Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved - Islam for Muslims (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 9:38pm On Jan 10, 2012 |
^^^^^ I wonder whether you have ever reasoned beyound what you handlers in the church tell you to think? have you ever wondered: 1. why did Jesus pray to God to let the cup pass over him? 2. why did Jesus asked for swords after his failed coup against the jewish oligarchs? 3. why did Jesus shout out of frustration 'My lord, my lord, why have thou forsaken me? 4. that Jesus sjoute dthe above indicated clearly he expected God to save him from his cruel faith. 5. Again have ever wondered why God did not save Jesus after his "begotten" son begged to be saved? there are many more wonderment that people that think, reason and ponder would have wondered. but I leave you with these few question and conclude that the above sequence clearly showed that Jesus never intended to die for you wicked sins! |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 10:10pm On Jan 10, 2012 |
Its still Dsame thing, ur conclusion is based on false revelation of the self claimed prophet. No matter how u twist it. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 10:35pm On Jan 10, 2012 |
^^^^^ Good you confirmed you do not reason! before you go criticise other religion with your weak intellect, you should consider fixing the numerous portholes that christianity have thrown on you, imagine anybody worshipping a man whose prayer and cry for help was rejected by his lord! this sort of believes can hardly be differentiated from the confusions of paganism! |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 12:28am On Jan 11, 2012 |
Vedaxcool, this argument that a man could not save himself is weak. Jesus (God in the flesh) was man and God. Interchangeably he was referred to as Son of Man and Son of God. You admit that He died on the cross because He could not save Himself. But your quran denies it. Which is it? All accounts and prophecy recorded this even, secular historians! Eyewitnesses saw this and that cannot be denied. Even the centurions that were at the crucifixion after the earth shook admitted that surely this man was truly the Son of God. The multitudes that He healed and taught admitted this, the demons recognised Him as the Son of God, the Pharisees and Sadducees and a lot of the people had a reason to want to put Him to death because of this. Whose report do you believe? You believe the companions of your prophet who recorded his sayings in the form of the hadiths. The ones you like you accept and those you don't like you reject. But these you rely on so heavily. Why not the reports of the eyewitnesses of Matthew, John and Mark (disciples) and Luke who wrote to most likely a highly placed Roman official in those times (Theophilus) Luke 1:1-3 as well as the book of Acts 1:1 When he went on the cross "He was obedient" even until death. His human nature was talking when He prayed to ask God the father to let the cup pass over Him but that His father's will be done. He knew the bigger picture. Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, seeing we also are compassed about by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. The bolded (witnesses) saw it and recorded it and it was established and not the revelation of one "prophet" 2 Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. I know you guys do not like Apostle Paul Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sins: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Qur'an (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses (to adultery), flog them, " Qur'an (24:13) - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah." So if four witnesses are to establish a violation case against a woman in Islam, why can we not have many witnesses (multitudes) who witness that Christ was crucified and appeared after resurrection? Four books of the gospel plus numerous eyewitnesses and not report of about 600 years later. We are all thinking people let us use our head. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 1:24am On Jan 11, 2012 |
@pro212 this isn't a case of witnesses reporting what they saw.do you know why?you are claiming that companions or contemporaries of Jesus witnessed the alleged crucifixion.but that is not true.the bible says: Mark 14:50 "And they all forsook him and fled". so really,if those who are reporting an alleged event did not witness the event then how are we to judge such a report?we can rightly say they have reported what they heard and others heard or concluded to have happened without seeing what happened.people saw and heard Jesus (as) arrested and sentenced to die by crucifixion.what happened thereafter is speculation if "they forsook him and fled". furthermore,what makes the Muslim position even more heartaching for the christian is the reality of history and fact that not all early christians believed Jesus was killed.the issue of denying Jesus "crucifixion" started with christians themselves and not with the coming of Muhammad (sa).the doctrine of "atonement" and the alleged "crucifixion" and "resurrection" of Jesus were concluded and imposed as the prevailing beliefs of christianity as was the trinity by Athanasius by the roman catholic church and the early church fathers who held sway in the roman empire with political authority to persecute others with "heretical views".i will present those views in my subsequent post.and feel free to ask me for any evidence to any claim i make if you have any doubt on my word. moreover,how are we even sure that the new testament accounts are true?from the new testament we find instance(s) where Jesus himself never told anyone he would die for them: "Jesus Never Told Anyone He Will Die For Them"! https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-735489.0.html what even makes the accounts of the alleged crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus more suspicious and worth discarding are the inconsistent and contradictory accounts the four "gospels" given on the same event: "The Christian Resurrection Myth"! https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739850.0.html now,this is all said without taking into account that the authors of the new testament books particularly the four "gospels" written 40 to 50 years after Jesus and included in the bible by the early roman catholic church are anonymous.this is not my word but what christian bible scholars have said: "Half Of The New Testament Was Forged" - Bible Scholar https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687029.0.html if we are even to accept that the names given to the four "gospels" are the men who wrote those books,we can at least confidently agree that those men only partially authored those books and not completely based on internal evidence from the books themselves!!!also we have not taken into consideration contradictions. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 1:32am On Jan 11, 2012 |
Many early Christian sects did not believe Jesus was crucified. Jesus laughed with joy "Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all. Those, then, who know these things have been freed from the principalities who formed the world; so that it is not incumbent on us to confess him who was crucified, but him who came in the form of a man, and was thought to be crucified, and was called Jesus, and was sent by the Father". (The Church Father Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Chapter XXIV.-Doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides) Notice how Iranaeus says “through ignorance and error” the Jews misapprehended, and crucified the wrong person. Amazingly, the Holy Quran harmonizes this account, stating that they follow error, conjecture, and ignorance: "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not": (Al-Quran 4:157) The 1945 discovery of Gnostic texts at Nag Hammadi, Egypt unearthed a book called The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, where Jesus states: "I did not succumb to them as they had planned. [/b]But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their [b]error and blindness, [/b]since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were[b] deaf and blind. [/b]But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. [b]It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. [/b]It was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. [b]And I was laughing at their ignorance". (The Treatise of the Great Seth) “There are also several[b] historical sources [/b]other than the Bible and the Qur'an which confirm that many of the early Christians did not believe that Jesus died on the cross, The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified, The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place”.[/b] (Jesus Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Ahmed Thompson, 1996 (revised edition. p47) [i]“… Plotinus, who lived in the fourth century, tells us that he had read a book called The Journies of the Apostles which related the acts of Peter, John, Andrew, Thomas and Paul. Among other things, it stated that Jesus was not crucified, but another in his place, and therefore, he laughed at those who believed that they had crucified him”. (ibid, Jesus Prophet of Islam, 1991 edition. P. 37) |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 1:39am On Jan 11, 2012 |
proo212: my plea to you, is please use some atoms of common sense in analyzing the issues at hand, you reliance on unreasonable statements will get you nowhere, Jesus identity is clearly different from God, you simply confuse yourelf by claiming that Jesus is God, and then son of God, does the word you utter make any sense to you? which is it is Jesus God or son of God? or son of Man? and using simple common sense, it is absolutely clear that Jesus could not even do without God, as he said, by myself I can do nothing,as long as you are willing to be honest with yourself, any truthful person will not call such an individual God! and it becomes clear that Jesus begged God in the bible, pls let this cup pass over me, and when the cup failed to pass over him, he shouted in despair my lord my lord why have thou forsaken me! this showed Jesus could not save himself, whether you agree or not anyone willing to reason things out would agree that he could not save himself talkless of saving humanity from sin! proo212: I admit what exactly? that Jesus could not help himself based on the accounts of the bible, the Qur'an is not on trial, I asked a series of questions which clearly showed I reject his alleged cruxifixion , so confusing yourself to prove what exactly I do not know! The Accounts of the bible contradicts history and commonsense, nobody reads an account without understanding it clearly, if you have read gospel of barnabas, Jesus was shown not to have been cruxcified, even Pharisees doubted his alleged cruxifixion, as from Historical antecedents,no man dies in the cruxifixion so quickly, Plato even marveled whether he had died! proo212: lol! you say Mathew, Mark etc were eyewitnesses really, remeber that mark said at the critical juncture, all Jesus disciples foorssook him and fled. I ask what is the implication of these? Jesus Disciples never witness his cruxifixion since they forsook him and fled, baring the fact the the 4 gospels came over a 100 yrs after Jesus! and according to James, Jesus prayer was accepted meaning God made the cup pass over him! proo212: You said he is God why is he obedient to another God? this are questions we expect you ask proo212: remember a man asked Jesus how can he make it to heaven, Jesus never replied believe I will die for your sins and then you will go to heaven, his response was, follow the commandments and heaven will be added unto thee, we ask again why this inconsistency? well the blood for sin is clearly Pauls Idea. Hence I ask do you follow Jesus or Paul? proo212: all this has been replied, the bible says they all forsook him and fled, meaning none of Jesus disciple had actually witness the whole proceeding instead they relied on hear-say account. And yes i do want to ask, why did jesus disguise himself after his alleged resurrection, the bible says because he was afraid of the jews, and yet he is suppose to have resurrected from the dead? Jesus said it is ordained for all men to die once after that judgement, why ask why did he avoid the jews all thru his "resurrection" remember you Christians claimed he made plenty prophecy to the jews that he was going to resurrect from the dead, yet after resurrecting he never returned to prove to the jews he has resurrected? the question is why? well using our head, we will simply conclude that he never died in the first place and simply faced the possibility of dying for real if he showed himself up to the Jews. and Sir this is using our heads "She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him". (Still John 20:15) |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 6:50am On Jan 11, 2012 |
Vedaxcool said i should use commonsense, Lagosshia concur on Mark 14:50 but they are the ones failing to use commonsense. When i read they all fled, i had to go back and read Mark 14 because i thought no one was there at Golgotha but it was when He was siezed to be taken before the high priests that they fled not when He was crucified. Can we see who is not using commonsense? Verse 54 says Peter followed not far behind and actually went into the palace of the high priest. Please teli me that Peter would not get the gist of what was happening in the palace of the high priest? There were witnesses when He was put on the cross Mark 15:40 says so because Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of Jesus and Salome were. Joseph of Arimathea a honourable council member took body not the body of Judas Ischariot because he and the centurions that gave him the body would have known who was crucified. You said I should use my commonsense to analyse the issues at hand. The issue at hand is that your quran said that Allah deceived them. That makes Allah a deceiver, liar! Lying is sin! If lying is sin, then Allah had no right to drive Adam and Eve out of paradise for the one sin they committed. One of the 99 names of Allah is the deceiver. But guess who was a liar and deceiver in the bible Satan (Lucifer) The issue of Christ being God makes absolute sense because that is the reason he was sent to the cross. You acknowledge He was sent to the cross, but you do not acknowledge the reason and you ask me to use commonsense!!! We are all educated people. The only reason you believe He was sent to the cross is because your quran acknowledges it. Gospel of Barnabas? Honestly Vedaxcool now I see your problems. Here is an excerpt from analysis of the "gospel" that was not canonized and we know why. This is pure lies and deception. Once again who is the author of lies and deception SATAN!!! Get thee behind me SATAN. 3. The Gospel of Barnabas and Islam The Gospel of Barnabas overwhelmingly supports the teaching of Islam. However, there are a few rare occasions when it does not. a/ The Messiah. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, and it never teaches that Muhammad is the Messiah: Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary (Qur'an 3:45, Pickthall). However, the Gospel of Barnabas denies that Jesus is the Messiah, and instead says Muhammad is the Messiah: Jesus confessed and said the truth, "I am not the Messiah". (chap. 42). Then said the priest: "How shall the Messiah be called?" , (Jesus answered) "Muhammed is his blessed name" (chap. 97). Both these ideas contradict the Qur'an. This is obviously the work of muslims trying to fit Mohammed in the bible at all costs. In order for you to tell what spirit is behind this a whole 222 chapters of lies. If this is what you believe, I pray earnestly for your souls. Once again I say, who is the liar and deceiver, SATAN. You talk of commonsense and you mention Gospel of Barnabas  |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 11:57am On Jan 11, 2012 |
what does "they all forsook him and fled" means? does "fleeing" away means standing by the corner and watching?that is not "forsaking" him!does fleeing from the trial and witnessing the alleged "crucifixion" all amount to "forsook him and fled"? no! so if that clause "they all forsook him and fled" means nothing to the christian,then the clause is only in the bible for decoration!!!i must then ask:who is lying?christians or their bible?what does "they all forsook him and fled" means? they "fled" to where?where did they fled to? how do you conclude they later witnessed it?let me also remind you that when Jesus was taken after the alleged crucifixion,the disciples did not know where he was.he appeared unto them and they were shocked and thus we have the narration that informs us of the "doubting Thomas"!!!there are so many points to conclude from the events reported to say that Jesus did not die!also,this is just one of the points i mentioned in my earlier post to show that christians like the Quran puts it ob the issue of "crucifixion","they only believe in conjecture"!!! i still want to be informed why did early christians with the lead of a major church father Iraneus disbelieved that Jesus died? there were early christian sects who had varying beliefs.there was no mainstream christian beliefs as we know of a few of them presently especially beliefs in the alleged "crucifixion" and "resurrection".this is information that christians in their majority do not know their history.early christian history tells us of sects that did not believe in doctrines that were imposed by the roman catholic fathers with political sway. here are verses in which Peter,the chief disciple of Jesus,denied Jesus thrice and used unbelieving expressions of disloyalty to save his own life.and we have you blindly wanting us to believe that he was standing somewhere watching the alleged "crucifixion"!!! Matthew 26:34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." Matthew 26:74 Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!" Immediately a rooster crowed. John 13:38 Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times! notice in the below narrration how Peter had to deny and disappear after he was accused of knowing Jesus.simply put after events surrounding the trial Peter fled.after the below incident would any sane person still hang around?!!!: John 18: Peter’s Second and Third Denials 25As Simon Peter stood warming himself, he was asked, “You are not one of his disciples, are you?” He denied it, saying, “I am not.” 26One of the high priest’s servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, challenged him, “Didn’t I see you with him in the olive grove?” 27Again Peter denied it, and at that moment a rooster began to crow. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 11:58am On Jan 11, 2012 |
what is the meaning of:"they all forsook him and fled"? [size=18pt]WHY DID THEY HAVE TO FLEE? AND WHERE DID THEY FLED TO ?[/size] |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 2:00pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
proo212: I am happy i have provoked you to think, to in the very least use sound common sense in analysing the, we can see who is not using common sense here was it peter that wrote the mark, mathew, John and luke? you claim this individuals were eye witness, where does peter fit in this gospel? I appeal that common sense be used in analysing the situations! proo212: did Peter write Mark, Mathew, Luke and John? common sense is all we ask to be applied here! proo212: None of the people you talk about wrote the account of the curxifixion,as long as common sense is not applied here we cannot help you! the writers of teh gospels clearly said they fled and forsook Jesus! in any sane court, any testimony that is based on hear say would have been thrown out immediately! On Gospel of Barnabas, use your common sense and tell us was it muslims that write the book or Christians? common sense tells us the latter are responsible for it! |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 10:56am On Jan 12, 2012 |
vedaxcool: Where where Muslims before Muhammed was 40yrs old? what God did the believers worship? U that believed that God existed only when Islam was created. You can keep ut faith but know ye that, all you Muslims are in the wide road that leads to the big gate to welcome you all. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 11:00am On Jan 12, 2012 |
plappville: have you ever heard of the word "hanif"? |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by ivoice247: 6:47pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
plappville: Muhammed(saw) did not bring Islam, islam was already existing. Islam is the only religion ordained by Allah(God) since the time of Adam. All prophets and messengers of God numbering over 124,000 were all Muslims including adam, noah(nuh), lot(lut) abraham(ibrahim), ishmael(ismail), ishaq(isaac), jacob(yakub), the 12 children of israel(sons of yaqub), solomon(suleiman), david (dawud), zacherius(zakariya), john the baptist (yahya), moses(musa), jesus (issa) and muhammed(saw); They all were muslims submitting to the WILL and worship of the one true GOD (allah). And this (Islam) was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya'qub (Jacob) (saying), "O my sons! Allah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as muslims - Islamic Monotheism)." ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132) Say, "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Îsa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #136) Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun . ( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #67) |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 9:23pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
plappville: The bolded simply proves my point that your weak intellect knows nothing of Islam, no muslim believes that rubbish, and the answers from invoice is sufficent for the wise. Since you have failed consistently to meet the challenge pf any of the questions directed at yo here are more where were christians before Jesus? what was salvation before christ allegedly died on the cross? Does n't Christianity condemns all humans that lived before the time that christ allegedly died on the cross? U believe that God only existed for the jews before christ, that in itself is a great failure for any religion, it would mean for years gone past God ignored all other tribes and race and only guided the jews, I ask using the smallest common sense you can muster wouldn't this be the greates injustice your perverse liars can accuse God of doing? |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 11:13am On Jan 13, 2012 |
what does "they all forsook him and fled" means? does "fleeing" away means standing by the corner and watching?that is not "forsaking" him!does fleeing from the trial and witnessing the alleged "crucifixion" all amount to "forsook him and fled"? They forsook him and fled when the officials and people came for Him. I really do not see any debate in this. Perhaps you can stay and fight with your bare hands when a might of soldiers come for your leader. What the disciples did was what was expected. It shows they were afraid because they were human. The point when they became emboldened is when they saw the risen Christ and Spirit (which is supposed to be your comforter) came upon them after ascension of Christ to Heaven in the book of Acts. The spirit gave them power and emboldened them and they did exploits. All these we read in the book of Acts and beyond. You are just looking to score a cheap point. If his followers did not allow Him to be seized there would be no mock trial, no crucifixion and no resurrection. (The Big Picture), you fail to see it. Prophecies would not be fulfilled. There so many prophecies in the Old Testament, he even prophecied His death in the new testament. Are you saying the will of God should not be done This will clearly confirm the prayer/statement that the cup hould pass over Him but let your will be done nd not my will.no! so if that clause "they all forsook him and fled" means nothing to the christian,then the clause is only in the bible for decoration!!!i must then ask:who is lying?christians or their bible?what does "they all forsook him and fled" means? they "fled" to where?where did they fled to? how do you conclude they later witnessed it?let me also remind you that when Jesus was taken after the alleged crucifixion,the disciples did not know where he was.he appeared unto them and they were shocked and thus we have the narration that informs us of the "doubting Thomas"!!!there are so many points to conclude from the events reported to say that Jesus did not die!also,this is just one of the points i mentioned in my earlier post to show that christians like the Quran puts it ob the issue of "crucifixion","they only believe in conjecture"!!! All of these is nonsense, the early church father, was he there at the time of crucifixion? Eyewitness reports say He was crucified. The people knew He was because that is what they asked for. Acts 4:20 said 20for we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard."Even the book of 1 John 2:22 has already answered the question before the “early church father” brought it up. These are obviously are not "church fathers" if they can question and deny the basic essence of their faith then they are equally liars and antichrists. Early Christian sects not believing in the doctrine of crucifixion and resurrection is not an issue for me but for them. They are religious and not Christian if they do not believe in the very essence of Christianity, so your point is moot. Other false doctrine that might have been introduced by the Roman Catholic Church is another dicussion for another day another topic. Here are verses in which Peter, the chief disciple of Jesus, denied Jesus thrice and used unbelieving expressions of disloyalty to save his own life, and we have you blindly wanting us to believe that he was standing somewhere watching the alleged "crucifixion"!!! Jesus Christ said he was going to deny 3 times and that is exactly what happened. This is one of the way that proved Jesus' divinity. There is no argument here. You are trying to score another cheap point. The Matthew 26:34 and John 13:38 you quoted has answered your question. He knew it before it happened. The same Peter and the other disciples defied the authorities to proclaim the risen Christ and suffered persecution for it but they were no deterred. How much more Apostle Paul who did not meet Jesus face to face but encountered the risen Christ on the way to Damascus suffered the same fate. The archenemy of the followers of Christ at the time and later became one of the people who God used to spread the gospel so you and I could hear it. There you have it my friend. Jesus Christ was crucified and is risen. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 12:06pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
proo212:ypu are wrong.you have no evidence to support your claim.your claim is purely supposition and it once more casts doubt into the "crucifxion" stories.when the offcials came to arrest him,we are told of how Peter struck one of the soldiers with his sword.they didnt run and hide at that point.they ran after Jesus was taken and was tried and thereafter.if you think there is no debate here,please show us verses at what point they "forsook him and fled" and when did they return.also,present us verses how they witnessed the actual "crucifixion" and not "hearsay reports on which all four gospels present inconsistent reporting. the book of Acts again was written by a non-eye witness.it was written by Paul who was not there.another cheap lie by you.you are presenting your beliefs and making them appear historical when they are not. i stated earlier and presented links to other topics on nairaland which show that Jesus was neither ready to die,was not expected to and never prophesied he would or to say the least contradictions to what you believe. there were people who did not believe in the crucifixion and they were christians.the event did not happen and what happened was shrouded in doubt.we are talking of early christians who did not believe in it. the pagan romans made it the "essence of the christian faith".so you are only following one line of christian belief.
you are just talking and talking and on and on and dreaming and claiming and narrating.this has nothing to do with what the facts are speaking here.i dont care what you think.treat the facts. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 12:19pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
You are a liar my friend. The Book of Acts was written Luke. He wrote to the same Roman official (Theophilus). Do your research properly. Prophecies showed that Jesus was going to die and suffer shame PROPHECY Matt 26:2 Jesus says, As you know, PASSOVER begins in two days, and the SON OF MAN WILL BE HANDED OVER TO BE CRUCIFIED. Luke 18:31-34 Taking the Twelve Disciples aside, Jesus said, Listen, we’re going up to Jerusalem, where all the Predictions of the Prophets concerning the Son of Man will come true. He will be handed over to the Romans, and He will be MOCKED, TREATED SHAMEFULLY, AND SPIT UPON. They will FLOG HIM WITH A WHIP AND KILL HIM, BUT ON THE THIRD DAY HE WILL RISE AGAIN. BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ANY OF THIS. THE SIGNIFICANCE WAS HIDDEN FROM THEM, AND THEY FAILED TO GRASP WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. FULFILLED Luke 24:44-46 After Jesus Died & Rose Again - Jesus said, When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” THEN JESUS OPENED THEIR MINDS TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES. And He said, Yes, it was WRITTEN LONG AGO THAT THE MESSIAH WOULD SUFFER AND DIE AND RISE FROM THE DEAD ON THE THIRD DAY. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 12:23pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
evidence below that the disciples did not witness the "crucifixion":
other readings from the four gospels show that after Jesus was allegedly taken down from the cross,non of his disciples were present.even where he was taken to was not known to them.Mary Magdalene who allgedly witnessed the "crucifixion" did not write any book.and she found the tomb empty where he was supposed to have being taken. at this point,lest anyone claim that Mark 14 verse 18 shows that Jesus died and resurrected,i should presented the following verse where it all seems that Jesus never even spoken the above in Mark 14 to his disciples who still didnt know where he was: Matthew 28:10 "Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." moreover,Jesus asked Mgdalene not to touch him.why? because he obviously was hurt in the events before and after he was sentenced!!!Jesus asked her not to touch him because "he is not yet ascended unto the father".what does that sentence mean?it means he was not yet dead and he was in flesh alive and hurt!!! John 20:10 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 12:33pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
Haba, It is amazing how much you can twist the words of God and the Bible. Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, also a noble official who was waiting for the Kingdom of God. He went and asked Pilate for the body of Christ. He had no motive behind it. The guards even guarded the tomb just to make sure His body would not be removed by His followers. All these were documented. If we do so much distortion of your quran you will crying blue murder. It will not work! The verses you quote are not rocket science and yet you still will twist |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 12:34pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
proo212:that is your traditional christian belief.but it does not take magic to see that Paul is the main actor in the book of acts.also,you cited the book of acts as detailing what happened.the book of acts explains what supposedly happened after the alleged crucifixion and not before or during.further,other than the books written by Paul,the other books of the new testatement are anomymous.their wirters are not known or confirmed.
you can bring a hundred account that Jesus said he would be killed.but that is not enough because there are contradictory statements and inconsistent stories and statements which would nullify and contradict what you cling on to.i keep telling you that you believe in conjecture as the Quran puts it on the "crucifixion and christians.christians believe in conjecture because they have no solid proof to support what they believe in.the Quran also tells us that Jesus was neither killed or crucified just as the early christians was a number among them who also denied the "crucifixion". from the below verse you can see Jesus never told anyone he would die for them.it was later they they came to know or as was supposed (the belief was made up later): John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 12:37pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
Please prove it to me that Paul wrote the book of Acts |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 12:40pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
proo212:the accounts in the new testament does not convincingly tell us Jesus died and rose.inconsistent and contradictory reporting cast doubt on the alleged events and show clearly that these stories were tailored to fit christian befeliefs that were imposed by the early fathers of the roman catholic church. Joseph of Arimathea asked for the body.let us even assume Jesus hung on the cross.was he dead? also,from the narrations,we see it was Simon of Cyrene that was crucified and not Jesus.it was the man who carried the cross that ended up nailed!Joseph of Arimathew's request for the body was obviously to conceal what had taken place. nontheless,i hope you now see that all this narrations clearly tell us that the disciples were no where close.so in other words they were narrating what they heard and not what they saw.that is also assuming they were actually the ones who wrote those narrations and not the roman church decades or centuries later to suit their tailored doctrines they could accept and decide. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 12:44pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
proo212: the author of the book of the book of acts is anonymous undoubtedly.examining it point to the direction of Paul being the author more than Luke as christians hold which is but a wishful thinking. please read more: http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/MYFormationofNEWTestamentv2.htm please examine this exhibit closely: http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/EXHIBITAv2.htm |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by proo212(m): 12:59pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
This is where I know you are actually talking drivel. In one vein, you say some roman Catholic church fathers did not believe and in another vein you say it was tailored to suit he church fathers. Like you often say on this forum, bring me the proof! Manuscripts are available of the old and new testament. It was not memorized by people or written on donkeys/camel like some books we have heard about. How about your books that some of the memorizers died with the portion they got from your prophet? We will never know what hey memorized but for you that is not an issue. Your book is preserved!!! From scholarship there about 5600 copies of the new testament manuscripts yet they are unreliable or forged (time span between when they were written and made available about a 100 years) but other works older than the new testatment like Aristotle and Plato which between the time written and time of discovery (1200 - 1400years)and the like that have between 7 and 50 copies are more accurate abi? Amazing that people do not question the works of these people but the words of God are always questioned. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 2:22pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
ivoice247: I see, no wonder Jesus said they will do great signs and wonders, Up to brainwashing the world that Islam was in the origin uhmmm, very interesting. I thank God because, Satan can only decieve the very elects who do not consistantly hold on to the words of Christ. Even Jesus who never surported multiple wives , while Muhammed openly decleared in the Quran that a man may have a minimum of FOUR wives , yet u boldly claim the both are in same faith but contradict each other doctrine. I present to you this varse that qualifies Muhammed and his religion. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The Quranic verses u qouted above will sure decieve the [bLUKEWARMED ]VERY ELECTED CHRISTIANS[/b]. NOT ME, JESUS WAS NEVER A MURDERER,ADULTROUS, R.APIST ETC ETC, SO HE WAS NOT A MUSLIM. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 3:05pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
vedaxcool: Christ was in the Begining (John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.and Christianity means followers of Christ ,and His Teaching. Jesus brought a doctrine that even the people abserved its level of change from the old one. (Mark 1:27) And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. (Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said to them[b] in his doctrine,[/b] This is Jesus who was in the begining. The Earlies faith would be Adam and Eve there which Judaism arised. We were made to know that Abel was the first true worshipper, He worshiped God in Spirit and in truth, and offered best sacriface that pleased God. Abraham, also willing to, sacriface his only son, ISAAC. He is a Friend of God because he believed God, and was consider a righteous man. all these were in the OT days. AGAIN, Jesus was with the Father in the Creation. So U can see that Christianity, did not get is start after Jesus death only, It was already existed, in the beginning, of the creation. So Christianity just mean the way , or followers of Christ. There was and nothing like Islam in the bible apart from the self claimed revelation book Quran that changed everything to suit its faith. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by LagosShia: 5:13pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
proo212:you obviously dont understand what you are reading.the fathers that held sway in the roman empire imposed their doctrines.one such was Athanasius.his opposnent was Arius.he preached "Arianism" he was opposed to trinitarian belief.Iraneus was opposed to the "crucifixion" belief.you see that even among the early church fathers themselves there was split.likewise there were sects who held different beliefs in christianity.this is history.read it. the Prophet (sa) had over 40 scribes who were learned that would write the Quranic revelation under his supervision.so your claim is ridiculous and that of a loser.
the works of Aristole and Plato can be examined and refuted.they are not regarded as "holy word of God".but the bible is.that is why when we apply similar approach on the bible you disagree with us. you presented verses where Jesus is said to have told his disciples he would die and rise.but there is one verse in John where the disciples after the alleged "crucifixion" do not look like people who knew what would happen: John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 7:33pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
from @LagosSia;you presented verses where Jesus is said to have told his disciples he would die and rise.but there is one verse in John where the disciples after the alleged "crucifixion" do not look like people who knew what would happen: Of course the disciples had no expectation of Jesus Christ rising from the dead. We read that that, His disciples on the road to the Emmaus said in reference to Jesus, Luke 24:21)But we hoped that it was he who should have redeemed Israel: and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done. ,” The Bible says their faces were downcast, it shows they were depressed and did not know what to think since Jesus had been killed. But after the resurrection of Christ, the disciples became very bold and courageous. They even spoke about the resurrection without fear to the Sanhedrin. What do u think might have caused this change in them @lagosshia? Since Jesus had appeared to them in his resurrection body, they were convinced of the truth of the resurrection. Even Peter, who had denied Christ three times, began to fearlessly proclaim the resurrection of Jesus Christ and did so until he, like many of the other apostles, died for his faith. The prove that, despite what it had cost them, they had to die in the fact of His crucification and resurrection. So u can believe what Muhammed say if u want, but it wont change this fact. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by Sweetnecta: 12:49am On Jan 14, 2012 |
@Plappville: « #92 on: Today at 07:33:26 PM » [Quote]Quote from @LagosSia;you presented verses where Jesus is said to have told his disciples he would die and rise.but there is one verse in John where the disciples after the alleged "crucifixion" do not look like people who knew what would happen: John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. Of course the disciples had no expectation of Jesus Christ rising from the dead.[/Quote]let me laugh loud here, sweetie [this will make her not be mad when i speak my mind, since she is probably a push over]. if what you ahve written is correct, Jesus is either a bad teacher leader spiritual guidance, or the disciple are pure wowo with no scintilla of faith, belief, trust in jesus [they are so different from the followers of prophet Muhammad [as]]. from the above about the doubts of the disciples, who can believe anything that comes from? and no wonder Paul took over seeing how unsure they are, a newcomer can say anything and they will believe it. [Quote]We read that that, His disciples on the road to the Emmaus said in reference to Jesus, Luke 24:21)But we hoped that it was he who should have redeemed Israel: and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done. ,[/Quote]A dashed hope since Israel was not redeemed and there was no three nights. Count it. If you get 3 days and 3 nights, a present awaits you. [Quote]The Bible says their faces were downcast, it shows they were depressed and did not know what to think since Jesus had been killed.[/Quote]your condition is just like the onishango of yorubaland. their god was killed too. do you know that? [Quote]But after the resurrection of Christ, the disciples became very bold and courageous.[/Quote]Was Jesus bold too, since all we read was his walking in the shadows, afraid not to be "killed" again? If the master is hiding, do you really think the followers will be bold? [Quote] They even spoke about the resurrection without fear to the Sanhedrin.[/Quote]Did they tell the killers, considering that they saw the master hiding? Coward dies many death. [Quote] What do u think might have caused this change in them @lagosshia? Since Jesus had appeared to them in his resurrection body, they were convinced of the truth of the resurrection.[/Quote]Did Jesus appear to everyone including the "killers"? Really, the people who killed should be the one who he should have shown his face, not the people who ran away and knew nothing of what happened. [Quote] Even Peter,[/Quote]The same Peter that was "satan"? [Quote] who had denied Christ three times, began to fearlessly proclaim the resurrection of Jesus Christ and did so until he, like many of the other apostles, died for his faith.[/Quote]And Jesus was reported to have said, if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. Consider the death of the people and what were what they lived by to have died like they did; hung, beheaded, etc? [Quote] The prove that, despite what it had cost them, they had to die in the fact of His crucification and resurrection.[/Quote]remember none of them witness either because they ran in the first case and the 3 days and 3 nights could not be calculated from friday afternoon to sunday morning. [Quote] So u can believe what Muhammed say if u want, but it wont change this fact.[/Quote]The facts are; there were no 3 nights in the belly of the earth even if we take caves to be the belly of the earth. there was no unchallengeable evidence that the man was hung. to say that he was hung is a proof that God was against him, considering that he prayed to and beg God against it. the fact is that he had people with weak faith with him and his recommending the Another Comforter to be the chairman as the one after him that will set things in concrete shows that the Another Comforter has more right over everyone, including Jesus than Jesus had right over himself or anyone. The absolute fact is that it is human God sent to human as messenger to deliver divine message of God. Muhammad [as] was the last Messenger to mankind. |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by vedaxcool(m): 3:55am On Jan 14, 2012 |
plappville: Does words have meaning in Christianity? you wrote Christianity means followers of christ, yet they was no such thing as followers of christ before Jesus was born, you can quote verses and interpret them to claims before this I was, bla bla bla, no historical evidence supports your fraudulent lies plappville: I almost taught i was reading the confessions of a junkie  , really the earliest faith would be Adam and Eve?? so Adam and Eve is now a religion, you added to the confusion, to which Judaism arised? I ask ma, what of other Languages, races and ethnicities? No wonder the early Christians missionaries tend to look down on your race - Black- no wonder they looked down on everybody, no wonder hitler believed in racial superiority, the BIG question is what sort of god leaves the rest of Humanity unguided, unassisted, undirected un everything for Hundreds of thousands of years leaving the devil to win victory against humanity all this while, what a merciful god it is! |
| Re: Muhammad Poisoned By A Jew, Why Must He Die Poisoned, After All He Is A Beloved by plappville(f): 4:51pm On Jan 14, 2012 |
Sweetnecta: Read these verses for urself then argue with the word of God. I wrote in accordance with this very chapter of the scripture, if u are not ok with my explainations, read them and have a conclusion if u wish. Except u just want to argue and keep bling eyes to the truth. Luke 24:13-49 King James Version (KJV) 13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; 23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. 24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. 25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? 33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. 36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them. 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. |
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