theunusualmoon:

.......
Assumptions about who theunusualmoon is and what he believes.

Ohhh... Forgive me then

frank317:


Ohhh... Forgive me then

........
But just incase you're wondering, I believe in GOD.

FOLYKAZE:


Have you seen me talking about greek Gods once? I know very little about them so I choose to stick to only that which I know.

I just added Ogun to my last post ke?

Mr, Yoruba understand nature and explain it to their own understanding. You know my position and that I will always stand on it. The deities IS the samething as the essence it represent.

I guess an answer to my questions will provide better understanding to you.

How is Ogun the onija ole different from the sword drives into the heart of robbers victim?

How is the Ogun bone moulder different from Calcium?

How the Ogun the blood sucker different from the sharp metalic object that cuts the skin?

Let me add Sanponna, how can you separate it from chicken pox?

This is the third time I will be asking this question without an answer coming from you.

So Mr Macof, the line is draw. Fall in sir.

You once spoke of Gaia. .trying to force her on someone earlier on this thread. . U also spoke of Ra

You just started with Ogun.

Wait! Let's take this step by step.
1st You should know that Spirituality is deep, nd even more with yoruba that make reference to historical characters as they speak of Spirits
Sometimes historical events make up the myths surrounding these Spirits such that produces a Deity. Take Sango who is the myth surrounding Arira (the spirit of lightning), or Osun surrounding Olomitutu(spirit of fresh water), or Obatala for Olu-iwaye , Oduduwa for Olofin Otete

2nd, lemme leave out Greeks now. ..
Elemental/Natural Spirits/Energy are Imole
Deity is Orisa.
But the logic behind the word "orisa" is different from that of "deity"...understandably due to their different cultural background.
Orisa refers to an entity (including humans, objects) that is considered special/unique/important. .hence you have "Ko si Orisa bi Iya" no deity like mothers, Great ancestors like Obatala, Ogun, Sango, Esu, Oduduwa, Orunmila are Orisa
These people are remembered for their contributions to life and celebrated during festivals. The mouth we use in eating is an Orisa. Opele that Awo use to divine is an Orisha. In today's world Phone is an orisa. The face/eyes is an Orisha. Money is Orisa
These things are all venerated ...hence A bo orisa
Veneration of Orisa

I've already explained the logic behind the word "deity" earlier. However the ancient Europeans treat a deity the same way Yoruba treat orisa..and that is with veneration




Imole are spirits, Energy. ..not exactly energy talked about in physics...that's "Ase" . . People misunderstand what "Spirit" really is.
Spirits/Imole are incorporeal entities that develop the Natural world, they are the actors behind Reality.
They are pure and free energy

3rd, All material objects have their Ase, this Ase is the integral part of the object. Metallic objects have their Ase...This Ase belongs to Ogun and all Ase in Iron is part of Ogun. Ogun constructed Iron but Iron is not Ogun.
when yoruba call Iron by the word "Irin" we are not mad.. we know exactly what we are doing. It's not madness or confusion that drove yoruba to call river "odo" yet the one who constructed the river is known by another name

Yoruba say that Olodumare(who is also an Imole) gave his Ase to other Imoles, it's the Ase that makes the Imole active(infact that makes them exist at all) .. its the Ase that the Imole like Ogun use to put the natural world(Iwarun) into shape
How then can you reach the Imole if not through their Ase in the material objects?

Ogun is not calcium, calcium is just one of the many important things Ogun gives to the world

Just like Sango is not lightning but the source of source of it

theunusualmoon:

........
Wow,so we have moved from GOD exists or not into "accidents are perfectly natural.they don't exist". I guess you chose to tow this line in a bid to defend the big bang theory(which I don't believe in) being itself a natural process and not an accident. Ok let's see. How about the stuff that happened to michael shumacher while he was skiing,what do we call that?
And how about paul walker's death?

If you break down the elements involved in the mishap, every requirement was met according to the needs of nature.

Paul Walker was a passenger in a vehicle that costs half a million dollars. The car is well known for being difficult to handle. Speed, car with difficult handling, potentially drunk driver, 8 lane paved street, everything was present.

Those things are only accidents because they weren't PLANNED in advance. But from the point of few of nature, it was. Anyone who repeats the scenario with those exacts parameters and conditions, will meet the same fate. It's like adding 2+2.

Whenever Messi scores a goal, or Lebron puts up 35, those moments don't represent accidents. This is true in spite of the fact that the goals were not planned in advance.

What makes it an accident is the assumed preconceived intention of the subject. But from the point of view of nature, Paul Walker's accident consisted of all the NECESSARY and sufficient requirements. Even his own height and weight were necessary elements. Some people survive worse vehicular collisions? Why is that?

Weah96:



If you break down the elements involved in the mishap, every requirement was met according to the needs of nature.

Paul Walker was a passenger in a vehicle that costs half a million dollars. The car is well known for being difficult to handle. Speed, car with difficult handling, potentially drunk driver, 8 lane paved street, everything was present.

Those things are only accidents because they weren't PLANNED in advance. But from the point of few of nature, it was. Anyone who repeats the scenario with those exacts parameters and conditions, will meet the same fate. It's like adding 2+2.

Whenever Messi scores a goal, or Lebron puts up 35, those moments don't represent accidents. This is true in spite of the fact that the goals were not planned in advance.

What makes it an accident is the assumed preconceived intention of the subject. But from the point of view of nature, Paul Walker's accident consisted of all the NECESSARY and sufficient requirements. Even his own height and weight were necessary elements. Some people survive worse vehicular collisions? Why is that?

You evaded my question session.I hope all is well.

Eddlad:



You evaded my question session.I hope all is well.

Missed it, not evaded. What was your question again?

macof:


A bo orisa - one that venerate Orisa

This begs the question, what is an Orisa? Is it the concept of a remote and universal divinity of the likes of Thor and Allah, or is it more new age like one's own CHI or something?

Weah96:


Missed it, not evaded. What was your question again?

You implied the big bang is evident and one can gather that the planets and outer bodies are in expanditory motion.
My question is why then do we have some bodies orbiting others?

Eddlad:


No, I understand that mercury would move way from this epicenter at a much less velocity as opposed to earth, what I dont understand is how this explosion could cause some bodies to be revolving around others,how does this explosion cause a circular motion.

Empty space is not empty. It's like a woman's wrapper, and can bend depending on the mass of the object occupying it. The heavier the object, the more the impact it has on the space it occupies.

Keeping this in mind, is it so unusual to accept that the sheer force from such an event could result in the alignments we see today?

Fill up a balloon with water, and slam it against a wall. The water will collect together neatly provided the surface on which it spills has the required property.

In this case, the property of the space resulting from the explosion didn't behave towards those heavy masses as we know space to behave here on earth.

The formations we see in the cosmic bodies were not done for the sake of beauty and aethestics. They were necessary arrangements mandated by the nature of all the elements involved.

Beautiful things can come out of chaos, just look at the process of childbirth. If an ignorant alien were to be present during a human childbirth, they would find it hard to expect any orderly, or beautiful thing to emerge out of that gory mess of a hole.

But Megan Good was born that way, and I still have a crush on her today.

@weah69
It's good to know you have a crush on meagan good(her beauty couldn't have been accidental) and that leads me to my next question though you havn't answered any even when they required only yes or no.

At some point in time you must have looked a certain lady in the eyes and whispered those magic words :I love you.

you cannot see love,touch love or hear love,so can you tell me why you believe love(or crush) exists?

macof:

You once spoke of Gaia. .trying to force her on someone earlier on this thread. . U also spoke of Ra

You just started with Ogun.

Wait! Let's take this step by step.
1st You should know that Spirituality is deep, nd even more with yoruba that make reference to historical characters as they speak of Spirits
Sometimes historical events make up the myths surrounding these Spirits such that produces a Deity. Take Sango who is the myth surrounding Arira (the spirit of lightning), or Osun surrounding Olomitutu(spirit of fresh water), or Obatala for Olu-iwaye , Oduduwa for Olofin Otete

2nd, lemme leave out Greeks now. ..
Elemental/Natural Spirits/Energy are Imole
Deity is Orisa.
But the logic behind the word "orisa" is different from that of "deity"...understandably due to their different cultural background.
Orisa refers to an entity (including humans, objects) that is considered special/unique/important. .hence you have "Ko si Orisa bi Iya" no deity like mothers, Great ancestors like Obatala, Ogun, Sango, Esu, Oduduwa, Orunmila are Orisa
These people are remembered for their contributions to life and celebrated during festivals. The mouth we use in eating is an Orisa. Opele that Awo use to divine is an Orisha. In today's world Phone is an orisa. The face/eyes is an Orisha. Money is Orisa
These things are all venerated ...hence A bo orisa
Veneration of Orisa

I've already explained the logic behind the word "deity" earlier. However the ancient Europeans treat a deity the same way Yoruba treat orisa..and that is with veneration




Imole are spirits, Energy. ..not exactly energy talked about in physics...that's "Ase" . . People misunderstand what "Spirit" really is.
Spirits/Imole are incorporeal entities that develop the Natural world, they are the actors behind Reality.
They are pure and free energy

3rd, All material objects have their Ase, this Ase is the integral part of the object. Metallic objects have their Ase...This Ase belongs to Ogun and all Ase in Iron is part of Ogun. Ogun constructed Iron but Iron is not Ogun.
when yoruba call Iron by the word "Irin" we are not mad.. we know exactly what we are doing. It's not madness or confusion that drove yoruba to call river "odo" yet the one who constructed the river is known by another name

Yoruba say that Olodumare(who is also an Imole) gave his Ase to other Imoles, it's the Ase that makes the Imole active(infact that makes them exist at all) .. its the Ase that the Imole like Ogun use to put the natural world(Iwarun) into shape
How then can you reach the Imole if not through their Ase in the material objects?

Ogun is not calcium, calcium is just one of the many important things Ogun gives to the world

Just like Sango is not lightning but the source of source of it

I so much appreciate your detailed reply. Reading through it got me having a loud laugh. This post contains facts but not very absolute. The first page, second and fairly on the thirs contain some truth while the whole remaining rest is falacy and wrong. All the way, kudos bro.

On this thread, alot have been discussed. Nothing can be said about pantheism which is one of those things we discussed without mentioning Gaia and Mother Nature. These two are pantheistic Gods though many religion, especially Hinduism and some African religions have employ it. Since the thread is about God without a definite concept, I have no other option than to bring pantheistic Gods when needed to support my argument. In all fairness, this is not relating to forcing those Gods on anyone. Ra as paganistic and Astrolaristic it is having the nature of Pantheistic God. Weah96 admitted Mother earth is God and Plaetton too admitted Ra is a god that should be revered. In Pantheism, God is a metaphor or poetic synonyms for the laws of the universe. Gaia or Ra is just another name for Earth and Sun

On the case of Ogun which I brought in in your case, I always put Yoruba spiritualism into the nets of Naturalistic Pantheism. Nevertheless, we can understand ourselves better with that.


1. I understand that Yoruba spirituality has a lot of essense emboldened in it. I will like to inform you that this essense is more than History. There are lots of Moral, Cosmological, Romantic, Poetry, legendary essense that made up every stories of an Orisha. Like I explained on this link https://www.nairaland.com/1447731/renounce-atheism-agnosticism/5#18327019, the Human named after Orisha were vessels which the orisha manifest itself. On Sango the human and energy I said "Sango the man is a vessel allowing the ase (energy) of sango to manifest as sango allowed. Using lightening to do so..... sango the man did greater things using/manifesting sango ase and when he dies, he rejoins his source and becomes a form of sango". The Gods are wise.

2. Irunmole the primodial energies. Everything that exist according to the Yorubas is alive and very conscious. Consciousness to us is Ori while those we collectively or individually venerate is Orisha. Ori is an individual deity meaning every entity has Ori and are Gods. Orisha simply mean selected consiousness. I think I explain it here https://www.nairaland.com/1815402/all-aborisha#24732743 an Orisha is a selected consciousness within the great consciousness which makes infinite possibilities known as ELEDUMARE. In Yoruba spirituality, everything in the universe is alive and conscious. This means there are many ORI including that of ours and much recognition is given to some SHA (selected ones), therefore engagement with Orisha practise can stand. As it is known, the ancient tends to view natural forces, elements and the consciousness as a person or Gods which give rises to Personification of water, human, trees, and every other entities around us as God or person.

Personalized entity is the samething as that which is personalized. In this sense, Ra in the pantheism is a metaphoric or poetic meaning of refering to Sun out of respect. Gaia is the name given to a respected earth. This is the metaphor which directs no where but to that entity which it represent.

3. Everything has it Ashe. True that. This is where fact ends in your reply. Irin is a common word for Iron but it is Ogun in the spiritual circle. The same way Ekuro is the common word for Palm kernel but it is Ikin in the spiritual sense. That a palm tree is Ope to you is Ifa to Babalawo. That Arira is Flashing lightning to you is Sango to Awo. The gods are the samething as what they represent.

Tell me who Ifa is here pls:

Ifa lo fun mi lowo gbale. Ifa lo fu mi lepo ti mo mu jesu. Ohun Ifa se fun mi mo me ni gbagbe.

(I will post the complete verse when I get my hand on Oju Odu at work tomorrow)

Ifa there is the same Orumila. Ifa in that verse is Ope (palm tree). Now tell me Orunmila the deity is not Palm tree a natural tree.

And again, your Ori is a deity judging from the saying Ori eni ni Orisha eni. What is your Ori if it is not the natural you? Macof you are a mere man to some people but a Deity to those who understand the concept of Ori. Ori the deity is the samething as the natural you.

Sango is Arira. Arira is light and fire that flashes in the sky. This is basically lightning flash and stroke. This is lightning. This is Arira. This is Sango.

In my Odu Merindinlogun of Wande Abimbola, there is a verse there that said arira ki n pa igi ise, Arira ti se jakuta be larin ota. We both know that Jakuta is Sango. Jakuta is Arira and Arira is Lightning which mean Sango the deity is lightning.

I dont even need to break down Jakuta here. No human throws the thunderstone except Thunder which is still Sango.



I will advise you to stop taking too much ogogoro. It makez you eat your own vomit. It is more than a year so maybe you have simply forgotten that you said these thing:

as Folykaze has explained before, Sango is the potential Electric charges which are convert to form Electricity, lightening, thunder etc.

https://www.nairaland.com/1556154/sango-electrical-energy.a-debate-btw/1#20238134


Igbagbe lo n se e

[b]Hydrogen (H) Is the lightest element and the primordial source of water(H2O), it is the most abundant element force in the universe. Yoruba spirituality personified this as Yemoja.

2. Helium (He) is the 2nd most abundant element force in the universe, existing mainly as gas(except in extreme conditions). Helium is rare in the Earth's atmosphere with traces of it trapped in other noble gases. (I am still trying to understand this element but for now I see this to be Aganju)

3. Lithium (Li) a soft, silver-like metallic substance, it is the lightest metal element and the primordial source of Iron material. it is present in all organism as Lithium ion. Traces of it is said to have been present during the big bang. Yoruba personified this as Ogun. (Yoruba creation story attributes Ogun to be the forger of the silver chain)

4. Solar wind is a term for the elements of nobel gases captured within the Sun's atmosphere. These elements can be free from the Sun's gravity with time and consists of Oxygen and Carbon. (this Yoruba spirituality personified as Orungan)[/b]

https://www.nairaland.com/1577497/god-science#20628009

I dont want tobgo foreign but pls let me bring in Venus here. Venus is a roman god and also a planet. Both of this identity indicates Venus is a morning star. Therefore Venus the planet is the Venus the Deity. This is simple.


A brother you are to me. We have learnt alot of things from each other and, I respect you so much. What I pointed out above has been my stance for a very long time. I am not confused as you think but just that Folykaze is a guy that doesnt mix things for pleasing some guys.

Conclusively, there is nothing like God in existence expect that which is called God. Anything can be called God. Any essense can be metaphorised as God. This God might have all human attribute. All the same, the God is still the entity which is deifed.

Well Folykaze good luck. I have learnt how to not make assumptions regarding Isese
My advice for u is to do likewise... modern science is far behind Isese in the knowledge of the Energies surrounding the earth so there's no need to be fixated on using mordern scientific theories to validate Isese

Btw Arira is not lightening, Monamona is

And another thing, Imole are said to come from Orun where they dwell, they come do what they have to and go back. Metal doesn't do that but Ogun does

macof:
Well Folykaze good luck. I have learnt how to not make assumptions regarding Isese
My advice for u is to do likewise... modern science is far behind Isese in the knowledge of the Energies surrounding the earth so there's no need to be fixated on using mordern scientific theories to validate Isese

Btw Arira is not lightening, Monamona is

And another thing, Imole are said to come from Orun where they dwell, they come do what they have to and go back. Metal doesn't do that but Ogun does

Oga goodnight. Tomorrow abeg.

theunusualmoon:
@weah69
It's good to know you have a crush on meagan good(her beauty couldn't have been accidental) and that leads me to my next question though you havn't answered any even when they required only yes or no.

At some point in time you must have looked a certain lady in the eyes and whispered those magic words :I love you.

you cannot see love,touch love or hear love,so can you tell me why you believe love(or crush) exists?

Believe love?
When someone is in love his brain responds in a particular way when he sees or think of the object of affection. This has nothing to do with believe, its a bodily reaction and we call that reaction love.
Why compare God to love... Is God a feeling? Is God a reaction? I think you guys need to really tell yourself what Gos really is and understand it or him before preaching him into others.

theunusualmoon:
@weah69
It's good to know you have a crush on meagan good(her beauty couldn't have been accidental) and that leads me to my next question though you havn't answered any even when they required only yes or no.

At some point in time you must have looked a certain lady in the eyes and whispered those magic words :I love you.

you cannot see love,touch love or hear love,so can you tell me why you believe love(or crush) exists?

To quote Sigmund Freud, "one is very crazy when in love."

Love can be measured with an MRI, and the same parts will light up every time. The experience can be replicated over and over, even in the body of the doubting skeptic. Science has already analyzed the physiology of it. So it's not this esoteric thing that you make it out to be

I come from the Freudian school of thought, even though our increasingly politically correct society have largely dismissed his sharp observations and research.
Freud proposed that life was really about sex and work. Love is the engine that keeps that life running.

Weah96:


To quote Sigmund Freud, "one is very crazy when in love."

Love can be measured with an MRI, and the same parts will light up every time. The experience can be replicated over and over, even in the body of the doubting skeptic. Science has already analyzed the physiology of it. So it's not this esoteric thing that you make it out to be

I come from the Freudian school of thought, even though our increasingly politically correct society have largely dismissed his sharp observations and research.
Freud proposed that life was really about sex and work. Love is the engine that keeps that life running.

Well, I guess megan good limited the horizons. It's not only about loving your wife.you love your mother,brothers etc. And on these occassions sex don't come in.and it's not only about love...people feel hate,jealousy,lust,etc.(And no one can see all this but we believe it exists because we can feel it) Mr frank and yourself have talked about the brain interpreting this feelings and classifying them but that's the same thing those who believe in GOD say: they feel GOD's presence. They connect with a force they percieve to be extra-ordinary. Just like you can't control yourself or really explain the feelings that come over you when megan good walks into the room.
@frank317

@ Macof.

Good morning chief. I think we need to clarify somethings. Some years back, you were supporting the Motion that a deity is the samething as what it represent. It is two years ago now when you created a thread explaining in details the scientific and naturalistic essense of Orisha whereby you pointed out that they are one. There is even a debate raised by Reginus a year ago where you opening agreed thaat Sango is an electical energy. This debate was borne out of the heated argument between atheists who see Deity as the guyhiding behing the wind and the deity I tried to explain it pure energy. You were there and supported the motion that these Gods are natural elements which buttress the understanding of the universe and natural world by our ancestors. They express themselves through metaphor though I will agree there is more to it. But what I seem not to understand is how you changed this view overtime. What makes you change view? Are you in essence saying you were wrong then and right now? Why do you think your stance then is wrong? Do you see more to natural elements these deities represent? Why dont you share it? Yes I agree there is more to it because I view those Gods from NaturalistiC/Scientific Pantheism angle. To Pagan9ja and you, I believe there is more to it. But I dont need this because I believe there is a naturalistic explanation to all these. This is what I stand for. All the same, I still have interest to know the reason why you changed position.

I promised to add some Ese Ifa right?

Here is that of Orunmila been equated to Palm tree:

Obara Meji

Orunmila, Ifa, mo ni o di oniran iran;
Iraan wa ni i sawo,
A dia fun Ope
Ti yoo maa la taara bi oba ereke.
Igbago, enii mi ni ose;
Imo Ope, eni mi ni o se.
Orunmila, Ifa l'o fun mi lowo gbale;
Ifa l'o fun mi lepo mu jesu;
Orunmila l'o fun mi ni adi bu soju,
Ifa, ji ki o waa fomuu re bo mi lenu
Bi oniponponpon ba tan inaa tie,
Ori Omoo re ni gbe e e le.
Erigi Alo, wa ki o waa sola
Sile emi Folykaze
Babaa mi, Erigi Alo
Wa dandan ki o waa sola
S'ile Macof.

Lol Ashe wa.

My phone cannot 'to ami ohun' in my words. So I will translate only the bold.

Translate:

Palm frond, it is Mat
Orunmila, Ifa, gives me broom to sweep
Ifa gives me palm oil to eat yam
Ifa gives me oil I cream my face with
Ifa, come and put your breast in my mouth.

In these verse, Ifa is said to produce broom, palm oil and cream. Ifa is even regarded to as woman with breast. The breast here is Emu ope (Palm wine).

We all know these are produces of Palm tree. Hence, Ifa is Ope is Orunmila.

Another pointer is in Oturuupon meji;

E waa wo'fa awo ki,
B'o ti n se.
Ifa de, alase
Ebora, abise;
Ope, abise wara

Ifa here is Ebora and also Ope (Palm tree)

Ifa is sometimes called Ela and Agbonmiregun. I wont argue that these two has anything to do with Ope (palm tree). But in essense, Ifa, Ope abise is the samething as saying Ifa is palm tree.


Now let me move to Arira ti n se Sango omo Oranyan.

Ifa tell us something about it in Okanran Meji;

Patambole okitibiti.
A dia fun Arira gagaaga
Eyi ti i s'omo Oraanyan l'Oko.
Nigba ti Sango n be laarin Osiiri,
Ti Olubanbi n be laarin Ota
N'je kin l'Arira fi sete?
Igba Ota (edun ara).
Igba Ota l'Arira fi sete
Igba Ota (two hundred thunder stone).

Notice the bold. Arira is the son of Oraayan in Oko village. Arira is Sango who goes with the name Olubanbi. Monamona is the common name for lightning but Ifa call it Arira. Arira gagaaga is simply Lightning strike or flash.

Here is it [img]www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/lightning/lightning-picture-1.jpg[/img]


This is what I got from the Oyeku Efun FB page:

Elemona lawo inu igbo
Elemona lawo odan
Dia fun Orunmila
Ifa nbe laarin ota
Ifa nfi ojoojumo kominu ogun
Ebo ni won ni ko waa se
O gb’ebo, o ru’bo
Orunmila lo di Arira-gaga
Ni Arira-gaga
Arira-gagaaga, Sango surewa o wa gba mi lowo ajogun
Arira-gagaaga


Translation

Elemona is the awo of the forest
Elemona of the plain
Ifa’s message for Orunmila
When he was in the midst of enemies
And was contemplating the problem of crises everyday
He was advised to offer ebo
He complied
Orunmila declared that it is a matter of thunder strike
And I respond that it is a matter of thunder strike
Thunder strike Sango please rush here to protect me of enemies

The bold shows that Arira is lightning strike or flash and it is Sango.

In Okanran meji;

Ifa kilo fun Sango,
Ifa kilo fun Arira pe
Ko gbodo ba awon omo oun ja.
O ya enu koto,
Orin awo ni n ko.
O dowoo re, Arira
Ile awo dowoo re, Sango
Afi eke o,
Afi Odale;
Bi Sango ba pawo,
Ile l'o da.
Afeke o
Afodale,
Arira o gbo do pawo.

This verse indicates that Arira is Sango. This implies that Sango is the samething as lightning flash.

I remember my friend dad who happens to be Babalawo asked me to bring aweda. I was looking around for Aweda without knowing that it is Ewe lapalapa. In the spiritual circle, this leaf is called ewe Iyalode. Anyway I am Ogberi so i am not expected to know.

That lightning is called monamona does not mean it can not be called Arira


We need to bring it down to Ogun lakaye Osinmole and why I think Ogun is a metalic element.

Excerpt of Oriki Ogun;

Meje ni ire,
Meje Loogun
Ogun Alara ni je Aja
Ogun oni gbajamo, irun ori ni je,
Ogun gbenagbena amu eje
Ogun Elemona, Oje igi ni mu
Ogun onikola, aje igbin
Ogun korakora ni je ekuru funfun,
ogun onire, agba Agbo,
Bi e ba gunyan nile, efi toogun sile,
Bi e ba rooka nile, efi toogun sile,
Nitori ogun lo roko,
Ogun lo pa ajuba

Notice how Ogun is described in seven ways.

1. Ogun is eats dog. Here like mu mum do lash me then for eating too much. She used to say I eat like Ogun. Here she explained that Ogun is the knife she holds. She implies that knife eats everything it cuts. Therefore the cutting of Dog with Ogun here symbolize it is metal.

2. Ogun eat hair. Ogun gbajamo mean barber. Those who barb do their job with Ogun. The process of Ogun cutting hair is the samething as eating hair. Here again Ogun is metal.

3. Ogun drinks sap. This Ogun is described with craft work. Agbegilere is the samething as gbenagbena which mean craft men. They do their job by using Ogun to cut wood and finetune it into a know shape. In this process, the sap thay comes out of it is what Ogun drinks. The Ogun here is their metalic tools. It is proven again that Ogun is metal.

4. 5. 6 and 7 all proofs another essence but which ever way, there is a pointer in the other three description that indicate that Ogun is Metal.


I wont deny that there are more to this Orisha than the scientific esense I choose to hold onto. However, in there natural essense, they are what they represent.

Orun mean lot of things. The womb is Orun. Also the sky is Orun. What the Yoruba people call Orun is non physical plain. Iron can be physical and at the sametime become non physical.

You done make Weah96 escape.

Macof and Folykaze

Iba o!
I find your exchanges interesting.

FOLYKAZE:


Pls permit me to cut in here.

The response you have here is completely wrong and it particularly driving the discussion into another subject. The OP asked you to explain why you think God does not exist. He didnt ask you why this particular God does not exist. So I dont see reason why you are bringing Jehovah and Allah brohaha into this. The question is why do you think God does not exist.

Let me elaborate my point with this sample. I could ask a vegetarian why he/she choose not to eat meat. The answer expected from such person is not another rhetoric question like do you mean pork or dog meat or elephant meat. What type of meat I refer to is not a problem but why is it that vegetarian dont eat meat. Just go straight to the answer.

That know, can you pls look away from Allah or Jehovah for now (that is another issue) and tell us why you disbelieve in God?

Surely others have already pointed this out, but....what a silly post

Even you, "atheist" that believes in god(s), cannot define god properly. Today it's lightning, tomorrow it's rivers. You cannot even provide a straight answer as to whether this your god is natural or not. In fact, seems you opened a thread just to clear up your confusion..

The type of vegetarian could very well be an issue. For instance, one could not have a problem with vanilla vegetarians as he could understand their respect for animal life, but could well have a problem with vegans as he finds the notion of abstaining from products like milk and honey - which aren't in any form life - ridiculous.

Same way an atheist may not really have issues with deists, even if he personally disbelieves in the notion, but have a hell of a lot of issues with theists. Especially those that argue there's a skydaddy somewhere that disapproves of your having sex doggystyle. And unless you have cement in your skull instead of grey matter, it should be quite clear that most of us atheists/anti-theists on these boards have an issue with theists of this sort.

The 'god' in question is quite relevant, implying otherwise is silly and disingenuous.

TL:DR; sharrap!!

wiegraf:


Surely others have already pointed this out, but....what a silly post

Even you, "atheist" that believes in god(s), cannot define god properly. Today it's lightning, tomorrow it's rivers. You cannot even provide a straight answer as to whether this your god is natural or not. In fact, seems you opened a thread just to clear up your confusion..

The type of vegetarian could very well be an issue. For instance, one could not have a problem with vanilla vegetarians as he could understand their respect for animal life, but could well have a problem with vegans as he finds the notion of abstaining from products like milk and honey - which aren't in any form life - ridiculous.

Same way an atheist may not really have issues with deists, even if he personally disbelieves in the notion, but have a hell of a lot of issues with theists. Especially those that argue there's a skydaddy somewhere that disapproves of your having sex doggystyle. And unless you have cement in your skull instead of grey matter, it should be quite clear that most of us atheists/anti-theists on these boards have an issue with theists of this sort.

The 'god' in question is quite relevant, implying otherwise is silly and disingenuous.

TL:DR; sharrap!!

The question Op asked is why do you think God does not exist? Did he specify any God concept or religion? So why would anyone bring in Jehovah??

And to your silly rants, pantheism or deism is a subset of theism. Only fools which you are claims he disagree theism God but approve deism or pantheism.

The thread is not about Jehovah and Allah but general God/gods. If you cannot deal with that, you can simply move to another thread

theunusualmoon:


Well, I guess megan good limited the horizons. It's not only about loving your wife.you love your mother,brothers etc. And on these occassions sex don't come in.and it's not only about love...people feel hate,jealousy,lust,etc.(And no one can see all this but we believe it exists because we can feel it) Mr frank and yourself have talked about the brain interpreting this feelings and classifying them but that's the same thing those who believe in GOD say: they feel GOD's presence. They connect with a force they percieve to be extra-ordinary. Just like you can't control yourself or really explain the feelings that come over you when megan good walks into the room.
@frank317

That's all good and well, but I'm going by what the books say. The bible, for example, makes it very clear that belief in Jesus CONFERS magical powers to command inanimate objects using speech. Those who can't do it, do not believe in Jesus.

So when you say that you feel him and love him, I'm asking you WHO? What are you saying? Did you discard your bible or do you find a way to justify the thing to yourself?

FOLYKAZE:
@ Macof.



You done make Weah96 escape.

Escape? From where, Guantanamo? You guys are going too deep with the animism and symbolism for me to coherently follow.

Weah96:


Escape? From where, Guantanamo? You guys are going too deep with the animism and symbolism for me to coherently follow.

lol

Which tribe are you from?

Erm, i seem not to understand this atheism brouhaha. Pantheism is a wing of theism. Some of atheists I engaged accept and approve pantheistic God but still shout around that they reject of theistic God. Isnt this a kind of confusion to you?

I know and understand how much you reject Monotheistic deity but why cant your stance be definitive? If it is about theism, pantheism which God exist would raise flaws in atheism.


I was surfing the politics section when some called Buhari his personal God. https://www.nairaland.com/2238317/apc-members-reffering-buhari-messiah#32370851 Buhari called personal god and he exist. If by Tomorrow these people dedicate a shrine for him, will you still disbelieve in him?

FOLYKAZE:


The question Op asked is why do you think God does not exist? Did he specify any God concept or religion? So why would anyone bring in Jehovah??

Yes, my good genius. And the whole point of the post, in case you missed it, was to demonstrate why it is very much in order to ask which god.

Of course, the point is well lost on you. I'd have better luck trying to explain this to a gibbon.

Unless, of course, you're purposely being dense just so you could inject your nonsensical "atheist" spirituality into this convo

That would be giving you too much credit tho

FOLYKAZE:

And to your silly rants, pantheism or deism is a subset of theism. Only fools which you are claims he disagree theism God but approve deism or pantheism.

The thread is not about Jehovah and Allah but general God/gods. If you cannot deal with that, you can simply move to another thread

You don't even know the basics....


the·ism
ˈTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Theism

wiki:

Theism, in the field of comparative religion, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In popular parlance, the term theism often describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Druze, Sikhism, and Hinduism.

The term theism derives from the Greek theos meaning "god". The term theism was first used by Ralph Cudworth (1617–88).[2] In Cudworth's definition, they are "strictly and properly called Theists, who affirm, that a perfectly conscious understanding being, or mind, existing of itself from eternity, was the cause of all other things".[3]

Atheism is rejection of theism in the broadest sense of theism; i.e. the absence of belief that there is even one deity.[4] Rejection of the narrower sense of theism can take forms such as deism, pantheism, and polytheism. The claim that the existence of any deity is unknown or unknowable is agnosticism.[5][6] The positive assertion of knowledge, either of the existence of gods or the absence of gods, can also be attributed to some theists and some atheists. Put simply, theism and atheism deal with belief, and agnosticism deals with rational claims to asserting knowledge.[6]

Please, replace the vacum in your head with something capable of digesting knowledge, and note the difference.

Theism is effectively the belief in a personal god(s) of some sort

Deism is the belief in a god(s) that essentially doesn't give a f.uck (indeed, it need not even have supernatural attributes)

Pantheism is even sometimes described as some sort of souped up atheism. 'Nuff said.


You say this thread isn't about jehova or yahweh? Oya, abeg, which god

YOU IN A THREAD YOU JUST OPENED:


God is a broad word that mean different thing to different people. It comes with different forms, attributes and concepts. In all these dimensions, God is seen as a divine entity which is worthy of worship either by proxy or directly. But when we look closely, those things that are been called God exist independently either as an idea (Law and Justice) or Natural entities (River, Sun and animals) or both. We found out that much reverence is given to these entities in the part of the world where they are seen as God while on the other end, these entities attracts little or no value.

What is wrong with you?

And you have the gall to claim someone asking for clarification is wrong and irrelevant??

Weah96:


Escape? From where, Guantanamo? You guys are going too deep with the animism and symbolism for me to coherently follow.

bros please you are free to ask any question u have

Folykaze I thought we had agreed on a compromise
Anyway. .. am very familiar with the Odu about Sango and like I told you Ifa speaks history and Spirituality even in the same Ese Ifa
It is left for you to understand and identity them
It's not easy really. ..this has even caused the famous "Oduduwa coming from the sky" controversy


I remember that thread and I stil agree with the message. .. The Imole are present in the natural world... their Ase are visible as things like Metal, rivers etc but restricting them to Scientific elements(which was the case) is not advisable. ..they go beyond what you can see, feel or capture in a cylinder

There's nothing wrong with calling Iron Ogun(Iron is filled with Ogun's Ase afterall...and to reach the spirit you go through its Ase in the physical) but not when you restrict Ogun to a mere physical element by saying Ogun is Iron... maybe I made a statement that it's wrong to call Iron Ogun bt that was just due to the tension of arguement and debate


I hope you understand what I'm saying now

wiegraf:

Yes, my good genius. And the whole point of the post, in case you missed it, was to demonstrate why it is very much in order to ask which god.

Wiegraf will always prove he is omni-foolish.

The Op base on his believe that weah96 is an atheist, he asked him why he thinks God does not exist.

However, atheism have been defined countless time as the disbelieve in the existence of God. God in this context is not defined which implies that it be could anything and everything God mean.

Christians can claim they believe in God but when we probe further, we know what they mean by God and that is Jehovah.

Do atheists tend to define what they mean by God? No.

Therefore we have to assume they disbelieve in anything or definitions that made up what we call God.

Immediately weah96 asked if the OP meant Jehovah or Allah, this is a missed target that reveal that atheists believe some other God do exist. The evidence is there and already proven. You can eat that.

wiegraf:

Of course, the point is well lost on you. I'd have better luck trying to explain this to a gibbon.

Unless, of course, you're purposely being dense just so you could inject your nonsensical "atheist" spirituality into this convo

That would be giving you too much credit tho

that doesnt stop plaetton from believing Ra is worthy of worship.

Weah96 is not excluded from this insanity of believing in pantheistic God.

wiegraf:

You don't even know the basics....

the·ism
ˈTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Theism

Holy me!!!!

I think you just run like a mad dog to these websites looking for definition of theism while you left your brain in the kennel.

The flaws in this definition of yours are;

- Not all theistic religion hold believe in creator God. Jainism

- Not all God in theistic religion sustain relationship with their creature. Aborisa do not have any relationship with Eledumare.

- The wiki rejection of the narrower sense of theism is the greatest fallacy of the century. This hold that theism as depicted there is monotheism and not theism in the general sense.


That is why I said you need to understand the ABC of each word.

THEISM 101

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term 'god' is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_what.htm

Now look at the statement in red and tell me how polytheism rejects narrower sense of theism.

It is the same dictionary that defines atheism as wickedness and a belief that God do not exist. That you are too stupiid does not mean others dont scrutinize each definition from your so called dictionaries.

And again, do you notice the word 'especially' and specifically'? The two words are used to single out one person or thing over all others. Monotheism is single out and you stupiidly took that to mean theism.

My position holds and I remain firm that since theism depend not on how a God is defined, atheism simply mean rejection of all form God without considering how the God is defined or the form it takes and the type of theism it falls in

wiegraf:

Please, replace the vacum in your head with something capable of digesting knowledge, and note the difference.

Theism is effectively the belief in a personal god(s) of some sort

Deism is the belief in a god(s) that essentially doesn't give a f.uck (indeed, it need not even have supernatural attributes)

Pantheism is even sometimes described as some sort of souped up atheism. 'Nuff said.

Hopefully you didnt know how blind you are to deny divinity of God among those forms of theism.

There is no God either in monotheism, polythiesm, pantheism, deism and panentheism that is not divine or lacks lack divinity attributes. God is not about been personal or impersonal but Divinity.

And stop been silly and dumb.

Theism: Believe in at least one God/god. There is nothing more to this.

Pantheism : It is a belief in god and divinity. Therefore it is samething as theism.

Deism: another belief in god. There is even a believe in creator God here

Both are subset of Theism. Pantheism and deism is a branch and form of theism. Theism in the broadest sense just means the belief in a or multiple god/s, so you could think of deism and pantheism as a form of theism.

Therefore atheism is opposition of theism (believe in God/gods and every form like pantheism and deism attached to it)

wiegraf:

You say this thread isn't about jehova or yahweh? Oya, abeg, which god

Another dumbness from wiegraf. Are you asking me which God because you believe in some God? I might say I hate America. It is fooliahness like you are displaying here to ask me which part of America.

Theism is about believe in God without minding how it is defined or the form it takes and in numbers it come.

Atheist are expected to disbelieve in all forms of God. Not only just Jehovah and Allah.

wiegraf:

What is wrong with you?

And you have the gall to claim someone asking for clarification is wrong and irrelevant??

Theism do not care about how God is defined and what God mean. Everyone could believe in any form or concept of God they chose. It is understandable that there is different meaning and viewpoint to these Gods but all is still under the umbrella of God.

Atheism which oppose theism means all all forms and concept of God should be rejected. And not just Jehovah and Allah.

macof:
Folykaze I thought we had agreed on a compromise
Anyway. .. am very familiar with the Odu about Sango and like I told you Ifa speaks history and Spirituality even in the same Ese Ifa
It is left for you to understand and identity them
It's not easy really. ..this has even caused the famous "Oduduwa coming from the sky" controversy


I remember that thread and I stil agree with the message. .. The Imole are present in the natural world... their Ase are visible as things like Metal, rivers etc but restricting them to Scientific elements(which was the case) is not advisable. ..they go beyond what you can see, feel or capture in a cylinder

There's nothing wrong with calling Iron Ogun(Iron is filled with Ogun's Ase afterall...and to reach the spirit you go through its Ase in the physical) but not when you restrict Ogun to a mere physical element by saying Ogun is Iron... maybe I made a statement that it's wrong to call Iron Ogun bt that was just due to the tension of arguement and debate


I hope you understand what I'm saying now

Hey Bro.

I know there are more to Orisha than the scientific or naturalistic essence I choose to hold on to. I know my boundary which makes me limit my discussion on this particular essence. I know how versed you and 9jacrip is when it comes to historical essence of Orisha. And maybe one day, we will have someone that can 'ki odu Orisha ni ko kan'.

Cheers man

FOLYKAZE:


Wiegraf will always prove he is omni-foolish.

The Op base on his believe that weah96 is an atheist, he asked him why he thinks God does not exist.

However, atheism have been defined countless time as the disbelieve in the existence of God. God in this context is not defined which implies that it be could anything and everything God mean.

Christians can claim they believe in God but when we probe further, we know what they mean by God and that is Jehovah.

Do atheists tend to define what they mean by God? No.

Therefore we have to assume they disbelieve in anything or definitions that made up what we call God.

Immediately weah96 asked if the OP meant Jehovah or Allah, this is a missed target that reveal that atheists believe some other God do exist. The evidence is there and already proven. You can eat that.



that doesnt stop plaetton from believing Ra is worthy of worship.

Weah96 is not excluded from this insanity of believing in pantheistic God.




Holy me!!!!

I think you just run like a mad dog to these websites looking for definition of theism while you left your brain in the kennel.

The flaws in this definition of yours are;

- Not all theistic religion hold believe in creator God. Jainism

- Not all God in theistic religion sustain relationship with their creature. Aborisa do not have any relationship with Eledumare.

- The wiki rejection of the narrower sense of theism is the greatest fallacy of the century. This hold that theism as depicted there is monotheism and not theism in the general sense.


That is why I said you need to understand the ABC of each word.



Now look at the statement in red and tell me how polytheism rejects narrower sense of theism.

It is the same dictionary that defines atheism as wickedness and a belief that God do not exist. That you are too stupiid does not mean others dont scrutinize each definition from your so called dictionaries.

And again, do you notice the word 'especially' and specifically'? The two words are used to single out one person or thing over all others. Monotheism is single out and you stupiidly took that to mean theism.

My position holds and I remain firm that since theism depend not on how a God is defined, atheism simply mean rejection of all form God without considering how the God is defined or the form it takes and the type of theism it falls in



Hopefully you didnt know how blind you are to deny divinity of God among those forms of theism.

There is no God either in monotheism, polythiesm, pantheism, deism and panentheism that is not divine or lacks lack divinity attributes. God is not about been personal or impersonal but Divinity.

And stop been silly and dumb.

Theism: Believe in at least one God/god. There is nothing more to this.

Pantheism : It is a belief in god and divinity. Therefore it is samething as theism.

Deism: another belief in god. There is even a believe in creator God here

Both are subset of Theism. Pantheism and deism is a branch and form of theism. Theism in the broadest sense just means the belief in a or multiple god/s, so you could think of deism and pantheism as a form of theism.

Therefore atheism is opposition of theism (believe in God/gods and every form like pantheism and deism attached to it)





Another dumbness from wiegraf. Are you asking me which God because you believe in some God? I might say I hate America. It is fooliahness like you are displaying here to ask me which part of America.

Theism is about believe in God without minding how it is defined or the form it takes and in numbers it come.

Atheist are expected to disbelieve in all forms of God. Not only just Jehovah and Allah.



Theism do not care about how God is defined and what God mean. Everyone could believe in any form or concept of God they chose. It is understandable that there is different meaning and viewpoint to these Gods but all is still under the umbrella of God.

Atheism which oppose theism means all all forms and concept of God should be rejected. And not just Jehovah and Allah.

...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a humble man trying to educate a m.oron, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! Reason rests.

Weah96:


That's all good and well, but I'm going by what the books say. The bible, for example, makes it very clear that belief in Jesus CONFERS magical powers to command inanimate objects using speech. Those who can't do it, do not believe in Jesus.
So when you say that you feel him and love him, I'm asking you WHO?
What are you saying? Did you discard your bible or do you find a way to justify the thing to yourself?

Haven't you ever come across text books or study materials with one or two errors? Did you discard them for this reason? Or did you go on to correct the errors and then use the book.

Haven't you ever been in a class where students raised objections at the teacher's opinion?
And everyone realised there was an error,they corrected it and continued learning under the same teacher?
......

theunusualmoon:


Haven't you ever come across text books or study materials with one or two errors? Did you discard them for this reason? Or did you go on to correct the errors and then use the book.

Haven't you ever been in a class where students raised objections at the teacher's opinion?
And everyone realised there was an error,they corrected it and continued learning under the same teacher?
......

Sure, I have. But we're talking about the alleged creator of the universe here, not manufacturer of textbooks. The book contains verses which protect the investment of the writers. There are verses warning about adding words or subtracting words. There are other verses which say that the book is complete, undeserving of any further modification.

And then there's the inherent syllogism:

God cannot lie.
The bible is the word of God

Therefore, the bible is 100% true. It is what it is.

Weah96:


Sure, I have. But we're talking about the alleged creator of the universe here, not manufacturer of textbooks. The book contains verses which protect the investment of the writers. There are verses warning about adding words or subtracting words. There are other verses which say that the book is complete, undeserving of any further modification.

And then there's the inherent syllogism:

God cannot lie.
The bible is the word of God

Therefore, the bible is 100% true. It is what it is.

.......
I understand you perfectly.And I can tell you that most of the contents in that book is about incidents that happened at a time when documentation was non existent.so there is a possibilty of exaggeration or deficient information.Infact the events and speeches quoted in the book happened years before the book was put together.

And that's why I want us to discuss the existence or non-existence of GOD before we delve into religious denominations or books.Because I don't believe we need to refer to these books before we can realise that GOD exists for GOD is greater than the books.