aribisala0:

Abagworo if you want to shut up no one will miss your output.

I have not directed my contributions at you at any time.If you do not like my opinions ignore them.
You are entitled to your views and so am I so do not believe you can shut me up. 1 million of you cannot do it.

You will not persuade me and I will not persuade you. i reallly do not have the inclination nor time for eristics

at any rate my view is simple;[b]let the Ikwerre people decide what they want to be . [/b]I have no views on their genealogy or linguo-cultural orientation

And what is the difference between your view and mine?

Abagworo:

I am not an expert but I wrote what I know. I can't guess the time but it is widely acknowledged that Etche is older than Ikwerre. If you are in Nigeria, visit Isiokpo, Ozuzu or Igwruta to confirm the story. Much of present day River State was most likely recently occupied due to the slave trade pull. Even the Port Harcourt area might have been occupied as recently as 19th century. The Ikwerres can trace their root quite unlike the Isu. This tells you how recent the history is just like the Aros.

I'm familiar with the story. Sparing some details, Ngwa and Etche share similar traditions regarding the origin/founding of Ikwere. So, the fact that Etche is older than Ikwere is well-acknowledged, but what is not acknowledge is Arochukwu in all of this. Before jumping to conclusions, understand that I am not saying Aro never went to Ikwere. We all know Aro founded parts of Ikwere, but to put Aro as the earliest arrivals would mean dating Ikwere long-after Kalabari had finally settled, which we all know does not make sense.

The thread asks why do Ikwerre reject their Igbo Identity? Not What is the Igbo Identity of the Ikwerres?
So already there is implicit assumption rightly or otherwise that Ikwerres have Igbo Identity
and
another assumption that they reject it.


I do not know if  both assumptions are correct.


What i know is that both assumptions are controversial and disputed.

BUT
Let us assume they had Igbo identity and are now putting it away to paraphrase the @Poster.

This is not necessarily a rejection and perhaps is more of an ecdysis or metamorphosis.

Regarding the substance of whether they had/have Igbo identity a priori or not it is not a matter to be resolved by bullying or bluster but rather to present arguments for and or against.
I read here all manner of accounts they came from here and there, funny anyone can say anything they heard from their parents but for scholastic debate we cannot rely on "EXPERT WITNESSES" of nairaland give some HARD evidence by way of research or other publications.

We cannot rely on observed culture or language as that only tells us how they travelled.
after all apart from skin color there is little to tell where many so called African Americans came from.


I believe only the jews have been successful in preseving their identity in the diaspora for so long and not without paying the price of extensive genetic dilution. Originally they were similar to Arabs,
If it is true that they migrated from Zimbabwe I do not expect they would still speak Shona

ChinenyeN:

I'm familiar with the story. Sparing some details, Ngwa and Etche share similar traditions regarding the origin/founding of Ikwere. So, the fact that Etche is older than Ikwere is well-acknowledged, but what is not acknowledge is Arochukwu in all of this. Before jumping to conclusions, understand that I am not saying Aro never went to Ikwere. We all know Aro founded parts of Ikwere, but to put Aro as the earliest arrivals would mean dating Ikwere long-after Kalabari had finally settled, which we all know does not make sense.

On the Aro angle, I heard the story from the traditional ruler of Igwruta directly. They believe Okpo Nwagidi was an Aro man that settled at Ozuzu with his entourage and later moved on to Isiokpo.

You know Kalabari has controversial tstory of origin too. Some Kalabaris believe they are from Brass and Ijaw while others believe they are of the same stock as Efik. The Efik part believe they migrated with Aros and first settled at Isiokpo before moving on to Buguma. The other story which I have read on the net tells of Elem Kalabari as Ijaw man that came from the west. Brass itself also has tales of Igbo and Benin origins at least in parts. So its all complicated. Our forefathers had no records and we have to rely on stories which might always be altered to the point of view of the narrator.

The beauty of the Igwrita story is that they have a genealogy of Okpo's descendants up to kindred levels across the Ikwerre proper. I have searched for it on the net but yet to find it.

Abagworo:

On the Aro angle, I heard the story from the traditional ruler of Igwruta directly. They believe Okpo Nwagidi was an Aro man that settled at Ozuzu with his entourage and later moved on to Isiokpo.

You know Kalabari has controversial tstory of origin too. Some Kalabaris believe they are from Brass and Ijaw while others believe they are of the same stock as Efik. The Efik part believe they migrated with Aros and first settled at Isiokpo before moving on to Buguma. The other story which I have read on the net tells of Elem Kalabari as Ijaw man that came from the west. Brass itself also has tales of Igbo and Benin origins at least in parts. So its all complicated. Our forefathers had no records and we have to rely on stories which might always be altered to the point of view of the narrator.

The beauty of the Igwrita story is that they have a genealogy of Okpo's descendants up to kindred levels across the Ikwerre proper. I have searched for it on the net but yet to find it.

Can you please explain the highlighted?

I'm not denying the Aro-Isiokpo link/movement.

BlackPikiN:


Can you please explain the highlighted?

I am neither a Kalabari nor Brass and I have no links with the groups apart from friends I grew up with and an ex from Brass. The stories are on the net and you can always google them. The Benin angle,efik and Ijaw angle.

aribisala0:

The thread asks why do Ikwerre reject their Igbo Identity? Not What is the Igbo Identity of the Ikwerres?
So already there is implicit assumption rightly or otherwise that Ikwerres have Igbo Identity
and
another assumption that they reject it.


I do not know if  both assumptions are correct.


What i know is that both assumptions are controversial and disputed.

BUT
Let us assume they had Igbo identity and are now putting it away to paraphrase the @Poster.

This is not necessarily a rejection and perhaps is more of an ecdysis or metamorphosis.

Regarding the substance of whether they had/have Igbo identity a priori or not it is not a matter to be resolved by bullying or bluster but rather to present arguments for and or against.
I read here all manner of accounts they came from here and there, funny anyone can say anything they heard from their parents but for scholastic debate we cannot rely on "EXPERT WITNESSES" of nairaland give some HARD evidence by way of research or other publications.

We cannot rely on observed culture or language as that only tells us how they travelled.
after all apart from skin color there is little to tell where many so called African Americans came from.


I believe only the jews have been successful in preseving their identity in the diaspora for so long and not without paying the price of extensive genetic dilution. Originally they were similar to Arabs,
If it is true that they migrated from Zimbabwe I do not expect they would still speak Shona

i 've been observing you for sometime now,are u really a yoruba guy?

Biko nu umunne,rapu nu umuikwerre ka fa noolu onwe fa !
Do you think these ppl dont know they are Igbos ??
Anybody who calls these ppl ignorant is just being naive!

For the way I feel about these folks ? You really dont wanna know!!

NRI PRIEST:

Biko nu umunne,rapu nu umuikwerre ka fa noolu onwe fa !
Do you think these ppl dont know they are Igbos ??
Anybody who calls these ppl ignorant is just being naive!

For the way I feel about these folks ? You really dont wanna know!!

Your base is all the way in Anambra though. So you're not supposed to feel anything for them to begin with.

lol

The verb "BE"

am
is
are = present tense


was
were = past tense

pazienza:

i 've been observing you for sometime now,are u really a yoruba guy?

No I am Ijebu

aribisala0:

No I am Ijebu

Ijebu isn't Yoruba?

depends. The idea or concept of Yoruba is a new one just like Nigeria  or Nigerians. To save time and saliva it is better to say Ijebu is Yoruba. But really yoruba refers to Oyo whose language now dominate. I do not know if there ever was a time when Ijebu and Oyo were friends. If colonisation did not happen then Yoruba would mean a different thing. It did and those who have a lot in common ; Oduduwa ancestry find utility and security under the "Yoruba" banner. I remember as a small boy that many old Ijebu people referred to Oyo people as "Awon Yoruba yen" those yoruba people . They would be scandalized to be called Yoruba. I rather suspect it is the same elsewhere but most people are ignorant.Just as all Children of Abraham are not Jews . Not all children of Oduduwa were Yoruba. In Benin republic They are called Anago.
This is why storytellers are important. Lions have no storytellers so the story of the hunt glorifies the hunter. When a people have no storytellers,others will tell them their story

ChinenyeN:

Ijebu isn't Yoruba?

So, you prefer to be called Ijebu?

if people don't want to be with you wish them well .why the bellicosity

ChinenyeN:

Your base is all the way in Anambra though. So you're not supposed to feel anything for them to begin with.

Quite right but Onicha and Ika isnt too far away from Idenmili yet I group Onicha,Ika and Ikwerre together according to their attitudes toward a united Igbo nation! I havent had the opportunity to converse with an Ikwerre man extensively but I let the few I met know I dont consider them true Igbos, and just few days ago  I ran into an Ngwa man who I stoutly told I have doubt about their Igboness but he quickly rebuked me to my greatest surprise! I thought Ngwas arent Igbos ! For all I care any group who doest want to be part of the Igbo nation can go to HELL!! WE DONT NEED NGWA,IKWERRE,ONICHA,IKA AND THE REST OF OUR SUBURDINATES!!

aribisala0:

tha is what i am

You and I share a similar understanding then. Alright. Well I was just curious to understand. Thanks for sharing.

one thing i know for sure if the igbos or yorubas today were to have their own exclusive countries the issue of federal character will still arise somehow

NRI PRIEST:

Quite right but Onicha and Ika isnt too far away from Idenmili yet I group Onicha,Ika and Ikwerre together according to their attitudes toward a united Igbo nation! I havent had the opportunity to converse with an Ikwerre man extensively but I let the few I met know I dont consider them true Igbos, and just few days ago  I ran into an Ngwa man who I stoutly told I have doubt about their Igboness but he quickly rebuked me to my greatest surprise! I thought Ngwas arent Igbos ! For all I care any group who doest want to be part of the Igbo nation can go to HELL!! WE DONT NEED NGWA,IKWERRE,ONICHA,IKA AND THE REST OF OUR SUBURDINATES!!

First of all, I just hope the bolded is not some kind of "Nri" nonsense, because if it is, shut up and stop shouting unnecessarily. None are your subordinates.

Now, who told you Ngwa aren't Igbo?

aribisala0:

one thing i know for sure if the igbos or yorubas today were to have their own exclusive countries the issue of federal character will still arise somehow

Honestly, I'd like to believe that Igbo would be able to handle this aspect well, when it arises.

when that time comes those that are around shall see

You make it sound as if you don't expect such to happen in our generation/lifetime.

ChinenyeN:

First of all, I just hope the bolded is not some kind of "Nri" nonsense, because if it is, shut up and stop shouting unnecessarily. None are your subordinates.

Now, who told you Ngwa aren't Igbo?

Sometimes its good not to start something you cant finish but pride wont let some do that! I was trying to advice my fellow Igbos to refrain from trying to make a point why they think Ikwerre is Igbo and you jumped in and started telling me where i belong or where i should make contribution! Is this not an Igbo related matter ? And what do you mean by "Nri nonsense" ?
You need to learn how to be LOYAL! You do have some unresolved issues, If you are truelly an Igbo guy you wont be disrespecting Nri hegemony in this manner!!! It just shows in abundance the level of ur insecurities!

Loyal? Owhno, you cannot talk to me about loyalty. M di iri la whne gh? I've already cautioned you on this 'subordinate' foolishness. Now don't start what you know you cannot finish.

If you don't want to answer my question, then either say you don't want to or just be sensible and not respond, instead of writing all this foolishness. Simple.

ChinenyeN:

Loyal? Owhno, you cannot talk to me about loyalty. M di iri la whne gh? I've already cautioned you on this 'subordinate' foolishness. Now don't start what you know you cannot finish.

If you don't want to answer my question, then either say you don't want to or just be sensible and not respond, instead of writing all this foolishness.

Igbo sili na nwata na ata akala na ata ego ya; fa sikwazili na aku fechaa odalu awo, you can run your big mouth all day if you want but you can never change history nor facts!! I challenge you to lead a revolution that will pull Ngwa out of the Igbo nation and see what happens !! Gbuo dike,gbuo dike nbosi ogu achoba dike! Whoever that is brainwashing you mind and feeding you with lies is doing a fantastic job! There is a reason why there is "okpala" na "odudu" ! Nwata adi ebu nnia amuta diokpala,maka nwata sili nia bu nnia uzo muta diokpala obuzi onye mulia! A word is enough for the wise! Nri is older and more dignified than any kingdom in this area Nigeria!!
You will learn but not yet!

NRI PRIEST:
I challenge you to lead a revolution that will pull Ngwa out of the Igbo nation and see what happens !!

I laugh in the most intense of Ngwa. Ii whne i dito ika. When finally an Igbo nation emerges, then, feel free to remind me of this comment of yours you just made so that I can slap you. Owhnoghowhno. You're not thinking straight. 

Anyway, goodnight. I'm tired of having to repeat myself over and over again, as if your brain does not get the message. So just remain there hurling insults over something I never said and an ideology I don't even hold. Continue holding on to your false assumptions, and continue remaining in ignorance.

It is possible to disagree amicably without abuse ,reallly this is true.


@Chinenye
Are you making any plans to actualize this or just hoping it will happen by  chance?

This claim that Nri is the oldest is doubtful.
Is it older than the Kanem empire

First what is the definition of Kingdom

Second What evidence is there that Nri was ever a kingdom and not a republic.

It is my hope that someone will answer these questions without the usual fire spitting.

If it is the oldest when did it exist?
which is the second oldest? and the third?

aribisala0:

This claim that Nri is the oldest is doubtful.
Is it older than the Kanem empire

First what is the definition of Kingdom

Second What evidence is there that Nri was ever a kingdom and not a repu
blic.


It is my hope that someone will answer these questions without the usual fire spitting.

If it is the oldest when did it exist?
which is the second oldest? and the third?

I dont like talking to BIGOTS which you are obviously one of; If you care to know about Nri I will advice you to humble yourself and study it culture and age, The most recent excavation carried out in Anambra dates Nri kingdom to the 8th century!
Go study the rest!

Fire and Brimstone!

Please feel free to call me a bigot or whatever else you fancy. Your lack of restraint in abusing people is amusing.
Of course anyone that disagrees  with you is an OBOTE MAN
Effective formula to remove dissent  . Label your opponents and your work is done!

It helps to avoid the real issue

Have there been excavations elsewhere in Nigeria or is it just Nri.
Excavations have shown human presence all over Nigeria for millenia not just 8th century
Certainly the Nok civilization is several millenia old.
The Kanem Bornu empire was around in the 6th century. Surely before you become an empire you start out as a kingdom,no?
There is evidence of people at okigwe thousands of years before Christ!
Excavations at the site of the Kainji dam show metal working 200 years BC
so this Nri is oldest claim deserves scrutiny
There certainly were Nok Kingdoms in Jos long before Nri
It is importhat to define "kingdom"
Any independent community that has a "king" is a kingdom and there have been loads of those in Nigeria for millenia not just the 8th Century

The claim that it is OLDEST [/b]requires evidence.



[b]What evidence is there that NRI is the oldest kingdom in Nigeria   OR that it was indeed a kingdom and NOT a Republic Or even the oldest in Igboland.
Have excavations proven that NRI was a kingdom?


Evidence,evidence,evidence.
Finally we must be wary of assuming that everything excavated from under our feet has something to do with us. Maybe maybe not especially as some excavates are 10000 years old(i say this generally and not about Nri necessarily)

Let me just say something. Nri is in fact Nigeria's (and possibly Sub-Saharan West Africa's) oldest established kingdom. It isn't the oldest group or the oldest culture but Nri was the first group to develop an organized royal hierarchy. Its golden years were from the 800s-1100s.

This excerpt from Christopher Ehret's Civilizations of Africa attests to this fact: "The earliest kingdom we know of was the Nri state. In the eight and ninth centuries, it was located to the immediate east of the middle parts if the lower Niger River, an in and along the Northern fringe of the rainforest. It's population was apparently Igbo, "

Here's another: "The Nri was a king, in other words, whose legitimacy was rooted in the kind of authority exerted by the old ritual chiefs of the Nigeria-Congo civilization".

Now about Nok. Nok was not a kingdom. It was a culture. Nok culture is just a term used to envelope the peoples in and around the city of Nok who exhibited traits of "early civilization".

Kanem does in fact predate Nri, but it's origins do not lie in Nigeria or West Africa for the matter. Kamen was a Chadic city-state that grew (in size) with it's conquests.

There are numerous archaeological findings that have supported the fact that Nri was a kingdom. I can't provide pictures here but if you google it, you will see that there are many. Nigeria's oldest flywhisk was discovered in Nri and the excavations of an Nri burial site showed a "mumified" king ornamented in regal attire and buried with other tools including a royal stool. Also, the fact that there is an Eze Nri today supports this. The current Eze Nri is the latest monarch in Nigeria's oldest dynasty.

Some of those archaeological findings which you spoke about are real, but none of them were discovered in an "organized kingdom". I'm not saying that no ethnic group or city-state existed prior to Nri, but Nri was the first to develop an organized monarchy.

aribisala0:

Fire and Brimstone!

Please feel free to call me a bigot or whatever else you fancy. Your lack of restraint in abusing people is amusing.
Of course anyone that disagrees  with you is an OBOTE MAN
Effective formula to remove dissent  . Label your opponents and your work is done!

It helps to avoid the real issue

Have there been excavations elsewhere in Nigeria or is it just Nri.
Excavations have shown human presence all over Nigeria for millenia not just 8th century
Certainly the Nok civilization is several millenia old.
The Kanem Bornu empire was around in the 6th century. Surely before you become an empire you start out as a kingdom,no?
There is evidence of people at okigwe thousands of years before Christ!
Excavations at the site of the Kainji dam show metal working 200 years BC
so this Nri is oldest claim deserves scrutiny
There certainly were Nok Kingdoms in Jos long before Nri
It is importhat to define "kingdom"
Any independent community that has a "king" is a kingdom and there have been loads of those in Nigeria for millenia not just the 8th Century

The claim that it is OLDEST [/b]requires evidence.



[b]What evidence is there that NRI is the oldest kingdom in Nigeria   OR that it was indeed a kingdom and NOT a Republic Or even the oldest in Igboland.
Have excavations proven that NRI was a kingdom?


Evidence,evidence,evidence.
Finally we must be wary of assuming that everything excavated from under our feet has something to do with us. Maybe maybe not especially as some excavates are 10000 years old(i say this generally and not about Nri necessarily)