@ enigma
Meriam- webster dictionary defines a free thinker as one who forms opinions on the basis of reason, independently of authority; one who has rejected dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

i wish we should not derail this thread and address the topic of this thread.

I have not derailed the thread.

I know how "freethinker" is defined from various sources. The fact that an expression has been or may be hijacked does not mean that its fundamental and intrinsic meaning should be forgotten. Oh just like we know what the term "gay" now means!

My post did not seek to prevent the ongoing discussion and only made a germane observation which I maintain: a true free thinker does not need anyone to prove the existence or non-existence of God to him.

I am happy to leave things at that and let you continue your 'debate'.

@cyrexx

Forgive me one more post before resumption of the debate.

Do you realise that my little exchange with you has demonstrated how to ascertain a true free thinker?

Look at this: for the definition of "free thinker" you needed a dictionary; whereas I didn't but simply looked to intrinsicness.

Which one of us has demonstrated "free thinking"?

Let me run away from here with the statement below.

"A truly gay man can be a heterosexual".

@ italo,
i'm still waiting for ur reply, can you state the reasons why you are so convinced that God exists

italo:
Religious people can also explain faith and the existence of God to you and tell you how religious leaders conclude on the existence of God

@cyrexx
U don dey ID the trolls. Nice.

@cyrexx,

Sorry just a little more time.

italo: @cyrexx,

Sorry just a little more time.

thanxx, i'm very much around for you, not going anywhere.

peace.

@ cyrexx, I hope you are truly "open-minded" as you said and you remain so.

I am not an expert in convincing Atheists on the existence of God... Because, I have never really cared what Atheists think. I usually just leave them to their faith because most of them, I feel, are not Atheists because they have not experienced God and the spiritual; they have, but still reject God out of pride.

But I can tell you why I know God exists:

I got to know God as early as I got to know myself... Because the most trusted people around me told me about him and took me to Church. From a tender age I believed in God, exactly as I was taught in Church. But, growing up, I went past the "believing" stage to the realization stage.

I started to experience God just as I had been taught. I talk to God, and he responds, in an audible voice from nowhere a few times, other times, with signs - as I had been taught. I have seen the effect of living a holy life and the effects of living in sin. I have seen how God fights my cause when I'm powerless and helpless. I have experienced God reveal future events to me in dreams. I have seen God (the author of nature) suspend the laws of nature. I have seen a documentary of incorruptible saints and how scientists tested to find the reason those bodies refused to decompose...to no avail... And many other miracles like that.

I have seen God, heard God, eaten God in the Blessed Sacrament.

...And I have seen the profound effect it has on my life.

italo: @ cyrexx, I hope you are truly "open-minded" as you said and you remain so.

I am not an expert in convincing Atheists on the existence of God... Because, I have never really cared what Atheists think. I usually just leave them to their faith because most of them, I feel, are not Atheists because they have not experienced God and the spiritual; they have, but still reject God out of pride.

But I can tell you why I know God exists:

I got to know God as early as I got to know myself... Because the most trusted people around me told me about him and took me to Church. From a tender age I believed in God, exactly as I was taught in Church. But, growing up, I went past the "believing" stage to the realization stage.

I started to experience God just as I had been taught. I talk to God, and he responds, in an audible voice from nowhere a few times, other times, with signs - as I had been taught. I have seen the effect of living a holy life and the effects of living in sin. I have seen how God fights my cause when I'm powerless and helpless. I have experienced God reveal future events to me in dreams. I have seen God (the author of nature) suspend the laws of nature. I have seen a documentary of incorruptible saints and how scientists tested to find the reason those bodies refused to decompose...to no avail... And many other miracles like that.

I have seen God, heard God, eaten God in the Blessed Sacrament.

...And I have seen the profound effect it has on my life.

Miracles have always been proven to be a hoax. Always.

What is the name of this documentary?




It

@ italo,

we are looking at the same situation from totally different standpoints. Yours subjective, mine objective. But sincerely, I wish God (if he truly exists) can talk to humans like you claimed. I want to believe you are being honest when you said God talks to you ( that you are not referring to some mental monologues and audio hallucinations that many people attribute to God).


if He exists and he can truly talk to me too. the first 3 questions i will ask him is.

why did he permit different religions on earth to confuse mankind about his identity..

why did he (according to the holy books) create a torture chamber to burn men forever without destroying them for not believing some things in the holy books that contradict themselves.(cos i dont want to believe He exists out of fear of hell, such a wicked god does not deserve any worship he gets).

why did He neglect when people genuinely pray for relief from suffering and there is no answer from Him (this is based on personal experience).

i hope one day he will talk to me personally (i.e. if he exists), answer my questions and dispel all my honest doubts about his existence.

cyrexx: @ italo,
we are looking at the same situation from totally different standpoints. Yours subjective, mine objective. But sincerely, I wish God (if he truly exists) can talk to humans like you claimed. I want to believe you are being honest when you said God talks to you ( that you are not referring to some mental monologues and audio hallucinations that many people attribute to God).

It is already a subjective statement to say I'm looking at it subjectively. Its your own opinion and you have no evidence of that. God responds to people in different ways as I said earlier but it all depends on your relationship with him. Relationship with God is somewhat like relationship with man. Aren't there people you talk to and those you don't talk to? Sometimes its due to the way they talk or act with you. Let us imagine I told you there's a man that all powerful in Nigeria and can get you anything you want or take anything from you in Nigeria (though you are not sure of the existence of such a man). If I put you on the phone to someone, and I told you it was him, wouldn't you naturally be polite and humble before him? So it should be with someone who is genuinely seeking the truth about God. I say he created the world, almighty, he loves us and demands our worship. If you truly seek clarity on such a being, you must do so with utmost humility and open-mindedness. Trust me, I'm not a fanatic. Even I, who believe, used to wonder if those who said they heard a serene clear voice from nowhere speak to them, were just exaggerating. Until I heard it. Serene and clear like they always described.

cyrexx:
why did he permit different religions on earth to confuse mankind about his identity..

why did he (according to the holy books) create a torture chamber to burn men forever without destroying them for not believing some things in the holy books that contradict themselves.(cos i dont want to believe He exists out of fear of hell, such a wicked god does not deserve any worship he gets).

why did He neglect when people genuinely pray for relief from suffering and there is no answer from Him (this is based on personal experience).

i hope one day he will talk to me personally (i.e. if he exists), answer my questions and dispel all my honest doubts about his existence.

Be humble and ask God to reveal himself to you. The answer might not be immediate or audible, but God will reveal himself to you because he loves you as much as he loves me.

cyrexx: @ italo,
we are looking at the same situation from totally different standpoints. Yours subjective, mine objective. But sincerely, I wish God (if he truly exists) can talk to humans like you claimed. I want to believe you are being honest when you said God talks to you ( that you are not referring to some mental monologues and audio hallucinations that many people attribute to God).

It is already a subjective statement to say I'm looking at it subjectively. Its your own opinion and you have no evidence of that. God responds to people in different ways as I said earlier but it all depends on your relationship with him. Relationship with God is somewhat like relationship with man. Aren't there people you talk to and those you don't talk to? Sometimes its due to the way they talk or act with you. Let us imagine I told you there's a man that all powerful in Nigeria and can get you anything you want or take anything from you in Nigeria (though you are not sure of the existence of such a man). If I put you on the phone to someone, and I told you it was him, wouldn't you naturally be polite and humble before him? So it should be with someone who is genuinely seeking the truth about God. I say he created the world, almighty, he loves us and demands our worship. If you truly seek clarity on such a being, you must do so with utmost humility and open-mindedness. Trust me, I'm not a fanatic. Even I, who believe, used to wonder if those who said they heard a serene clear voice from nowhere speak to them, were just exaggerating. Until I heard it. Serene and clear like they always described.

cyrexx:
why did he permit different religions on earth to confuse mankind about his identity..

why did he (according to the holy books) create a torture chamber to burn men forever without destroying them for not believing some things in the holy books that contradict themselves.(cos i dont want to believe He exists out of fear of hell, such a wicked god does not deserve any worship he gets).

why did He neglect when people genuinely pray for relief from suffering and there is no answer from Him (this is based on personal experience).

i hope one day he will talk to me personally (i.e. if he exists), answer my questions and dispel all my honest doubts about his existence.

Be humble and ask God to reveal himself to you. The answer might not be immediate or audible, but God will reveal himself to you because he loves you as much as he loves me.

italo: . . . . Be humble and ask God to reveal himself to you. The answer might not be immediate or audible, but God will reveal himself to you because he loves you as much as he loves me.

Nice.

^^^ To suport the above, here is one I made earlier

Enigma: Yep, but we must first humble ourselves.

To be honest, "all" that we really need to know to relate with God are very simple.

The "intellectual" stuff are additions really; they can be very good if we handle them carefully; but they can be stumbling blocks if we handle them wrongly -------or if we fail to do the first thing i.e. to humble ourselves.

God revealed himself to me and he said his name is allah and mohammed is his last messenger. . .

God exist and relies on italo to defend his "truth" and make his case for him,eh?. . .Is is not the same god that was said to be addressing the ancient jews true public speech in pages of story books, writing on walls, fightig along side them etc. . .God only revels himself in the pages of ancient story books eh?. . .Interesting. . .

Enigma: ^^^ To suport the above, here is one I made earlier

Very true

Italo,

Here is what your bishop says about atheists;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24UOgClzvqk

Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.

emöfine2: Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.

Agreed.

emöfine2: Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.

I don't think its necessarily wrong to believe that Atheism is a taboo; even some Atheists, "whites" especially, treat religion as a taboo to. Moreover, you just said "everyone has a right to their belief." What I do not subscribe to, is treating people of other creeds badly. Jesus certainly didn't teach me that; indeed, the opposite was what he taught.

@ logicboy, I can't watch videos on my phone. Perhaps you could just type out what he said that you want to bring to my attention.

emöfine2: Why Do So Many Black People (including Nigerians) Believe In God?

Whilst I believe that everyone has a right to their belief and I respect that, there seems to be a taboo amongst the “black” community concerning unbelief/atheism from my observation.

I don't think its necessarily wrong to believe that Atheism is a taboo; even some Atheists, "whites" especially, treat religion as a taboo to. Moreover, you just said "everyone has a right to their belief." What I do not subscribe to, is treating people of other creeds badly. Jesus certainly didn't teach me that; indeed, the opposite was what he taught.

ijawkid: HehehehÉ....kunta kinte..


But have u asked urself how and where d theorÝ of evolution came from??

Is it still not from d white guys??

Slaveryyyyyyyy!!

powerful answer! Atheism, christianity all from the 'white' homosapien

ijawkid:

Lol....u make me laugh logic boy..

So whites brought christianity but evolution was brought by everybody...

No make me laugh die ooo...

How is that

No be white man courses like philosophy and biology wey we begin hear of evolution

Tell me.....

abi thank you bros ask am abeg

logicboy:

No, we were not taught evolution. We were just taught different species. Homo sapien, home erectus, homo habilis etc There was no explanation of the process or theory behind it. That is why no one in secondary school in Nigeria ever thought of it debunking the bible. Thats why you didnt believe it


Furthermore, even if there is a creator (Which I honestly doubt) he is not and should not be Jesus to a West African

ok since he shouldnt be jesus then are you ready to dump the white man crap and accept our juju for a change

italo:

I don't reject the evolution theory, but that doesn't mean I see it as a fact - it is not a fact that humans evolved from fishes. And even if it were, you seem not to be aware that "facts" are not necessarily true. There are so many "scientific facts" that have been later found to be false. I know what a scientific theory is: it is NOT FACT!

Its you who is most ignorant. You have never seen or touched a fossil, have you? So going by you method of testing for evidence, its safe to say you know nothing about them. Unless you are basing your argument on FAITH in what scientists say... Are you?

You still haven't told me how to prove to a blind man that the sky is blue...and to a deaf man that birds sing. Instead you keep replying rubbish. Your epic failure!

logicboy see kwetion, answer logically

@logicboy As for dreaming, we all dream. Do we not see our dreams? I can see mydream. End of story. i have read on this forum where atheist have reject an argument that is subjective, and here you are saying the prove of "the type" of dream you dreamt is known by you ONLY. Even the EEG/ECG machine cannot tell us WHAT was your dream, yet you people reject a subjective evidence of ones experience of God!

logicboy: Italo,

Here is what your bishop says about atheists;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24UOgClzvqk

I don't exactly know what you are trying to point out...

"Atheists can go to heaven"

What about that?

@italo this is wat the clip shows
Moderator:will atheist go to heaven?
Pastor: its none of my business
Moderator: but you are an authority on this issue
Pastor: certainly certainly (clapping of hands) stop
The clip was just 18sec and i feel the pastor man has not finished explaining and it stopped.

@ hisblud, thanks.

Its even more confusing, what logicboy wants from this video...

hisblud: @italo this is wat the clip shows
Moderator:will atheist go to heaven?
Pastor: its none of my business
Moderator: but you are an authority on this issue
Pastor: certainly certainly (clapping of hands) stop
The clip was just 18sec and i feel the pastor man has not finished explaining and it stopped.

What I don't understand is, is logicboy gunning for heaven, why should he keep on repeating the same video clip thread after thread? What does it prove? That atheism is good? I pity for him, I suspect inferiority complex could be one of the reasons he became an atheist, asking us to worship African gods seems to show the low intellect he thinks of others, why can't he worship African gods? What ever excuse you think stops u -logicboy- from doing such is also applicable to us, what if we turned around and say why do black people follow atheism to be accepted by white people? And I tell you all these we can provide evidence to support.

@vedacool it seems my guy (logicboy) is flip flopping and is finding more reason why he MUST remain an atheist but i wish he can choose atleast african juju and taste it

hisblud: @vedacool it seems my guy (logicboy) is flip flopping and is finding more reason why he MUST remain an atheist but i wish he can choose atleast african juju and taste it

Lol yeah no wonder he invokes evolution, now is atheist can make it to heaven, what next?