Hi ebos,

ebos:

@Pilgrim, The points pasted below about Mary are the biblical references I made already. Now, you said Rosary is not in the bible. But ebos did not write all these bible portions I stated. You have seen it in the bible, yet you still insist the honour to Mary is not biblical. If Catholics worship Mary then Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth first worshipped her.

Before I make any responses, I'd like you to do me just one little favour: post here the Hail Mary prayer and then post the verses as well to show that they are indeed from the Bible as Catholics pray it.

- - - -

Second, I'd like for you to help our readers understand this point:

(a) is the Hail Mary prayer a PRAYER made to MARY or not?

(b) who do Christians pray to?


Thank you, and looking forward to your answers.

locoman:

@ebos

you seem not to understand my questions, i ask,

1. Why are they using something round like a coin in place of unlevend bread and wine for the holy Communion ?

2. I ask why are you saying virgin Mary? (she was indeed a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus and there after she had other children naturally with Joseph. Yet, you always say virgin Mary.

3. Our forfathers are alive, you are quit right about that. But they are not worthy enough to advocate for us. (no one was found worthy to break the seven seal. Except the lamb who seats on the throne was found worthy).

4. you do not understand the meaning of baptism.

What you don't understand you call it a coin. The Host is bread made without yeast and when consecrated it becomes Body of Christ. So, don't call it coin again. The wine when consecrated becomes Blood of Jesus. Christ did not use His flesh and blood per say rather bread and wine. But as soon as Christ blessed them they became His Body and Blood. This is a mystery - it is beyond human knowledge. You know bread without yeast cannot rise. That is what Catholic use and in it has been so in the time of Christ. Bread without yeast. Again, I will like you to explain to me what Baptism is all about before I come out with full meaning of Baptism.

Pilgrim, I will respond, my server a bit disappointing me.

These Bible portions make up the Hail Mary. Luke 1 vs 29 and Luke 1 vs 42-45. But there are other portions that make up the mysteries as stated earlier in my posts. You can help read it back again.

Luke 1 vs 29. It was Angel Gabriel that said this to Mary “ Hail, you favoured one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women.” Again in Luke 1 vs 42-45 - “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb (Jesus)” Finally, the Church through the guide of the Holy Spirit added the last part of the Prayer which is “Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen.

Catholics do not WORSHIP or PRAY to Mary. Christians pray to God. What we give Mary is just the honour which she truly deserves. You can still honour your fellow human being. Now Pilgrim, I honour you because of one quality thing I have discovered in you - though, I have not seen you in person. Does that mean worship? Telling Mary to pray for us is in order. Often time we tell our Pastors or any other person to pray for us because the prayer of the righteous is powerful in the sight of God and that of a sinner abominable. The Holy ones in heaven are our brothers and sisters hence we know there is another fellowship in heaven.

ebos,

ebos:

These Bible portions make up the Hail Mary. Luke 1 vs 29 and Luke 1 vs 42-45. But there are other portions that make up the mysteries as stated earlier in my posts. You can help read it back again.

I didn't ask for portions that "make up". I'm more interested in you posting the Hail Mary prayer, and then post all the words and verses that allign with the Hail Mary.

ebos:

Catholics do not WORSHIP or PRAY to Mary. Christians pray to God.

I know Catholics who PRAY to Mary - and they've tried to defend that "prayer". I would like you to let us know categorically if the Catholic Church does not regard the Hail Mary prayer as a prayer to MARY at all.

Cheers.

2 days and counting,and Pilgrim 1 hasn't answered my initial question

aha ms. pilgrim, i see you back on this, enjoyed reading ur write ups though

heck, had me a Catholic friend back then. once saw me with the book i used ta jot down messages, scribble verses, and generally write on a sermon. dude asked me what it was, i said 't was the book i used for Sunday school and sermons yada yada yada. dude breaks down into some mad laughter. what tha. . . .? he's like, "so una dey copy note for church". I was like "so, what of it?". Dude just kept on laffing and said they don't have time for that ish in the Catholic church.

This is the Hail Mary Prayer.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen!

Now, from the prayer, what is the worship there? We only say pray for us.
However, for some of the Catholics that pray or worship Mary, you cannot take the few ignorance and reconcile it with the true faith of what Catholics believe. If at all there is any Catholic that pray or worship Mary. Just to explain, whether una go believe at all, dat one - una sabi. I don even dey feel headache self.

Actually Roman Catholism is the mother of all other christian denomination. All other christains groups are splinter groups or sects of the Roman Catholic church.

The word catholic has it's roots in ancient Tamare (falsely called Africa) It was taken from the Sphinx which the Roman called the Holy Cat.

The Holy Cat laters was refered to as Cat holistic or Holistic Cat which later became your Roman Catholic.  

The Religion of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism are all fraud because they refuse to admit the source of their teachings, which is from Ta (earth)-Ma (Water)-Re (Sun) the ancient name of our land which the YORUBAS refered to as OLUDUMA-RE (pronounced Ray).

We the ancient Tamarean refered to the Sphinx as Pa Ruwty. Today is is falsely called Cat-holistic (Catholic).

Kuns, Am I right if i say you worship the Sun, Water and Earth?

@ everybody :

beyond reasonable doubt, whichever imaginable, i've come to the conclusion that Kuns is neurotic clown. Now, if it claimed that 3 hrs of watching Teletubbies can turn an adult's brain to liquid, then i seriously wonder what Kuns' watches. Hell, i wonder if it's truly liquid that is inside that cranium of his or mucus. whichever way, keep dropping 'em posts Kuns, i and my brother sure had a good time guffawing and laffing

PS: does anyone know the emergency no. for Yaba left?

gbade. x:

@ everybody :

beyond reasonable doubt, whichever imaginable, i've come to the conclusion that Kuns is neurotic clown. Now, if it claimed that 3 hrs of watching Teletubbies can turn an adult's brain to liquid, then i seriously wonder what Kuns' watches. Hell, i wonder if it's truly liquid that is inside that cranium of his or mucus. whichever way, keep dropping 'em posts Kuns, i and my brother sure had a good time guffawing and laffing

now thats awfully wicked. Did he snatch ur girlfriend? Dont castigat him for his position even if it dos not mak sense. Serious.

I-man:

2 days and counting,and Pilgrim 1 hasn't answered my initial question

The answers are ready. Do the simple thing and oblige me where in the BIBLE you find the Papcy system. WHY is that hard for you to do?

[list]
[li]The Catholic Church claims its origin dates back to the Apostles.[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]The Eastern Orthodox Church makes the same claim.[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Other Churches make the same claim as well.[/li][/list]

I have a reference point: let's begin with the PAPACY.

I-man, what's so difficult in that? 

@pilgrim.1

You post with the confidence a lack of knowledge brings.The Othordox Churches do not deny the Catholic's claims and vice versa. The Othordox Churches are the only Churches recognised by Catholicism.They too engage in what you may call "Mary worshipping" .

It still leaves unanswered the question I asked 2 days ago-How did the Catholic Church emerge?A simple question.

@I-man,

These people are good to ask questions about Catholic this and that, but they cannot answer any question from any any Catholic person. I have 1001 questions to ask but I'm just keeping my cool to avoid causing HBP. About the Beads, Palpacy, Mary Not Having other Children after Christ - I will address them maybe on Monday. I can only read now. These people really caused me headache here.

ebos:

@I-man,
These people are good to ask questions about Catholic this and that, but they cannot answer any question from any any Catholic person. I have 1001 questions to ask but I'm just keeping my cool to avoid causing HBP. About the Beads, Palpacy, Mary Not Having other Children after Christ - I will address them maybe on Monday. I can only read now. These people really caused me headache here.

I asked her the question 2 days ago.Instead of answering,she asked me where the Papacy is in the Bible.I am still waiting for her to answer the simple question.It feels like engaging in a debate with Muslims.

@I-man,

I-man:

You post with the confidence a lack of knowledge brings.

Thank you. If you had the confidence your knowledge brings you, why is it proving so difficult to demonstrate in finding the PAPACY in the Bible? Can you simply explain that, please?

I-man:

The Othordox Churches do not deny the Catholic's claims and vice versa.

Great. If I were discussing with someone from the Orthodox Church, I know what issues could be presented for discussion. I'm inviting you to consider a point of reference - WHERE in the Bible is the PAPACY?

I-man:

The Othordox Churches are the only Churches recognised by Catholicism.

Ah, good point, I-man, good point. The Catholic Church "recognizes" the Othodox Churches - and yet they are at each other's throat earlier on? What happened between them?

I-man:

They too engage in what you may call "Mary worshipping" .

Aye. In other words, since "they too" engage in that, are we to assume that the Catholic Church actually worships Mary?

I-man:

It still leaves unanswered the question I asked 2 days ago-How did the Catholic Church emerge?A simple question.

A simple question - you will find the answer in the PAPACY - how did that emerge?

That is the point of reference, I-man. WHAT really is the Catholic Church without the PAPACY?

pilgrim.1:

A simple question - you will find the answer in the PAPACY - how did that emerge?

Ok,the answer is in the Papacy.So tell me how the Papacy emerged because I obviously don't know.

ebos:

These people are good to ask questions about Catholic this and that, but they cannot answer any question from any any Catholic person.

There was NOT a single question YOU have offered me that I have NOT addressed in the other thread (the one on 666). NOT a single one!

ebos:

I have 1001 questions to ask but I'm just keeping my cool to avoid causing HBP.

You guys are funny. How many questions did you present in the other thread - and how many did I duck? How many questions have I asked HERE? How many of them have been addressed?

ebos:

About the Beads, Palpacy, Mary Not Having other Children after Christ - I will address them maybe on Monday. I can only read now. These people really caused me headache here.

Mary had other children after Jesus -

Matt. 13:55
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

Did you say Mary had no other children after Christ? Perhaps I-man could help you out.

I-man:

Ok,the answer is in the Papacy.So tell me how the Papacy emerged because I obviously don't know.

I've discussed this issue of the Papacy before; and my position is that it simply is NOT in the Bible. The Catholic Church has to tell us WHERE they copped it out from if actually it is in the Bible. Do you care to let us know?

If there's something that you don't agree with after visiting that link, please bring it forward or refer to - and let's talk about it.

Thank you.

Matt. 13:55
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

Did you say Mary had no other children after Christ? Perhaps I-man could help you out.

So Brethren or brothers literally and solely translates into siblings.I suppose the Bible was first written in the English Language. The confidence a lack. . . .  

I-man:

I asked her the question 2 days ago.Instead of answering,she asked me where the Papacy is in the Bible.I am still waiting for her to answer the simple question.It feels like engaging in a debate with Muslims.

This is NOT a Muslim debate - and if anything, you've characteristically employed their dribbling games here. If there's no point of reference for what you seek, what then is the question? That the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are EACH trying to outsmart one another on the same question of origin - we should all go back to that same point of reference - the BIBLE!

If that is too much for you, let me know. If you're fine with it, then I've said the PAPACY is simply NOT in the Bible - and I've discussed it before. If you argue otherwise, then please show me WHERE in the Bible I can find it!

WHAT is wrong with that, I-man?

I-man:

So Brethren or brothers literally and solely translates into siblings.I suppose the Bible was first written in the English Language. The confidence a lack. . . . 

Since they are NOT His brethren/siblings, please show us WHY, and also tell us the meaning of the word "brethren" as used in that context! 

- - -

Edited:

You could as well tell us the meaning of "His mother" in that verse has another meaning - since you intone that "brethren" mean something else.

pilgrim.1:

I've discussed this issue of the Papacy before; and my position is that it simply is NOT in the Bible. The Catholic Church has to tell us WHERE they copped it out from if actually it is in the Bible. Do you care to let us know?

If there's something that you don't agree with after visiting that link, please bring it forward or refer to - and let's talk about it.

Thank you.  

We know your position,but the question I asked yesterday wasn't-Whether you think the Papacy is in the Bible-but where/how the Catholic Church emerged from?

The link addresses the first question-which no one asked you- but fails to address the second question-which I asked.

I asked a simple question:

1What is The origin of Catholicism?

Your answer was:

2Where is the Papacy in the Bible?

How does No2 answer No1 ?  

I-man:

So Brethren or brothers literally and solely translates into siblings.I suppose the Bible was first written in the English Language. The confidence a lack. . . .

Could you consider this as well:

Mark 6:3

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."

I-man:

We know your position,but the question I asked yesterday wasn't-Whether you think the Papacy is in the Bible-but where/how the Catholic Church emerged from?

Do you have a problem with the PAPACY as my initial point of reference? If you do, let me know; and if so, WHY?

I-man:

The link addresses the first question-which no one asked you- but fails to address the second question-which I asked.

Same as above.

I-man:

I asked a simple question:

1What is The origin of Catholicism?

I don't know. My position, however, is that its claim of making PETER the first POPE is false! That is why the PAPACY is my point of reference.

I-man:

How does No2 answer No1 ? 

NO.2 is my point of reference to the origin of No.1.

HOW and WHY?

Here's HOW and WHY:

The Catholic Church is hard to defend today without a PAPACY system. As such, Catholics often like to speak of PETER as the FIRST POPE. The reason WHY I asked No.2 is to show precisely that PETER is NOT the first Pope - and that is HOW the claim to make him the first POPE does not stem from the Bible!

What is your problem with that? If you say otherwise, please let's see you defend the Papacy of Peter - whereas that is NOT in the Bible. When I said "I don't know" above, I merely indicated that I don't know where the Catholic Church got the PAPACY from the Bible or the Apostles.

So, please do show us WHERE the PAPACY emerged from, since you argue otherwise. If you say otherwise, please let's see you defend the Papacy of Peter - What is your problem with that?

About Mary having n other children will be on Monday. Nothing will make discuss it today. I will convince you, only if you will accept. I can only read all your posts now.

ebos:

About Mary having n other children will be on Monday. Nothing will make discuss it today. I will convince you, only if you will accept. I can only read all your posts now.

No problem - I'm open and willing to consider it whenever you present it.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

Since they are NOT His brethren/siblings, please show us WHY, and also tell us the meaning of the word "brethren" as used in that context! 

- - -

Edited:

You could as well tell us the meaning of "His mother" in that verse has another meaning - since you intone that "brethren" mean something else.

What does the Igbo term "nwanne" mean in English and how do you translate it?- Siblings?Relatives? The language spoken then was Aramaic-which uses "brother" like the Igbos would say "nwanne" without clearly delineating what type of relationship exists because there is no Aramaic term for cousins or step-brothers.e.t.c

The NT was written in Greek but the Greek term for "brother" like the Igbo term or the Aramaic term doesn't neccesarily translate to siblings

So only adherents of "new Churches" would take for granted "brother" or "brethren" as cast iron certainities of the type of relationships that exists.The confidence a lack of . . . .  

PS:When will you answer my question?

pilgrim.1:

I don't know.

Exactly!It was crystal clear to me that you don't know and that was why I made that point about your lack of knowledge  Enough said.That is all I wanted you to admit-That you don't know    Not knowing didn't stop you from arguing

pilgrim.1:

Could you consider this as well:

Mark 6:3

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."

Please, read down the bible verses of that Mark 6:3. Don't stop at verse 3. Read it down, you will get the points clear about that portion you quoted.

Hope you tackle her well.

ebos:

Please, read down the bible verses of that Mark 6:3. Don't stop at verse 3. Read it down, you will get the points clear about that portion you quoted.

Hope you tackle her well.

I don finish with am.See how long it took her to admit that she doesn't know the answer to one question.They fail to understand that the English Bible is a translation of a translation of a language.A Church that existed for 2 millenia-when there was no English Bible- will have a different perspective to a Church that was started recently.

all of una wey dey tok against catholic church lack of knowledge dey worri una.sorri