logicboy:
The catholic church's teaching changes (that's why I am not a catholic anymore)but it remains uniform.

We must be careful when we say that Catholic teaching "changes." It doesn't, in the sense that it can make a 'u-turn' on what it said before. It can only get better defined as the Church is being better enlightened by the Holy Spirit... For example, the Church can never teach that purgatory does not exist because it has been revealed to us as truth, but it can understand more and more about purgatory.

logicboy: 3) The website shows that the catholic church has moved to the teaching that non-catholics or non believers can go to heaven

. "The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6"

Nope! It was always the teaching of the Church, it just was poorly understood when The Church said "No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church".

logicboy: 4) The teaching on purgatory is for people who are not totally pure who have to be cleansed or do pennance before going to heaven unbelievers, babies etc go there before heaven.

That's not exactly what the Church teaches. Its for people who are in a state of grace when they die (free of unconfessed mortal sins) but have either committed venial sins or have not adequately served the temporal punishment for forgiven mortal sins (as the Catholic Church believes that we pay for every sin - whether forgiven or not - in this life or in the next.

logicboy: The priest can not go outside the doctrine without excommunication. Furthermore, yes, the church changes its position but the changes are uniform accross the whle catholic church.

The priest, like anyone else can err, but it doesn't necessarily lead to excommunication if its an honest mistake. It does if he's doing it deliberately.

The Church never changes a doctrine, what might change is a "discipline." An example of a discipline that can change is priestly celibacy. It is a discipline to encourage total devotion to God, not a doctrine.

To reiterate: The Catholic Church has never changed a single doctrine in all its 2000year history.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church...but who still seek God...and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience ...

It will of course still be Jesus who saves them...(and Christians are to proclaim Christ..the Gospel to them)

Or even atheists...

as the Church noted at the Second Vatican Council:

"Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life (LG 16)

Whoever is saved in the end...will be saved by Jesus Christ...even if he has never heard of him or the Church ....and in relation to the Church.

But yes if a person has heard the Gospel...and rejected Christ..this is not a positive sign...

(or if I did so..I would be in grave trouble! ...I too can end up choosing hell).

Having said that..

Now there can be "more to the story" they may have not heard it properly ...not really ...or were maltreated by someone claiming to be doing so as a Christian or something...

Or...you may not have the right introduction here..to the actual Jesus.

God can give graces...we have no knowledge of...

And as the Second Vatican Council notes:

Since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery [Gaudium et Spes 22].

and God does will our salvation...and knows what the person may have rejected (a fake portrait of Jesus) etc..

Hope that helps

pazienza: Nigerian's are the worst,whenever i visit foreign websites like goal.com, i would notice that Nigerians are the only people that will make statements like: by God's grace chelsea will win, God please help man u,insha allah chelsea will win...

worst on what?

italo:

We must be careful when we say that Catholic teaching "changes." It doesn't, in the sense that it can make a 'u-turn' on what it said before. It can only get better defined as the Church is being better enlightened by the Holy Spirit... For example, the Church can never teach that purgatory does not exist because it has been revealed to us as truth, but it can understand more and more about purgatory.

1) The catholic church supported slavery. Have you forgotten that? They changed that doctrine. Read about Pope Gregory IX sanctioning slavery

2) What about sanctioned holy wars and inquisitions?

italo:
Nope! It was always the teaching of the Church, it just was poorly understood when The Church said "No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church".

Nope! The catholic church was mistaken in making that statement.

italo:
That's not exactly what the Church teaches. Its for people who are in a state of grace when they die (free of unconfessed mortal sins) but have either committed venial sins or have not adequately served the temporal punishment for forgiven mortal sins (as the Catholic Church believes that we pay for every sin - whether forgiven or not - in this life or in the next.

It's exactly what the church teaches. Dead babies go to purgatory. Atheists/unbelievers who can claim that they have never heard of Jesus before will also go to purgatory then heaven

italo:
The priest, like anyone else can err, but it doesn't necessarily lead to excommunication if its an honest mistake. It does if he's doing it deliberately.

The priest did not err, what he said was in line with the church's teaching.

italo:
The Church never changes a doctrine, what might change is a "discipline." An example of a discipline that can change is priestly celibacy. It is a discipline to encourage total devotion to God, not a doctrine.

Was slavery a discipline? What about catholic sanctioned torture of heretics?

italo:
To reiterate: The Catholic Church has never changed a single doctrine in all its 2000year history.

The catholic church changed on

-slavery
-sanctioning holy wars
-torture of heretics

hisblud: worst on what?

Over-religiousness?

God this, God that!

logicboy:

1) The catholic church supported slavery. Have you forgotten that? They changed that doctrine. Read about Pope Gregory IX sanctioning slavery

Whether the Church supported slavery or not, that is yet to be proved by you (you might want to provide evidence of that). But even if they did, it doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. The entirety of Catholic doctrine is not something secret as it's contained in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. You, a so-called "Catholic for 22yrs" should know this. If you insist, show me an official statement that shows that its a doctrine of the Church to support or engage in slavery; and show me when and/or where it was changed to say "do not support or engage in slavery. Let no one get me wrong, I'm not saying the Church never does wrong, I'm saying, even when we do, we're going against our own doctrine.

logicboy: 2) What about sanctioned holy wars and inquisitions?

What is wrong with sanctioning a war? There are situations where war is just, in Catholic doctrine. On the inquisitions, you will, again have to provide evidence again of the Churches role in that, sorry.

logicboy: Nope! The catholic church was mistaken in making that statement.

What do you mean, "they were mistaken", are you saying "there is salvation outside the Church," Atheist? Lol. Anyway let me save you the trouble. It is still a teaching of the Church as it has always been, found in the Catechism, so it was never changed.

logicboy: It's exactly what the church teaches. Dead babies go to purgatory. Atheists/unbelievers who can claim that they have never heard of Jesus before will also go to purgatory then heaven

CCC 1030 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607"

When we say "those who die in God's grace and frienship", we mean, in common Catholic usage, "those who die in a state of grace." And to be in a state of grace means to be free of mortal sin. You cannot be in mortal sin and be in God's grace and friendship because, mortal sin leads to "death and separation" from God.

logicboy: The priest did not err, what he said was in line with the church's teaching.

I didn't say that Priest erred. I'm saying, the priest can err and not be excommunicated. Read and understand.

logicboy: Was slavery a discipline? What about catholic sanctioned torture of heretics?

Neither was a doctrine or discipline. Neither have you provided evidence of.

logicboy: The catholic church changed on

-slavery
-sanctioning holy wars
-torture of heretics

My point is, they never changed a DOCTRINE!

italo:

Whether the Church supported slavery or not, that is yet to be proved by you (you might want to provide evidence of that). But even if they did, it doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. The entirety of Catholic doctrine is not something secret as it's contained in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. You, a so-called "Catholic for 22yrs" should know this. If you insist, show me an official statement that shows that its a doctrine of the Church to support or engage in slavery; and show me when and/or where it was changed to say "do not support or engage in slavery. Let no one get me wrong, I'm not saying the Church never does wrong, I'm saying, even when we do, we're going against our own doctrine.

Slavery incorporated into Canon Law
In the early thirteenth century, official support for slavery and the slave trade was incorporated into Canon Law (Corpus Iuris Canonici), by Pope Gregory IX,.[61][62] Canon law provided for four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.
Slavery was imposed as an ecclesiastical penalty by General Councils and local Church councils and Popes, 1179-1535...
(a) The crime of assisting the Saracens 1179-1450.....
(b) The crime of selling Christian slaves to the Saracens 1425. Pope Martin V issued two constitutions. Traffic in Christian slaves was not forbidden, but only their sale to non Christian masters.
(c) The crime of brigandage in the Pyrenees mountainous districts, 1179.
(d)Unjust aggression or other crimes, 1309-1535. The penalty of capture and enslavement for Christian families or cities or states was enacted several times by Popes. Those sentenced included Venetians in 1309.[63]
Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[64] Little seems to have happened before the order was removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

italo:
What is wrong with sanctioning a war? There are situations where war is just, in Catholic doctrine. On the inquisitions, you will, again have to provide evidence again of the Churches role in that, sorry.

1) You must be willfully ignorant if you are in denial of catholic support of the inquisitions and crusades. owever, if there is a just reason for war then one should defend himself.

2) I will not put up proof so that I can see the kind of person you are whether you will look up the truth on whether the catholic church supported the those wars.

3) Torture of heretics; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Tribunals_and_institutions

italo:
What do you mean, "they were mistaken", are you saying "there is salvation outside the Church," Atheist? Lol. Anyway let me save you the trouble. It is still a teaching of the Church as it has always been, found in the Catechism, so it was never changed.

No, such teaching has been removed. There is salvation outside the catholic church and that is an admission grudgingly made by the catholic church.

italo:
CCC 1030 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607"


When we say "those who die in God's grace and frienship", we mean, in common Catholic usage, "those who die in a state of grace." And to be in a state of grace means to be free of mortal sin. You cannot be in mortal sin and be in God's grace and friendship because, mortal sin leads to "death and separation" from God.

Long story short- babies go to purgatory. Babies are atheists. Babies later go to heaven.

Atheists go to heaven

italo:
I didn't say that Priest erred. I'm saying, the priest can err and not be excommunicated. Read and understand.

No probs

italo:
Neither was a doctrine or discipline. Neither have you provided evidence of.

1) Slavery was in canon law.

2) The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy.[1] Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.

italo:
My point is, they never changed a DOCTRINE!

they did. look up slavery and the catholic church

italo:

Whether the Church supported slavery or not, that is yet to be proved by you (you might want to provide evidence of that). But even if they did, it doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. The entirety of Catholic doctrine is not something secret as it's contained in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. You, a so-called "Catholic for 22yrs" should know this. If you insist, show me an official statement that shows that its a doctrine of the Church to support or engage in slavery; and show me when and/or where it was changed to say "do not support or engage in slavery. Let no one get me wrong, I'm not saying the Church never does wrong, I'm saying, even when we do, we're going against our own doctrine.



What is wrong with sanctioning a war? There are situations where war is just, in Catholic doctrine. On the inquisitions, you will, again have to provide evidence again of the Churches role in that, sorry.



What do you mean, "they were mistaken", are you saying "there is salvation outside the Church," Atheist? Lol. Anyway let me save you the trouble. It is still a teaching of the Church as it has always been, found in the Catechism, so it was never changed.



CCC 1030 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607"

When we say "those who die in God's grace and frienship", we mean, in common Catholic usage, "those who die in a state of grace." And to be in a state of grace means to be free of mortal sin. You cannot be in mortal sin and be in God's grace and friendship because, mortal sin leads to "death and separation" from God.



I didn't say that Priest erred. I'm saying, the priest can err and not be excommunicated. Read and understand.



Neither was a doctrine or discipline. Neither have you provided evidence of.



My point is, they never changed a DOCTRINE!

Italo it is a pity you klet "logic"boy off the hook, he threw all those allegatyion because he was trying to save face from the real questions of the lies he was pilling in the holy see, this is the sort of tactic the tactless ignoramus uses to win argument at all cost, this sort of behavior is typical of frustrated individuals who are to dishonest to accept when they are mistaken, he does this sort of low intelect tactic every time you argue with him . . . you can see why i can never be an atheist, being proud is not my style and being proudly ignorant can never be me.

vedaxcool:

Italo it is a pity you klet "logic"boy off the hook, he threw all those allegatyion because he was trying to save face from the real questions of the lies he was pilling in the holy see, this is the sort of tactic the tactless ignoramus uses to win argument at all cost, this sort of behavior is typical of frustrated individuals who are to dishonest to accept when they are mistaken, he does this sort of low intelect tactic every time you argue with him . . . you can see why i can never be an atheist, being proud is not my style and being proudly ignorant can never be me.

Hahahaha, see this ignorant muslim defending the catholic church!

Kai! shame!! You are now calling the fact that the catholic church supported the murder and enslavement of your fellow muslims mere "allegations"!

Shame, shame on you!

Ignorance.

I know that you're angry that I destroyed your arguments and now using cheerleading tactics to troll. Learn from Italo, he tackles the debate head on, not your sore loser tactics

Typical display of d "logic" of a frustrated atheist, the issue remains that the coward made assertions that I showed false and a practising catholic again re-asserted to be false, that you threw around your allegations to save face remains a clear show of why the kind of atheism u practiced is fraught with ignorance , illitrate reasoning and unreseraved hypocritical analysis, first you begged for heaven, we showed you, your kind can't even make a pagan "heaven" if such exist, rather than acccept the simple fact you began showing that you must make heaven hook or crook, by making your usual un-reasonable arguments that would make an illiterate blush out shame for you, i tried explaining to you, based your inability to reason, that this is the case, again being an angry child, who became an atheist to vent his anger i tried showing you how to reason and the way you can use your intellect, yet Mr. "my father is rich" and "i don't need to work" still insist that we must accept his poor logic, boy i am not convinced on you low intellect indeed, being proudly ignorant is not me indeed nuff said

vedaxcool: Typical display of d "logic" of a frustrated atheist, the issue remains that the coward made assertions that I showed false and a practising catholic again re-asserted to be false, that you threw around your allegations to save face remains a clear show of why the kind of atheism u practiced is fraught with ignorance , illitrate reasoning and unreseraved hypocritical analysis, first you begged for heaven, we showed you, your kind can't even make a pagan "heaven" if such exist, rather than acccept the simple fact you began showing that you must make heaven hook or crook, by making your usual un-reasonable arguments that would make an illiterate blush out shame for you, i tried explaining to you, based your inability to reason, that this is the case, again being an angry child, who became an atheist to vent his anger i tried showing you how to reason and the way you can use your intellect, yet Mr. "my father is rich" and "i don't need to work" still insist that we must accept his poor logic, boy i am not convinced on you low intellect indeed, being proudly ignorant is not me indeed nuff said

Why so angry? You should change your name to VEXdaUNcool

@mr. "My father is rich" , I can understand why you termed the truth anger since to go against well established facts will make you look in all regards a serial liar, but I restate that all I said were clearly facts that best describes the fallacy you parrot around as being "logic". To always reduce people's points to personal attacks leaves your kind nothing more than clowns pretending to be apostles of logics. . .

vedaxcool: @mr. "My father is rich" , I can understand why you termed the truth anger since to go against well established facts will make you look in all regards a serial liar, but I restate that all I said were clearly facts that best describes the fallacy you parrot around as being "logic". To always reduce people's points to personal attacks leaves your kind nothing more than clowns pretending to be apostles of logics. . .

Lol.....you sound hurt

Personal attacks? You were the king of personal attacks until I tamed you. I tamed you by showing you your hypocrisy when claiming to be a true muslim while having the mouth of a football hooligan

vedaxcool: @mr. "My father is rich" , I can understand why you termed the truth anger since to go against well established facts will make you look in all regards a serial liar, but I restate that all I said were clearly facts that best describes the fallacy you parrot around as being "logic". To always reduce people's points to personal attacks leaves your kind nothing more than clowns pretending to be apostles of logics. . .

Nuff said!

vedaxcool:

Nuff said!

Pitiful loser!

@ logicboy,

I am yet to see an official Catholic Church document from you to show that Catholic doctrine supported participation in slavery. Perhaps you can give me a snapshot of the text (online or offline) with the link when you find one, let's compare and contrast with what you have typed here. Also kindly provide texts from two official documents to show that they contradict eachother in terms of doctrine.

I cannot accept what non-Catholics and anti-Catholics say about the Church doctrine; what do they know - with their usual biased minds.

logicboy:
Slavery incorporated into Canon Law
In the early thirteenth century, official support for slavery and the slave trade was incorporated into Canon Law (Corpus Iuris Canonici), by Pope Gregory IX,.[61][62] Canon law provided for four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.
Slavery was imposed as an ecclesiastical penalty by General Councils and local Church councils and Popes, 1179-1535...
(a) The crime of assisting the Saracens 1179-1450.....
(b) The crime of selling Christian slaves to the Saracens 1425. Pope Martin V issued two constitutions. Traffic in Christian slaves was not forbidden, but only their sale to non Christian masters.
(c) The crime of brigandage in the Pyrenees mountainous districts, 1179.
(d)Unjust aggression or other crimes, 1309-1535. The penalty of capture and enslavement for Christian families or cities or states was enacted several times by Popes. Those sentenced included Venetians in 1309.[63]
Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[64] Little seems to have happened before the order was removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery


1) You must be willfully ignorant if you are in denial of catholic support of the inquisitions and crusades. owever, if there is a just reason for war then one should defend himself.

What I want everyone to know is the nature and level of involvement we had and if its as bad as you make it seem. That's why I want to see some evidence, not just loose allegations.

logicboy: 2) I will not put up proof so that I can see the kind of person you are whether you will look up the truth on whether the catholic church supported the those wars.

Since we both agree that there is something like a just war, then there is no need to dwell on this, is there?

logicboy: 3) Torture of heretics; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Tribunals_and_institutions

Again, wikipedia. What we need to see is where Catholic doctrine supported "torture of heretics" and where they stopped supporting it. We can find that from an official Church document, not wiki.

logicboy: No, such teaching has been removed. There is salvation outside the catholic church and that is an admission grudgingly made by the catholic church.

Read CCC 846: "outside the Church there is no salvation"

logicboy: Long story short- babies go to purgatory. Babies are atheists. Babies later go to heaven.

Atheists go to heaven

That is your doctrine, not Catholic doctrine. If you insist, evidence!

logicboy: 1) Slavery was in canon law.

2) The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy.[1] Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.

Look, I'm not talking about civil or legal matters, ok. Give me evidence from Catholic doctrine, please.

logicboy:
they did. look up slavery and the catholic church

I have looked it up and found many contrasting testimonies, depending on whose account you believe.

italo: @ logicboy,

I am yet to see an official Catholic Church document from you to show that Catholic doctrine supported participation in slavery. Perhaps you can give me a snapshot of the text (online or offline) with the link when you find one, let's compare and contrast with what you have typed here. Also kindly provide texts from two official documents to show that they contradict eachother in terms of doctrine.

I cannot accept what non-Catholics and anti-Catholics say about the Church doctrine; what do they know - with their usual biased minds.

You are just desperate now. Slavery was clearly supported by canon law in he catholic church. It got changed. For you to deny this, shows the liar you are.

There is no more reason for me to debate with you when you discard facts.



As for the catholic teaching on puragtory, can you tell me where dead babies go? I am telling you what I was taught in cathechism under supervision of a bishop.

Go back in time. Read philosophy texts. The people who were most occupied the ancient Egyptian mystery system (from which philosophers like Socrates & Plato got their inspiration) were blacks. Blacks are smart enough to intuitively realize that human existence is contingent on a thinking being who lies outside our plane of existence. Isn't it funny that wherever the British or Spanish explorers went they found blacks and found out that they where very spiritual.

Uyi Iredia: Go back in time. Read philosophy texts. The people who were most occupied the ancient Egyptian mystery system (from which philosophers like Socrates & Plato got their inspiration) were blacks. Blacks are smart enough to intuitively realize that human existence is contingent on a thinking being who lies outside our plane of existence. Isn't it funny that wherever the British or Spanish explorers went they found blacks and found out that they where very spiritual.

This is 2012 and belief in God is quite useless. There is nothing that a god-believeing life can do that a godless one can not.


Lots of races were spiritual also. So your point is moot

logicboy:
You are just desperate now. Slavery was clearly supported by canon law in he catholic church. It got changed. For you to deny this, shows the liar you are.

I said show me an official Church document that shows that Catholic doctrine supports slavery and one that highlight a change in this doctrine. Is that too much to ask? Are you afraid that what you posted might be different from what is obtainable in official Church documents?

logicboy: There is no more reason for me to debate with you when you discard facts.

You cannot just pick up something, anywhere on the internet and expect me to accept them as facts. And of course there are contrary views to what you posted on the internet too.

logicboy: As for the catholic teaching on puragtory, can you tell me where dead babies go? I am telling you what I was taught in cathechism under supervision of a bishop.

The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go.

What bishop supervised that teaching? What was the nature of the supervision.

italo:

I said show me an official Church document that shows that Catholic doctrine supports slavery and one that highlight a change in this doctrine. Is that too much to ask? Are you afraid that what you posted might be different from what is obtainable in official Church documents?



You cannot just pick up something, anywhere on the internet and expect me to accept them as facts. And of course there are contrary views to what you posted on the internet too.



The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go.

What bishop supervised that teaching? What was the nature of the supervision.

You want me to find a document showing the support of slavery from the 13th century? Would the catholic church post it online? Ode.

There is argument against what pope Gregory IX did. You are grasping at straws. Historians have said that it was put into canon law. If it was a lie, people would have been sued and an injuction imposed.



As for babies going to heaven;


In the Gospel of Life (Evangelium Vitae) Pope John Paul II says the following:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion . The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life.

logicboy:
You want me to find a document showing the support of slavery from the 13th century? Would the catholic church post it online? Ode.

There is argument against what pope Gregory IX did. You are grasping at straws. Historians have said that it was put into canon law. If it was a lie, people would have been sued and an injuction imposed.

Historians have also said something different from what you are saying. Catholic doctrine is not something that is kept in secret. If it was taught by the Catholic Church, there would be at least one official Church document like the one you quoted below that would reflect it...and you can find many of these documents online. Even today, people continue to lay false accusations against the Church, how many have been sued? Which historian said it, by the way?

logicboy: As for babies going to heaven;

In the Gospel of Life (Evangelium Vitae) Pope John Paul II says the following:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion . The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life.

We are not arguing about babies going to "heaven". You said "babies go to purgatory!" So there is no use quoting this document. Bring me the one that says "babies go to purgatory". Thank God you know how to find these documents. You have no excuse anymore.

Also, you haven't told me what bishop supervised this teaching that babies go to purgatory, and the nature of the supervision. Mr "hardcore Catholic for 22yrs"

italo:

Historians have also said something different from what you are saying. Catholic doctrine is not something that is kept in secret. If it was taught by the Catholic Church, there would be at least one official Church document like the one you quoted below that would reflect it...and you can find many of these documents online. Even today, people continue to lay false accusations against the Church, how many have been sued? Which historian said it, by the way?

It's a lie. [size=18pt]The fact remains that pope Gregory IX put slavery into canon law.[/size] There is no evidence against it. It was canon law. to deny it shows that you're a liar. The truth is there and no one is denying it.

italo:

We are not arguing about babies going to "heaven". You said "babies go to purgatory!" So there is no use quoting this document. Bring me the one that says "babies go to purgatory". Thank God you know how to find these documents. You have no excuse anymore.

Also, you haven't told me what bishop supervised this teaching that babies go to purgatory, and the nature of the supervision. Mr "hardcore Catholic for 22yrs"

Babies still have original sin if they are not babptized, dont they? What happens to innocent but unclean people? They go to purgatory for cleansing before heaven. End of story.


You are just desperate

logicboy:
It's a lie. [size=18pt]The fact remains that pope Gregory IX put slavery into canon law.[/size] There is no evidence against it. It was canon law. to deny it shows that you're a liar. The truth is there and no one is denying it.

My friend, you can't rant all you want. Hit me when you find evidence.

logicboy: Babies still have original sin if they are not babptized, dont they? What happens to innocent but unclean people? They go to purgatory for cleansing before heaven. End of story.

Purgatory is not for people with original sins. Its for people who have venial sins and unpaid temporal punishment. The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go. If you say they do, EVIDENCE! And you haven't told me the Bishop that supervised that teaching that babies go to purgatory o.

logicboy: You are just desperate

You're clueless.

italo:

My friend, you can't rant all you want. Hit me when you find evidence.

Wow, so this is the length that you would go to defending your evil catholic church after posting evidence of pope Gregory's activities, you act as if it doesnt exist. I will post again so that everyone will see the evil person you are.

Pope Gregory ix put slavery into canon law;

[b]Slavery incorporated into Canon Law
[/b]In the early thirteenth century, official support for slavery and the slave trade was incorporated into Canon Law (Corpus Iuris Canonici), by Pope Gregory IX,.[61][62] Canon law provided for four just titles for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave.
Slavery was imposed as an ecclesiastical penalty by General Councils and local Church councils and Popes, 1179-1535...
(a) The crime of assisting the Saracens 1179-1450.....
(b) The crime of selling Christian slaves to the Saracens 1425. Pope Martin V issued two constitutions. Traffic in Christian slaves was not forbidden, but only their sale to non Christian masters.
(c) The crime of brigandage in the Pyrenees mountainous districts, 1179.
(d)Unjust aggression or other crimes, 1309-1535. The penalty of capture and enslavement for Christian families or cities or states was enacted several times by Popes. Those sentenced included Venetians in 1309.[63]
Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[64] Little seems to have happened before the order was removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#Slavery_incorporated_into_Canon_Law


More proof of slavery;
The Third Lateran Council of 1179 imposed slavery on those helping the Saracens. The legitimacy of slavery was incorporated in the official Corpus Iuris Canonici, based on the Decretum Gratiani, which became the official law of the Church since Pope Gregory IX in 1226:
24. Cruel avarice has so seized the hearts of some that though they glory in the name of Christians they provide the Saracens with arms and wood for helmets, and become their equals or even their superiors in wickedness and supply them with arms and necessaries to attack Christians. There are even some who for gain act as captains or pilots in galleys or Saracen pirate vessels. Therefore we declare that such persons should be cut off from the communion of the church and be excommunicated for their wickedness, that catholic princes and civil magistrates should confiscate their possessions, and that if they are captured they should become the slaves of their captors. We order that throughout the churches of maritime cities frequent and solemn excommunication should be pronounced against them. Let those also be under excommunication who dare to rob Romans or other Christians who sail for trade or other honourable purposes. Let those also who in the vilest avarice presume to rob shipwrecked Christians, whom by the rule of faith they are bound to help, know that they are excommunicated unless they return the stolen property.
http://churchslavery..co.uk/

italo:
Purgatory is not for people with original sins. Its for people who have venial sins and unpaid temporal punishment. The Church has no definite teaching on where unbaptized babies go. If you say they do, EVIDENCE! And you haven't told me the Bishop that supervised that teaching that babies go to purgatory o.



You're clueless.

So people who can go straight to heaven with original sin? Epic fail

The problem man has is that we tend to tell our selves lies and believe them .We lied to ourselves that we were "upgraded" monkeys produce by evolution yet no other monkey has upgraded after us .we lied to ourselves that the study of life is science but we refuse to remember that science is just a discovery of God's delivery . Now to the question the reason africans believes in god is d that there is God tho we are been carried away by the discovery (science )instead of the. deliverer (God)that does n't change the fact that there is God

Where is Italo?