Mr_Anony:

By God's Word, I mean exactly the same as God's Son.

If you agree that the Word became flesh i.e took on a human form, then I hold that the Word is the same as Christ i.e. Jesus Christ is the Word in human form.

If on the other hand, you say that the Son is not the same as the Word, then you will be saying that Christ is not the Word i.e. Christ is not the personification of God's Word but rather was spoken into existence (created by the Word)

As it stands here, It is either the Word became flesh and walked among us (Jesus Christ) and after His time on earth, went back to being eternal

frosbel:

Let me quote John 1 v14.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Jesus Christ is the word manifested in the FLESH





Christ is the personification of GOD's WORD



Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Hebrew 1:6

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

frosbel:
Let me quote John 1 v14.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Jesus Christ is the word manifested in the FLESH


Christ is the personification of GOD's WORD

Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Hebrew 1:6

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

frosbel:

Let me quote John 1 v14.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ is the word manifested in the FLESH

Christ is the personification of GOD's WORD

Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Hebrew 1:6

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

Goshen360:

First, I had to quote you because I will later use your words against you.

Second, Who is this "Word" that became flesh? What was he called in John 1:1-2? Your error is that you take Christ as literal or spoken word. If this is what you interpret, then you yourself can as well speak the literal God's word from the bible and let's see if it becomes flesh (human). The "W"ord with uppercase "W" is a name or title of Christ in heaven WITH GOD, which the NT calls the Father before the Father sent him into the world (earth).

Third, you just made a heretic statement that Jesus had beginning. This has constituted your recent attack that made you say he is NOT God. Let's start to test your statement with scriptures....I start with first scripture and you can explain to us how Jesus had beginning - Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

New Living Translation (©2007)
There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors--no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.

Now @ Frosbel, we will mind to tell us what you understand by this scripture

frosbel: Goshen and Enigma, can you kindly respond to this THREAD

I think it's quite arrogant of you to avoid the over 11 questions posed to you without one response in the last few days, and expect me to spend my precious time responding to your scriptural perceptions. Show some courage

Therefore forgive me , especially for the sake of time , if I only respond to Mr. Anony as I will be doing over the next few days.

Mr.Anony , let us continue tomorrow, a little late now for detailed response.

Thank You

italo:
Romans 9:5: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is GOD over all, forever praised! Amen.

Frosbel:  Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is NOT God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Who do you believe in? The Holy Spirit or Frosbel the Evil Spirit?

frosbel:

[size=15pt]Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.[/size]

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

Goshen360:

Third, you just made a heretic statement that Jesus had beginning. This has constituted your recent attack that made you say he is NOT God. Let's start to test your statement with scriptures....I start with first scripture and you can explain to us how Jesus had beginning - Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

Now @ Frosbel, we will mind to tell us what you understand by this scripture

Goshen360:



Frosbel, where are you ooooooooooooooooooo

Goshen360:



Frosbel, where are you ooooooooooooooooooo

brainpulse:

I always constrain myself not to reply him, with his interpretation of the scriptures. Although he says he interpretes the scriptures logically not spiritually.

frosbel:

I am at work

Allow me respond later this evening.

Peace !

Goshen360:

The word of God refutes and debunks Frosbel logically and using scriptures-to-explain scriptures. I'm in for him and with him, logically and scripturally.

Goshen360:

Okay. Me dey wait for you. By the way, that is first scripture refuting your "Jesus had a beginning and was created" theology. Still more to hit you in the evening according to how you respond.

frosbel:

Is this the same word of GOD that you and your cohorts can still not use to prove that GOD = 3

frosbel:
We ( Only ONE GOD Camp ) , have spent precious hours arguing and making our case from a unitarian standpoint, showing you dozens of scripture that debunk, nullify and totally rip apart the lie and fallacy called trinity , and you accuse us of dishonesty when you are yet to provide ONE , not TWO , just ONE scripture in the bible which depicts God as 3-persons.

Cherry picking and wrenching verses out of their intended context will , rather than bring you nearer to the truth, push you farther from it.

It is appalling and very deplorable when we call ourselves Christians and yet mislead others by believing in 3 gods and forcing them , mostly the innocent terrified sheelple , to abide by this mysterious confusion with the threat of eternal torment.

A 3 god god is polytheism and idolatry.

Moses did not think God was 3 and neither did Abraham or the prophets or the apostles and even Jesus.

Only catholic oriented trinitarians seem to stubbornly hold on to this myth !!

frosbel:


You seem not to understand this scripture , Jesus did have a mother, no ? and he also had a father , no ?

If yes to the above, then he had a beginning.

If no, you have denied scripture.

Anyway , like I said I want to do justice to this question at my own pace and in my own time , before the 'intellectually dishonest 'theologians ' try to twist my statements and or comments.

Goshen360:

There is nobody that will twist your statements. It's written down in black and white by you and was quoted. You are the one that should defend the statement you just made and clarify yourself. Maybe by the time you are able to answer that question, you will come to understand and possibly revert your thread/statement that JESUS is just a MERE MAN or HUMAN BEING, as per the other thread you started.

According to Jesus...

According to Jesus, God is strictly one Person, not three. Christians who value Jesus as the supreme revealer of truth should consider his classic words, uttered in a final prayer. "You, Father, are the only one who is truly God" (John 17:3). He defined salvation as belief in that One and only true God, and in himself as the Messiah (John 17:3).

It is a serious hijacking of the words of Jesus if one adds to Jesus' creed. For Jesus, his Father is "the one who alone is truly God, the only one who is truly God, the one true God" (see also John 5:44 and Mark 12:29).

Those utterances are more than clear. They are without a hint of ambiguity. Yet they have been abandoned by the church bearing the name of Jesus. The church has for centuries, since post-biblical times, defined God as three Persons. Jesus defined God as one Person, the Father. There is a very great difference. That difference calls for extensive rethinking and reform. We cannot risk fragmenting God. Jesus believed and taught strict unitary monotheism. He had never heard of the Trinity - or if he had he rejected it. So should his followers.

Centuries later, after church councils had invented iron-clad creeds and imposed them on the faithful, Augustine came face to face with Jesus' definition of God as the "only one who is truly God." What was he to do? The church by then had lost Jesus' creed. It propagated everywhere belief that God was three Persons. That innocent sentence in John 17:3 stated that God was a single Person, not three Persons. Here is Augustine's "solution." He wrote: "The proper order of the words is 'that they may know You and Jesus Christ, the only true God'" (Homilies on John).

One can have the words of Jesus on this great issue, or the words of the post-biblical creeds. It is hard to see how one can have both at the same time. Following Jesus means believing his teachings. Jesus' teaching about how many Persons are the One God is really not difficult: "You, Father, are the only true God." Jesus is the Lord Messiah (Luke 2:11; Ps. 110:1), the Son of God (Matt. 16:16), but not the One True God. The word "one" should be clear to all.

If anyone has any question about this, let him consult the thousands upon thousands of singular personal pronouns used for God in the Bible. "I," "Me," "Mine," "Myself," "Thee," "Thy," "Thine," "Thyself," "He," "Him," "His," "Himself." All these words, as well as God's proper name Yahweh followed by singular verbs (6700 times), ought to convince the open-minded that God is one Person, not more. And monotheism - belief that God is one - is, according to Jesus, of critical importance (Mark 12:29).

Jesus, the Son of God, is the perfect human reflection of the One God, his Father. But he is not God. He is the sinless second Adam and the "prophet to be raised up from the house of Israel" (Deut. 18:15-18). Created and begotten in the womb of his mother under the power of God's spirit, he is designated "Son of God" (Luke 1:35). The idea that he is "eternally begotten" not only has no recognizable meaning in language, but it is false to Scripture. "Eternal generation" contradicts the important biblical fact that the Son of God was begotten "today," not in eternity (Ps. 2:7; cp. Acts 13:33, referring in the latter text to the birth of Jesus.

http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/according.htm

frosbel:

Jesus was a Human Being with a divine beginning through the seed planted in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of GOD.

frosbel:

Let me quote John 1 v14.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Christ is the personification of GOD's WORD

Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Hebrew 1:6

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

frosbel:
[size=15pt]No one has ever disputed his divinity[/size] , appears you guys have some misunderstanding.

frosbel:

WRONG !!

[size=20pt]Christ is NOT GOD[/size] my Catholic Pal.

frosbel:

Divinity comes from GOD and through his Spirit , all born again believers share in this divine nature if they are born again and they become ONE with Christ and GOD which btw does not make them GOD.

Goshen360:

Frosbel, how do you reconcile your statements above and your statement below?



If someone according to John 1:1-2 was called Word and also called God and still under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says "He" was with God in the beginning being called God in verse one. How then does such have beginning All your heretic thread to deny the deity of Christ will all be punctured by your own statements. Here again you said,

"If anyone has any question about this, let him consult the thousands upon thousands of singular personal pronouns used for God in the Bible. "I," "Me," "Mine," "Myself," "Thee," "Thy," "Thine," "Thyself," "He," "Him," "His," "Himself." All these words, as well as God's proper name Yahweh followed by singular verbs (6700 times), ought to convince the open-minded that God is one Person, not more. And monotheism - belief that God is one - is, according to Jesus, of critical importance (Mark 12:29)"......culled from your article up there.

The bible is very consistent. You Frosbel are one not consistent and this is probably due to your hatred for the Catholic sect.

With all evidence in scripture, when the plural words are mentioned the following verb is singular. What does that mean? ONE God cannot be refering to himself as "us" and then the following verb is singular. This mean what one does, it is taken as all did the verb. For instance,

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,.....Genesis 1:26

AND the pronoun plus the verb following in verse 27 is singular......"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them"

What does that teach and reveal to us How can God in creation refer to NUMERIC one as "us" and come back in verse 27 to refer to the "us" and "our" as "his" and "he". This teaches us that the being that is involved in creation is called God, Elohim in plural and creation is attributed to the Father as in Acts 4:24,

Creation is also attributed to Jesus Christ as in Colossians 1:15-17,

New International Version (©1984)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

italo: @ Frosbel and Ijawkid. Let me ask you a few simple questions that pertain to what we are discussing:

Were all things created in Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.

Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end?"

ijawkid:

Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative work....while Jesus became Yahwehs agent through which all other things and persons were created.....

U doubt??......

Mr_Anony:
Ok good, so you agree that the Word was with God from the beginning. In other words, it is the same person, all that happened was that He took on another form i.e. the form of a man.
So I am right in saying that the Son (also known as the Word) has been existing from the begining.

Now my question to you is: Do you agree that the Word is eternal (i.e. has neither beginning nor end)?

If you agree that the Word exists eternally, then my next question would be: doesn't this mean that the Word is God? (remember that God by definition is the One who is from everlasting to everlasting)

If you disagree that the Word is eternal, then you will have to show us from scripture where God created the Word (i.e where the Word came into existence) or where the scripture hints that the Word can be destroyed (or cease to exist).

frosbel:

God's WORD which he used to create the world has always been with him as his WORD , not a being.



Indeed as GOD is eternal with neither beginning nor end , so is his WORD.



I am assuming by WORD you mean WORD in the actual sense, in which case I concur.



God's WORD is eternal.

frosbel: Indeed as GOD is eternal with neither beginning nor end , so is his WORD.

frosbel: I am assuming by WORD you mean WORD in the actual sense, in which case I concur.

frosbel:
God's WORD is eternal

Enigma: @ Mr Anony

Sorry for butting in (and hope I do not derail the discussion) but the following questions are "asking to be asked" following our friend's posts!

God's "Word" is "Word" in the actual sense"!

God's "Word" became flesh ---- in Jesus, as I understand our friend.

OK then:

When God's "Word" had become flesh in Jesus, did God have any other "Word" or "Words"?

During Jesus' baptism (when Jesus was already God's "Word" in the flesh) God was heard saying "words" "This is my beloved Son etc": are these "words" of God "words in the actual sense"? Are these God's "words" different from God's "Word"?

If God's "Word" had already become flesh, how and where did God then find another "word" or other "words" to speak afterwards?

frosbel:

You are quite confused.

The WORD was with GOD from the beginning not a being.

But let us for argument sake assume that this BEING was with GOD from the beginning, please help me with the following questions :

1. If this being was GOD and he died, does this not contradict God's immortality

2. iF this being was GOD and he was tempted , does this not contradict the word of God which says GOD cannot be tempted.

"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone "- James 1:13

3. Why did the fallen angels refer to Jesus as Son of GOD and not GOD , surely the bible says the demons believe there is one GOD and tremble, if this was GOD they would have said so, no ?

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror - James 2:19

4. Why did GOD or should we say Jesus say the Father was greater than HIM

5. Are you also willingly to consider the following verses in John 1 :

v14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
v18 - No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
v20 - He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
v25 - They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
v34 - And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."
v41 - He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ).
v45 - Philip found Nathan'a-el, and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
v49 - Nathan'a-el answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
v50 - Jesus answered him, "Because I said to you, I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these."



I have enumerated a few verses in the same chapter just to make a small point.

John referred to Jesus as the Lamb of GOD and the Son of GOD
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of MAN
Peter referred to Jesus as the Messiah
Nathaniel referred to Jesus as the Son of GOD



Are you guys really this blind, not to understand the implications of all these statements, or should we throw them all away to support your Pagan trinity of 3 gods ?




God is ONE PERSON , good.

Even an elementary school pupil knows what singular pronouns are and what they stand for , no ?

To therefore derive a 3-person personality from this ONE is plain foolishness and the epitome of confusion.





I hate the catholic institution NOT the catholic people, 1/2 of my family are catholic - thank you again for your misrepresentation of facts !




You do not know what you are talking about.

Let 'US' cannot be used as evidence to prove that this was JESUS and even if it was , where was the Holy Spirit , I thought you said they are three ?

How you can presumptuously suggest that 'US' means three , is even more bewildering that 1+1+1 = 1


Also , have you forgotten v27 which goes :

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. " - Genesis 1:27

Surely you are not attempting to erroneously say that the singular pronouns in this passages mean a plurality ?



Elohim also refers to angels, I hope you know that , do your homework MAN.

Your quotation of Acts 4:24 is REDUNDANT , as this verse clearly says that GOD , ONE GOD , made everything.

When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, " you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them - Acts 4:24



This is the actual quotation :

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Do you jump to conclusions or do you meditate on these passages ?

- The SON is the image of GOD , not GOD
- FirstBORN denotes beginning
- All things were created through HIM brings us back to John 1 , the WORD of GOD

You are running on flat tires my friend and your point is that you have no point.


GOD is ONE.


Listen to what your GOD Jesus said :

Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD - Mark 12:29


Trinitarians have no shame and surely no problems lying and misrepresenting Jesus.

Jesus says God is ONE, Trinitarians say NO Jesus , he is 3 and you are part of this 3

SMH

truthislight:

*sigh*


ropping ones self it seems to me

and this

*sigh* again.

frosbel:

You are quite confused.

frosbel:

The WORD was with GOD from the beginning [size=20pt]not a being.[/size]