Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by BERNIMOORE: 12:02pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
@ joeagbaje, Exodus 21:17 17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. IF TITHE STILL APPLY TO CHRISTIANS TODAY ACCORDING TO YOU(because tithe and laws on honor of parents are all contained and bound under the law Covenant),DID EXODUS 21:17(Quoted above) IS IT APPLICABLE AND PRACTICED BY CHRISTIANS TODAY? YES OR NO. Posted by: Joagbaje PLS ADHERE STRICTLY TO YOUR QUOTE ABOVE(Posted on: Yesterday at 10:27:32 A) NO EXPLANATION YET, JUST ONE OPTION LIKE YOU EARLIER CANVASED; YES OR NO.(waiting pls) |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 12:23pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
BERNIMOORE: You guys didn't respond to me. Yet you want my response, ok,for fairness I will answer. And my answer No |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 6:01pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
For those who think they are to follow God's tithing commands, which of the following do you follow? THE FIRST TITHE Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks. Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites. Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood. SECOND TITHE Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast. Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always” THIRD TITHE Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat. Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor. In all three cases, the tithe comes from God's miraculous increase of food from crops and animals, NOT money, and NOT from anyone's income. You can't follow the law by changing the law. Give me the scripture that YOU follow when you "tithe." |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by FXKing2012(m): 6:36pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
I'm loving this debate. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 7:11pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
garyarnold: I' don't really want to enter this tithe debate thing, because I see it as waste of time. It's seem it's more like who wins argument instead of seeking pure truth. And we keep going round repeating ourselves . Let everyone be convinced in his own mind. There are more important thing than tithing . Let's look at our perfection. World evangelism,intercession . But to answer your question. I'm not tithing based on the law. Tithing is based on spiritual principles . Just like prayer,worship ,godliness. Etc. spiritual principles or spiritual laws came before the law of Moses by revelation through men of faith. And there's no place the bible ever condemned them or God . If God didn't put an end , why should we condemn those who express their faith in God in a way that is working or them. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 7:19pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
If tithing is a spiritual law, then you must tithe spiritually. The opposite of spiritual is tangible, or material. WHY are you tithing tangible or material things (such as money) to satisfy a spiritual law? Doesn't make any sense at all. Spiritual laws must be fulfilled spiritually, not materially. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by FXKing2012(m): 7:40pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
garyarnold:Very good point made! |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 8:00pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Is water baptism and communion not based on piritusl laws ? But we do it physically .whst about prayer and worship. Are they not done physically |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 8:22pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
I don't see where water baptism or communion is done based on spiritual laws. Prayer and worship can be done silently. The spiritual part of prayer and worship is silent. There is a problem using so-called "tithing principles" unless you have the correct principles. What was the principle behind Abram's one-time tithe? According to Biblical historians, it was custom even before the days of Abraham to give a tenth to the king. There is no principle here. What was the principle of the Levitical tithe? God RESERVED a tenth of the crops and animals raised on the Holy land for Himself, and He gave that tenth to the Levites. There certainly is no principle here of giving back to God a tenth of what one earns. Church leaders have either out of ignorance or out of greed invented non-Biblical principles of tithing. I have absolutely no problem with anyone giving a tenth of their income to the church. However, if they give the tenth because of God's tithing commands, they are sinning because they are not following His commands as given. If they give the tenth because of so-called spiritual law, they don't understand what a spiritual law is. If they give it because of so-called tithing principles, they have the wrong principles. If they give it because they are led by the Holy Spirit to give the tenth, they are following God's will. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by newmi(m): 8:36pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
garyarnold:funny!!! What you don't know is that every thing done in the Church of Christ as the ground and pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) every act of worship, every sacrifice rendered must be done in the Spirit because God is a Spirit and those worship Him must worship Him in Spirit (John 4:24). God can only be pleased or perhaps l should say that for any act worship or sacrifice to be pleasing and acceptable to God it has to be sanctified by the Spirit which means that the only acceptable means to present our acts of worship be it in cash or kind is by the Spirit. And Faith is the Spirit way to present our acts of worship because without faith it is imposdible to please God and those that come to God must that He is and that He is a rewarder all them who deligently seek Him. so you are sweeping and cleaning the church you do in faith, if are giving ur offering or tithes or other charity donation (offerings and tithes are not charity donations) you do it in faith trusting and believing that these acts of wotship are not rendered to man to God and the Lord you will receive a reward. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Goshen360(m): 8:46pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Joagbaje: My brother, As much as I also decided to stay out of this topic also; you keep bringing up the kind of things that makes me want to talk. It's not about arguement or who wins the debate. We are all children of God and it is important to seek the truth as we worship the most High God because they that worship must worship in spirit and in truth. There are two categories of people who say tithing is not done under the law anymore but they tithe as to the before the law, which is being refered ato as the patriach age. Am very sure this is where you belong. The Patriachs are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,ok. Now, concerning Abraham tithing to melchizedek, Abraham didnt tithe from his personal belongings as you know that it was from war and also, Abrahm didnt tithe but gave all to melchizedek, Gen 14 v 18-24, emphasis on vs 23. Besides, Abraham was rich b4 the event, Gen13 vs 2 and we are not told it was by giving tithe that he became rich. As to Isaac, there is no record to him giving tithe should Abraham had taught his children tithing in the way of the LORD. As to Jacob giving tithe, we all know that Jacob that will later become Israel was a fraudulent person and he was trying to negotiate and give conditions to God, like a contract for giving tithe and we are not told he actually gave the tithe after God protected him, besides, it wasn't God who told him to tithe as a commandment. Genesis 28:20-22. Jesus spent 3 and haldf years in ministry. Am sure you will agree with me that it doesnt take our master anything to teach his disciples tithing. If Jesus was quiet about this tithing of a thing, why cant we or the men of God just be quiet about this aspect for God sake. The love of money is the root of all evils and we can see it is clear from what is happening today. People dont go into ministry because they are called but because of tithes and offerings and all kinds of seed offerings. We hardly see Jesus talking about money because souls are more imporatnt to him. SHALOM! |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by FXKing2012(m): 10:08pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
What I still dont get is how these tithers choose to continue with tithing and discontinue with animal sacrifices to God. They both predate the law and they were both acceptable unto God during those days; so why choose one and leave the other. 2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become. If the death and ressurrection of our Lord Jesus nullify animal sacrifice becos it was the old way of doing things, why was it not enough to nullify tithing as well since they (tithing and animal sacrifice) belong to the same age? |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 10:57pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
FXKing2012: God explicitly was clear on that fact. That the blood of bull were to be done away with. They were shadow of the blood of Jesus . Now that real blood had been shed, there's no need for shadow. Tithing didn't typify anything. As long as theres is a high priest there will be tithing, Priesthood may change,order may change but the institution of tithing remain valid. Just as honoring your father and mother remain a valid principle in both testaments. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 11:07pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Just as honoring your father and mother remain a valid principle in both testaments. The New Testament tells us to honor our father and mother, but it doesn't tell us to continue tithing. Colossians 3:20 (KJV) “Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.” Your argument is worthless. Abram tithed to the Melchizedek priesthood. Abram was not a priest. Abram gave the tenth directly to the priest. The Israelites tithed to the Aaronic Priesthood by taking the tithe to the non-priest Levites. The Levites then gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests. All born-again believers are part of a Royal Priesthood. We are all priests. Priests RECEIVE a tithe but don't pay a tithe. Jesus, the high priest, has not given any of us permission to receive His tenth. I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!! PURE FRAUD. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Goshen360(m): 11:25pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Joagbaje: Ok, agreed. Now.Jesus is our new high priest right? I am sure we both agree the answer is yes. All through Jesus' walk on earth, HE NEVER DEMANDED TITHE AS THE NEW HIGH PRIEST even though he is the best person to do that or even typify it and Jesus would have taught tithing to His disciples either. Should Jesus want us or His early disciples to tithe, He would have taught it without any difficulty. Besides, Paul wasn't using the record in Hebrew chapter 7 to justify tithing, Paul was simply quoting from Genesis to explain Melchizedek's Priesthood comparing it to that of Christ. Should Paul be writing to justify tithing, Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, not as of king of Salem like Melchizedek. Can you justify this please? |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 11:26pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Honour for parents Is different from obedience. It is to Honour them with gifts, it shows value. It's a form of giving under the law. The New Testament tells us to honor our father and mother, but it doesn't tell us to continue tithing. the point is , that your claim saying tithing went with the law doesn't hold water. The point is , it's not everything that went with the law. Only the things Jesus fulfilled went with the law. But things which are spiritual principles in God transcend dispensations. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 11:33pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
The entire Mosaic law was nailed to the cross - all of it. Not part of it. ALL of it. ONLY that which is repeated from the Old Testament in the New Testament is for Christians to follow. The substance of nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the New Testament. Honor does not mean "with gifts." Honor means respect. Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:” The verse reads HONOUR the Lord with thy substance (wealth), not give to the Lord your wealth. The verse does not say honour the Lord with a tenth of your wealth, or give to the Lord a tenth of your wealth. How does one honor the Lord with their wealth? I believe the best way I can honor the Lord with my wealth is to be a good steward of that wealth and use it to glorify the Lord the best I can. The verse reads AND with the firstfruits of all thine increase. In other words, HONOUR the Lord with the firstfruits of all your produce, or crops (Hebrew word definition). Doesn’t say give to the Lord the firstfruits of your produce, or crops. That comes later in the Word. For those who say that all thine increase can also mean all your income, read the next verse: Proverbs 3:10 (KJV) “So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.” Verse 10 makes it clear that increase in verse 9 is referring to the crops and not income. OLD TESTAMENT Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:” NEW TESTAMENT 2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.” You tithers have a habit of changing the meaning of words. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 11:34pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
goshen360: Jesus would not take tithe because he wasn't a high priest while on earth . There was a priesthood structure . At the death of Jesus the church became the pillar and ground of truth. And people had to relate with the apostles that way too. Paul made it clear that the way people responded to the priest and Levites in the old testament ,the same way they should respond to the church. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. What were the things of the temple ? . Simple , tithes and offerings . |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 11:47pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
garyarnold: Honour and giving go together m you Honour with = giving, have you heard of honorarium? Giving to parents were one of the givings commanded in the bible. But it goes beyond a command . It's a spiritual principles. Principles are for ever. The are divine truths. Jesus had to rebuke the Pharisees for changing that law. Mark 7:11-12 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; How does one honor the Lord with their wealth? I believe the best way I can honor the Lord with my wealth is to be a good steward of that wealth and use it to glorify the Lord the best I can. You are just trying to win an argument by twisting the meaning . Try read it in other translations and see what Honour means. Proverbs 3:9 LIVING BIBLE 9 Honor the Lord by giving him the first part of all your income, and he will fill your barns with wheat and barley and overflow your wine vats with the finest wines. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 11:47pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
What were the things of the temple ? . Simple , tithes and offerings . The ONLY tithe that went to the Temple was the tenth of the tithe from the Levites, so if you insist using that verse, you should only gave a tenth of a tenth, or 1%. However, the tithe that went to the Temple was DEFINED BY GOD, not man. Only a HOLY tithe could go to the Temple, and GOD, not man, defined His Holy tithe to come from HIS increase of FOOD from crops and animals. The firstfruits offerings went to the priests. The Levites, who received the whole tithe, were not allowed to receive or eat from the firstfruits. And there were many other offerings that went to the priests. Why do you ignore the fact that the whole tithe went to the Levites, the servants to the priests; i.e. the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc., and then the Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests? Regular money could never be used at the Temple. Regular money could not be used to pay the Temple Tax. It is extremely important to realize that the Temple shekel had only images of Temple items and Hebrew – both Holy. Roman currency was not allowed because it had the image of Caesar on it along with a Roman superscription in a pagan language. This must also apply to our own currency. It has images of our presidents, images of buildings, images of animals and images of our nature. Shocking as it is, our money does not qualify to be used as gifts to God or the OT Temple! |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 11:49pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Resorting to The Living Bible is no more than resorting to a commentary. Bible scholars don't rely on The Living Bible for a correct interpretation. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by garyarnold(m): 11:55pm On Feb 08, 2012 |
Proverbs 3:9-10 (KJV) 9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. Proverbs 3:9 (RSV) 9Honor the LORD with your substance and with the first fruits of all your produce; 10then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. Proverbs 3:9 (NCV) 9Honor the LORD with your wealth and the firstfruits from all your crops. 10Then your barns will be full, and your wine barrels will overflow with new wine. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 12:40am On Feb 09, 2012 |
^^^ The meaning is clear from the construction. Honour the lord with. . . . . If it says Honour him with dance ,it simply means ,to give him dance, same with clap or praise. All the verses you quoted are still saying the same thing with me, none of them suggests the meaning you're giving it. Let's look at youngs. Young's Literal Translation Honour Jehovah from thy substance. . To Honour means to give . |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Goshen360(m): 12:41am On Feb 09, 2012 |
@ Joagbaje, You are my good friend and brother in the Lord but I must be honest with you at this subject. Please, stop taking scriptures out of context. Putting scriptures in context means the whole. Now, everyone please read same 1 Corinthians 9 verse 1 to end and see that Paul was just writing that to justifying some argument going on in the Corinthian Church but Paul never collected any thing from these churches emphasis on 1 cor. 9:15 and even if he did, same Paul wrote about free will giving that was not made out of compulsory for God loves a cheerful giver. Let us allow scriptures to interpret scriptures and this is why we are in these mess today, because religious leaders had taken most of these scriptures out of context to deceive many because they put pressures on the verse that suites them but we must rightly divide the word of truth. God bless you. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 12:43am On Feb 09, 2012 |
Lets all follow our convictions on this topic. I rest my case |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by BERNIMOORE: 12:45am On Feb 09, 2012 |
[b]joeagbaje's quote; Paul made it clear that the way people responded to the priest and Levites in the old testament ,the same way they should respond to the church. VERSE14, HIGHLITES ''THEY WHICH PREACH BY THE GOSPEL'' WHILE VS 13 SPEAK ABOUT THE LAW PRACTICE. NOW,ARE WE CONCERNED ABOUT TEMPLE? OR 'GOSPEL'? VERY GOOD, LET ME HELP YOU TO FAST FORWARD SAME CHAPTER 9 FROM VS 15-18; 1 Corinthians 9:15-18; 15 But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void. 16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. 18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel. WHY DID PAUL 'PRESENT GOSPEL WITHOUT CHARGE' OR 'WITHOUT COST.? AGAIN YOU CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS NOT A HIGH PRIEST, Can you open your bible now to read, hebrew7:20-26. 20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever[d] According to the order of Melchizedek’”),[e] 22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; [/b] |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Goshen360(m): 12:55am On Feb 09, 2012 |
BERNIMOORE: GOD BLESS YOU. I HAVE JUST TOLD JOAGBAJE SAME THING. HE TOOK SCRIPTURES OUT OF CONTEXT. PAUL DIDNT TAKE ANYTHING FROM THE CHURCH. 1 COR. 9: 15-18 IS THE KEY EMPHASIS. GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Goshen360(m): 1:06am On Feb 09, 2012 |
Joagbaje: SUPPORTED. I, PERSONALLY HAVE STAYED TOO LONG ON THIS MOUNTAIN (TOPIC OF TITHE) AND AM OUT OF THIS FOR NOW. PLEASE FOLLOW YOUR CONVICTION PLEASE FOR THEY THAT ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE THE SONS OF GOD AND TO HIM THAT IS PURE, ALL THINGS ARE PURE. IF YOUR HEART DOESN'T CONDEMN YOU, YOU ARE GOOD. SHALOM TO YOU ALL. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by amor4ce(m): 2:42am On Feb 09, 2012 |
What about the New Yam Festivals? |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by FXKing2012(m): 8:10am On Feb 09, 2012 |
This has been very enlightening and informative. I've learned so much from this thread and I hope others have too. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by Joagbaje(m): 8:42am On Feb 09, 2012 |
goshen360: It's not out of context. The truth is clear there. Paul explained the reason he refused to take money fom the Corinthian church. They were carnal . For that reason ,they would not see the spirituality of giving to him. Besides he wanted to have voice to rebuke them well. So he didnt want to feel obligated to them . He therfore refused support Even though he knew he ought to take money according to his argument. This only happened in the carnal Corinthian church. You should remember he took money from other churches . And the fact that he didn't get money from them didn't mean they were not giving to God in their services. |
| Re: Tithes, Offerings And First Fruits - Do They Apply To Us As Christians? by BERNIMOORE: 11:07am On Feb 09, 2012 |
[b]@joagbaje Jesus would not take tithe because he wasn't a high priest while on earth . NOW YOU ADMITTED THAT JESUS (the source of christianity) DID NOT TAKE TITHE. Paul explained the reason he refused to take money fom the Corinthian church. They were carnal . For that reason ,they would not see the spirituality of giving to him. AND IT IS VERY CLEAR NOW THAT,PAUL DID NOT ACCEPT TITHE, YOU CANT PRODUCE ANY BIBLE VERSE ON THESE. ITS A FACT NOW. MEANWHILE, APOSTLE PAUL GAVE US HIS REASON,THAT THEY(corinthians) 'ABOUND IN FAITH AND GOOD WORKS' BUT NOT HAVING SUFFICIENTLY, SO HE FEELS NOT TO 'BURDEN' THEM BY LOVINGLY SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM OTHER BRETHREN OUTSIDE OF CORINTH TO COMPLEMENT THEIR LACK ;IS THAT NOT COMMENDABLE? DID HE FORCE TITHE ON THEM, OR DID HE SAY 'THEY ARE ROBBING GOD? NO. 1 COR 8:13-14. 13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack—that there may be equality. PLS SUPPLY BIBLE VERSES THAT PAUL USE TO SUPPORT TITHE,JUST ONE AND I WILL BE OKAY? IM WAITING PLS AND IF YOU CANT SUPPLY ONE,THEN TITHE IS NOT PRACTICED BY JESUS AND EARLY CHRISTIANS,SIMPLE,DONT BEAT ABOUT THE BUSH. .[/b] |
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