ChinenyeN:

I believe you and I are saying the same thing, with the exception of "chi ukwu". Though it is true that the various culture zones had a understanding of "supreme cosmic force/being", I wouldn't go so far as to say that they recognized it, or realized this understanding in terms of "chi ukwu". In the Ngwa/Ukwa culture zone, for instance, the introduction of the expression "chi ukwu" into our region is 100% credited to the Aro. We never use it as a culture. Our "chi ukwu" is/was Chileke, but we never understood Chileke within the context of "chi ukwu". The traditional concept of Chi is singular and did not incorporate an "ukwu" or complementary "nta" naming convention. Whether it was personal or cosmic, Chi was/is Chi. So we never had "chi ukwu".

If you ask me, the Aro invention of Chukwu was pretty revolutionary for the time-period. I tip my hat off to the Aro ancestors who fostered such a concept and the deity into existence. It really proved to the an effective business asset and even earned itself a notable position in the history of oracular trade. It might as well be the godparent of oracular trade.

The concept of Amadi is not the same throughout Igbo area. I know that for you, in Aro culture, amadi is freeborn. In my culture zone though (this holds true for communities from Mbaise to Echie and I believe Ikwere also), amadi is a social/political elite; an individual with substance and influence. The closest approximation in English would probably be a cross between "bureaucrat" and "nobleman". An amadi's behavior is typically considered "just" (people tend to translate it as "noble" ). At the same time, we also tend to culturally view the amadi as "ruthless". This is because amadi are versed in the norms, customs and laws of the community, and often times culturally play the role of community arbitrators. As arbitrators, they display their "just" side in the way they handle cases and display their "ruthless" side in how they deal with offenders and guilty parties. This is where "Amadiohna" (personification of justice) comes from. It is from this sense of amadi that "Amadiohna" was coined.

We also use amadi in a second sense to refer to a well-aged and respectable man in the community. Often times, we use the expression "okhe amadi" for this sense. Okhe Amadi is to us (the same Ngwa/Echie stretch) as Ichie title is to others.

I can't say how Amadiohna or the concept of amadi (which I'm not sure they actually have) made their way up north, but it would likely have been similar to how "chi ukwu" made its way across Igboland, through oracular trade. Echie oracular trade routed upward into Isu communities. It seems plausible that the displacement of several Isu communities and the establishment of Amadiohna oracular outposts (such as Igwekala) helped diffuse Amadiohna into the region.

Etche was not really involved in oracle. The Ozuzu people were Aros and they were also the ones that went up to Umunoha to establish Igwekala. That is the wide belief in Etcheland. Again, you seem to lean so much on the shared culture between Ngwa and Etche probably because of the Omuma side of Etche with Ngwa influence. Etche have more cultural similarity with Uratta(Ngor-Okpala-Owerri) and Ikwerre than with Ngwa. It can however be argued that the stretch of land from Owerri to Ndoki, Mbaise and Umuahia are kind of related.

Odenigbo Aroli:

The whole Of Igbo land and neigbhoring tribes used Nri invention and thats what i meant by influence. When you say Aro influence covered the whole of Igboland i want you to identify these influece for me. Is there even anything like Aro culture? The only thing we know about Aro is the story of their human selling and how they invaded unaware towns to kidnap humans and go sell human. Aro flourished during slave trade and soon after its destruction by the british her people migrated into the hinterland,settled and was absorbed by more superior groups like Nri. I have told you that a group called Ukpabi settled in Umuoji in the late 18th century but they were absorbed by the Nri and today they are known as "Umuobia". Please,its an insult to even think of comparing Nri and Aro. Its a sin to do that. Nri culture is prestigious and a noble one. Culturally,what has Aro given to Igboland? ??

Honestly, it escapes me why you continue to speak in such an obnoxious manner that smacks of pure disrespect and ignorance. It seems as if the deeper we go into this conversation, the more you display your inherent lack of understanding and ignorance on anything and everything non-Nri and non-Anambra, especially Aro culture and society.

The sad part is that you can't even differentiate the Aro from the Abam. The Abam (along with their Ohafia and Abiriba neighbors) were responsible for many of the sporadic raids and invasions that took place in northern and southern Igboland. The Aro, on the other hand, were businesspeople who were most interested in establishing commercial relationships and establishing trading centers. Through strategic marriages, business alliances, and of course, the legal and law enforcement traditions upheld by the Ekpe and Okonko institutions, the Aro became the main powerbrokers in the hinterland trade network.

For your information, the British did not destroy Aro. They simply occupied Arochukwu in order to dislodge Ibini Ukpabi (which is still intact, today) and its oligarchy of priests from power. There was never any postcolonial absorption of Aro peoples by anybody, not to talk of distant Nri.

http://books.google.com/books?id=n0lI5c9trSAC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA124&dq=aro+slave+trade&output=html_text

According to the above document, Eze Nri Ewelana placed a "curse" on the Abam (who were inflicting terrible losses in northern Igboland) and subsequently on their Aro friends (who seemed to draw benefits from the Abam raids), making it it no longer an offense to kill Aro and Abam people. I believe this is the reason why the Aro were disliked in Nri lands, and equally why Abam raids were fiercest there. At the same time, that's no excuse for you to act senselessly.

ChinenyeN:

I believe you and I are saying the same thing, with the exception of "chi ukwu". Though it is true that the various culture zones had a understanding of "supreme cosmic force/being", I wouldn't go so far as to say that they recognized it, or realized this understanding in terms of "chi ukwu". In the Ngwa/Ukwa culture zone, for instance, the introduction of the expression "chi ukwu" into our region is 100% credited to the Aro. We never use it as a culture. Our "chi ukwu" is/was Chileke, but we never understood Chileke within the context of "chi ukwu". The traditional concept of Chi is singular and did not incorporate an "ukwu" or complementary "nta" naming convention. Whether it was personal or cosmic, Chi was/is Chi. So we never had "chi ukwu".

If you ask me, the Aro invention of Chukwu was pretty revolutionary for the time-period. I tip my hat off to the Aro ancestors who fostered such a concept and the deity into existence. It really proved to the an effective business asset and even earned itself a notable position in the history of oracular trade. It might as well be the godparent of oracular trade.

The concept of Amadi is not the same throughout Igbo area. I know that for you, in Aro culture, amadi is freeborn. In my culture zone though (this holds true for communities from Mbaise to Echie and I believe Ikwere also), amadi is a social/political elite; an individual with substance and influence. The closest approximation in English would probably be a cross between "bureaucrat" and "nobleman". An amadi's behavior is typically considered "just" (people tend to translate it as "noble" ). At the same time, we also tend to culturally view the amadi as "ruthless". This is because amadi are versed in the norms, customs and laws of the community, and often times culturally play the role of community arbitrators. As arbitrators, they display their "just" side in the way they handle cases and display their "ruthless" side in how they deal with offenders and guilty parties. This is where "Amadiohna" (personification of justice) comes from. It is from this sense of amadi that "Amadiohna" was coined.

We also use amadi in a second sense to refer to a well-aged and respectable man in the community. Often times, we use the expression "okhe amadi" for this sense. Okhe Amadi is to us (the same Ngwa/Echie stretch) as Ichie title is to others.

I can't say how Amadiohna or the concept of amadi (which I'm not sure they actually have) made their way up north, but it would likely have been similar to how "chi ukwu" made its way across Igboland, through oracular trade. Echie oracular trade routed upward into Isu communities. It seems plausible that the displacement of several Isu communities and the establishment of Amadiohna oracular outposts (such as Igwekala) helped diffuse Amadiohna into the region.

I see. I appreciate the richly detailed response. However, it seems as if I am still not through with my investigations on Amadiora. The more we progress, the more intriguing it all sounds.

Perhaps a northern Igbo could help us here.

odumchi:

I see. I appreciate the richly detailed response. However, it seems as if I am still not through with my investigations on Amadiora. The more we progress, the more intriguing it all sounds.

Perhaps a northern Igbo could help us here.

There are many Aro settlements in Northern Igboland. Any settlement that starts with "Ndi" is more or less Aro settlement. I believe "Ndi" was an Igbo translation of the Ibibio "Ikot".

Abagworo:

There are many Aro settlements in Northern Igboland. Any settlement that starts with "Ndi" is more or less Aro settlement. I believe "Ndi" was an Igbo translation of the Ibibio "Ikot".

I didn't say there weren't.

Odumchi,onye ka I na akpo "senseless" ? Nwokem,dokwaa onwe gi ka ogwu!

According to you "Okhe amadi" is used to describe a well respectable aged man in Ngwa/Etche axis and you likened it to "Ichie",which is misleading." Ichie" in Nri tradition is someone who has not only taken the Ozo title but has also taken the eminence status of the institution. When one reaches this level their red hat is decorated with multiple feathers and they must have the "Okike"(elephant tusk),they must have a scarification on their arms nor leg and a thread around their ankle. This is when one becomes an "Ndichie". Its way different from being an aged and respectable man.
Nwa Ngwa take note.

In another vein,"Amadi" is also an Nze na Ozo name and we greet one of my uncle by that name. We say "Amadi ndi ichie" because he is an "Ichie". Its probably where the honor that is alluded to the name originated from. I see Nri influence actually went all the way to the coastal line. Keep lieing to yourself..Onye bu onye uzo wee sibe ite na akia enwe ngwo-ngwo agha...Ani Nri di uso.

odumchi:

You're right. The Delphic "Chukwu Abiama" is intrinsically related to Aro, so therefore "Chukwu" came to be associated with Aro through Aro dealings and Ibini Ukpabi. When we Aro desire to refer to God as an all-knowing prophetic being who, as chief arbitrator of all conflicts, holds all the knowledge in the universe, we call Him "Chukwu". When we choose to describe his more remote and estranged characteristics, we refer to him as "Obasi". What I've realized is that although Chi Ukwu is not exactly an Aro brainchild, in the centuries prior to the missionaries, it was used to refer to the case-settling deity that was believed to reside at Arochukwu.

Let's imagine a scenario. Let's say you and I were farmers who lived in the Ngwa zone sometime in the mid 19th century, and for several years, we have been disputing a particular stretch of land. Now, I then threaten to take our case to "Chukwu" in Arochukwu. Once I mention "Chukwu", you understand that I am making reference to the Aro deity in particular even though our own people's supreme god, Chiokike/Chileke, is also recognized chi ukwu. In other words, in the various culture zones, there are various chi ukwu, but in Aro there is only one Chukwu. I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

And thanks for the clearup on Amadioha. What I'd like to know now are the exact means through which Amadioha and the whole concept of amadi and ohu/oru reached areas of the north that are supposedly under Nri cultural influence.

Point of correction,mister, we don't know what is Amadioha until recently,post colonial to be exact. Most northern Igbo town worshipped the "ogwugwu" deity. Example "ogwugwu" Omenani of Onicha,"ogwugwu" akpu of Okija. Yes,that famous and powerful shrine in Okija is an "Nri" deity.I can tell you that the whole Northern Igbo(Anambra,Enugu,Anioma parts of Imo and Ebonyi) never worshipped Amadioha nor Ubinu ukpabi. Case closed.

And the concept of "chukwu" came to us through the missionaries and I can tell you that it wasn't because there is some Oracle in Arochukwu called Ubinu ukpabi. We northern Igbo used "Chi" prior to the coming of the missionaries. And when the missionaries brought christianity we refered to almighty God as "Olisebuluwa",Chukwu,Chineke and so on.

NRI PRIEST:

Point of correction,mister, we don't know what is Amadioha until recently,post colonial to be exact. Most northern Igbo town worshipped the "ogwugwu" deity. Example "ogwugwu" Omenani of Onicha,"ogwugwu" akpu of Okija. Yes,that famous and powerful shrine in Okija is an "Nri" deity.I can tell you that the whole Northern Igbo(Anambra,Enugu,Anioma parts of Imo and Ebonyi) never worshipped Amadioha nor Ubinu ukpabi. Case closed.

If Amadiora is foreign to Idemili, how come Amadiora existed in Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart" (which is set in Idemili)?

Besides, the word "Amadiora" itself is even northern since southern groups don't say "ora".

NRI PRIEST: Odumchi,onye ka I na akpo "senseless" ? Nwokem,dokwaa onwe gi ka ogwu!

M kwuviere onu, k'o I nuu ihe m si?

Nwa Nri take am easy!Your neigbhours can be paying you homage as you desire but don't push it further...Umu Bende don't know where Nri is talkless of influencing our culture.Igbo people are still evolving as a nation your campaign to claim very single Igbo cluture as Nri invention is laughable...meanwhile your neighbours are pointing fingers that you are new arrivals to their Land.

NRI PRIEST: According to you "Okhe amadi" is used to describe a well respectable aged man in Ngwa/Etche axis and you likened it to "Ichie",which is misleading." Ichie" in Nri tradition is someone who has not only taken the Ozo title but has also taken the eminence status of the institution. When one reaches this level their red hat is decorated with multiple feathers and they must have the "Okike"(elephant tusk),they must have a scarification on their arms nor leg and a thread around their ankle. This is when one becomes an "Ndichie". Its way different from being an aged and respectable man.
Nwa Ngwa take note.

NRI PRIEST: In another vein,"Amadi" is also an Nze na Ozo name and we greet one of my uncle by that name. We say "Amadi ndi ichie" because he is an "Ichie". Its probably where the honor that is alluded to the name originated from. I see Nri influence actually went all the way to the coastal line. Keep lieing to yourself..Onye bu onye uzo wee sibe ite na akia enwe ngwo-ngwo agha...Ani Nri di uso.

Not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of what I said, and are instead veering off on a tangent. I'm not even going to waste my time on you anymore, until you actually care to hold a discussion and not an argument.

Abagworo:

Etche was not really involved in oracle. The Ozuzu people were Aros and they were also the ones that went up to Umunoha to establish Igwekala. That is the wide belief in Etcheland. Again, you seem to lean so much on the shared culture between Ngwa and Etche probably because of the Omuma side of Etche with Ngwa influence. Etche have more cultural similarity with Uratta(Ngor-Okpala-Owerri) and Ikwerre than with Ngwa. It can however be argued that the stretch of land from Owerri to Ndoki, Mbaise and Umuahia are kind of related.

I know Etche as a group was not involved, but Ozuzu was, and Ozuzu constitutes a part of Etche. As for Ozuzu and the suppose Aro link, I've heard of that. I have my reservations about it. Also, I've never been in the business of comparing Uratta/Etche affinity with Ngwa/Etche affinity. I'm not familiar with Uratta, so very rarely do I mention them, but I will mention Etche, because I'm much more familiar with them and I am largely aware of the cultural and historical affinity between they and Ngwa and even Ikwere and Ngwa.

The many lies of the Igboukwu people,Nri was never Igala,what an intresting rebuttal http://www.igbofocus.com/html/nri_is_the_focus_in_igbo_.html

salam001: The many lies of the Igboukwu people,Nri was never Igala,what an intresting rebuttal http://www.igbofocus.com/html/nri_is_the_focus_in_igbo_.html

Kaaaaabooooom! Laugh wan tear my belle! Nwanne,na eziokwu,nwata adi ebu nnia uzo amuta diokpa! Onye obuna sili na Ana Nri adiria mma nya gupu onwie na Igbo....Umu Nri di uso! Deme nu!

NRI PRIEST:

Kaaaaabooooom! Laugh wan tear my belle! Nwanne,na eziokwu,nwata adi ebu nnia uzo amuta diokpa! Onye obuna sili na Ana Nri adiria mma nya gupu onwie na Igbo....Umu Nri di uso! Deme nu!

its high time we nip this "Nri from Igala" nonsense in its bud maka na Busu si na ife me na o yuo Nsi o jiri aja kpochie ya bu maka na o diro a fia aru,ife mmadu a ho ife onye ozo
if we keep mute,the lie will spread as fact

Salam,from that article you posted I was made to understand that it was Oraeri that probably owned the metal works that were unearthed at Igbo-ukwu. You see Onwuejeogwu wrote extensively on the connection and of the excavation site and Nri and most of "ndi osu imi" that are attacking me here know the truth. Abagworo has always quoted Onwuejeogwu but today he is posting contradictory articles. Jealousy is a disease!

NRI PRIEST: Salam,from that article you posted I was made to understand that it was Oraeri that probably owned the metal works that were unearthed at Igbo-ukwu. You see Onwuejeogwu wrote extensively on the connection and of the excavation site and Nri and most of "ndi osu imi" that are attacking me here know the truth. Abagworo has always quoted Onwuejeogwu but today he is posting contradictory articles. Jealousy is a disease!

Igboukwu or Igbonkwo people believe they existed before Nri and the artifact on which Nri was dated to 9th centurey AD was unearthed at Igbonkwo. Nri people have an undeniable place in emergent Igbo culture but not in Igbo origin. Like I've always maintained, there was no Igbo ethnic group as recently as 1900 and most Igbos are not originated from same source and nothing can change that. There is nothing like absolute Igbo culture per say which any group can lay claim to. Even the languages are quite divergent and an Nri man cannot understand Owerri or Ngwa or Abiriba or Ezza.

Abagworo:

Igboukwu or Igbonkwo people believe they existed before Nri and the artifact on which Nri was dated to 9th centurey AD was unearthed at Igbonkwo. Nri people have an undeniable place in emergent Igbo culture but not in Igbo origin. Like I've always maintained, there was no Igbo ethnic group as recently as 1900 and most Igbos are not originated from same source and nothing can change that. There is nothing like absolute Igbo culture per say which any group can lay claim to. Even the languages are quite divergent and an Nri man cannot understand Owerri or Ngwa or Abiriba or Ezza.

"believed they existed before Nri" without any any single landmark to prove their belief. By the way research has proved that the land in which the Igboukwu people live in today was formerly the ancentral land of the Ora-Eri people. The Igboukwu folks,moreover,they(Igboukwu) openly admitted that the land was formerly an Oraeri land.The said land was taken through conquest. The traditions Igboukwu practice today is the Nri traditions. I dont know why the are trying to expose themselves. Not smart.

Odenigbo Aroli:

"believed they existed before Nri" without any any single landmark to prove their belief. By the way research has proved that the land in which the Igboukwu people live in today was formerly the ancentral land of the Ora-Eri people. The Igboukwu folks,moreover,they(Igboukwu) openly admitted that the land was formerly an Oraeri land.The said land was taken through conquest. The traditions Igboukwu practice today is the Nri traditions. I dont know why the are trying to expose themselves. Not smart.

nwannem leave those guys to do their discussion. We're not the same with them really.

Igbo is an amalgamation of different groups of people yet no traces of dead languages....wonderful!, nri influence does not reach imo & abia Yet there is eke,oye,afor,nkwo which is nri an invention in imo and abia....miracle, awka is not an nri settlement yet out of the 33 villages in awka today, one of them is UMUERI by name....funny, igbo people are of diverse origin yet common anscestral names like nkwerre/nkwelle,ifite/ihite,onicha etc ran across igboland....hilarious!. They keep talking about diverse igbo culture but could not provide one good example of it if not iwa ji/ifejioku and ikeji(which is the same ), nze na ozo and ekpe(a foreign culture which has it's root outside south-east). Nri priest please leave these guys to do their discussion. Their minds are fixed somewhere.

Antivirus92: Nri priest please leave these guys to do their discussion. Their minds are fixed somewhere.

Inyi za ebe a puo ngwangwa!

When it befits you to analyze your position in Igbo affairs as one of shareholders and not one of landlords, then can we make progress. But as for now, things will remain as is.

By the way, I'm still wondering why Nri has refused to answer my question about why Amadiora was mentioned in "Things Fall Apart", even though he claims it didn't exist in the north.

odumchi:

Inyi za ebe a puo ngwangwa!

When it befits you to analyze your position in Igbo affairs as one of shareholders and not one of landlords, then can we make progress. But as for now, things will remain as is.

By the way, I'm still wondering why Nri has refused to answer my question about why Amadiora was mentioned in "Things Fall Apart", even though he claims it didn't exist in the north.

why are you contradicting urself? Maybe achebe made a mistake. We're not the same people,we have diverse culture and origin so why should we have one god;amadioha/amadiora?. Have ever heard that ijaw and ibibio though in the same ss have one god?

Yes, i talk about igbo things with pride and as a land lord because that's what i was made to understand. I am an igbo and my fore-fathers founded the igbo and its cultures/traditions. I am not a foreigner from bini like onitsha people or other southern people. I don't really give a damn about the behaviours of you guys, you're on ur own. One thing i will like u guys to know is that we have grown past "this people claim to migrate from here or there" where as it does not reflect in the language and culture of the people in question.

Antivirus92: Yes, i talk about igbo Oraukwu things with pride and as a land lord because that's what i was made to understand. I am an Igbo and my fore-fathers founded the Igbo Idemili and its cultures/traditions.[s] I am not a foreigner from bini like onitsha people or other southern people. I don't really give a damn about the behaviours of you guys, you're on ur own. One thing i will like u guys to know is that we have grown past "this people claim to migrate from here or there" where as it does not reflect in the language and culture of the people in question[/s].

Made a few necessary corrections...

Antivirus92: why are you contradicting urself? Maybe achebe made a mistake. We're not the same people,we have diverse culture and origin so why should we have one god;amadioha/amadiora?. Have ever heard that ijaw and ibibio though in the same ss have one god?

Talk about contradiction!
So it's now that you want to play that "we have diverse cultures and origins" card? Ochi egbuole m wo!

odumchi:

Talk about contradiction!
So it's now that you want to play that "we have diverse cultures and origins" card? Ochi egbuole m wo!

i thought that you are wise but ... I just made that statement to ridicule you, you claim that we have diverse culture and origin yet you're trying to know why nri priest rejected your amadiora!

odumchi:

Made a few necessary corrections...

then all of this ur thread should be deleted and the title be changed to "arochukwu culture" because every thing in it is of arochukwu(ibibio) and not igbo. I will say it again, my anscestors founded the igbo and it's cultures/traditions.

Antivirus92: then all of this ur thread should be deleted and the title be changed to "arochukwu culture" because every thing in it is of arochukwu(ibibio) and not igbo. I will say it again, my anscestors founded the igbo and it's cultures/traditions.

If you had read one of my earlier posts in which I admitted that I was biased in my perspective, you wouldn't have made that statement. It's nearly impossible to make a thread about "Igbo culture" without exhibiting some partiality or bias. The only way to make a truly "Igbo" thread this is to include components of all of the subcultures from Ukwuani to Arochukwu and Nsuka to Ikwere.

Antivirus92: i thought that you are wise but ... I just made that statement to ridicule you, you claim that we have diverse culture and origin yet you're trying to know why nri priest rejected your amadiora!

Amadiora isn't mine. According to Chinua Achebe, it's yours. Since none of you have bothered to provide any substantial evidence to dispel that, I'm forced to maintain my belief.

Bwahahaha. . .Ndi Igbo di egwu.
Picking a few things from this thread though.No comment @ all the funny inputs