@Pilgrim.1:

Meaning of `Inheriting Women Against Their Will

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said about the Ayah,
(O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will,) "Before, the practice was that when a man dies, his male relatives used to have the right to do whatever they wanted with his wife. If one of them wants, he would marry her, give her in marriage, or prevent her from marriage, for they had more right to her than her own family. Thereafter, this Ayah was revealed about this practice

(O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will).''

Women Should not Be Treated with Harshness

Allah said,
(nor to prevent them from marriage, in order to take part of what you have given them,) Allah commands: Do not treat the woman harshly so that she gives back all or part of the dowry that she was given, or forfeits one of her rights by means of coercion and oppression. Allah's statement,

(unless they commit open Fahishah.) Ibn Mas`ud, Ibn `Abbas, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Muhammad bin Sirin, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Ad-Dahhak, Abu Qilabah, Abu Salih, As-Suddi, Zayd bin Aslam and Sa`id bin Abi Hilal said that this refers to illicit sex. Meaning that if the wife commits adultery, you are allowed to take back the dowry you gave her. You are also allowed to annoy her, until she gives back the dowry in return for a Khula`.'' In Surat Al-Baqarah, Allah said,

(And it is not lawful for you (men) to take back (from your wives) any of what you have given them, except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah) [2:229]. Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrimah and Ad-Dahhak said that Fahishah refers to disobedience and defiance. Ibn Jarir chose the view that it is general, encompasses all these meanings, adultery, disobedience, defiance, rudeness, and so forth. Meaning that he is allowed to annoy his wife when she does any of these acts until she forfeits all or part of her rights and he then separates from her, and this [view] is good, and Allah knows best.

Live With Women Honorably

Allah said,
(And live with them honorably), by saying kind words to them, treating them kindly and making your appearance appealing for them, as much as you can, just as you like the same from them. Allah said in another Ayah,
(And they have rights similar over them to what is reasonable) [2:228]. The Messenger of Allah said,

(The best among you is he who is the best with his family. Verily, I am the best one among you with my family.) It was the practice of the Messenger of Allah to be kind, cheerful, playful with his wives, compassionate, spending on them and laughing with them. The Messenger used to race with `A'ishah, the Mother of the Faithful, as a means of kindness to her. `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah raced with me and I won the race. This occurred before I gained weight, and afterwards I raced with him again, and he won that race. He said

(This [victory ] is for that [victory].)'' When the Prophet was at the home of one of his wives, sometimes all of his wives would meet there and eat together, and they would then go back to their homes. He and his wife would sleep in the same bed, he would remove his upper garment, sleeping in only his lower garment. The Prophet used to talk to the wife whose night it was, after praying `Isha' and before he went to sleep. Allah said,

(Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow) [33:21]. Allah said,
(If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.) Allah says that your patience, which is demonstrated by keeping wives whom you dislike, carries good rewards for you in this life and the Hereafter. Ibn `Abbas commented on this Ayah, "That the husband may feel compassion towards his wife and Allah gives him a child with her, and this child carries tremendous goodness.'' An authentic Hadith states,
(No believing man should hate his believing wife. If he dislikes a part of her conduct, he would surely like another.)


Marrying the Wife of the Father is Prohibited

Allah said,
(And marry not women whom your fathers married,) Allah prohibits marrying the women whom the father married, in honor and respect to the fathers, not allowing their children to have sexual relations with their wives after they die. A woman becomes ineligible for the son of her husband as soon as the marriage contract is conducted, and there is a consensus on this ruling. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "During the time of Jahiliyyah, the people used to prohibit what Allah prohibits (concerning marriage), except marrying the stepmother and taking two sisters as rival wives. Allah sent down,

(And marry not women whom your fathers married,) and,
(and two sisters in wedlock at the same time) [4:23].'' Similar was reported from `Ata' and Qatadah. Therefore, the practice that the Ayah mentions is prohibited for this Ummah, being disgraced as an awful sin,
(Indeed it was shameful and Maqtan, and an evil way.) Allah said in other Ayat,

(Come not near to Al-Fawahish (shameful acts) whether committed openly or secretly) [6:151], and,
(And come not near to unlawful sex. Verily, it is a Fahishah and an evil way.) [17:32] In this Ayah (4:22), Allah added,
(and Maqtan), meaning, offensive. It is a sin itself and causes the son to hate his father after he marries his wife. It is usual that whoever marries a woman dislikes those who married her before him. This is one reason why the Mothers of the Faithful were not allowed for anyone in marriage after the Messenger . They are indeed the Mothers of the Faithful since they married the Messenger , who is like the father to the believers. Rather, the Prophet's right is far greater than the right of a father, and his love comes before each person loving himself, may Allah's peace and blessings be on him. `Ata' bin Abi Rabah said that the Ayah,

(and Maqtan), means, Allah will hate him,
(and an evil way), for those who take this way. Therefore, those who commit this practice will have committed an act of reversion from the religion and deserve capital punishment and confiscation of their property, which will be given to the Muslim Treasury. Imam Ahmad and the collectors of Sunan recorded that Al-Bara' bin `Azib said that his uncle Abu Burdah was sent by the Messenger of Allah to a man who married his stepmother to execute him and confiscate his money.

(23. Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mothers who suckled you, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your stepdaughters under your guardianship, born of your wives unto whom you have gone in -- but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in unto them (to marry their daughters), -- the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

Degrees of Women Never Eligible for One to Marry

This honorable Ayah is the Ayah that establishes the degrees of women relatives who are never eligible for one to marry, because of blood relations, relations established by suckling or marriage. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "(Allah said) I have prohibited for you seven types of relatives by blood and seven by marriage.'' Ibn `Abbas then recited the Ayah,

(Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, ) At-Tabari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Seven degrees of blood relation and seven degrees of marriage relation are prohibited (for marriage).'' He then recited the Ayah,
(Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters) and these are the types prohibited by blood relation.'' Allah's statement,

(Your foster mothers who suckled you, your foster milk suckling sisters) means, just as your mother who bore you is prohibited for you in marriage, so is your mother from suckling prohibited for you. Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that `A'ishah, the Mother of the Faithful, said that the Messenger of Allah said,
(Suckling prohibits what birth prohibits.) In another narration reported by Muslim,
(Suckling establishes prohibited degrees just as blood does.)

A Doubt and Rebuttal

Why is the wife of one's son from suckling prohibited for him for marriage - that is, if she is no longer married to his son from suckling - as the majority of scholars state, although they are not related by blood The answer is the Prophet's statement,
(Suckling prohibits what blood relations prohibit.)


The Permission to Marry All Other Women

Allah said,
(All others are lawful) meaning, you are allowed to marry women other than the prohibited types mentioned here, as `Ata' and others have stated. Allah's statement,
(provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication,) meaning, you are allowed to use your money to marry up to four wives and for (the purchase of) as many female slaves as you like, all through legal means,


((desiring) chastity, not fornication.) Allah's statement,
(So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due,) means, to enjoy them sexually, surrender to them their rightful dowry as compensation. In other Ayat, Allah said,
(And how could you take it (back) while you have gone in unto each other),

(And give to the women (whom you marry) their dowry with a good heart), and,
(And it is not lawful for you (men) to take back (from your wives) any of what (dowry) you gave them)

Prohibiting the Mut`ah of Marriage

Mujahid stated that,
(So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due,) was revealed about the Mut`ah marriage. A Mut`ah marriage is a marriage that ends upon a predeterminied date. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that the Leader of the Faithful `Ali bin Abi Talib said, "The Messenger of Allah prohibited Mut`ah marriage and eating the meat of domesticated donkeys on the day of Khaybar (battle).'' In addition, in his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Ar-Rabi` bin Sabrah bin Ma`bad Al-Juhani said that his father said that he accompanied the Messenger of Allah during the conquest of Makkah, and that the Prophet said,

(O people! I allowed you the Mut`ah marriage with women before. Now, Allah has prohibited it until the Day of Resurrection. Therefore, anyone who has any women in Mut`ah, let him let them go, and do not take anything from what you have given them.) Allah's statement,
(but if you agree mutually (to give more) after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you.) is similar to His other statement,

(And give to the women their dowry with a good heart). The meaning of these Ayat is: If you have stipulated a dowry for her, and she later forfeits it, either totally or partially, then this bears no harm on you or her in this case. Ibn Jarir said, "Al-Hadrami said that some men would designate a certain dowry, but then fall into financial difficulties. Therefore, Allah said that there is no harm on you, O people, concerning your mutual agreement after the requirement (has been determined).'' meaning, if she gives up part of the dowry, then you men are allowed to accept that. Allah's statement,

(Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.) is suitable here, after Allah mentioned these prohibitions.
(25. And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess, and Allah has full knowledge about your faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians) and give them their due in a good manner; they should be chaste, not fornicators, nor promiscuous. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit Fahishah, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women. This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)


Marrying a Female Slave, if One Cannot Marry a Free Woman

Allah said, those who do not have,
(the means), financial capability,
(Wherewith to wed free believing women) meaning, free faithful, chaste women.
(They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess,) meaning, they are allowed to wed believing slave girls owned by the believers.
(and Allah has full knowledge about your faith; you are one from another.) Allah knows the true reality and secrets of all things, but you people know only the apparent things. Allah then said,
(Wed them with the permission of their own folk) indicating that the owner is responsible for the slave girl, and consequently, she cannot marry without his permission. The owner is also responsible for his male slave and they cannot wed without his permission. A Hadith state

(Any male slave who marries without permission from his master, is a fornicator.) When the owner of the female slave is a female, those who are allowed to give away the free woman in marriage, with her permission, become responsible for giving away her female slave in marriage, as well. A Hadith states that
(The woman does not give away another woman, or herself in marriage, for only the adulteress gives herself away in marriage.) Allah's statement,

(And give them their due in a good manner meaning, pay them their dowry with a good heart, and do not keep any of it, belittling the matter due to the fact that they are owned slaves. Allah's statement,
(they should be chaste) means, they are honorable women who do not commit adultery, and this is why Allah said,
(not fornicators) referring to dishonorable women, who do not refrain from illicit sexual relations with those who ask. Ibn `Abbas said that the fornicating women are the whores, who do not object to having relations with whomever seeks it, while,
(nor promiscuous. ) refers to taking boyfriends. Similar was said by Abu Hurayrah, Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Ad-Dahhak, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Yahya bin Abi Kathir, Muqatil bin Hayyan and As-Suddi.


Forbidding Murder and Suicide

Allah said,
(And do not kill yourselves.) by committing Allah's prohibitions, falling into sin and eating up each other's property unjustly,
(Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.) in what He commanded you and prohibited you from. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Amr bin Al-`As said that when the Prophet sent him for the battle of Dhat As-Salasil, "I had a wet dream during a very cold night and feared that if I bathed, I would die. So I performed Tayammum (with pure earth) and led my company in the Dawn prayer. When I went back to the Messenger of Allah , I mentioned what had happened to me and he said,

(O `Amr! Have you led your people in prayer while you were in a state of sexual impurity) I said, 'O Messenger of Allah! I had a wet dream on a very cold night and feared that if I bathed I would perish, and I remembered Allah's statement
(And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you). So I performed Tayammum and prayed.' The Messenger of Allah smiled and did not say anything.'' This is the narration reported by Abu Dawud. Ibn Marduwyah mentioned this honorable Ayah and then reported that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said

(Whoever kills himself with an iron tool, then his tool will be in his hand and he will keep stabbing himself with it in the Fire of Jahannam, forever and ever. Whoever kills himself with poison, then his poison will be in his hand and he will keep taking it in the Fire of Jahannam forever and ever. Whoever kills himself by throwing himself from a mountain, will keep falling in the Fire of Jahannam forever and ever.) This Hadith was also collected in the Two Sahihs. Abu Qilabah said that Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(Whoever kills himself with an instrument, will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.) This Hadith was collected by the Group. This is why Allah said,
(And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, ) meaning, whoever commits what Allah has forbidden for him transgression and injustice - while knowing that it is forbidden for him, yet he still dares to commit it,

(We shall cast him into the Fire,). This Ayah carries a stern warning and a truthful promise. Therefore, every sane person should beware of it, those who hear the speech with full comprehension.

Pilgrim, since the Qur'an has provided the rebuttal to your accusation of Allah's Messenger (as), I do not have to say anything in addition. I even included the law concerning murder and suicide, just to you and your type, that every matter has been addressed. So the hatman decree is firm on all man. The successful the Wariduha aleyha over the fire of hell, InshaAllah, will be Muslims.

However, some muslims will go to Hellfire for purification of soul, because of the sins committed on earth. But the lie from the liar who never repented and seek forgiveness and also dies as a non Muslim, will have an abode in the hellfire.

@Focused:  Wow you said a lot and I would have never known U said it until I scrolled up.  So let me reply to your ignorance by beginning with where you ended in one of your post.  most of your post centered on calling Muslims Jew haters and intolerant.  I was hoping to avoid this debate but U asked and I must crush it.  

U said: "at is why any country that adopts Islam as a state religion will never experience peace."  LOL.  One and only one response will completely annihilae all U have said about Muslims hating Jews and he failure of a Muslim state.  

Ask any Jew, any Jew and I repeat, any Jew in the world, what is considered the Golden Age of the Jews since the time of Moses.  The answer you will hear from every single Jew, academic or otherwise is that the Golden Age was during the four hundred years jews spent under the leadership of the Muslims in Spain.  This is when the Jews reached the greatest height in Jewish spirituality, mysticism, philosophy (Maimonides), etc.  I don't even have to say a word further.  

Now, the ironic or interesting thing about nthe Muslim initial conquest of Spain was that the Jews helped the Muslims defeat the xtian/Catholic (don't recall which) Visigoths.  now the Jews knew how the Muslims felt about their beliefs and yet they helped the Muslims defeat the Visigoths who had been oppressing them for years.  Then after the Muslims were eventually defeated in or about 1490, the Christians engaged in the grand inquisition, killing Jews and Muslims alike.  Using the navigation tooks developed bybthe Muslims, the Xtians then went on the conquer the west, africa, asia, enslaving people (and the Arabs are not free from some this, nor Muslims, nor the Africans themselves  for that matter)

So, I don't even have to give other examples as you have been clearly rebuffed.

Muslims do not hate Jews or anyone for that matter.  All we hate is what people say about God that is not true, and we have the right to hate that.  


As for the crescent star, this is not an Islamic symbol as it was never sanctioned by the Prophet.  Sure Muslims use it all over the world but that does not make it Islamic.  To be fair, the cross sure as hell aint no xtian symbol, its borrowed from  a Kemitc Egyptian symbol.  I am sure there are xtians that reject the cross as a xtian symbol.  I surely do not accept the crescent moon and star as the symbol of Islam.



Who is mohammed that they should not criticise him ?   Well, he is the greatest man to have ever lived that's who.  You live in the U.S. right.  Go an criticize President Bush and see if you do not get tazed.  Yet, you allow people to loosely criticize Jesus and don't lift a finger.  I don';t agree with the violent response of Muslims of today - as you usually find the most violent ones are the ones who are the least religious.  But, they have the right to, and should be allowed to protest peacefully.


"Have you forgotten that the Jews and Arabs are related?. They are all children of father Abraham, so why do most muslims have a great hatred for the jews ? Why are muslims against their existence in the middle east ?"

This is a crock of bull.  If you know anything, you know that the Arabs/Muslims and Jews lived side by side and drank coffeee together before the crestion of Israel.  What changed that?  U answer the Q.

"99.9% of muslims don't know the bible, and 99% don't even know the Quran. All they know is violence, senseless violence."  (where is your proof.  Like xtians know the Bible.  LOL.)


"First of all, Jesus was conceived through what we called immaculate conception, by the holy spirit, he was born of the virgin mary. he was not born as a result of sexual intercourse, just the way mohammed was born. Jesus is God the son. If you want me to explain more, I will. " (So?  Adam was created by the hand of God and that is even greater yet we do not worship him. )


"Your Quran is full of contradictions, that is why when mohammed die, there was no succession."   (Examples please, just two)

Much as i dislike having to read through large volumes of posts that really leave much to be desired, i couldnt hold back from countering so many of the errors that litter your post. . . you mentioned the jews being a part of the islamic conquest of Spain . . . that is false. The jews where not even a monolithic nation as at that period, having been vanquished by the Romans well before mohammed was born.

Lakpenne:

Well, he is the greatest man to have ever lived that's who.

this falsehood exists only in the minds of deluded muslims. Even atheists acknowledge the bible as the best selling book of all time. Surely you would expect the quran to occupy that position if indeed mohammed was the "greatest man who ever lived".

Lakpenne:

You live in the US. right. Go an criticize President Bush and see if you do not get tazed.

Again another fraudulent attempt to whitewash islam's predilection for violence. Bush is perhaps the most criticized US president of all time with an approval rating approaching single digits and YET we havent seen police officers arresting everyone for criticizing the president. Learn to speak the truth. Its not so hard.

Lakpenne:

Yet, you allow people to loosely criticize Jesus and don't lift a finger.

We dont need to lift a finger, Jesus Christ is alive and more than capable of defending Himself unlike your dead gods.

Lakpenne:

I don';t agree with the violent response of Muslims of today - as you usually find the most violent ones are the ones who are the least religious. But, they have the right to, and should be allowed to protest peacefully.

If only those protests are indeed peaceful! Perhaps you can tell us how it is possible to "peacefully" demand the execution of an individual.

Lakpenne:

This is a crock of bull. If you know anything, you know that the Arabs/Muslims and Jews lived side by side and drank coffeee together before the crestion of Israel. What changed that? You answer the Q.

nothing changed. you have only tried to use lies to obliterate the obvious. Allah cursed the jews, mohammed cursed the jews, the ottomans over-ran Jerusalem well before 1948. Forgotten the arab anti-jew riots that took place before 1948?

To blame muslim angst against Jews on the 1948 creation of Isreal is to simply play the game of deceit that muslims are adept at. The very statements that Hamas incorporates as its moto were not developed after 1948 but more than 1000yrs ago from the very words of Mohammed : -
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him, '
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.,

Unless of course the prophet lived beyond 1948.

Lakpenne:

"First of all, Jesus was conceived through what we called immaculate conception, by the holy spirit, he was born of the virgin mary. he was not born as a result of sexual intercourse, just the way mohammed was born. Jesus is God the son. If you want me to explain more, I will.

Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? Had he no father? Is this not an example of your frequent recourse to lies and deceit?

Lakpenne:

" (So? Adam was created by the hand of God and that is even greater yet we do not worship him. )

The biblical account of Adam's creation is clear - Let US make MAN in our own image.

@Nwando

I gave you a befitting response,

You actually did when you couldnt provide reason for the omission of the verses in other versions.

you either have it on the main text or on the footnotes and if you had an eye,you would have seen it.

I can see that you dont have your thinking cap on. Go through your response towards me and tell if you ever included that and please let me the version out of NIV, GBN, RSV that is having the verses on the footnotes and when doing that, please let me have the year of production of the version you are giving me. Your response further exposed the corruption of your book.

and if you didn't ,you could read it from the other synoptic gospel like Matthew as shown you,if you didn't see it,I can't help you

Yes you would surely help by revealing the corrupt book further. I asked you and your brother to supply me why the verse is missing but all you could do was nailed yourself by giving me a version (NIV) that is excluding the verse in question. If it is in the synoptic Gospel of Matthew, why not give it to me rather than exposing your fraud and please if it is in the synoptic gospel as you are claiming, why didnt the early puslishers include it?

Next!

More of your fraud please. Why is the verse not in some versions and why did the early edition excluded that verse and other important verses?

@davidylan

"The biblical account of Adam's creation is clear - Let US make MAN in our own image" Ummm, my point exactly. Adam was made from no mother or father, Jesus from Mother. Using your logic, Adam is a greater miracle. Jesus should have just come along spontaneously, now, that's pretty darn incredible.


"Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? Had he no father? Is this not an example of your frequent recourse to lies and deceit? " Again, so what. Why is immaculate conception so much more incredible than say Adam's birth. Please respond.

With respect to Spain, I ask you again to see when the Jews consider it to be their Golden Age. sure they are not monolithic, but just ask them. google it. wiki it. Just ask

"Surely you would expect the quran to occupy that position if indeed mohammed was the "greatest man who ever lived".

LOL - Well, the Quran is the most defended religious book and the best preserved. NEXT Question. Its not the Bible.

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him, '
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission., "

And your point being? ITs a prophecy of things to come. Guess who willbe the leader of the Muslims during this time, That's right, you guessed it, Jesus. The same Jesus that your dominionist compatriots in America say will return to kill the Jews. LOL. You kill me dude. U kill me.

"YET we havent seen police officers arresting everyone for criticizing the president. Learn to speak the truth. Its not so hard."

- its not mass scale, sure. Bush is hardly criticized in the type of crticiusm that matters. We cn begin with real criticism by impeaching him for lying about Iraq or just simply coming out and saying "Bush you are a liar" That's criticism, not this bullshit that pundits through out as useless talk.

BTW, I say here to U and to Focused that anyone who believes Muslims did 911 is an unbriddled and pathological idiot. U are a medical student right? A scientist or sorts? To believe Muslims did that is to believe in idiocy. I appreciate ur response but be warned, u might come out looking like an idiot.

Here's a bet, If I can show U Muslims more than likely did not do 911, u will stop posting on nairaland. Challenge?

Lakpenne:

"Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? Had he no father? Is this not an example of your frequent recourse to lies and deceit? " Again, so what. Why is immaculate conception so much more incredible than say Adam's birth. Please respond.

Answer questions and stop deflecting your own fraud. You claimed that Jesus was born via immaculate conception JUST like mohammed was born. Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? That is a straight forward question, stop playing musical chairs here.

Lakpenne:

With respect to Spain, I ask you again to see when the Jews consider it to be their Golden Age. sure they are not monolithic, but just ask them. google it. wiki it. Just ask

when you dont know how to cover your lies you start asking us to "wiki, google it" as if you are talking to people who dont know their history. Sorry, Jews were not a part of the Spanish conquest by muslims!

Lakpenne:

LOL - Well, the Quran is the most defended religious book and the best preserved. NEXT Question. Its not the Bible.

Yeah, it is the "most defended religious book" . . . one would expect that of a book that is nothing but a fraud.
the bible has survived yrs of no defence, constant attacks by muslims, destruction by muslim nations and YET remains the best selling book of all time. That shld strike you as incredible unless of course you are a muslim blind to reason.

Lakpenne:

And your point being? ITs a prophecy of things to come. Guess who willbe the leader of the Muslims during this time, That's right, you guessed it, Jesus. The same Jesus that your dominionist compatriots in America say will return to kill the Jews. LOL. You kill me dude. You kill me.

1. Prophecy indeed. Its no prophecy, its simply an evil plan to destroy the jews because with them around, islam will forever remain exposed as a religion of the anti-christ.

2. Show me JUST ONE verse in the quran that talks about Jesus coming for the muslims!

Lakpenne:

- its not mass scale, sure. Bush is hardly criticized in the type of crticiusm that matters. We cn begin with real criticism by impeaching him for lying about Iraq or just simply coming out and saying "Bush you are a liar" That's criticism, not this bullshit that pundits through out as useless talk.

If you lived in the US you wont be saying such rubbish.

Lakpenne:

Here's a bet, If I can show You Muslims more than likely did not do 911, u will stop posting on nairaland. Challenge?

go and watch Osama Bn Laden's latest audio tape were he himself confessed to being the brains behind 9-11.

"The truth, as I said before, is that the Manhattan events were in retaliation for the killing of our kinfolk in Palestine and Lebanon by the US-Israeli alliance and that I am responsible for them," Bin Laden

From an audio tape released 29th Nov 2007 by Osama Bn Laden.

Of course you are free to post more rubbish from ur conspiracy sites.

How can 3 godheads, be 1 God? When each one of them is complete and unique
to itself? If one of these godheads, were to suffer, the other tto will have to suffer
with Him. Unless they are independently of each other's conditions, then when Jesus
the son head died, the other two, the holy spirit head and the father head must have
died, as well.

If they were independent, as to being immuned from one another's conditions, eg the
demise of the son head God, then, what you have remaining will be 2 completely capable
Gods or Godheads. In every book it is called POLYTHEISM.

The African animist are at least sincere in their own declaration of many gods or many
intercessors/middle deity to One Glorious God. This remind of the condition of how God
called His friend, the father of Monotheism, Ibrahiim (as), to worship Him;

Ibrahiim, destroyed the little/smaller/lesser gods of his people, (son god, holy ghost god),
and put the instrument of destruction squarely on the shoulder of the giant/big/largest god.

Today, and indeed after the ascention of my master Isa bin Mariam, Al Massiah fi Bani Israil,
(Aleyhi salaam, ya sayedina Isa), they foolishly put him on the same level with his Lord. The One
God who spoke him, as a 'word,' in commandment to becoming a living soul.

Allah says in His book, Surah 43, verses 57 through 61, below tell us the position of Jesus with Allah. Even as The Most irresistable spoke so highly of Jesus, including his returning being one of the big signs of the last days, we must never forget and pay special attention, that Allah continues to USE THE
MAJESTIC PLURAL, eg, 'We, Us,' for Himself! Jesus is not part of this plural and there is no Angel as part of it, too.

So to those who are in delutional belief that we, us, when is in the speech of God is including Jesus or any other, the truth is that from the Qur'an Allah has indicated the opposite. That is the final and that is the truth.

                                            Fir`awn's Address to His People and how Allah punished Him

Allah tells us how Fir`awn stubbornly persisted in his rebellion and disbelief. He assembled his people and addressed them in a vainglorious fashion, boasting of his dominion over Egypt.
(Is not mine the dominion of Egypt, and these rivers flowing underneath me) Qatadah said, "They had gardens and rivers of flowing water.''
(See you not then) means, `do you not see my position of might and power' -- implying that Musa and his followers were poor and weak. This is like the Ayah:

(Then he gathered (his people) and cried aloud, saying: "I am your lord, most high.'' So Allah seized him with punishment for his last and first transgression.) (79:23-25)

(Am I not better than this one who is despicable) As-Suddi said, "He was saying, `indeed I am better than this one, who is despicable'.'' Some of the grammarians of Basrah said that Fir`awn -- may the curse of Allah be upon him -- was saying that he was better than Musa, peace be upon him. But this is an obvious lie, may continued curses be upon him until the Day of Resurrection. By describing Musa as despicable he meant -- as Sufyan said -- insignificant. Qatadah and As-Suddi said, "He meant, weak.'' Ibn Jarir said, "He meant, he had no power, authority or wealth.''

(and can scarcely express himself clearly) means, he cannot speak clearly, he stammers and cannot speak well. Fir`awn's description of Musa as "despicable'' is a lie; rather it is he who was despicable and insignificant, lacking in physical, moral and religious terms, and it is Musa who was noble, truthful, righteous and upright.

(and can scarcely express himself clearly). This was also a lie. Although something happened to Musa's tongue when he was a child, when it was burnt by a coal. He asked Allah to loosen the knot from his tongue (i.e., to correct his speech defect) so that they could understand what he said, and Allah had answered his prayer and said:

(You are granted your request, O Musa) (20:36). It may be the case that some problem remained which he had not asked to be relieved of, as Al-Hasan Al-Basri suggested, and that he had asked only to be relieved of that which stood in the way of his conveying the Message. A person cannot be blamed for physical matters over which he has no control. Even though Fir`awn had the intelligence to understand that, he wanted to confuse and mislead his people, who were ignorant and stupid. So he said:

(Why then are not golden bracelets bestowed on him, ) meaning, adornments which are placed on the arms. This was the view of Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, Qatadah and others.

(or angels sent along with him) meaning, to serve him and to testify that he is telling the truth. He looked only at outward appearances and did not understand the true inner matters that are clearer than what he focused on, if only he had understood that. Allah says:
(Thus he fooled his people, and they obeyed him.) meaning, he confused them and invited them to misguidance, and they responded to him.

(Verily, they were ever a people who were rebellious.) Then Allah says:
(So when they angered Us, We punished them, and drowned them all.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said it means: "When they angered Us means, they provoked Our wrath.'' Ad-Dahhak said, it means "They made Us angry.'' This was also the view of Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi, Qatadah, As-Suddi and other scholars of Tafsir. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Uqbah bin `Amir, may Allah be pleased with him, said that the Messenger of Allah said:

(When you see that Allah gives a person what he wants even though he is persisting in sin, that means that Allah is enticing him into destruction.) Then he recited:
(So when they angered Us, We punished them, and drowned them all.) It was reported that Tariq bin Shihab said, "I was with `Abdullah, may Allah be pleased with him, and the issue of sudden death was mentioned. He said, `It is a relief for the believer and a source of regret for the disbeliever.' Then he recited the Ayah:

(So when they angered Us, We punished them, and drowned them all). '' `Umar bin `Abdul-`Aziz, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "I found that punishment comes with negligence, meaning the Ayah:
(So when they angered Us, We punished them, and drowned them all).''
(And We made them a precedent, and an example to later generations.) Abu Mijlaz said, "Precedent for others who do the same as they did.'' He and Mujahid said, "An example, i.e., a lesson to those who come after them.'' Allah is the One Who guides to the straight path, and unto Him is the final return.

(57. And when the son of Maryam is quoted as an example, behold, your people cry aloud thereat.) (58. And say: "Are our gods better or is he'' They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people.) (59. He was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) (60. And if it were Our will, We would have made angels to replace you on the earth.) (61. And he shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the straight path.) (62. And let not Shaytan hinder you. Verily, he (Shaytan) to you is a plain enemy.) (63. And when `Isa came with clear proofs, he said: "I have come to you with Al-Hikmah, and in order to make clear to you some of that in which you differ. Therefore have Taqwa of Allah and obey me.'') (64. "Verily, Allah! He is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is the straight path.'') (65. But the sects from among themselves differed. So woe to those who do wrong from the torment of a painful Day!)










unique and separate to carry out their own affairs,

olabowale:

How can 3 godheads, be 1 God? When each one of them is complete and unique
to itself? If one of these godheads, were to suffer, the other tto will have to suffer
with Him. Unless they are independently of each other's conditions, then when Jesus
the son head died, the other two, the holy spirit head and the father head must have
died, as well.

to be frank, you shld devote more time to studying about your "one god" and bother less about our "3 Godheads" . . . things of the Spirit cannot be understood by those who walk in the dark.

Those who are guided aright and attend to their own affairs with wisdom and intelligence
will clearly know God is different from His slave Messenger Prophets. Be it Moses, who was
the Instrument of God, that God spoke with, one on One more than once. Musa turned a stick
which is lifeless to a snake, at three different occasions; first at the burning bush, second at his first
meeting with Pharaoh and third at the competition against the majicians of Egypt. At this third
occasion, the snake gubbled up, in hurried consumptions, the snakes of the magicians.

Yet, his miracle was not finished with the Egyptians, until they drowned in the sea and the Children
of Israel under Musa were saved. He did not use anything but this dead stick in his hand. Finally,
Moses was able just by his instruction, a dead man awoke, when part of a slaughtered cow merely
touched him, to reveal his killer. All of these is in the Chapter 2 of the Qur'an.

Be it Jesus son of Mary, who was born without the aid of a male, even so was Adam and greatter is the
process that brought forth his mate, Hawa, a woman, having diffrerent physiological internal construction.
Jesus shaped a clay and became bird, raised up to life a dead person, and others miracles.

I believe each of these miracles, simply because Qur'an mentions them. But in all of these cases, we can see
that todays technology has allowed cloning, the lamb known as Dolly is a good example. We already had
a test tube baby since the '70s. The scientists are even able to bring about, some identifiable DNA from
the remains of Dinosaur.

Yet, knowledge has not completed. Who know what can happen in the future? What I am saying is this: There
is no amount of miracles that will make any creation equal to the Creator! God says in the Qur'an that He is
your Creator and He is the Creator of all that you creat. You have no power of your own to do anything. If it
was so, when Jesus begged in his prayer at the Garden of Geshemine, he would have just removed the cup
off his own head. If he had power of his own, when the pain became unbearable, he would have just removed
himself, instaed of crying out 'My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?'

Below. we realise that God the Almighty is very clear and separate from Jesus, yet He continues to use the Majestic plural for Himself, without including anybody, be it His Angels, His noble Prophets, or any from His creation.


(59. He was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) (60. And if it were Our will, We would have made angels to replace you on the earth.) (61. And he shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the straight path.) (62. And let not Shaytan hinder you. Verily, he (Shaytan) to you is a plain enemy.) (63. And when `Isa came with clear proofs, he said: "I have come to you with Al-Hikmah, and in order to make clear to you some of that in which you differ. Therefore have Taqwa of Allah and obey me.'') (64. "Verily, Allah! He is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is the straight path.'') (65. But the sects from among themselves differed. So woe to those who do wrong from the torment of a painful Day!)

@davidylan:

I knew this beforee but I was come to the conclusion that you are indeed a dishonest human being, despite your attacks on Muslims s being dishonest:

U said: "Sorry, Jews were not a part of the Spanish conquest by muslims!" This is the most absurd thing U have said to date and shows your complete dishonesty and ignorance. This is not even a historical dispute. not that wiki is the end all and be all but I assume the posting on wiki that says:

"Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, also known as the Golden Age of Arab (or Moorish) Rule in Iberia, refers to a period of history during the Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula (the Roman and Visigothic Hispania) in which Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed."

There is no debate that it was Golden for Jews. the only debate is whether it is the interfaith Utopia some, Jews included, make it out to be. But there is little dispute that their life under the Muslim rule was better than under the European. I don't like to resort to cursing but on this issue, and the one below, you are a lying dishonest ______.

U said: "You claimed that Jesus was born via immaculate conception JUST like mohammed was born. Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? That is a straight forward question, stop playing musical chairs here."

uum, wrong guy dude. I never said the Prophet was conceived JUST like Jesus, that would be dishonest - something u know too well. What I did say, which u refuse to address is that Adam's birth is more miraculous and more deserving of being called God if the test is going to be how you came into the world.

Rather than answer directly, you claim I am in darkness by not accepting the the trinity nonesense. I gave you four points on logic and even from the Bible as to why the trinity is false and you say nothing except what you claim to have found in the Bible. Please

I won't bother entertaining the rest of your idiocy for fear of more dishonest garbbling

As for the Bin Laden tape, you mean the one that was released six years after the incident, which they claim Bin Laden left in Kabul while fleeing, which shows a fat man supposedly Bin Laden eating with his left hand unlike proper Muslim manner, with what appears to be a gold ring and contradicts what Bin Laden himself said right after 911. U mean that fake and doctored tape. Oh yes. That tape would never make it into evdence at trial cause its a fraud and the Bible would also never make it into evidence at trial becuase its inauthentic and a fraud perpetrated by Paul and others.

Tell me why Bin Laden was indicted and found guilty of the Tanzanian bombings yet, the world world is cock sure he did 911 and we even have a supposed confession yet, he has not been indicted in abstentia and convicted as he was for the Tanzania bombings.

Listed dude, don't start talking abot stuff you have no clue about. U have much to learn.

God is uncreated, Jesus is created - end of story.

Lakpenne . . . continue stumbling from error to error.

It is no surprise that the Christians will follow conjecture in the footstep of their patrons,
the Jews, who had adulterated their book, the Tawrah. In this wise, it is very easy for
the Christians to accept the notion that somebody will assume their burden, before God.
However it is the height of irresponsibility and failure to face reality, because there is no
bearer of burden, that will bear the burden of another. Everyone, without any exception,
will be judges according to the mercy of God, based on the meritious belief and good deeds
done by the individual.

Allah Mentions `Isa and Praises the Injil

Allah said,
(and We sent, ) meaning, We sent
(in their footsteps) meaning the Prophets of the Children of Israel,
(`Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrah that had come before him,) meaning, he believed in it and ruled by it.
(and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light) a guidance that directs to the truth and a light that removes the doubts and solves dispute
(and confirmation of the Tawrah that had come before it,) meaning, he adhered to the Tawrah, except for the few instances that clarified the truth where the Children of Israel differed. Allah states in another Ayah that `Isa said to the Children of Israel,


(. , and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you.) So the scholars say that the Injil abrogated some of the rulings of the Tawrah. Allah's statement,
(a guidance and an admonition for those who have Taqwa.) means, We made the Injil guidance and an admonition that prohibits committing sins and errors, for those who have Taqwa of Allah and fear His warning and torment. Allah said next,
(Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat,


(Say "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing (guidance) until you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.'') and,
(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written with them in the Tawrah, ) until,
(, successful.) Here, Allah said,
(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the rebellious.) meaning, the rebellious and disobedient of Allah who prefer falsehood and abandon truth. We mentioned before that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians, and this is evident from the context of the Ayah.


(48. And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhayminan over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.) (49. And so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most men are rebellious. (50. Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) ignorance And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith.)

How can anyone, in complete honest discuss the Word of God, by just writing a
few lines? Except a one who is lacking in the light of guidance. So the arrogant
people are excited by Allah to wallow in their arrogance, being covered by layers
of darkness. Their hearts, eyes and ears are all laid wasted, dead and having no
spiritual essence!

Praising the Qur'an; the Command to Refer to the Qur'an for Judgment

Allah mentioned the Tawrah that He sent down to His Prophet Musa, the one whom He spoke directly to, praising it, commanding that it should be implemented, before it was abrogated. Allah then mentioned the Injil, praised it and commanded its people to adhere to it and follow it, as we stated. He next mentioned the Glorious Qur'an that He sent down to His honorable servant and Messenger. Allah said,


(And We have sent down to you the Book in truth, ) meaning, with the truth that, no doubt, is coming from Allah
(confirming the Scripture that came before it) meaning, the Divinely Revealed Books that praised the Qur'an and mentioned that it would be sent down from Allah to His servant and Messenger Muhammad . The Qur'an was revealed as was foretold in the previous Scriptures. This fact increased faith in the previous Scriptures for the sincere who have knowledge of these Scriptures, those who adhered to Allah's commands and Laws and believed in His Messengers. Allah said,


(Say: "Believe in it or do not believe (in it). Verily, those who were given knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration.'' And they say: "Glory be to our Lord! Truly, the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled.'') meaning that they say, the promise of our Lord, concerning the coming of Muhammad by the words of His previous Messengers, will certainly be fulfilled. Allah's statement,

(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an and swore by His Most Honorable Self,


(Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).) Allah said,
(So judge between them by what Allah has revealed.) The Ayah commands: O Muhammad! Rule between the people, Arabs and non-Arabs, lettered and unlettered, by what Allah has revealed to you in this Glorious Book and what it approves of for you from the Law of the previous Prophets, as Ibn Jarir said. Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet had the choice to judge between them or to turn away from them and refer them to their own Law. Then this Ayah was revealed,


(So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires. , ) and he was commanded to judge between them by our Book.''. Allah's statement
(and follow not their vain desires, ) This means the ideas they promote, because of which they turned away from what Allah revealed to His Messengers. This is why Allah said,
(And follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you.) The Ayah commands: Do not diverge from the truth that Allah has ordained for you, to the vain desires of these miserable, ignorant people. Allah's statement,


(To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way.)
(To each among you, We have prescribed a law) Shir`at meaning, a clear path, as Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Ibn `Abbas.
(If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation.) This is a general proclamation to all nations informing them of Allah's mighty ability. If Allah wills, He would make all mankind follow one religion and one Law, that would never be abrogated. Allah decided that every Prophet would have his own distinct law that is later abrogated partially or totally with the law of a latter Prophet. Later on, all previous laws were abrogated by the Law that Allah sent with Muhammad , His servant and Messenger, whom Allah sent to the people of earth as the Final Prophet. Allah said,


(If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you.) This Ayah means, Allah has instituted different laws to test His servants' obedience to what He legislates for them, thus, He rewards or punishes them according to their actions and what they intend. `Abdullah bin Kathir said that the Ayah,
(In what He has given you.) means, of the Book. Next, Allah encouraged rushing to perform good deeds,
(so strive as in a race in good deeds.) which are obedience to Allah, following His Law that abrogated the laws that came before it, and believing in His Book, the Qur'an, which is the Final Book that He revealed. Allah said next,


(The return of you (all) is to Allah Therefore, O people, your return and final destination is to Allah on the Day of Resurrection,
(then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.) Allah will inform you about the truth in which you used to differ and will reward the sincere, as compensation for their sincerity, and will punish the disbelieving, rebellious people who rejected the truth and deviated from it to other paths, without proof or evidence to justify their actions. Rather, they have rejected the clear evidences, unequivocal proofs and established signs. Ad-Dahhak said that,
(So strive as in a race in good deeds.)is directed at the Ummah of Muhammad , but the first view is more apparent. Allah's statement,
(And so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires,) emphasizes this command and forbids ignoring it. Allah said next,

(but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you. ) meaning; beware of the Jews, your enemies, lest they distort the truth for you in what they convey to you. Therefore, do not be deceived by them, for they are liars, treacherous and disbelievers.
(And if they turn away,) from the judgement that you pass in their disputes, and they defy Allah's Law,
(then know that Allah's will is to punish them for some sins of theirs.) meaning, know that this will occur according to the decree of Allah, and because out of His wisdom they have deviated from the truth, and because of their previous sins.
(And truly, most men are rebellious.) Therefore, the majority of humans are disobedient to their Lord, defiant of the truth and deviate away from it. Allah said in other Ayat,


(And most people will not believe even if you desire it eagerly,) and,
(And if you obey most of those on the earth they will mislead you far away from Allah's path.) Muhammad bin Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Ka`b bin Asad, Ibn Saluba, `Abdullah bin Surya and Shas bin Qays said to each other, `Let us go to Muhammad to try and misguide him from his religion.' So they went to the Prophet and said, `O Muhammad! You know that we are the scholars, noblemen and chiefs of the Jews. If we follow you, the Jews will follow suit and will not contradict us. But, there is enmity between us and some of our people, so we will refer to you for judgement in this matter, and you should rule in our favor against them and we will believe in you.' The Messenger of Allah refused the offer and Allah sent down these Ayat about them,


(And so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you.) until,
(for a people who have firm faith.)'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this Hadith. Allah continues,
(Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) ignorance And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith) Allah criticizes those who ignore Allah's commandments, which include every type of righteous good thing and prohibit every type of evil, but they refer instead to opinions, desires and customs that people themselves invented, all of which have no basis in Allah's religion. During the time of Jahiliyyah, the people used to abide by the misguidance and ignorance that they invented by sheer opinion and lusts. The Tatar (Mongols) abided by the law that they inherited from their king Genghis Khan who wrote Al-Yasiq, for them. This book contains some rulings that were derived from various religions, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Many of these rulings were derived from his own opinion and desires. Later on, these rulings became the followed law among his children, preferring them to the Law of the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger . Therefore, whoever does this, he is a disbeliever who deserves to be fought against, until he reverts to Allah's and His Messenger's decisions, so that no law, minor or major, is referred to except by His Law. Allah said,


(Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) ignorance) meaning, they desire and want this and ignore Allah's judgement

(And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith) Who is more just in decision than Allah for those who comprehend Allah's Law, believe in Him, who are certain that Allah is the best among those who give decisions and that He is more merciful with His creation than the mother with her own child Allah has perfect knowledge of everything, is able to do all things, and He is just in all matters. Al-Hafiz Abu Al-Qasim At-Tabarani recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(The most hated person to Allah is the Muslim who seeks the ways of the days of ignorance and he who seeks to shed the blood of a person without justification.) Al-Bukhari recorded Abu Al-Yaman narrating a similar Hadith, with some addition.
(51. O you who believe! Do not take friends from the Jews and the Christians, as they are but friends of each other. And if any among you befriends them, then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the wrongdoers.) (52. And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease, they hurry to their friendship, saying: "We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us. '' Perhaps Allah may bring a victory or a decision according to His will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves.) (53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you'' All that they did has been in vain, and they have become the loser

The Anger of Allah on the disbelievers: There is no ambiquity to the chief groups, which
are described below: Allah shows His mercy on the people, as He describes their nature
and the punishment that they will suffer if they die without changing from such evil
nature. Yet only a few will listen and ponder, in reflection of their evil deeds and change
from it. No wonder it will be only fitting that those who deserve to be in Hell fire will be
left there forever. For they have been warned, but refused to heed the warning.

The People of the Scriptures Deserve the Worst Torment on the Day of Resurrection

Allah said next,
(Say: "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah" The Ayah commands the Prophet to say: Shall I inform you about a worse people with Allah on the Day of Resurrection than what you think of us They are you, with these characteristics,

(those who incurred the curse of Allah) were expelled from His mercy
(and who incurred His wrath) and anger, after which He will never be pleased with them,
(those of whom He transformed into monkeys and swine,) as we mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah (2) and as we will mention in Surat Al-A`raf (7). Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, "Allah's Messenger was asked if the current monkeys and swine were those whom Allah transformed. He said
(Allah never destroyed a people by transforming them and making offspring or descendants for them. The monkeys and swine existed before that.)'' This was also recorded by Muslim. Allah said,

(Those who worshipped Taghut, ) and served them, becoming their servants. The meaning of this Ayah is: you, O People of the Scriptures, who mock our religion, which consists of Allah's Tawhid, and singling Him out in worship without others, how can you mock us while these are your characteristics This is why Allah said,

(such are worse in rank, ) than what you -- People of the Scriptures -- think of us Muslims,
(and far more astray from the straight path.) `More' in the Ayah does not mean that the other party is `less' astray, but it means that the People of the Scriptures are far astray. In another Ayah, Allah said,
(The dwellers of Paradise will, on that Day, have the best abode, and have the fairest of places for repose.)

There is no Salvation Except through Faith in the Qur'an

Allah says: O Muhammad, say,

(O People of the Scripture! You have nothing, ) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law. Before, we explained Allah's statement,

(Verily, the revelation that has come to you from your Lord makes many of them increase in rebellion and disbelief.)
(So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve), Do not be sad or taken aback by their disbelief. Allah said next,
(Surely, those who believe) referring to Muslims,
(those who are the Jews) who were entrusted with the Tawrah

(and the Sabians. , ) a sect from the Christians and Magians who did not follow any particular religion, as Mujahid stated. As for the Christians, they are known and were entrusted with the Injil. The meaning here is that if each of these groups believed in Allah and the Hereafter, which is the Day of Judgement and Reckoning, and performed good actions, which to be so, must conform to Muhammad's Law, after Muhammad was sent to all mankind and the Jinns. If any of these groups held these beliefs, then they shall have no fear of what will come or sadness regarding what they lost, nor will grief ever affect them. We discussed a similar Ayah before in Surat Al-Baqarah [2:62].

(70. Verily, We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent Messengers to them. Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not, a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed.) (71. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment), so they became blind and deaf; after that Allah turned to them (with forgiveness); yet again many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is the All-Seer of what they do.) Allah reminds that He took the covenant and pledges from the Children of Israel to hear and obey Him and His Messenger. They broke these pledges and covenants and followed their lusts and desires instead of the law, and whichever part of the law they agreed with, they took it. Otherwise, they abandoned it, if it did not conform to their desires. This is why Allah said,

(Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not - a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment) so they became blind and deaf.) thinking that they would suffer no repercussions for of the evil that they committed. Consequently, they were blinded from the truth and became deaf, incapable of hearing the truth. For these reasons they were unable to be guided by it. Allah forgave that, then,

(yet they became blind and deaf) again,
(many of them, and Allah is the All-Seer of what they do.) He has perfect knowledge of what they do and whomever among them deserves the guidance and whomever deserves misguidance.

(72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam.'' But the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'' Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the wrongdoers there are no helpers.) (73. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.'' And there is no god but One God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.) (74. Will they not repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) (75. The Messiah [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both used to eat food. Look how We make the Ayat clear to them; yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).)

too much noise from these idol worshippers. Allah sent this, allah sent that . . . where is the tawrah and injil allah claimed to have sent?

olabowale:

There is no Salvation Except through Faith in the Qur'an

Allah says: O Muhammad, say,

(O People of the Scripture! You have nothing, ) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law. Before, we explained Allah's statement,

Too much confused babbling here . . . and why are the muslims not required to adhere and implement the tawrah and injil?

Where is this tawrah and injil that we may adhere and implement? Can we adhere to nothing?

I am a Prophet of Allah but I do not know what will be my end." [Sahih Bukhari]

even poor Mo did not know his end,why should anyone worship his allah?

But Christ says this.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

who would you rather follow,a lost man or one that is certain

olabowale:

There is no Salvation Except through Faith in the Qur'an

na lie.
heed Mohammeds cry my dear

What does the muslim understand by "have faith in the quran"? Blind belief?

olabowale:

How can anyone, in complete honest discuss the Word of God, by just writing a
few lines? Except a one who is lacking in the light of guidance. So the arrogant
people are excited by Allah to wallow in their arrogance, being covered by layers
of darkness. Their hearts, eyes and ears are all laid wasted, dead and having no
spiritual essence!

And how can anyone, in complete honesty, PRETEND to discuss the "word of god" by merely copying and pasting volumes of nebulous words from spurious websites and dress it up as his own? Except a one who is lacking in intelligence.

@Focused: Thank you for your confidence in me. I am learning, but gradually getting better in knowing Who imy Creator is and what should be my responsibility to Him.

I have a feeling you are a moderate muslim, but maybe we could learn from each other. (I do not have any tangible scholarship in Islam, but i will speak to you from my heart. I ask that God guides my speech and let it be measured for success, only for His cause. Amiin)

1) The people who carried out Suicide bombing against innocent civilians and the the people who are involved in the 911 attacks do justify their attack from the quran, especially from surah 9:5 and surah 9:29, of which if you read it very well, directly translates to what they are doing

My response: According to the reports that we have of the 911 hijackers, at least one of them spent his last night on earth in the bar, where he drank until he was drunk. He danced the night away, even on the bar table/stool, with all the trimmings of what they do in the bar, girls, smoking, etc. If this is true, is this the way a man who believed in God will like to end his life, as he himself is sure about what he was going to do, the following morning? Is it a good Muslim quality to parade the bar at all, and get drunk? Is it a good Muslim quality to dance away and perform or at least attempt fornication? How can a habitual drinker and the other ills listed about this particular man be a religious man? Hardly and very unlikely!

About Suratul Tauba, chapter 9 and its verses listed above, you should know that it was revealed for its appropriateness, at the time it was revealed. It was not a band of Muslim who engaged in the many battles/wars that these verses were revealed upon. The Muslims fought, all of them, together as one body. Everyone that was able body was ready and prepared to fight. There was no opposition within the Muslims. They fought under the Banner of One God, indivisible God. Under One prophet and Messenger of God, Muhammad (as).

However, the bands or fragments which claimed or are claimed to be fighting for Islam today are doing it for their own personal end, individually or as a group. There is no complete body of Muslim scholars that will say these people are fighting for Islam. If Muslims were to fight as a body, it will be for just cause; Only raising the flag of Laa ilaha ilallah, Muhammadanr Rasulullah Salaalahu aleyhi salaam. The only reason this can happen, and be justify is if Muslims all over the world are being prevented from going to Mosque to pray, even in the so called Muslim lands. The Muslim land is wrongly labelled.

This is not to say that the verses could not be potentially applicable, sometimes in the history of man. I am saying that that is not the case now. The Muslims need to look into their own hearts first. Help themselves into being good to themselves and their neighbors and the society at large, while still believing God as One. Islam calls for well rounded belief/faith.

If the Muslim were to fight as a unit, having the singular goal without the stupidity that you see within Islam, today, there will be catastrophe in the lands. May God Almighty in His Infinite Mercy not let us have it , now or in the future of man.

@Olabowale

Again this is the excuse that most muslim clerics give, for all to discover that they preach and fund terrorism secretly.

2) Why are muslims so intolerant ? Why will they want to kill anyone who criticises Muhammad ? God created human being to have choice, to do good or evil.
human being do criticises God, so if they can criticise God, then why can't they speak their mind about what they think of mohammed and his followers ?


My response:I am just an ordinary Muslim. I have no special quality to see the heart of my fellow man. However I can make a give time assessment of a person, based on what is said and or done at that time. The future belongs to God alone. It is the foolishness of a man that will make him criticise his Creator. Now am not saying that I am special and not potentially within the group of people that criticise. However, it very terrible that we carry this foolish and perilous behaviour to the extend to affect other people. Especially when you leave your saints and leaders of your religion as secrete Cows, Unreachable, but find it pleasurable to deride other peoples religious leadership. Notice that there is no Christian, unless just Christian by name only, or assumed to be Christian, that has criticised Paul, and never Jesus. Why Muhammad? I ask you, my friend?

Have you ever seen any Muslim who have ever criticised Jesus son of Mary? It will never happen. It will the same as if he had criticised Muhammad who succeeded Jesus son of Mary, if it an Muslim ever does. He can forget his Islam, unless he reenter Islam by seeking forgiveness from God, directly.

@Olabowale

Muslims are the greatest critics of christianity. They criticise Jesus openly and they say all sorts of things, but no body have ever charged them, or kill them for what they have said. In UK, which is a christian country, they have an opportunity which they don't even have in their country to practise their religion and say all sorts of things, and even segregate themselves, from other people because they think they are pure and others are infidels. Some of them (mostly of Pakistani extraction) are even advocating that they will turn UK into an Islamic country.

3) Why do the Islamic religion promotes hatred and intolerance against Christians and the jews ?

My response: My mother was a Christian until just few years ago. Thank God. But in all of her years as a Christian, I never expressed any hatred towards her. Okay, so she is my mother. Alright, the remnants of Christianity in my family, both father and mother sides enjoy aboundant of love with me. In business, some of my closest confidants are Jews and or Christians. And by the way, I do not need them as much as they need me. Thank God. Some of them almost became biting bulldogs against me immediately after 911. But thank God, in the end, I have been made Victorious over them. (Even the Jews call others Gentiles and the Christians called others the Unyoked)

@Olabowale

If this atrocity happened in saudi Arabia or a country where Islamic religion is their state religion or where they have majority muslims what do you think will happen ? Don't you think they will carry out ethnic cleansing of all the minority christians. In saudi Arabia, they have lots of Saudi Arabian militants, the Saudi authorities know about it , but turn a blind eye. If they carry out their traditional atrocity, they will say they are criminals, while they are the one sponsoring the whole thing.

4) Why is that a christian cannot bring bible into Saudi Arabia ? Afterall Christianity have being existing in Saudi Arabia, before the 7th century Islamic religion.

My response: I am not a Saudi, so I can not comment on the Saudi policy for the country as a whole. However, God commanded that no non Muslim should be allowed in Makka. Muhammad bin Abdallah (as), extended this commandment, to cover Madina as well. I am very satisfy with the two standing instructions. For illustration purpose only, you have the right to tell me how to qualify myself to enter your house. So does God and His Messenger.

Do I agree with the Saudi extending this to cover the whole Saudi Arabia? I really do not have any opinion. However, there are many things that they do that I do not agree with. Since they are the custodian of the two Mosques, one would expect them to be just, where justice is needed and be merciful, when mercy is good, espectially when it comes to the matters of the poor, the weak and the the unprivileged.

@Olabowale

If muslims can have thousands of mosques in Christian European countries, why can't christian build churches in Saudi Arabia ?

5) Why are Nigerians Muslims in particular showing solidarity to Arab Muslims. These were the same people who enslave black people. These were the same people who don't like blacks. You will not realise this racism, not until you work with Arabs. Would they get the same sympathy from Arab Muslims if something goes wrong with Nigerian Muslims.

My response: You are also to include the blind solidarity of the Nigerians with the Christian Europe, who did exactly the same as you have described the Arabs above. A resent example is what happened in Rwanda, when the priest/pastor abandoned the very African blacks who packed his luggaged. He behaved that African was his very worst enemy, the moment, the European Military came to take him out of dodge! You see, humans are humans. Some are good, but majority are very evil. The Nigerian Christians do not care for justice. They have been reeling in with the 3 godhead in one madness. This is why some of them have no shame in their support for Israel. The very people who claimed themselves to be superior over all people. Claiming over and over againthat they are the chosen people with end. Even as they do filthy things, disobeying God and killing His messengers and prophets. How long do you think they should have this 'special status,' if God is just? They can have it for so long until the appointed time. The appointed time came in the person of Jesus son of Mary. He performed tremendous miracles that were unprecedented in its time. Yet they did not follow him.

Then came the last of the Prophets and Messengers, Muhammad ibn Abdallah! All human being is an ambassador to himself, first then to his family and to the larger body of mankind, in calling to the worship of God the Almighty Allah, alone without partnership.

Finally, I do not look at the Arabs for my Islam. First, not all Arabs are Muslims. And not all Muslims are Arabs. Islam entered Ethiopia before it entered Madina. Egyptians and others can claim that their not Africans, yet they are located in Africa. Indeed it is the same descendants of the subsahara Africans that are the primary source of support that they have after 911. Muslims are one body that is the issue on this. Yet we have bad family members within it, but we do not turn them out to the buggie man to scare. You show good behaviour, and they may just take something good from you, in the long run.

The mindset of the North Africans, who blindly claimed that they are not Africans, may just be in the same light as the One who claimed godship for a mere mortal. Have you thought about it, You do do not have to have an idol in front of you, before you are an idol worshipper.

@Olabowale

[b]A slave is a slave when slavery have not been removed from his mind. It is a pity that African leaders are feeding their own people to lions. correct me if I am wrong, all africans unborn are all owning due to loans which our own leaders are collecting from the white people and from Arab people through Islamic banks or from OIC. That is the reasosn why Babangida went and enrolled Nigeria in OIC because of interest free loans knowing fully well, that Nigeria is not an Islamic country

I don't trust anybody, which includes white people, because betrayal runs in their blood. Even then, we should blame our fore fathers, because they are the one who sold us to the white people and Arabs. We were also enslaving ourselves before the Arabs and White people came into the continent.

Not all the white people are Christians. Some of them are atheist.

Nigerians Christians do care for justice.

The problem in the middle East is about land allocation when the European were ruling palestine and at the same time, I blame their leaders as well. If the leaders of middle east countries want peace they shall have it, but most of them don't want peace.

When you talk about justice, what do you mean ? Do you mean for palestine ? Palestine is a land of the bible. Have you forgotten that christianity evolve from the middle eastern countries ? The early churches.

I have read the middle east problem myself.

I will explain what the trinity is all about :

God's kingdom is made of God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit. we call it blessed trinity. they are not three persons neither are they three gods.

We have the angels. Lucifer is the head of the angels before he and other angels who were subservant to him were chased away from heaven because of their rebellion. Lucifer is the devil or satan we are all talking about.

Below lucifer is Arch Angel Gabriel and Arch Angel Michael and other angels.

I know Idols exist in various forms, we are not worshipping idols. Idols could exist in form of money, pride, all sorts of things.

The greatest problem in the world today are religious spirit and seducing spirit.

As for the issue of North Africans, I am not surprise. You are absolutely right when you said they never saw themselves as Africans. They don't even think like Africans. These are the follwing reasons :

Most of them think see themselves as Arabs and hence think they are better because they see blacks as slaves. Some even call black dirts.

They are more aligned with the countries in the middle east, than with the rest of African countries. If something goes wrong in the middle east countries, they are quick to go and turn to martyrs than if something goes wrong in any other black African countries. The funny thing is that If the North Africans cannot be in the midst of the Arabs in middle east because they will discriminate against them.

All of them have been brought up to have prejudice against blacks by their parents. They don't see anything good in a black person and some don't even see you as a human being.

I am not fanatical about religion, all I want is for black people to love themselves irrespective of religious beliefs. It is alarming how many Southern Nigerians where killed in Northern Nigeria by Nigerian muslims because of the cartoon of Mohammed that was displayed in Denmark
[/b]

A man who is without adequate knowledge of Spirituality, ask if Jesus was sent for the Muslims.
But because of his deficient knowledge, he forgot that the first thing that makes a person a
Muslim, is to first spiritually in firm declaration degates all form of ideas and association that is
contrary to the holding that God Almighty is One and deserves all worships and obedience.

Below in Suratul Al Imran, we see that the followers of Jesus son of Mary declared themselves,
while they say to Jesus that he was their Witness to that attestation. I ask anyone with any sense,
if the whole followership is Islamic of Jesus, and Jesus never commanded them to renounce this
declaration, is there any doubt, that Jesus himself was the leadership of that Muslim under him?

Has there ever been any Prophet who preached the spirituality that is different from Total Submission
to the Will of God? Did any prophet, including Jesus ever Preached that God is not Singularly One?

Did anyone ever see and read the 'Gospel,' Jesus preached about the places, which is different from
the story/history of Jesus, being passed up as The Gospels according to,' in the Bibles?

Jesus son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of his Lord. He preached only the Oneness and total submission to God.

(52. Then when `Isa came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allah's cause'' Al-Hawariyyun said: "We are the helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims.'') (53. "Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger [`Isa]; so write us down among those who bear witness.'') (54. And they (disbelievers) plotted and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of those who plot)

@Focused:

Your Statement: Muslims are the greatest critics of christianity. They criticise Jesus openly and they say all sorts of things, but no body have ever charged them, or kill them for what they have said. In UK, which is a christian country, they have an opportunity which they don't even have in their country to practise their religion and say all sorts of things, and even segregate themselves, from other people because they think they are pure and others are infidels. Some of them (mostly of Pakistani extraction) are even advocating that they will turn UK into an Islamic country.

My response: I almost, agreed, reluctantly with you about the Muslims being the greatest critics of Christians, until
I remember the Jews, who just outrightly, without shyness to it label Christianity as paganism. And wait, they even
haul abuses on Jesus (May Allah abuse those who abuse Jesus, son of Mary, a prophet of God). Further, you shock
me by saying that Muslims critise Jesus. It is far from the real truth! Muslim critise the Christians about the exagerations
of the Christians, as concerning what the true nature of Jesus is. He was a Prophet, with great and wonderful Miracles.
He was the Messiah only to the Children of Israel. Though the may not accept him, even as a prophet. It is the same
thing that Muhammad is, and holding currently even to the end of time, to all mankind. Though majority of mankind will
not accept him. Eg all the Christians, the people who practice Jewish religion, the Atheists, Hindu, Buhddiss, etc.

I practiced Islam as a young boy in Nigeria and there was no time I was debarred from going the Mosque. Europe is
not the birth place of Christianity, so your statement may not hold about their tolerance of Muslims. You said it
yourself that most Europeans are Godless, Atheists. Again, I can not speak for the Saudi Kingdom. I even disagree
with the name Saudi. However I am in agreement about not allowing non Muslims to enter Makka and Madina. That is
Command of God and what His Messenger ruled by.

The irrational behaviour of people, whether it is in the noth of Nigeria, or somewhere else, does not necessarily means
that it is the correct ruling under the Islam. Any group of people can behave, irrationational under a given set of
conditions. If I were in the north, in one of those episodes of chaos that you talk about, maybe I would also lose my
life, regardless of my Islam.

Finally, God can never be three entities or subentities as you are trying to pass your 3 in 1 in your last entry above.
No prophet ever preached it before Jesus. Jesus never preached it, even though we do not have his 'Gospel that he
preached while alive,' to reference what he said. Yet, overwhelmingly, we see from what you call the NT that what
came out of his mouth is that God is One. Further that that God is his Lord/God and to all.

Muhammad came as part of the MASTER plan of GOd, regardless of all the deviations of mankind, prior to his arrival
as a prophet, to provide and lead man according to the will of God, using the final revelation, The Qur'an. It is very
clear and you have the right to scrutinise and critically but objectively investigate it. You have free will as a man.

olabowale:

A man who is without adequate knowledge of Spirituality, ask if Jesus was sent for the Muslims.
But because of his deficient knowledge, he forgot that the first thing that makes a person a
Muslim, is to first spiritually in firm declaration negates all form of ideas and association that is
contrary to the holding that God Almighty is One and deserves all worships and obedience.

Luke 4:8 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The jews knew this more than 2000 yrs ago . . . does that make them muslims too?

@davidylan:

U said:

"Luke 4:8 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The jews knew this more than 2000 years ago . . . does that make them muslims too? "

Excellent, Excellenet, Excellent. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. This is by far the best and most honest and most thought out point you have made to date.

Those who followed the wbove sited verse were indeed Muslims. Jews (or as Allah cause them properly "children of Israel) are merely a people from a line. With respect to their religion, they were commanded: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

It is a beautiful verse and I shall crbeing authentic credit it as being authentic becuase its universal, its supported by the Torah, the Injeel (Bible if u wanna call it that), the Quran and is the message of all the Prophets. Al the Prophets were Muslim because a Muslim is one who submits to the worship of Godd and no one else. Congratulations David, u have seen the light. I am soooooooooooo happy for you Kudos.

Unfortunately, the xtians took that an said "thou shall worship the Lord they God, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which are all three but one." Nonesense. That verse from Luke is clear, he is the onle ONE.

Peace dude. Again, congrats. I'm really really proud of you.

Lakpenne:

@davidylan:

You said:

"Luke 4:8 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The jews knew this more than 2000 years ago . . . does that make them muslims too? "

Excellent, Excellenet, Excellent. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. This is by far the best and most honest and most thought out point you have made to date.

Those who followed the wbove sited verse were indeed Muslims. Jews (or as Allah cause them properly "children of Israel) are merely a people from a line. With respect to their religion, they were commanded: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

No they were and can never be muslims. For the God being refered to in Luke is NOT the same one muslims spend their time crying to.

Lakpenne:

It is a beautiful verse and I shall crbeing authentic credit it as being authentic becuase its universal, its supported by the Torah, the Injeel (Bible if u want to call it that), the Quran and is the message of all the Prophets.

You people are neither here nor there. You cry "authentic" when it suits you and bellow about the bible being corrupted just when it places the quran in its rightful place as no more than the hate manual of a maniac.
Stop dribbling urself and changing the goalposts, the same book you claim is corrupted cannot all of a sudden now have authentic verses in them simply because the quran finds it convenient to use as a crutch.

That verse does not support the quran - 1. the quran already acknowledges the bible is corrupt
2. the God in Luke is NOT your god

Lakpenne:

Al the Prophets were Muslim because a Muslim is one who submits to the worship of Godd and no one else. Congratulations David, u have seen the light. I am soooooooooooo happy for you Kudos.

nonsense. Pls show us JUST ONE verse in the quran where the "prophets" claimed to be muslim.
Pls show us the "revelations" that allah gave these "prophets" IN THE QURAN.

Lakpenne:

Unfortunately, the xtians took that an said "thou shall worship the Lord they God, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which are all three but one." Nonesense. That verse from Luke is clear, he is the onle ONE.

Read from the book of acts upward, NONE of the apostles ever prayed in the name of the Lord, Son and Holy Ghost. They simply used ONE NAME - Jesus Christ = God.

QED

What about the Lord's prayer which Jesus himself taught his apostles and he himself
said as a prayer to his Lord? Any warped response to that? We now see that truth is
too expenses for many to say.

olabowale:

What about the Lord's prayer which Jesus himself taught his apostles and he himself
said as a prayer to his Lord? Any warped response to that? We now see that truth is
too expenses for many to say.

perhaps you forgot to read the portion where the bible clearly specifies that He was teaching the apostles how to pray and not necessarily saying a prayer!
Prayer to His Lord indeed!
Mathew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Again my question that every hypocrite here prefers to ignore . . . why is the muslim so obsessed with proving the christian God wrong? Is any christian putting up threads to question the islamic god? We frankly dont care if you choose to worship stones, pls accord us that right too! nuff said.

David,I need to send you some tasty mouth watering moi moi for your patience with Alhaji.
I know it's not easy.
We have all moved from patience to longsuffering when it comes to him
Whenever I see them copied and pasted texts I take race commot.
Not that I can't read long grammer but I'll want them to make sense at least.
I don tire

@davidylan:
"Again my question that every hypocrite here prefers to ignore . . . why is the muslim so obsessed with proving the christian God wrong? Is any christian putting up threads to question the islamic god? We frankly don't care if you choose to worship stones, please accord us that right too! nuff said. "

Well, u attack Muhammad (saW) and the Quran.  When U stop that we will stop attacking your belief.  We do not attack Jesus, we jsut attack what you say about Jesus, which is contraicted by your own book, not to mention the Quran and Torah - the Luke verse you cited in another thread.

Stop crying and asking to be spared an attack on your false belief.  We worship stones.  LOL.  I know U R but what am I?  LOL.  U worship a man dude, a man who  could not save himself.  We say that man is not God. Rather than address the substance and core of your belief, you dance around, attacking our Quran.

In reality, I do not care if U believe Jesus is God but for so long as U attack our book and call us names, I will hit U where it matters and where it  hurts, and that's showing that you beliefs are false and polytheistic.  WIthout belief, you have nothing.,

Peace

Lakpenne:

@davidylan:
"Again my question that every hypocrite here prefers to ignore . . . why is the muslim so obsessed with proving the christian God wrong? Is any christian putting up threads to question the islamic god? We frankly don't care if you choose to worship stones, please accord us that right too! nuff said. "

Well, u attack Muhammad (saW) and the Quran.  When You stop that we will stop attacking your belief.  We do not attack Jesus, we jsut attack what you say about Jesus, which is contraicted by your own book, not to mention the Quran and Torah - the Luke verse you cited in another thread.

Stop crying and asking to be spared an attack on your false belief.  We worship stones.  LOL.  I know You R but what am I?  LOL.  You worship a man dude, a man who  could not save himself.  We say that man is not God. Rather than address the substance and core of your belief, you dance around, attacking our Quran.

In reality, I do not care if You believe Jesus is God but for so long as You attack our book and call us names, I will hit You where it matters and where it  hurts, and that's showing that you beliefs are false and polytheistic.  WIthout belief, you have nothing.,

Peace

ROFL
Oh is that what you think?
I can assure you no Christian takes you guys seriously at all.
We are only asking you don't kill us and our loved ones
You've said absolutely nothing.
You should be the ones hiding in shame after the exposure of that pedophilic marauding gangster called Mo.

The raving lunatic did not even call Christians polytheistic,he called them smart and asked you to learn from them.
You ought to follow his advice

The ones crying are the ones wielding machetes at the slightest provocation.
Running the streets like imbeciles and calling on a dead allah that can neither hear nor answer.
An allah that has to be helped by his own slaves.
Get a life

@Davidylan:  Again, you attack the Quran as if it makes the issue of your false beliefs go away.

U said:  "nonsense. Please show us JUST ONE verse in the quran where the "prophets" claimed to be muslim."  

then u said: "Stop dribbling yourself and changing the goalposts, the same book you claim is corrupted cannot all of a sudden now have authentic verses in them simply because the quran finds it convenient to use as a crutch."

Knowing fully way that if I gave U the verse U would not accept it, why ask.  If I give U a verse saying such would u become a Muslims?  No.  If yes, let me know and I'll give one. LOL

U said: "No they were and can never be muslims. For the God being refered to in Luke is NOT the same one muslims spend their time crying to."

Really?  Wow.  Then as olabowale asked, which one of the Prophets did not submit to the worship of God alone?  Since all of them did, then they are all Muslims.  A Muslim is one who does exactly what you quoted in that verse from Luke.  seee how that logic works so well.

Again, U R arguments make no sense.  I can perfectly say something is corrupt and accept things from it.  The Constitution is corrupt with respect to certain things, like the part about 3/5th of a man that is a slave.  Yet, there are things in it that are true that I accept, such as free speech.  So, don't try some dumbass argument to save the Bible from citicism.  I have always maintained, as Allah does, that it has been corrupted and what the Prophet tells us to do is to neither confirm nor deny anything in it except where it agrees with the Quran or disagrees.  This is what you call good judgment.

Finally, the ffact still remains:  U R so called Jesus/god begged and cried out to God and was tempted by Satan.  These two things are unbecoming of anything that should be worshipped as God.  All that other stuff about virgin birth, etc is just an inconsequential red herring.  False belief + false belief = false belief.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
It is a beautiful verse and I shall crbeing authentic credit it as being authentic becuase its universal, its supported by the Torah, the Injeel (Bible if u want to call it that), the Quran and is the message of all the Prophets.


You people are neither here nor there. You cry "authentic" when it suits you and bellow about the bible being corrupted just when it places the quran in its rightful place as no more than the hate manual of a maniac.
Stop dribbling yourself and changing the goalposts, the same book you claim is corrupted cannot all of a sudden now have authentic verses in them simply because the quran finds it convenient to use as a crutch.

That verse does not support the quran - 1. the quran already acknowledges the bible is corrupt
2. the God in Luke is NOT your god


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
Al the Prophets were Muslim because a Muslim is one who submits to the worship of Godd and no one else. Congratulations David, u have seen the light. I am soooooooooooo happy for you Kudos.


nonsense. Please show us JUST ONE verse in the quran where the "prophets" claimed to be muslim.
Please show us the "revelations" that allah gave these "prophets" IN THE QURAN.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
Unfortunately, the xtians took that an said "thou shall worship the Lord they God, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which are all three but one." Nonesense. That verse from Luke is clear, he is the onle ONE.


Read from the book of acts upward, NONE of the apostles ever prayed in the name of the Lord, Son and Holy Ghost. They simply used ONE NAME - Jesus Christ = God.

QED

Watch this small clip,just 5 mins of a Muslim woman who describes Islam as the world sees it.
I don't need to tell you how many of your 5 pillared brethren that have been looking for a sixth pillar on her neck.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ

@nwando:

thanks, you have contributed nothing here.

Again, you worship a man. your so called god called out to God and then was tempted by the devil. This is clearly not God.

Thank you, you can go back to sleep now.