteously than many Christians. That is an example of man's righteousness.
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Another eg of man's righteousness is a 'christian' that will willfully sin and then try to balance it up with some good works.

Kobojunkiee:
Paul might have written that in his letter to those in Phillipi but remember, that was Paul. No one is called to follow the examples and words of Paul though.
Now, according to Jesus Christ, the one who is Master over us all, perfection/holiness is achieved through continued submission to and obedience of His teachings/commandments, a process which begins when you first choose to believe.
And is achieved when you eventually become a follower of His. Only those who are become followers are then able to become born again, so we know that the disciples, and other followers, who were born-again on Pentecost were already at that point for the Spirit have come on them as He did.

.
That is ur problem. In the past, I know u clearly rejected other part of the bible and accept only teachings of Jesus. U need repentance. After that, U'll come to understand that perfection is not a day's job.

Kobojunkiee:


...
Again, much of Paul's writings were for a Jewish audience and not for the eyes and ears of the gentile world...

.
Hmm, Paul, who is an apostle to the gentile? Why come here to confuse people?

FarmTech:
Hmm, Paul, who is an apostle to the gentile? Why come here to confuse people?

Everyone of the apostles was called to the gentiles as well... When Jesus Christ gave them the command to go into the World....

Matthew 28 vs 19-20
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19. So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
20. Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

He was not sending them to only the jews but to the world.... and there are only two kinds of people...jews and gentiles.

FarmTech:
That is ur problem. In the past, I know u clearly rejected other part of the bible and accept only teachings of Jesus. U need repentance. After that, U'll come to understand that perfection is not a day's job.

You simply need to use your head in this. Jesus Christ is the Law. Can any man, woman, or child, even Paul, change what has been declared by the Word of God Himself? Here's hoping you know the answer to that is a NO.
So where Jesus Christ, the Truth of God, declared that you must be perfect, He implies that you must be perfect. And where He gives you instructions on how to become perfect, His Word is Law.

John 8 vs 31-36
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31. So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers.
32. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”
34. Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
35. A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever.
36. So if the Son makes you free, you are really free.

God is God of Laws and Jesus Christ is God's New Covenant Law in the Kingdom of God. If Heaven is where you hope to end up, you need to start taking Jesus Christ more seriously than you do anyone or anything else.

perezeghi:
If fruits refer to good works (righteousness).....how do you link its explanation to the 30, 60 and 100 in the verse

I would consider them indicators of how much of your time and effort goes towards producing the fruits in question. 30%, 60% or 100%

Kobojunkiee:
I would consider them indicators of how much of your time and effort goes towards producing the fruits in question. 30%, 60% or 100%

Time and effort is put into what is first heard and understood before it will produce fruits.


Maybe you should consider reading Matt13:23.........

perezeghi:

Time and effort is put into what is first heard and understood before it will produce fruits.
Maybe you should consider reading Matt13:23.........

Well, the seed hears, understands, grows and produces fruits - all 4 verbs suggest action on the part of the seed to move through the different phases ....suggesting time and effort all throughout the process... .

Kobojunkiee:
Well, the seed hears, understands, grows and produces fruits - all 4 verbs suggest action on the part of the seed to move through the different phases ....suggesting time and effort all throughout the process... .

We only have one life here on earth.
Scripture says in all your getting, get understanding. In all that we seek let us seek that which will give us optimum fruits at 100.

Hmmmm........ Many preachings and teachings have since been and being heard about/on this very scripture verse. Many have used it to justify their evil/lustful/unchristian lifestyle.

We must be careful when making reference to certain scriptural quotes to avoid blasphemy and heresies.

Yes, Prophet Isaiah was a genuine message of God. The very point in Isaiah 64 : 6 was a prayer of intercession for the sin of national israel (the israelites) when they erred by glorifying the sacrifices for sin over obedience to Gods commandments.

Isaiah chapter 64 was a continuation of intercession that actually started in chapter 63 : 15. A good study of what I just references would help anyone who's interested in the pursuit of knowledge will understand that it was a prayer for forgiveness (intercession).

The first part of Isaiah 64 was not independent but continuation of what started in the previous chapter. We must therefore study the scripture with the eyes of the spirit and not being denominational of sentimental.

I will someday come up and address the fundamentals of the book of Job. It is a book that's somehow unique among other books of the scriptures.

Two of the peculiarities of the book is that it predates the pentateuch and was not written by a israelites. (Job was neither a Jew nor an Hebrew.

I will soon address it and I hope it will get to the front page.

perezeghi:
We only have one life here on earth.
Scripture says in all your getting, get understanding. In all that we seek let us seek that which will give us optimum fruits at 100.

And according to Jesus Christ, the Only Way to do that is through submitting to and obeying His Truth every moment of every day of that one life we have. Hence the reason why I believe it has to do with time and effort on our part ... not some magical interference and definitely not that some are destined to only produce 30 or 60 while a select few are chosen to produce 100 - that idea is not biblical at all.

There is no other way.. to be happy in Jesus Christ, but to TRUST AND OBEY!

Kobojunkiee:
And according to Jesus Christ, the Only Way to do that is through submitting to and obeying His Truth every moment of every day of that one life we have. Hence the reason why I believe it has to do with time and effort on our part ... not some magical interference and definitely not that some are destined to only produce 30 or 60 while a select few are chosen to produce 100 - that idea is not biblical at all.

There is no other way.. to be happy in Jesus Christ, but to TRUST AND OBEY!

You need to read your Bible very well and with all manner of openness to get to the understanding which is Biblical and which is not.

The Scripture is there for all to read. What you make out of it is how you'll apply to your daily living.

Shalom.

perezeghi:

You need to read your Bible very well and with all manner of openness to get to the understanding which is Biblical and which is not.

The Scripture is there for all to read. What you make out of it is how you'll apply to your daily living.

Shalom.

What part of it am I supposed to read now?

What part of what I stated in my post there do you think does not align with the scripture as it stands?

I continue to repeat to repeat what Jesus Christ said, "If you love me, you will obey my teachings/commandments " .... what about it does not align with His teachings?

Kobojunkiee:
You simply need to use your head in this. Jesus Christ is the Law. Can any man, woman, or child, even Paul, change what has been declared by the Word of God Himself? Here's hoping you know the answer to that is a NO.
So where Jesus Christ, the Truth of God, declared that you must be perfect, He implies that you must be perfect. And where He gives you instructions on how to become perfect, His Word is Law.

God is God of Laws and Jesus Christ is God's New Covenant Law in the Kingdom of God. If Heaven is where you hope to end up, you need to start taking Jesus Christ more seriously than you do anyone or anything else.

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Jesus didn't teach them everything. Rather he sent the Holy Spirit to do that. So the gospel about Jesus did not contain all about him. Is this hard for u to understand how flaw ur thinking is?
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1. U don't believe in the book of Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans etc and u call urself a christian?
2. In my past arguments with u, U supported and encourage women to dress like prostitutes

3. U supported those who use foul languages
4. U regarded every pastor as swindlers.
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These and many more shows that u are not even a Christian. U are just here to confuse those u can confuse.

Kobojunkiee:
Everyone of the apostles was called to the gentiles as well... When Jesus Christ gave them the command to go into the World....
He was not sending them to only the jews but to the world.... and there are only two kinds of people...jews and gentiles.

.
U seemed to have forgotten what u said: that Paul's teachings were directed mainly to jewish audience.