Image123:

It's apparently civil only because it is largely ignored by opposing views. i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice. I'm adding this passage to the mix.
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

One of the biggest tragedies of our times is for folks to think up a theory and then go to the bible and make it prove that theory rather than allow the bible to speak for itself.

So, Image123, if that scripture means what you want us to believe, then in answering Anony's question, you will allow the wolf in sheep skin to tear the brother into pieces. In fact like a Pharisee, you will cross the road to the other side, and behave as if you didn't see what was happening.

That is what you will do except the victim is your dear son... possibly your only son. Maybe I should ask what will you do in that case? Then remember that believers are God's dear children.

There is a scripture where Jesus had just lampooned the Pharisees. His disciples approach him and said something like "you are speaking to them like that?" And Jesus is like "And so...?" Not those exact words but I trust you get my drift. There are just too many scriptures that calls Christians to beware of false teachers in the end time. A simple study of Matthew 24 reveals how Jesus emphasised MANY in the texts. Many will be deceived; many false prophets will come; many... do we want to be part of such statistics?

Jude 3 calls us to contend for the truth. Paul commands us to rebuke them soundly. Peter warns of false prophets in the end. John says do not receive them in your homes. In the light of these, do we conclude that all these teachers are saying is allow them to grow, don't touch them, etc.

Certainly not.

That scripture reveals the inadequacy in man to separate good from evil. Its showing us the picture of God's final judgement. It is certainly not teaching complacency, indifference or compromise.

Again allow scripture to speak for itself and then go unto interpret scripture with scripture.

DrummaBoy:

One of the biggest tragedies of our times is for folks to think up a theory and then go to the bible and make it prove that theory rather than allow the bible to speak for itself.

I reckon!!!

@drumb

Jesus is Lord. i hardly said anything, why all this long tori for me only? i only addressed a part of anony's post and added a scripture passage to the mix. i wasn't answering any question or commenting on a bible verse. Draw your conclusion please, let's not unrail the thread, you know.

Image123: Jesus is Lord. i hardly said anything, why all this long tori for me only? i only addressed a part of anony's post and added a scripture passage to the mix. i wasn't answering any question or commenting on a bible verse. Draw your conclusion please, let's not unrail the thread, you know.

Better

Image123: Jesus is Lord. i hardly said anything, why all this long tori for me only? i only addressed a part of anony's post and added a scripture passage to the mix. i wasn't answering any question or commenting on a bible verse. Draw your conclusion please, let's not unrail the thread, you know.

“Contend earnestly for the faith” – Jude 3

"11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible," - Ephesians 5: 11&13

"Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." - Revelation 2:6

I stumbled on this thread opened February 2013 and titled FELLOW CHRISTIANS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US? The OP raised some salient points on the thread. Most of them we have discussed on this thread and some yet to be discussed.

I share this thread here to lend further credence to what we are doing and perhaps to clear the doubts of some who think the thread is a pursuit on personal vendetta.

This post does not mention WOF but its easy to see that WOF is at the root of the OP dilemma:

wordthots:

In recent times this is one question that has really bothered me. Each time I look at the pauline prayers (eph.1:16-21, col.1:9-12, eph.3:14-18), they seem so deep and insightful.

I noticed paul didn't pray against enemies neither did he pray for material blessings (like many of us do today). Rather when he prayed for the churches, he prayed for depth, insight and more knowledge in the things of God

Today christianity is fast becoming a get rich quick scheme, we have set our minds on the mundane things. We have taken our eyes off jesus, setting them on the things we can get (money, health and prosperity).
Nowadays the watchword is "get all you can, can all you get and sit on the can"; whatever happened to contentment and knowing Him more.
We 've put so much emphasis on the temporal, forgetting that there's so much more. The new focus is man and what he can get from God. But there is a definite order in the scheme of things and that's seeking first Gods kingdom before the things. The emphasis and focus is God, not the things.

The worlds standards have become our standards. We claim to preach success and prosperity the bible way yet we use the worlds standards.
To us a successful church has a large congregation, large auditorium, the pastor and congregation drive exotic cars, the account is fat and their many business men in the church. Truth is, anybody can get these results, MOG or ifa priest. By hook or by crook. We say "God must be with you, since you are getting results". How naïve...

Contentment has lost its place...
Nowadays we are taught to give so as to get. The more you give, the more you get, we are slowly becoming clients of a magician God. And so Men now give just to get, afterall everyone wants to be a millionaire.
But the truth is we don't give to get, we give cause we love God and in obedience to His word; getting is a bye product (not the end in itself). Whether we get or not we should still give freely in obedience to his word.

We need to learn contentment. Not every christian will be a millionaire, there's no promise like that in the bible.. Paul stressed this in his writings just as Jesus did; contentment is key. Paul never prayed about the churches needs; as far as needs were concerned he just made plain statements of Gods provision e.g phil.4:19, 2cor.8:9. If we seek first Gods kingdom, our needs will be met and our bills will be paid (not necessarily in millions). Its not a prayer, its a fact.

Years back when preaching I used to present the gospel in a certain way. "If you have jesus you will never know poverty, sickness and you will live long". How ignorant I was...
I recently read in the papers about a certain man hugh hefner (owner of playboy- a mag dat promotes immorality) and was amazed. The guy is rich, healthy and very old, and he is far from being saved (without judging its obvious). There are many pagans, atheists etc just like him.
You don't have to be a christian to be innovative and standout, I mean that's clear in our world today; an example is Japan, which has more idol worshippers than christians yet it has a good economy and it is very innovative.

The richest men in the world are atheists, buddhists and pagans not christians.
My point; there's so much more to christianity...let's stop chasing the things, remember no man can serve 2masters.

We need to set our hearts on the right things. I don't know about you but my new watchword is that of Apostle paul:
[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers) (AMP)

www.nairaland.com/1188495/fellow-christians-what-happening-us

[size=16pt]FINAL THOUGHTS ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]

The idea that a creature can be ‘god’ is what led to Lucifer’s downfall. (Isaiah 14:14) He presented the same idea to Eve in Genesis 3:5. Throughout history this same idea is being repackaged and offered to man – that he can be ‘god’. The results of ‘the fall’ on man do not even seem to be appreciated by the WoF advocates.

WoF teachers teach that Christians are “little gods” based on mishandling of bible passages. That God reproduced himself or decided to make his creature equal to himself is a doctrine taught nowhere in the Bible. God created man, at least on this side of eternity, to be lower even than the angels – Psalm 8:5. What we are in relation to God is clearly shown in Scripture.

The Christian is being transformed; he is not a finished product yet. 1 John 3:2, 3 tells us – “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and [size=13pt]what we will be has not yet been made known[/size]. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure”.

Romans 12: 3 –“ For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him” (AMP).
- “For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you (NIV).

DrummaBoy: I stumbled on this thread opened February 2013 and titled FELLOW CHRISTIANS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US? The OP raised some salient points on the thread. Most of them we have discussed on this thread and some yet to be discussed.

I share this thread here to lend further credence to what we are doing and perhaps to clear the doubts of some who think the thread is a pursuit on personal vendetta.

This post does not mention WOF but its easy to see that WOF is at the root of the OP dilemma:



www.nairaland.com/1188495/fellow-christians-what-happening-us

wordthots is my very good friend, hohohoho. There's a world of difference between that thread and this. Something like that thread is what Ihedinobi has being pushing for, how you can't see that is, well it's you.

BTW, drumb, trustman and co, when are you going to contend and withstand to the face these your friends that are preaching prosperity gospel? Goshen, Nora and Gnoni are preaching that once someone give his life to Christ, he's blessed or something like that abi no bi prosperity gospel be that?

https://www.nairaland.com/1799518/rccg-july-holy-ghost-service/1#24484671

ihedinobi2:
Twin bro, good to see you. I'd actually already unfollowed this thread so I only saw your comment in my "following" tab.

Thanks for responding brother.

You may be asking the wrong question. You see, if Jesus is to be believed and the rest of the Scriptures to be accepted as true, then the question here would be: 'what should we do when we find a plague attacking our Master's crops?'

I would say that we go after the plague to eradicate it. What would you say?

The current approach makes the human preachers the enemy (I'm still deliberately refusing to examine their works to pass judgment because of the audience here). Paul said in no uncertain terms that our warfare is never against men but against spiritual authorities. And what the Lord told us to judge is "every spirit" and "every doctrine". In no place were we told to judge men in the manner that I see here. I do see a judgment of a man in 1 Corinthians 5 and in verse 11, extortioners are to be refused fellowship too and I can see how that would be relevant to the brothers on this thread. But, the question is how to ascertain that one is an extortioner, right? By the doctrine, no?

This is why all the emotion being hurled about does not impress me. I want to see that the doctrine has been examined and found wanting spiritually. This is why I came here. Don't forget that I know this side quite well. I have had my own issues with structured religion in the past that you are well aware of. If one wants to judge righteously, they cannot make the person the issue. If they do, their judgment will be false. As I have shown already, Jesus was not tame in his denouncement of the Pharisees, yet He did not decline their hospitality nor did He reject their visits nor did He fail to plead for them before God. If He had issues with themselves, He would not have done as He did.

Paul in his own time had real trouble with false apostles. We have clear evidence that he did not make it a personal warfare. You remember that he even said that some people preached the gospel out of envy for their own gain but what did he do about it? What you see on display on this thread is petty squabbling that is not meant at all to build up the House of God for, you see, how do you know that one is a false teacher and not a true teacher making honest mistakes? This was why Jesus said that the tares are not to be rooted up before the harvest because you will mistake some wheat for tares and some tares for wheat. If you focused instead on the doctrine itself you would deliver even the true teachers who are walking in error. This method only destroys those who belong in the Kingdom but have been captured by some lie of the enemy.

To close, I will quote Paul, I think: "judge nothing before the time." Let us study the Bible. Let us learn to discover falsehood and thus show those caught in it the light. Let us expose wickedness and in doing so give the wicked a chance to escape. As for protecting the Church, by exposing error itself, you preserve the Church far more than you would by causing this kind of strife.

Actually brother, the approach that I have seen here has been a thorough examination of the doctrine and why it falls short of the truth. I have not seen criticism of specific people for anything other than false messages actions which they performed in public.

Perhaps I haven't looked properly. If so, please show me what I may have overlooked by quoting instances on this thread.

I know for a fact that you don't buy the WOF corruption of truth. I wonder why you won't openly call a person who tells lies a liar. I do not think that these people are true teachers making mistakes for this reason: They claim that the Holy Spirit gave them their message.

It is either the Holy Spirit now teaches a false doctrine that contradicts His word revealed in scripture or these people are lying against the Holy Spirit by claiming that they are led by Him when they clearly aren't.
Now whether they are willfully preaching against God's truth or being manipulated by demons, we must still point out that the WOF doctrine is a doctrine of demons and those that preach it preach heresy.
If these men repent, then we will embrace them as brothers but until that day, their doctrine must be identified for exactly what it is. The proponents of this false doctrine must also be identified for exactly who they are. They are men publicly propagating a false doctrine from the depths of hell.

I do not think that there is any way to expose the wickedness of a false doctrine without creating a division in church for truth by it's very nature is divisive. It will divide between sin and righteousness and those who sin will hate those who hold unto the truth. My brother, I would rather that God's people be divided by Truth than to be united in sin.

CAVEAT: I do not necessarily consider any or all of the men named here to be in any kind of error nor do I necessarily consider all or any of the teachings objected to here to be erroneous. I have offered the principals of this thread an opportunity to examine their objections and they have rejected it therefore I neither endorse them nor their work by anything I have said above.

Brother please if there is a case to be made for the WOF movement, please make it. As you well know, I would rather be true to God's word than be right in my own eyes.
I have publicly declared that the word of faith doctrine is demonic on several occasions but perhaps it is I who preaches a demonic doctrine. If so then please show me through scripture that their message is true and I will publicly repent and even go further to defend it as vehemently as I have opposed it.

God bless you Ofunna m.

Image123:

It's apparently civil only because it is largely ignored by opposing views. i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice. I'm adding this passage to the mix.
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

My brother, let us not judge them by how they may have responded in the past. Let us judge this thread based on its merits. I really would appreciate this thread more if it was not one-sided but if the opposition refuse to show up, I don't see why I should bother. What matters to me is that the truth is being proclaimed.

I don't have as much time as I used to have (and I am not as addicted to Nairaland as I used to be) but so far I have been reading this thread and enjoying it.

If anyone has a case to make for the Word of Faith movement, please I am interested in hearing it and would love to engage with it and happily examine it through scripture.

P/s: I hope you are not suggesting by the verse you cited that we should allow our brethren to be deceived until the day of rapture

MrAnony1:
Thanks for responding brother.


I would say that we go after the plague to eradicate it. What would you say?

Exactly the same. Which is why it doesn't quite make sense to go hunting the perceived vectors.

Actually brother, the approach that I have seen here has been a thorough examination of the doctrine and why it falls short of the truth. I have not seen criticism of specific people for anything other than false messages actions which they performed in public.

Perhaps I haven't looked properly. If so, please show me what I may have overlooked by quoting instances on this thread.

I have seen these arguments before and made them myself. I perused the first page when I first came here and saw so much about Napoleon Hill and Kenneth Hagin and Copeland etc. I did not go much beyond all of that because reading posts with so much "bolding", color and all that is a bit much for me nowadays. Perhaps it has to do with how much mental attention I can spare or it really is just me growing older. Whatever the case, the posts were difficult to read.

What I did notice were denouncements of persons on that first page. And I took exception to that. I will explain why later in this post.

I know for a fact that you don't buy the WOF corruption of truth. I wonder why you won't openly call a person who tells lies a liar. I do not think that these people are true teachers making mistakes for this reason: They claim that the Holy Spirit gave them their message.

It is either the Holy Spirit now teaches a false doctrine that contradicts His word revealed in scripture or these people are lying against the Holy Spirit by claiming that they are led by Him when they clearly aren't.
Now whether they are willfully preaching against God's truth or being manipulated by demons, we must still point out that the WOF doctrine is a doctrine of demons and those that preach it preach heresy.
If these men repent, then we will embrace them as brothers but until that day, their doctrine must be identified for exactly what it is. The proponents of this false doctrine must also be identified for exactly who they are. They are men publicly propagating a false doctrine from the depths of hell.

I do not think that there is any way to expose the wickedness of a false doctrine without creating a division in church for truth by it's very nature is divisive. It will divide between sin and righteousness and those who sin will hate those who hold unto the truth. My brother, I would rather that God's people be divided by Truth than to be united in sin.

An admirable sentiment, I assure you, twin bro. It is indeed better that we suffer what pain Truth will bring than take the pleasures of deception because if we are wounded by Truth we will also be healed by it.

However, let us ascertain first if this thread has been moving in the way of truth. You say that these people being judged here could not have been making a mistake because they claimed that the Holy Spirit gave them the message they preach. But then that would assume that one could never be mistaken about what the Holy Spirit says. Is that a valid assumption to make, twin bro? You remember Jesus's letters to the seven churches of Asia? Were there errors in those churches or not? Do we not personally in our walk with God misunderstand Him and even "mis-hear" Him rather often? And not know it at all?

The beginning is always to first examine the doctine, not so? It does not do at all to merely assume that it is wrong but to learn what is wrong with it and why it can deceive any Christian and thus put together an answer to it that will save us from deception.

Brother please if there is a case to be made for the WOF movement, please make it. As you well know, I would rather be true to God's word than be right in my own eyes.
I have publicly declared that the word of faith doctrine is demonic on several occasions but perhaps it is I who preaches a demonic doctrine. If so then please show me through scripture that their message is true and I will publicly repent and even go further to defend it as vehemently as I have opposed it.

God bless you Ofunna m.

I know you, my brother. We are of the same seed you and I. I have no doubt that you would do as you have said. I actually hoped that we could examine both the objections to the WoF theology and the WoF theology itself on this thread. If that had happened, it would have been very clear what I have learned over the past few months but the principals of this thread would not have it so.

To start with, do you remember what Jude said concerning some members of the Church? Begin from the fourth verse of the only chapter of his short message to the sixteenth to get the context. Where I would draw your attention are three verses, the eighth, the ninth and the tenth. I can't quote them here because I'm restricted to my phone and it is always a particular difficulty to quote here. If you have the KJV, note these parts: "these dreamers...despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with (note this) the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not." (I quoted it all after all )

The lesson there is merely the attitude. There must be a sense of decorum and of respect for authority in the House of God. I pointed out before that Paul had issues regarding false apostles and what did he do about it? Do we see railing accusations? Indeed there were times that he named names, but as I pointed out naming names is not the issue, how we name names is. You have listened to Tom Wright. You know how he is ever open to debate and questioning. Do you see the grace with which he makes his deliveries? It is not good that we are found in petty squabbles. If a doctrine is dangerous, show that it is and be careful to warn anyone directly who espouses them. You don't make them into topics of discussion, you rebuke them to their face. It may be necessary to rebuke them publicly like Paul did Peter to save those who may be falling into their error. However, look at the dynamics today. There are so many out there espousing one teaching or another and because of the Internet you can see a lot of these teachings and they'll never themselves see you. What then? Focus on the teachings themselves. Identify the error in them and show the Truth. Once people can tell what the Truth is, it does not matter who bringd the lie, they will know to escape. Making it personal is both unnecessary and generally counter-productive.


Next, there are serious errors that are associated with the WoF theology but if Word of Faith theology itself is merely that one may speak what one has seen in the Bible to a situation and have it done to them, there is no error in that. The snare is in the fact that when lust is the driver, quite a few of us will take only the part that says that we will have whatever we say and forget the part about saying only what God says. You see, we don't naturally trust God. It takes a work of grace for us to trust God. So some of us will attempt to make the Word of Faith an issue of saying whatever we want and insisting on bending the environment to our will. Such a thing opens the road to demonic oppression, frustration and unbelief.

The Word of Faith theology, as far as I know, is about taking what God says to be true and acting and speaking in agreement with it. God disagrees vehemently with the pursuit of money, for instance, but promises that there will be overflow when we trust Him and make sure to pursue endeavors that are worthy of Him. So if I find a dream to pursue which I examine in the light of the Bible and find it resonant with Christ and devote my energies to accomplishing the purposes of God in it, I am right to expect, act like and speak like there is overflow and abundance going to come out of it. This is a spiritual and a psychological activity. Jesus said that as a man thinks in his heart so he is and that no one speaks or acts but according to what is already in their heart. Thus, taking in the Word of God and mulling it will align me psychologically with God's attitude towards things and His Speakings as well. Speaking the Word will also conform the environment to Christ for it is the same Word that created it that will command its goings and comings.


Prosperity is a major issue in the Word of Faith wars. My answer to that is that whether it is that we should be rich or we should be poor, everybody is wrong to make money the issue. The poor can worship money just as much as the rich. The focus of the Bible is not on money. It is on good works. If any man walks in the Word, he will produce good works and God will thus prosper him in material things. This is the solemn promise of Jesus Himself (see Matthew 6:33 particularly). When we suffer in poverty, it is the result of any or both of two things: we either are not walking in good works and/or we are simply finding it hard to believe God's Promise and thus act on it.

With many anti-WoF activists, the issue is more the latter than the former, miracles scare usy because they are so improbable. I have wanted something so bad that I feared disappointment. And that fear is what the Bible calls doubt. And if you doubt even a little, God's Work in the matter halts. Peter proved it when he walked on water at Jesus's word and a Jewish village proved it when Jesus Himself could not do many works among them because of their unbelief.

Faith requires trusting God with something. And when it is your own survival that can be very hard, my brother. Adam was cast out of Eden for taking his destiny into his own hands. It is no mean thing to expect a miracle. And anti-WoF people fear disappointment so much that they look for ways to justify their lack of faith even up to attempting to invalidate the Scriptures. I should know, I've been there too.


Another issue is health and healing. All of the above applies too. The fear of trusting God has us running to concoct strange theology to excuse us from exercising His Power in our circumstances, for what if we fail? The shame, the heartbreak. Even now I personally am not quite ready to demand healing for my own eyes because I don't have enough faith for it. Believe me, Faith is powerful and active and we are afraid to be found not having it. So we play down our need for it and try to avoid facing God's Promises.

But what does this ultimately do? It means that God's Hands continue to be tied. Unless He shows Himself strong in our behalf, the earth will not know that He is THE God. So He hungers and waits and draws us all the time to see His Promises and take Him up on them. But we don't. We hate being told to expect anything at His Hand because it is always a terrible test of faith to do so.

We glory in the Cross and that is well and good indeed. But in addition to the Death in the Cross there is the Resurrection as well. And Jesus said that when we give things up to serve Him, we will get them back a hundredfold in this life along with persecutions. But who is willing to trust God to fulfill His Promises regarding our bodily life? We would rather just wait for eternity, the more distant the test of faith the better. But we are of use today, right now in the world. We must learn to exercise power as much as we exercise doctrine or else we are useless to God in the world and the eternity we wait for will be mean indeed.

I have drawn on my experiences and the Word to give you my answers, twin bro. Please, as you are apt to do, consider them carefully and wholly before taking a stand on them.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

The Distortion of the Cross

This needs no introduction
It is exactly what it says on the tin wrapper before taking it out of the tin-box,
it is "The Distortion of the Cross" nothing more, nothing less.

It is not a doctrine per se or in itself
because "The Distortion of the Cross" actually is the occasional rubbishing of the cross
It is criticizing the cross mildly or severely and rejecting it as worthless

Some of us, I am sure can remember from a former and similar thread, although now defunct,
that this was the one (i.e. The Distortion of the Cross) that caused a bit of brouhaha on that then thread
It was the one Gombs, nlMediator, mbaemeka and others tripped on
(i.e. agreeing that: the cross... is a place of defeat and failure)

"The Distortion of the Cross" in manners like this may sound alarming
but pleased be assured that it is really a púššycát when compared with "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually"

"The Distortion of the Cross" is sparring
it is like making heavy boxing motions without landing blows
but with "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine, it is different kettle of fish

I will adjure you to watch out for the exposé on WoF's "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine
The "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine according to WoF is gory,
WoF distorts what happened to Jesus, distorts how Jesus died, distorts when Jesus spiritually died
distorts when Jesus spiritually resurrected, distorts where we obtained our atonement,
distorts when we obtained our atonement, distorts how we obtained our atonement
WoF literally just hacked down the cross and all that was achieved and accomplished on it.

One does not see any knowledge gap(s) that warrants
or justifies the thinking behind WoF teaching JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually doctrine) the way it teaches it.
The Distortion of the Cross is bad enough as it is, though, it is like a kick in the teeth
but with JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually doctrine) it's mega worse, it is a kick in the gonads
- and it makes one double up in pain, screaming ouch, ouch, ouch.

despite the glaring indications in the bible, you'll be dumbfounded at the length
noticing how WoF got carried away to just bastardize
and distort the whole atonement message for sheer sensationalism and filthy lucre
Some may actually be clueless and just following the herd
or just jumped blindly on the "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine bandwagon.

If one thinks "The Distortion of the Cross" is bad, then trust me "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" is triple X bad
"JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" is definitely "The Distortion of the Cross" on steroids

The "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine is one of the highlights of this "Word of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents" exposé
so as previously advised, we strongly adjure you to watch out for the discussion on WoF's "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine.
There is no defining moment but 100% guaranteed great benefits from following the exposé on WoF's "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" doctrine

Before we delve properly in to "The Distortion of the Cross" we need to address some concerns
Concerns such as those raised by the likes of Ihedinobi2, RedReact, MrAnony1, Image123 and maybe wordthots
(i.e. indirectly raised by wordthots on an old and separate thread)

The following at nearly all of the concerns or comments made about the thread:

- only problem with it is that it isn't meant to edify judging by the animosity on display
- wonder if any of the brothers speaking has thought to stop
and imagine whether the same words that they use
would have been Jesus's choice were He the one addressing the issue here.
- Can any of you give me some examples of places
where Jesus was "naming and shaming" Pharisees and religious leaders of His day?
- For the first passage, I do not see any "naming". Nicodemus was a Pharisee that Jesus met personally and knew of.
So was Simon and possibly a few others but I see none of their names or any others.
- Can any of you explain how and why He accepted their invitations to their homes
and their hospitality and their own personal visits to Him?
- Can any of you show me parallels between what you're doing and what He did in His day?
- A lot has been and is being said and I find the thread a bit too tedious to read.
- I see Jesus doing a lot of rebuking, that is,
correcting by pointing out the errors of the religious leaders of His day and showing their gravity.
I don't see much in the way of personal attacks
- I figured a simple discussion of one issue at a time
would help everybody and possibly keep confusion, complication and unnecessary aggression at bay
- You're quite determined to decide whether my name goes on your list of enemies, aren't you?
- I have already made clear that I do not consider the thread edifying.
That is not an opinion that you are required to share.
- I beg you, is the language and tone of Paul in this passage comparable to the language and tone of this thread?
- The point was whether there were personal attacks in Jesus's own example
with the religious leaders of His day as there evidently are on this thread
- Of course, the thread does not need popularity. It already has it in abundance. That was my point
- thank you for engaging me so far. It was not as productive as I'd hoped.
I will see if anything comes of other engagements I have here.
If not, I will wait for another opportunity to examine the truth in this anti-WoF theology
- I've told you that personal attacks are what you have done on this thread to the ministers you've named
- When you attack one's person, you are not attacking their errors, it is them you have issue with not their error.
When you are attacking an error, it is only incidental that a person is involved.
This is why we know nothing of any personal grouse Jesus had with Pharisees and others.
He visited their homes and shared their meals
because his fight was with the spirit that held them bound in their error not with they themselves.
- The acceptable start is always that these people are your family.
If they are in error, THEY need to be corrected. Not destroyed.
The absence of mercy and compassion is strong evidence of the absence of Christ Himself.
- Is @truthislight really correct in calling this examination a distraction?
Are you responding correctly in choosing to ignore it seeing that you yourself are also examining a theology at your own behest?
Shall your objections not be judged by the Scriptures only because they are objections and yours at that?
Are you and the others here above the judgment of the Scriptures? Is that why you can say the things in the quoted post above?
- I request that you desist from incessantly asking me to explain things I write.
Shall I write a comprehensive summary on every statement I make?
You should be able to point out what problems you have with any statement I make
- upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread,
I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame
- I do not necessarily consider any or all of the men named here to be in any kind of error
nor do I necessarily consider all or any of the teachings objected to here to be erroneous
I have offered the principals of this thread an opportunity to examine their objections
and they have rejected it therefore I neither endorse them nor their work by anything I have said above
- i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice
- There's a world of difference between that thread and this.
Something like that thread (i.e. https://www.nairaland.com/1188495/fellow-christians-what-happening-us/5)
is what Ihedinobi has being pushing for, how you can't see that is, well it's you

This is reiterating the message of an earlier post that contrary to an impression perceived,
the thread is not about "opening up to the fraud and lies in what is called 'Christianity' in churches today" per se
but rather, it is about putting Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents, specifically, under a microscope
It is about examining each of their doctrine(s) along with putting it's proponents under close scrutiny
It is not, necessarily about the fraud and lies perpetrated in the body of Christ at large
but as explicitly shown or stated by the title of the thread, it is about those of WoF movement.

Restating again, contrary to continued and inherent perception the thread is not set up
nor used to harass or undermine those with differing doctrines, teachings or views.

The thread as earlier mentioned is about examining the doctrines of WoF
and not interested in the personalities per se.

We are aware that some of us are sentimentally attached to various personalities, MoGs etc WoF inclusive
hence the defense and attempts to prevent or protect them from what is perceived as personal attacks

This is unfair and unacceptable that the frequent regurgitation of these absurd claims of naming to shame
destroying people, putting names on enemies' list, personal vendetta etc
are distracting and deflecting the purpose of the thread from been carried out.

We are advised to hold up under the light of the scriptures all teachings
We are commanded to test all things, examine the teachers, rightly divide the Word of truth
and test the Spirits because not all come from the Lord.
Isn't that what so far on the thread has being done?

Some have given this thread a wide berth, some like Image123 etc had rained on the thread's parade
Why people even bother commenting on threads when they haven't got meaningful contributions beats me.
It's so annoying...

We know that WoF movement seemingly has somewhat, if not more some good teachings.

We know that people have been opportune to have libraries or comprehensive list of almost all the WoF messages ever preached
whether via audio, books, CD/DVDs, TV Channels, seminars, newsletters, magazines etc

We know too, that such fortunate people strenuously vouch that most of these message they've listened to are sound.
in other words, they find the teachings 100% faultless,
that none of the teachings whatsoever are iffy, unsettling, doubtful, un-biblical, dodgy, controversial, awkward etc

We are aware that in defense, the responses are in the form of, some of teachings are not properly understood by others
but are taken to the extremes or out of context and that these extremes "were and are" sadly attributed to the WoF movement.

The thread is not against WoF teachings or discouraging Christians from hearing or listening to them
WoF movement are free to say, to teach etc

The thread is not advising throwing out the baby and soap with the dirty bath water
rather, it is pointing out where the bones are
and advising should in case you're eating the fish
know when to spit out the bones and/or how to spit out the bones.

After all like Voltaire, this thread might say:

“I do not agree with what you have to say,
but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”

This is not a witch hunt or character assassination.

It is not critising the personalities per se
but rather the principalities behind the personalities' doctrine
and the reason and motives behind the doctrine.

There is already so much misleading and inaccurate doctrines out there
If anyone is going to put teachings out there at least make sure it is accurate
and know what such person is talking about

It is nice to see that there are many well informed Christians out there,
unfortunately some of us still do need help to perform the Bereans and check facts and truths

This is the purpose and why the thread has this responsibility to the audience
who are trying to learn the bible healthier without any sorrow added

Sorry, now that the air being cleared and gotten cleared off, let's get back to business

We are discussing that "The Distortion of the Cross" is not a doctrine per se or in itself
but rather "The Distortion of the Cross" actually is the occasional rubbishing of the cross
It is criticizing the cross mildly or severely and rejecting it as worthless.

We've wasted enough time and space,
so we won't dwell too long on this but cut straight to the chase.

It is going to be a lot easier with exhibits.



So hereby we tender the exhibits of this discussion (i.e. "The Distortion of the Cross'')
Let's now see what both exhibits have to say about the cross

Here are Kenneth Hagin & Kenyon exhibits own words speak for themselves:

Kenneth Hagin wrote
"The trouble with us is that we've preached a 'cross' religion,
and we need to preach a 'throne' religion.
By that I mean that people have thought they were supposed to remain at the cross.
Some have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit,
have backed up to the cross,
and have stayed there ever since...
The cross is actually a place of defeat,
whereas the Resurrection is a place of triumph.
When you preach the cross, you're preaching death,
and you leave people in death."
(Ken Hagin, "The Believer's Authority," page 16. Second Edition 1986)

E.W. Kenyon wrote
“We have sung `Nearer the cross'
and we have prayed that we might be
`Nearer the cross' but the cross has no salvation in it.
It is a place of failure and defeat”
(Advanced Bible Course, p.279)



Kenneth Hagin doesn't as such publicly admit being influenced by Kenyon or Christian Science
but from the evidences of the exhibits, it is glaring the similarities and obvious
where from Hagin and the WoF movement got this "The Distortion of the Cross" of an idea from.

This "The Distortion of the Cross" doctrine was widely taught by all in the WoF movement until recently
where the wiser ones in the movement have stopped actively teaching it,
however some in the Hagin camp and the Copelands still fervently believe and teach this doctrine

The cross is actually a place of defeat?!
The cross is a place of failure?!!
There is no salvation in the cross?!!!
What a bunch of sophisticated arrogant pack of lies.

Of course, the cross seemingly initially looked like is a place of suffering
but on hindsight, it actually was a case of "weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" (i.e. Psalms 30:5)

The cross is central and important to every Christians lives
even more so, that Jesus even categorically commands that whoever wants to be His follower take up his cross and follow Him
and warns that whoever does not take up his cross and follow Him is not worthy of Him
(i.e. Mathew 16:24, Matthew 10:38 and Luke 9:23)

How is it possible for anyone to say preaching the cross, is preaching death and leaving people in death
or that the cross has no salvation in it, it is a place of failure and defeat?



The "resurrection" of Jesus served to prove the Deity of Jesus
it proves the power Jesus has as God to raise himself from the dead
(i.e. unlike the power which the two thieves on cross did not have, even if it were to say, they were to die for man's sin too)
just like He previously raised Lazarus
and it has nothing whatsoever to do with our redemption.
We obtained our redemption, EVERYTHING, ALL therein on the cross and no where else.
Ephesian 1:7, Colossians 1:14, 1 Peter 2:24 among other several verses attests to this fact and truth.

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
- Ephesian 1:7 NIV

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
- Colossians 1:14KJ Bible

He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross
so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right.
By his wounds you are healed
- 1 Peter 2:24 NLT



The cross represents and expresses the great love God has for man (i.e. John 3:16)
and the Bible is extremely clear that it was on the cross where the penalty of our sins was paid,
it is on this same cross where the blood of Jesus was spilled and accepted as a ransom for us
It was on the cross that Jesus declared everything was done when saying: "It is finish" (i.e. John 19:30)

Let's hear what Paul has to say about "The Distortion of the Cross":

But may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus,
the Messiah, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world!
- Galatians 6:14 ISV

for I decided not to know any thing among you,
except Jesus Christ, and him crucified;
- 1 Corinthians 2:2 Young's Literal Translation

For the message about the cross is nonsense
to those who are being destroyed,
but it is God's power to us who are being saved.
- 1 Corinthians 1:18 ISV

For, as I have often told you before
and now tell you again even with tears,
many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
- Philippians 3:18 NIV



Satan is enjoying this,
as satan extremely loves diverting attention away from the cross
Did it with the Muslims (i.e. they claim Jesus didn’t die on the cross but perhaps it was Judas)
with the Mormons (i.e. they claim Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane)
and Christian Science... (i.e. they waffle a lot and then eventually end up with Jesus's death is an illusion)

We will conclude here but be assured that
the "The Distortion of the Cross" really is a púššycát when compared with JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually doctrine)
"The Distortion of the Cross" is mellow and tamed here whereas JDS is OTT and wild
JDS à-la WoF doctrine is graphical, gory, dark, shady and sinister
WoF's version of event without a shadow of doubt is founded on something made up, dreamed up or learned incorrectly
"JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" definitely is "The Distortion of the Cross" on steroids

I REST MY CASE ON F5, FOR NOW.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

trustman:

“Contend earnestly for the faith” – Jude 3

"11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible," - Ephesians 5: 11&13

"Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." - Revelation 2:6

What am i expected to do with these?

MrAnony1:
My brother, let us not judge them by how they may have responded in the past. Let us judge this thread based on its merits. I really would appreciate this thread more if it was not one-sided but if the opposition refuse to show up, I don't see why I should bother. What matters to me is that the truth is being proclaimed.

I don't have as much time as I used to have (and I am not as addicted to Nairaland as I used to be) but so far I have been reading this thread and enjoying it.

If anyone has a case to make for the Word of Faith movement, please I am interested in hearing it and would love to engage with it and happily examine it through scripture.

P/s: I hope you are not suggesting by the verse you cited that we should allow our brethren to be deceived until the day of rapture

My brother, i know them by their fruits as it were. i'm not judging them, it's something that can be demonstrated. Maybe you did not see the other thread that birthed this one, they can testify. The opposing views refused to show up because these fellows were more interested in cliques and friction, and those guys were not 'edified'.
Good for you that you're enjoying the thread, sorry i didn't bother. i can't because i'll have to reply, and that would definitely 'derail' their thread, trust me. Even when i tried reading when i was bored, i was put off by the first post i read which was on page 4 or so. i've being skimming mainly since.
i'm not for or against the Word of Faith movement, whatever it is. It seems people don't even know what it is as there are different and ridiculous views. Even those that have being called NL WoF were so named by our fellas here before they knew it. i am for the Truth.

Here's the verse i cited. i was hoping everyone could draw their conclusions, presenting it as an option not previously looked at.

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Those are the words of Jesus about JUDGEMENT/CONDEMNING. It's about God's kingdom(which the church is a part of) and the enemy sowing tares in God's kingdom. The answer is clear from the Lord. "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:" i'm not sure we are wiser than Him. There is a way correction is done and warning carried out. Drumb gave a link earlier that says pretty much what this thread is perhaps hoping to say.(THIS ). Methinks that's a christian way to correct and warn, instead of the propensity of attacking the messenger instead of the message.

Image123:
Here's the verse i cited. i was hoping everyone could draw their conclusions, presenting it as an option not previously looked at.

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Those are the words of Jesus about JUDGEMENT/CONDEMNING. It's about God's kingdom(which the church is a part of) and the enemy sowing tares in God's kingdom. The answer is clear from the Lord. "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:" i'm not sure we are wiser than Him. There is a way correction is done and warning carried out. Drumb gave a link earlier that says pretty much what this thread is perhaps hoping to say.(THIS ). Methinks that's a christian way to correct and warn, instead of the propensity of attacking the messenger instead of the message.

Two things can be gleaned from the Matthew 13 scripture

1. God's servants were able to distinguish between wheat and tares and the Master acknowledged this.

2. The Master insisted that the tares are not rooted out, stating that this was the exclusive preserve of God.

The aim of this thread is still in keeping with the spirit of 1 above, and that is being able to distinguish false from true. The Master did not stop them from doing this. Indeed every scripture that warns on falsehood does this. Now, if in the bid not to name names, the servants chooses to call tares wheat, shall we not say such a servant is doing the vineyard disservice? Paul commanded Timothy after warning of false doctrines in church: "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shall be a good minister of Jesus... These things command and teach" 1 Timothy 4:6,11. We are still withing syllabus here.

However number 2 is the exclusive preserve of God, its beyond the syllabus of this thread. To root out will be to deprive of life; it would mean bringing judgement; it would mean death and total annihilation. It is easy for one to think that because there is falsehood somewhere then a swift end should come to that place; the minister should fall down and die; God cannot use even such falsehood for good; etc. Those are the thinking of finite minds and Christ is saying that God is able to bring good out of evil but as for judgement of falsehood at the end, only God can do so. None of us can and it is not the aim of this thread to do so. You may peruse the OP for the purposes stated there.

As to the messenger and his message, the two cannot be divorced from each other. Whatever befalls one, befalls the other. Nonetheless, the thread seeks to peruse the message and the mention of various messengers simply cannot be avoided. It is my humble counsel however that we all seek to be followers of Jesus who alone is infallible because when we follow men and have made tin gods out of them, that is when we become offended when names of our favorite ministers are mentioned in connection with false doctrine.

@BabGnoni, Thanks for your email, I appreciate it. I believe we shall yet have that game . . . .God willing.

@Ihedinobi and Image123, Thanks for replying, I think I understand your concerns, I will respond to them later when I make out the time. For now let the thread continue.

God bless y'all.

[size=14pt]Is there a need to write/speak against some practices of the WoF movement today? [/size]

Many Christians trust popular WoF preachers as people who are giving then Biblical truths. Where and when such teachings are actually in opposition to the Scripture these trusting followers are being misled into errors. They will therefore live their spiritual lives based on error and falsehood rather than the truth. The result should be obvious to any unbiased mind. 

No well-meaning believer will doubt that there is the need to set believers free from a wrong spiritual mindset so they can live the Christian Way of Life as Christ intended it to be. Living outside God's prescribed way leads to the believer eventually losing out on what should have been his - "Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward" (2 John 1:. 

Wrong teachings not only deny the believer of a fruitful and impactful life here on earth but also of eternal rewards which surpasses anything they can have in this life. Man-made traditions, distorted teachings, and the like, have always been obstacles to the true spiritual life the Christian is to live in Christ. 

The Bible is full of warnings to keep off, reject, discern (and use of similar language) wrong teachings:
Acts 17:11- "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" 

Romans 16:17 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which Ye have learned; and avoid them"

1 Corinthians 4:6 - "I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another."

2 Corinthians 6:17 - "Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,"

Galatians 1:8-9 - "8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

Ephesians 5:11 - "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

Philippians 1:9-11 - "
9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

1 Thessalonians 5:21 - "but test everything; hold fast what is good."

2 Thessalonians 3:6 - "Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

2 Timothy 3:5-7 - "5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."

Titus 1:9 - "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."

Titus 3:10 - "A man who is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject"(KJV). 

2 Peter 2:1 - "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

1 John 4:1 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

2 John vs 10&11 - "10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

There is therefore the need to provide information to help people identify the teachings that are contrary to sound doctrine and separate them from the pure Word of God. Keeping quiet, glossing over issues, refusing to 'hit the nail on the head' as it were will actually do more harm not only to the body of Christ but to a true witness to the world of who and what our God is. 

DrummaBoy:

Two things can be gleaned from the Matthew 13 scripture

1. God's servants were able to distinguish between wheat and tares and the Master acknowledged this.

2. The Master insisted that the tares are not rooted out, stating that this was the exclusive preserve of God.

The aim of this thread is still in keeping with the spirit of 1 above, and that is being able to distinguish false from true. The Master did not stop them from doing this. Indeed every scripture that warns on falsehood does this. Now, if in the bid not to name names, the servants chooses to call tares wheat, shall we not say such a servant is doing the vineyard disservice? Paul commanded Timothy after warning of false doctrines in church: "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shall be a good minister of Jesus... These things command and teach" 1 Timothy 4:6,11. We are still withing syllabus here.

However number 2 is the exclusive preserve of God, its beyond the syllabus of this thread. To root out will be to deprive of life; it would mean bringing judgement; it would mean death and total annihilation. It is easy for one to think that because there is falsehood somewhere then a swift end should come to that place; the minister should fall down and die; God cannot use even such falsehood for good; etc. Those are the thinking of finite minds and Christ is saying that God is able to bring good out of evil but as for judgement of falsehood at the end, only God can do so. None of us can and it is not the aim of this thread to do so. You may peruse the OP for the purposes stated there.

As to the messenger and his message, the two cannot be divorced from each other. Whatever befalls one, befalls the other. Nonetheless, the thread seeks to peruse the message and the mention of various messengers simply cannot be avoided. It is my humble counsel however that we all seek to be followers of Jesus who alone is infallible because when we follow men and have made tin gods out of them, that is when we become offended when names of our favorite ministers are mentioned in connection with false doctrine.

just move on. It's almost impossible for you to understand what I've said.

Image123:
just move on. It's almost impossible for you to understand what I've said.

I understand you well enough. I should ask if YOU understand what you quoted above.

As for moving on... I won't give you that pleasure. I hope you remember you met me on this thread?

DrummaBoy:

I understand you well enough. I should ask if YOU understand what you quoted above.

As for moving on... I won't give you that pleasure. I hope you remember you met me on this thread?

Jesus is Lord, you do have comprehension issues. Okay, have the last word.

[size=14pt]Is there a need to write/speak against some practices of the WoF movement today? [/size]

The Parable of the Weeds
Matthew 13:24-30


The weeds are in the heart
that's where the wheat and tare comes and/or sprouts from

The garden or field is our hearts
and the seed is, either the Word of God
or the lies, from the father of all lies, Satan, the enemy of our souls.


Yeah, that is right, the weed is in the field of the heart
which is why we are not called to be the “divine weed-whackers” (i.e. that part of snuffing out, is not part of our remit)
as that final destruction and prerogative, at the right time, is the exclusive right of God


We are however responsible, and not prevented from distinguishing wheat from tare
We are however responsible, and not prevented from pointing out which plant is wheat, or which is tare
We are however responsible, and not prevented from showing what is wheat, or what is tare
We also however, are responsible and not prevented from warning where wheat seed is coming from, or where tare seed is coming from

Before I present this article, I want to say upfront that I do not agree with everything Femi Aribisala writes.
I think among other issues, his rejection of Apostle Paul's epistles as inspired scripture is error.
Nevertheless what he has to say on the blind reliance on our leading, favorite or sentimentally attached-to Pastors is very instructive and there are things to learn from it.
The article also ties in to some extent what so far, has being discussed on this thread:

[size=16pt]FEMI ARIBISALA ARTICLE ON
BEWARE OF LEADING, FAVORITE OR SENTIMENTALLY ATTACHED-TO PASTORS[/size]

^{Pastors are Jesus Killers
on July 13, 2014 / in Article of Faith 12:43 am
By Femi Aribisala}

It is these pastors that decided to sacrifice Jesus. And their descendants are the pastors currently running our churches.

Jesus is our redeemer. But from whom exactly does he redeem us? Does it make sense to presume he redeems us from God?

Some terrorists kidnapped a rich man’s children and held them hostage; asking for a ransom before they could be released? When the incident was reported in the press, they said it was their father who kidnapped them. That is ludicrous. It only shows the press is controlled by the kidnappers.

A father does not kidnap his own children, demand a ransom for their release and then pay the ransom himself to himself. God is not the wicked one who holds men hostage. But he is the loving Father who ransoms his children. “For the LORD will ransom Jacob and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they. They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion.” (Jeremiah 31:11-12).

It is the devil who keeps men in bondage. It is Jesus who comes to set the captives free. Jesus says: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

Kinsman-redeemer

Jesus is our kinsman-redeemer. He is the door by which we escape from bondage to eternal life. He is the gate by which we pass from death to life. Jesus says: “(God) has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released, that the blind will see, that the downtrodden will be freed from their oppressors.” (Luke 4:18).

Men are imprisoned by our sins. But God is not our jailer. God says: “Which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? For your iniquities you have sold yourselves.” (Isaiah 50:1). We are the ones who sell ourselves into bondage; and we sell ourselves to men and not to God.

We are also held in bondage because of our ignorance. God says: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6). Therefore, Jesus promises to provide the knowledge that opens the prison-doors to those in captivity. He says: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32).

Jesus redeems us from the wicked. God says: “Among my people are found wicked men; they lie in wait as one who sets snares; they set a trap; they catch men.” (Jeremiah 5:26). Wicked men, acting knowingly or unknowingly as the agents of the devil, hold other men in bondage to sin.

Therefore, Jesus gives charge to the redeemed to redeem others: “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues.” (Matthew 10:16-17).

Ferocious wolves

It is important to determine the precise identity of those wolves that are of the utmost concern to Jesus here. According to him, they are “ferocious” although in “sheep’s clothing.” (Matthew 7:15). They have their own synagogues and even refer to Jesus as “Lord.” But this means nothing. Jesus says: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:20-21).

That means today they will be Christians, for Christians are the ones who proclaim Jesus as Lord. Indeed, these wolves are most likely to be the pastors of our churches. Jesus says: “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.” (John 10:10). What the thief steals, kills and destroys is our very relationship with God. Jesus reveals that God himself is defined by the resurrection of that destroyed relationship. (John 11:25). Jesus is the giver of the life of eternal fellowship with God. Thus, Jesus declares: “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” (John 10:10).

The key people who steal God from our hearts are our priests and pastors. They are the ones who are determined to displace God and become the gods of our lives. They are the ones who fill our heads with false notions about God. They use the name of God to rob us blind. They use religion to turn us into zombies. “They are as greedy as dogs, never satisfied. They are stupid pastors, all following their own path, all of them intent on personal gain.” (Isaiah 56:11).

Jesus’ life is the ransom given to redeem us from these pastors who shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for they won’t enter or let others enter.” (Matthew 23:13). Jesus himself was hounded by these evil men. It was these men: the chief priests and the scribes; the pastors and bishops and popes of Jesus’ day, who plotted against him and handed him over to the Roman authorities to be killed. (Mark 10:32-34).

Jesus killers

Then and now, it is these pastors that are the thieves and the robbers of God in our lives. Then and now, it is these pastors that are Jesus killers. It is these pastors that decided to sacrifice Jesus. And their descendants are the pastors currently running our churches.

Jesus endangered the exalted positions of these evil men. He subjected them to ridicule. He provided original interpretations of the Law of Moses contrary to theirs. He disrupted their sacrificial system in the temple. Moreover, God backed up his words with great signs and wonders. The priests and the pastors reasoned that if Jesus’ ministry was not terminated with extreme prejudice, they would soon lose their privileged status in society.

They were convinced that if Jesus was not silenced, all the people they had kept in spiritual bondage would be set at liberty. The more Jesus preached, the more people came to see the light. The more he preached, the more he opened prison doors. The more he preached, the less regard the people had for their pastors. Therefore, they had to kill him in order to protect their selfish interests.

After he died, they put the people back into captivity by claiming he died for their sins. In truth, they killed him in the bid to cover their own sins. They reasoned that a dead Jesus would cease to be a threat to their churches of lies and falsehood. But then God confounded their plans by raising Jesus gloriously from the dead.

Whose report?

Jesus healed a sick man by telling him to get up and carry his bed. However, the priests said it is unlawful to carry a bed on the Sabbath. Whose report should he believe? The redeemed must believe the report of the Lord. It is the Lord who ransoms us from the power of the grave; and redeems us from death. (Hosea 13:14). Therefore the healed of the Lord should beware of the hypocrisy of those who now sit in Moses’ seat.

Jesus warns: “Do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” (Matthew 23:3-4).

- See more at: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/07/pastors-jesus-killers/#sthash.tBfRi0J4.dpuf

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

The cross is central to the Christian faith. No wonder then that it is one if the most attacked issues by cults and religions. 

WoF teachings about the cross happen to include 'stories' that are not substantiated by the Bible. 

Again these teachings originated with E. W. Kenyon (who was influenced by New Thought Metaphysics) from whom we have seen that Kenneth Hagin  derived most of his own 'doctrines'. Kenyon taught, among other things, that man is a little god "in God's class" and so can use the same faith-force that God does; a teaching we have looked at in F4. 

From Hagin, who popularized Kenyon and added to his theological deviations, other WoF preachers such as Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, Fredrick Price, Benny Hinn and company enlarged the deviations. 

Kenyon is quoted to have written: "Since sin and sickness are purely spiritual, mere physical death could never atone, nor could it deal with the source of sin and sickness: Satan".

WoF teachers' theory about the cross is that when Jesus died on the cross he became "sin" and was imputed with Satan's nature, abandoned by the Father, and went to hell for three days and three nights where he was tortured by the devil. According to most of the well known WoF teachers, Jesus did not complete his work of redemption upon the cross. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught nor the story that Jesus was tormented by Satan in hell. 

When Jesus told the thief in the cross "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" was he referring to a punishment by (or a wrestling match with) Satan in hell? When Jesus said "It is finished" was it a cry of anguish or a proclamation of victory?

If Jesus took on the nature of Satan, that will no longer make him the "... Lamb without blemish or spot" (Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19). That would have meant that he did not qualify to purchase our eternal redemption. 

The Scripture is clear that Christ's work was done AT THE CROSS - "He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, ..." (1Peter 2:24). It was the offering of himself to God that paid for our sins, not winning a wrestling match in hell over Satan. It was God that needed to be appeased; no one else.

Lets look at a few statements by WoF preachers on this: 
Kenneth Copeland 
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" he was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before he went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" ( Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory, April 1982, page3). 

Fred Price
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7)

This false doctrine has also been expressed by Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and other WoF teachers at one time or another. 

Why is this teaching wrong?
The teaching is wrong because the Bible teaches something different. See what 'the cross' did for us: 
Rev. 1:5b - "To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood"

1 Peter 2:24 - "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed"

Heb. 13:12 - "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate"

Colossians 2:14 - "by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

Colossians 1:20 - "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

Philipians 2:8 - "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Ephesians 1:7 - "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,"

Galatians 6:14 - "But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Clearly Jesus' work was done on the cross. The statement Jesus made on the cross " It is finished!" is said to be a single word in the Greek which means that what is finished stands finished for all eternity. It means in layman's terms, that it was a 'done deal'. It means the payment for man's sin debt was done in full. The matter was settled there and then - finalized. 

I REST MY CASE ON F5

"Truth is violated by falsehood, but it is outraged by silence."
- Henri-Frederic Amiel, Swiss philosopher

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

Two incidences in the Old Testament help us appreciate the central place that the cross of Jesus occupies in the Christian faith: the first being the events that culminated in the expulsion of Adam from Eden and the other being the incidence that led to Moses building a bronze snake in the wilderness.

When man fell to sin, God said to the serpent, the devil: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;  it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Genesis 3:15). In those words we find a prophetic lens into what was to happen on the cross of Jesus. Paul would later show us the full meaning of those texts: it was the princes of these world who would crucify the Lord of glory. But in doing so God, through Christ, would bruise the head of the serpent and thus bring many sons to God through faith in Christ. In the Garden of Eden, God again depicted the cross of Jesus, when he took an animal, slaughtered it and provided Adam and Eve with clothing. This again depicted the death of Jesus as the Lamb of God slain for the sin of men and thus providing man a covering of righteousness for the shame of sin we suffer.

The second incidence where we see the cross very glaringly depicted was in the wilderness after Moses and the children of Israel had had another round of altercation. God sends serpents into their midst and while they cried out from the pain of being bitten by the snakes, Moses is instructed to make a bronze snake and all the Israelites needed to do when bitten was to look up at the snake. Jesus would eventually link that incidence to himself as he said: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:14-15). “There is salvation in a look”, said C. H. Spurgeon.

It is clear to us today that God intentionally depicted his strength through the weakness of the cross. Paul told the Corinthian church, as he discussed Christ and him crucified, in 1 Corinthians, that the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Those who had followed the redemption story would realize, still from Paul’s words, that “God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;  and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:  That no flesh should glory in his presence.” (1 Corinthians 1: 27-29). That is why God chose for his Son to be born to lowly parentage; that he should be born in a manger; that he should be a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief; that he should be a man that had no where to lay his head and thus cannot be said to be rich; that he should be a man that would be despised and hated by both the religious and political authorities; and that he should be a man that would eventually die an ignominious death on the cross. In all these, God was simply confirming his strength so that no man would glory in his presence.

Unfortunately, the times have changed since our Lord and Savior walked the earth. We are in a season when Christianity should not be seen as a religion of the poor or the weak. Christianity, we are shown today is a religion for “Supermen” (Do you remember the teachings of Friedrich Nietzsche?) We are in times when Christianity is associated with breakthroughs, lifting, signs and wonders, blessings, riches, ostentatious lifestyles, rich pastors dressed in expensive clothing, jet flying and limousine cruising clergies, etc. Christianity, we are told is not for the weak, failures and defeated, rather than Christianity is for the strong. This gradual deflection from orthodox Christian practice and doctrine did not come suddenly. Rather, it came as certain men began to teach damnable heresies by going straight to the central theme of the gospel, the cross and tried to distort it. The Mohhamedians before them had tried it by saying Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. When they began to teach their own gospel they said “that there is no redemption at the cross… the cross is a place of failure and defeat”.

It was extremely important for these gentlemen to distort the essential message of the cross so that it would accommodate their heresies. While the cross of Jesus is originally meant to solve the sin question, alone. These men thought themselves wiser than God and included the fact that the cross of Jesus has redeemed us from sickness and poverty. At one end, God is telling humanity that our problem is sin, and the fact that we do not comprehend what the essential ingredients of His holiness are. That no matter how good we may claim to be, all of our righteousness can only earn his wrath. However, these men said that human beings have other problems. And these problems will essentially come under two headings: sickness and poverty. That the cross, if indeed it came to solve man’s problems that is sin, must solve these two problems also. This is the result of man making God into man’s own image.

Over the weekend I had a discussion with a Christian minister, who is also a friend and a brother. He told me that his wife once asked him why he does not preach to minister to people’s problems. That there are people in the congregation who have financial troubles and who may not be well. Why does he carry on preaching messages on sin, righteousness, God’s kingdom, and so on? This brother told me that he said to his wife: when men go to the bible to find solutions to their problems, they will discover heresies. But when we allow the bible to tell us what our problem is, we will find solution to the main problem of man, which is sin, and then all other needs we might seem to have will be solved also.

Modern day idolatry is man asking God to solve our problems, while God is telling us some other problem he wishes to solve for us. The trouble with humanity is not poverty and sickness. The trouble with humanity is sin. The cross of Jesus came to solve the sin problem (Matthew 1:21). When that is done, God has promised to solve other problems for us (Matthew 6:33). The origin of the distortion of the cross, therefore, arises from the fact that the WOF doctrines propose another purpose for the cross of Jesus Christ. In the process, it must distort the story of the cross to fit these distorted purposes of theirs. The trouble with the WOF gospel is that this distortion sometimes can be so subtlety done; so that what is preached can very much look like the gospel but at close scrutiny, it would be found out to be another gospel.

The discussions on this thread will continue to analyze the subtle distortions that the WOF gospel has done both to the cross of Jesus and the orthodox doctrines that came from it. I implore our readers to patiently follow the analysis.

I REST MY CASE ON F5

Friedrich Nietzsche was a 19th century philosopher and an atheist. He was the first to profound the theories that "God is dead" and those of the super man or the overman . Nietzsche theories began to find acceptance in a time when Europe was getting tired of religion and men were proposing new paths for life or to God. This was about the time New Thoughts, the movement that is today WoF, was beginning to depart from orthodox Christianity. The common theme in Nietzsche thoughts, New Thoughts and WOF, is that God is no longer needed. Man is now god of himself.

A simple Google on Niethzsche will reveals documents on him. Consider this one:

www.markb287.hubpages.com/hub/Nietzsche--Philosophy--and-the-Overman

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

INTRODUCTION

This is a disclaimer, if you become repulsed by what you are about to read,
the revulsion should not be directed at this thread
but rather be re-directed at WoF's direction
because this in every respect, is what JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) is, to WoF
and in every way, it also is how WoF teaches the JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine.

"The Distortion of the Cross" earlier examined really is a púššycát when compared with JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually doctrine)
"The Distortion of the Cross" is mellow and tamed here whereas JDS is over-the-top and wild

JDS à-la WoF doctrine is graphical, gory, dark, shady and sinister
WoF's version of event without a shadow of doubt is founded on something made up, dreamed up or learned incorrectly
Without a doubt "JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually" definitely is "The Distortion of the Cross" pumped up with steroids.

This doctrine like "The Distortion of the Cross" was widely actively taught by all in the WoF movement until recently,
the wiser ones in the movement have stopped actively teaching JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine,
however some in the Hagin camp and the Copelands still fervently believe and teach JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) à-la WoF

What is JDS doctrine à-la WoF?

The following are a few of what and/or how WoF teaches JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine:
1) That the physical death of Jesus on the Cross amounted to nothing
(i.e. that the blood He shed on the Cross was not a good enough price to atone for our sins)
1b) That Jesus paid for our sins on the Cross and in Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek)(note: only one individual in WoF taught this)
2) That when Jesus died spiritually on the Cross, He became a sinner (i.e. and He had Satan’s nature)
3) That the plan of redemption started after Jesus said “It is FINISHED”
4) That Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek) is the origin of sin
5) That Jesus stopped being God (i.e. the Son of God)
6) That Satan took Jesus' spirit, as a sinner to Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek) and He was held ransom there
(i.e. Satan has to be paid for Jesus' release)
7) That Jesus was reincarnated (i.e. He was reborn in another body) in Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek)
8') That for 3 days and 3 nights, Jesus was kept in Hell under punishment, mocked and tortured by Satan and demons for our sins
9) That the church was formed in Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek)

IF READNG ON PHONE, TO AVOID FLIPPING BACK AND FORTH,
A SEPARATE BIBLE IS ADVISED/NEEDED TO FOLLOW ALONG WITH THIS DISCUSSION

We are now going to examine a few exhibits showing what some in the WoF movement say/said
when teaching the JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine:



Kenneth Hagin states:
“…just as receiving eternal life means that we have the nature of God in us,
spiritual death means having Satan’s nature.”
(K. Hagin, Redeemed, Tulsa, OK, Faith Library, 1966, p.29)

“spiritual death means something more than separation from God.
Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature…
Jesus tasted death–spiritual death–for every man.”
(K. Hagin, The Name of Jesus, 1981 p.31)

Kenneth Hagin again states,
“He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man.
And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that?
PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS.
He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death.”
(How Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)

Kenneth Copeland saying:
“The plan of redemption BEGAN when Jesus said “It is FINISHED” (Classic Redemption, p.13)

“Jesus death on the cross was not enough to save us.”
(What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303), (Believer's Voice of Victory, September 1991)

“When Jesus cried “It is finished!” He was not speaking of the plan of redemption.
There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne.
He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant.
Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption”
(Kenneth Copeland, “Jesus – Our Lord of Glory”, ( Believer’s Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).

“… Jesus died two deaths. He died physically and He died spiritually.
When Jesus was made to be sin, He was separated from God…
When His blood poured out, it did not atone.
It did away with the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us…
Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God…”
(Kenneth Copeland doctrinal statement dated March 12, 1979)

“When His blood poured out it did not atone.”
(Kenneth Copeland: From a personal letter to D.R.McConnell, dated 12/3/79. Cited in A Different Gospel, p.120)

Jesus had to “accept the sin nature of Satan.”
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.)

“Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell”
(Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991 p.129.)

“He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell….
He allowed Himself to come under Satan’s control…
every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him….
They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived.
For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer.”
(Kenneth Copeland, “The Price of It All,” 3.)

Copeland again states:
“I can't understand Christians that refuse to believe that Jesus went to hell.
I want to tell you something if he didn't go, you're going to have to.”
(The Christian Channel Europe Believer's Voice of Victory May 1998)

“For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer.
Some people don’t want to believe that.
They want to believe that after His death, Jesus just stayed in that upper region of Sheol
that the Bible calls paradise, but they’re mistaken!
If He had simply stayed there, there would have been no price paid for sin.”
(Believer’s Voice of Victory, Vol. 19, No. 9, Sept. 1991)

“it must be preached because it's ... the Truth and it sets people free.”
“The day that Jesus was crucified, God's life, that eternal energy ..
moved out of Him and He allowed the devil to drag him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived..
[and] to come under Satan's control .. [or] His body would have never died. ...”
( Believer's Voice of Victory, quoted in Berean call September, 1991)

Copeland states:
“Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell.”
(What Happened From the Cross to the Throne)

”He was the first man to ever be born again from sin to the righteousness of God. Hallelujah !!!
(Copeland 24/09/97 video)

Charles Capp writes:
“Jesus was born again in the pit of hell. He was the firstborn, the first begotten, from the dead.
He started the Church of the firstborn in the gates of hell...
He went down to the gates and started His Church there....
The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of hell.”
(C.Capps, Authority in Three Worlds, op. cit. p.212-213)

Benny Hinn says:
“Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan.
Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by becoming one in nature with him.
You say, 'What did you say? What blasphemy is this?' No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin.
Sin is the nature of hell. Sin is what made Satan...It was sin that made Satan.
Jesus said, 'I'll be sin! I'll go to the lowest place! I'll go to the origin of it!
I won't just take part in it, I'll be the totality of it!' “
(Benny Hinn program, TBN, 12/15/90 )

Frederick K. C. Price saying:
“Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross?
If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price.
No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God...
Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound
and they threw a net over Jesus
and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence"
(Frederick K. C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger Newsletter, June 1990, p. 7)

Creflo Dollar saying:
“He’s got to look like a sinner. Or they’re not going to receive Him into hell, you’ve got to be a sinner.
He’s got to somehow look like that serpent on that stick in Moses’ day.
He’s got to look like a serpent in order to be taken in.
And Jesus who had never sinned, made an exchange with His covenant partner.
He says “Let Me wear your coat of sin. It’ll make Me look like a sinner.
I’ve never sinned, but if I can put your coat of sin on,
when I get back I’m going to give you my coat of righteousness.
So The bible says that He who had not sinned was made sin.
(Our Equality with God Through Righteousness 1/21/2001)

Creflo Dollar again saying:
“So now Jesus entered in legally into hell. But He was there illegally.
Because once you get to hell there’s got to be some record of your sin.
Now He had to stay there 3 days and 3 nights.
You better hope He went to hell because if He didn’t go you and I would have to.
You better hope He became every sickness, disease and depression
and every piece of mess in the world
because whatever He didn’t become you and I would have to become ”
(Our Equality with God Through Righteousness 1/21/2001)

Joyce Meyer writes quote:
“During that time he entered hell where you and I deserved to go because of our sin.
He paid the price there. No plan was too extreme. Jesus paid on the cross and in hell.”
(1991 Booklet called The Most Important Decision you Will Ever Make)

Joyce Meyer says:
“The Devil thought he had it, the devil thought he had won.
Oh they were having the biggest party that has ever been had.
They had my Jesus on the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing and he had become sin.
Don’t you think that God was pacing wanting to put a stop to what was going on.
All the hosts of hell were up on him, up on him, up on him. The angels are in agony, all the creation is groaning.
All the hosts of hell was up on him, up on him, they got on him.
They got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing
and mocking, “haha you trusted God and look where you ended up.
You thought he would save you and get you off that cross – he didn’t haha.”
(Jesus Tormented in Hell by Satan and Demons audio clip)

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting.
You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”
(1991 Booklet called The Most Important Decision you Will Ever Make)

Joyce Meyer writes:
“He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands,
at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore.
He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.”
(Jesus Became Sin and Died Spiritually and Ceased to be the Son of God on the Cross audio clip)

Joyce Meyer says again:
“And in Luke 23:43 “Jesus said unto him, “I say unto you today you shall be in paradise with me.
There is no punctuation in the original translations of the Bible.
We have punctuated it and in this particular scripture it was punctuated wrong.
They put in there I say unto you comma today you shall be in paradise with me.
Making it appear that the minute Jesus died on the cross he went straight to paradise.
No, no, no he did not. The way it should read is I say unto you today comma I am telling you this today.
Today I am telling you that you are going to be in paradise with me.
But he didn’t say you are going to be there today, he said I am telling you this today.”
(Misinterpretation of Luke 23:43 Joyce Meyer audio clip)



It is hoped that after reading all the submissions on F6: JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually),
we all (i.e. posters and readers) would have learned a thing or two, would have become wiser and be

- able to see what is JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) according to the WoF movement
- able to see a sample of who-is-who in WoF, taught JDS, how was JDS taught,
what was taught on JDS, where was JDS taught,
when was JDS taught and why was JDS taught this way (i.e. why taught in this manner Hebrews 10:29, Philippians 3:18)
- able to see all the errors and flaws in WoF's JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrinal version
(i.e. Colossians 2:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Luke 23:43)
- able to see what inspired this WoF's version of JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine
- able to see, in the true sense, what the CORRECT & REAL JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) is,
see where, how & when JDS (i.e Jesus Died Spiritually) happened
(i.e. from Wednesday noon - 3pm 3-hours darkness - Luke 23:44, the Greek word forsaken means left, abandoned me; Jesus' cry, "Why have you forsaken me?" - * Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, Psalm 22:1)
- able to see why and what the darkness was all about (i.e. Exodus 10:21-23, Exodus 30:10, Matthew 27:45, Luke 16:24, Luke 23:45 )
- able to CORRECTLY see where, how & when Jesus resurrected spiritually,
(i.e. John 19:28, John 19:30, into your hands comit my spirit Luke 23:46, 1 Peter 3:18, Rev. 1:18 )
- able to see, when Jesus died physically (i.e. on Wednesday 3pm or mid afternoon - Mark 15:37, Matthew 27:50-51 temple veil torn)
- able to see, when Jesus resurrected physically (i.e. on Sunday morning - Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, 1 Corinthians 15:4, Acts 2:31)
- able to see, that it is blood of Christ and His spiritual death on the cross
which provided:
redemption (i.e. Ephesians 1:7, 1 Peter 2:24, Hebrews 10:17-18, Col 2:13-14),
expiation/atonement (i.e. Hebrews 9:22, *2 Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 53:12)
propitiation (i.e. 1 John 2:2, Rom 3:19-20, Romans 3:25-26),
and reconciliation for every man (i.e. 1 Corinthians 2:2, Ephesians 2:13)
- able to see, that all things were accomplished and all ended at the cross (i.e. John 19:28)
- able to see that it took 3 hours of separation and not WoF's 3 days and 3 nights, to pay off the price for our sins.
- able to see how Jesus, not in hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek), but at the cross bruised the serpent's head
(i.e. John 19:17, Mark 15:22, Matthew 27:33, Luke 23:33)
- able to see some of Jesus' enduring experience or period (i.e. Psalm 69:21, Psalm 22:11-21, John 19:28 compare with Luke 16:23-24)
- able to see that Jesus was in Sheol (i.e. Hades in Greek) and not in Hell (i.e. Gehenna in Greek) according to WoF
(i.e. 1 Samuel 2:6, Psalm 141:7, Acts 2:27, John 19:28 compare with Luke 16:23-24)
- able to see that it is through Jesus' death (i.e. not His resurrection) on the cross that life came to us
(i.e. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29, Hebrews 9:7, Hebrews 9:15-16, Hebrews 9:26-28)
- able to see that as the old Passover lamb was a sacrifice for the ransom of the firstborn sons of Israel
so Jesus was the Passover Lamb, a ransom for all (i.e. Exodus 30:10, Matthew 20:28, 1 Timothy 2:6)
- able to see Jesus had no blemishes, no sin (i.e. Leviticus 22:20, 1 Peter 1:19)
- able to see when and where the church was formed (i.e. Acts 2:4)
- able to see that there are differences between Sheol/Hades, Gehenna (i.e. hell) and the lake of fire
(i.e. Luke 16:23, 25, Luke 23:43, Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Matthew 25:41, Rev. 1:18)

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

_^^^ What else can be said here.

No wonder nlmediator himself, a leading WOF adherent, distanced himself from JDS on the defunct thread.

While I can understand why they distort the cross, what's the need in making up all of these fables on JDS? Is it to appear as great teachers of the Word, or just plain mischief?

Apparently someone started the nonsense and the others just latched unto it uncritically.

Its so sad...

Image123:

It's apparently civil only because it is largely ignored by opposing views. i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice. I'm adding this passage to the mix.
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are 'angels' and not humans, I cant see how the posters on this thread can be reaping befor the time in opposition to what the master said.

You guys should please stop the misuse of scriptures, abeg.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]




BabaGnoni has given details of how WoF teaches on Jesus Died Spiritually. These include that Jesus took on the nature of Satan, was dragged to hell to be tormented of Satan, became re-created in spirit and born again. Here we will see how the Scripture portrayed the how and the what of Jesus’ death on the cross.


“Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” – John 1:29.

John the Baptist made this statement referring to Jesus. Here John refers to Jesus as ‘the lamb’. In this picture John hoped to vividly show Israel what Jesus represented. In particular Israel was to be immediately reminded of both the ‘Passover lamb’ and other lambs, usually males, used in the Levitical offerings.

The Levitical offerings foreshadowed the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. God specified in the offerings what were acceptable to Him. In particular the animal sacrifices were to be “without blemish”. In other words, without any defects – (cf. Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19).

In these offerings we see God sparing the guilty sinner and accepting a substitutionary sacrifice. Once the animals met God’s requirements they were acceptable to him as offering. Jesus Christ became our substitute like the animals were in the rituals for Israel.

Jesus personified the ‘male without blemish’ required in the ritual sacrifices, and offered himself to be judged for the sins of the world; "How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God” (Hebrews 9:14) See also Hebrews 10:1-14.

When Jesus was being judged for the sins of mankind he did not become less than perfect. In other words, He did not become less than “a lamb without blemish”. If that were so, he would be disqualified from being an offering that was “a sweet savour unto the Lord (cf.Leviticus 1:13).

Therefore Jesus did not take on a satanic nature at the cross. As the sin offering under the New Covenant he remained pure, righteous and holy on the cross.
• 1 Peter 3:18 – “For Christ also suffered once for sin, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death
in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”
• Hebrews 10:10 – “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”
• Colossians 1:21,22 – "And you, … …he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless
and above reproach before him”

None of the thieves on the cross could have satisfied God the Father’s requirement for a perfect sacrifice – none of them! The efficacy of any death in producing the result that will satisfy God depended on the fact that that life offering itself up in death MUST be “a lamb without blemish”. No other human being could qualify to be that. If that does not make you realize and appreciate the greatness of Christ’s work on your behalf, nothing will!

Just as God showed through the Levitical offerings under the Old Testament that an acceptable substitute had to be “without blemish”, Jesus Christ, the reality that the rituals represented, was a pure and holy offering under the New Covenant. At no time did he acquire a ‘nature’ that would have made him an unqualified sacrifice to God for humanity’s sin problem.

Also Satan DOES NOT LIVE IN ‘HELL’; not now, not yet. So a portrayal of physical hell as Satan’s abode for now has no support of Scripture. If he were in control there – in hell – that will contradict the fact that it is a place of punishment that God himself administers to the unregenerate. Would we assume than that God is in partnership with the Devil on this?

If what the Word of Faith proponents' claim regarding what Jesus became is true, then that would mean that Christ’s work on the cross was not effective. But that is not so because in the book Revelation when Apostle John wept he was calmed down and told [b]“… … Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals”[/b] (Rev. 5:5). In the subsequent verses we see who this ‘Lion of the tribe of Judah’ is; he is the one who was “slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God”(v.9). Jesus was a perfect sacrifice from the beginning to the end. At no time did he become imperfect then to later regain ‘perfection’.