No2Atheism:

1. Please do not assume that i am praising islam, far far from it. I am only pointing out facts of recorded history showing that Black Africans in terms of Egyptians and Moors (who were muslims and who did it in conjuction with Arabs) have contributed to the wealth of knowledge that most people now term to be western education. Hence my conclusion that it is stupid for some muslims to claim that education is evil, considering that history shows that part of what we now know as western education was actually discovered by some black muslims known as Moors.

and these "recorded history" is from a book written in 1991?  May God have mercy.

Van Sertima was NOT promoting islamic contributions to science in his book but that much of the advances in science came from BLACK AFRICANS who only happened to be living under muslim rule. Get your facts right.

Please, can people just stop all this bullshit about how muslims invented this and that.

MOST OF THE STUFF IN THE WORLD was developed independently.

That means that lots of different people in lots of different countries discovered math and science without ever communicating with each other.

The Arabs DID NOT invent algebra. Using your reasoning I could also argue that the Igbos invented algebra. Afterall we could count and add and subtract and multiply and divide LONG BEFORE we had any contact with the Europeans or anyone from the outside world. Before contact, Igbos counted in BASE TWENTY. It was only when the Europeans came with their own system in BASE TEN that we adopted counting and algebra in Base ten.

It's the same for all the other stuff. So please, stop puffing up those stupid Arabs. The only thing they ever contributed to this world was An Advanced Lesson in Molesting Little Girls Volumes 1 to 15.

Islam is a peaceful religion? Like they say. LMAO
The Talibans in Nigeria should know that this is diverse nation not like Pakistan (Islambad-asses), Saudi or Iran, where they all predominantly Muslims. They need to stop listening for clowns called clerics overthere that only preach hate all their life. If this ugly move doesn't get checked it might lead to a large sectarian violence. You don't want western education? If you want Nigeria to break up, maybe it's high time! But be warned, I don't want any Igbo people to comment on my comment. With that being said, I have defeated you secessionist ideology.

sugabelly:

Please, can people just stop all this bullshit about how muslims invented this and that.

MOST OF THE STUFF IN THE WORLD was developed independently.

That means that lots of different people in lots of different countries discovered math and science without ever communicating with each other.

The Arabs DID NOT invent algebra. Using your reasoning I could also argue that the Igbos invented algebra. Afterall we could count and add and subtract and multiply and divide LONG BEFORE we had any contact with the Europeans or anyone from the outside world. Before contact, Igbos counted in BASE TWENTY. It was only when the Europeans came with their own system in BASE TEN that we adopted counting and algebra in Base ten.

My sister biko you talk true!   My great great great great igbo grandfather didnt need a muslim to learn how to count his cowries.

The greeks gave us Pythagoras well before islam was ever invented! How did pythagoras develop his theorem if he was waiting for the muslims to teach him algebra? Abegi Van Sertima ko . . . Bus Sertima ni.

FLOW101:

Now we know where those guns intercepted at Kano airport were headed

Using western tools to prosecute anti western agitations.
The highest level of  illiteracy.

Yet Islam is a religion of peace.

MEND and other Niger Delta Militanats did far worse than this

i really dont know why the debate. those who are talking about standing up or talking sense into this guys, should relocate to the north and do the talking, we have tried. its just impossible to make someone without a brain to reason. For all i care, all moslems, whether boko haram or not, should be tied to a car, and dragged for 10,000 miles at 220kmph.

look i dont even care if they repent, someone should just take a heavy duty truck, dig a very wide and deep gully btw the north and south and divide this nation into two. its bad enough we live with poverty, corruption, no power, but its even worse we live with this Goats!!!!!!!!!

Na laugh laugh dem take catch monkey!
Christians in Nigeria takes the islamic radicals too lightly. From forcing them to obey islamic laws, to burning down churches, to killing them at the least provocation, Nigerian christians in the north, east, and west make me sick with their just-turn-the-other-cheeck policy.

@wilywily, it is a fool that judge a profession by its professor while a wise judges a professor by it is profession.
If you had knowledge of Quran you would not have utter all ur satanic statement about quran.  Your statements even show
your level of thinking, tribalism and your religion fanaticism.
As we had people burnt themselves in churches and committing genocide of various form in the west world as a result of
religion misconception, no doubt this is another form of religion misconception. This is just a case of wrong 'leader' and blind
landownership in religion.

ALLAH IS WATCHING US. . . AND HE DEFINATELY KNOWS BEST !

WHAT THESE GUYS ARE DOING IS NOT ISLAM AND CANT BE TRACED TO ANY TEACHING OF THE PROPHET (PBUH). . .

I'M STARTING THO THINK THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN THE WESTERN EDUCATION STUFF WHY THE HELL WILL ANYONE SAY SEEKING KNOWLEDGE IS WRONG? MEEEN LET THEM WIPE OUT THESE GUYS ABEG. . . IT MAKES ME FEEL SICK !!! AND U GUYS SHOULD STOP SAYING BOLLOCKS ABOUT ISLAM AND ALLAH. . .! ISLAM IS PEACE!!!

javalove:

ISLAM IS PEACE!!!

Yeah we know . . . see how "peaceful" the muslims in Bauchi, Sudan, Gaza, Iraq, Pakistan are . . .

The actions of Boko Haram is most condemnable and this I have said in the other thread.
It is borne out of misguided interpretation of Islam. There is nothing wrong in western education. What is not good for a Muslim is complete abandon of the knowledge of Islam. Apart from the ABC of Islam we learnt at home while growing up, I learnt the bulk of what I know in Islam today through reading books written in English, and some of my favourite Islamic scholars are from Jamaica(Bilal Philips and Abdulah Faisal) and I read their books in English, a language I learnt through education.

Islam encourages us to seek any knowledge that can be beneficial to us, from science to arts, ICT etc. Impermissible(non-beneficial) knowledge includes magic etc.
You can learn from anybody, irrespective of faith, in as much as that knowledge is good to sustain your live or protect your faith. We even have accounts of Prophet's(PBUH) companions that learnt from Jews and Christians.

Boko Haram's claim, therefore, is sheer extremism and has no place in Islam. Even worse is the fact that they are seeking to enforce this on other people.

this is just a case of wrong 'leader' and blind follower.

Am I the only one that thinks that Islam is just ARAB CULTURE disguised as a religion?

We cannot take this anymore from Hausas! Nigeria is now 49 years of age, you are still adhered to your primitive thinking. Within 49 years of age, your people still show lackadaisical altitudes to education. We have given you so much infringed benefits (the educational less privilege regions, highest representative in our arms of government, quota system, federal character e.t.c.)
A time will come we would no more for all these bullshits!
^^^You generate lowest internal revenues and collect highest federal allocations^^^ (robbing Peter to pay Paul)
^^^You have the lowest IQ, but want to be protected under the aegis of quota system and federal character e.g. The CBN governor, who had Bsc in Economics and after two decades had another one-year-and-two-degree in Sharia in a war ravaged Sudanese cleric school and under the quota system he became CBN governor.^^^ (Nigeria, the only country where dogs kill lions)
^^^Again, you want even development like in the south; where every foundation was laid through education.^^^

That’s a good question! Hausas want to get on this forum too, but majority will tell you “barbu turanshi” meaning no English and if you get on with them in Arabic; they will surely win you on that one. Like I could remember in those days, if you asked any Hausa trader would you travel to America? He would reject it with a passion and tell you it’s not a Saudi Arabia. Just to show you how they detested anything western, it might be in education, culture and religion. Let me crack this joke from the “Night of a thousand laughs”: There were two Abokis who boarded a plane to Mecca and they paid for economic class, when they moved in to the plane; they saw three seats empty in first class. They decided to sit on first class seats despites they had economic class tickets. Then, one of the flight crew “Oyinbo” walked to them and asked about their tickets and figured that they belong to economic class, he asked them to move to their right seats; they refused and even shouted “barawo bansa on him. Then, another member of the crew approached them and told that (you see these seats in first class belong to people that are going to America and the back seats “Economic Class” belong to people that are going to Mecca) with a passion they got up and moved straight to the back. Just to tell you how Hausas hate anything Western indeed!

We don’t have nothing to fear against North other than to show them love like we used to; our forefathers had seen such brighter future to come together. The problem of Nigeria is not about religions, it’s about theocracy versus democracy. So, in the north, their ideology is based on theocracy; while in south its democracy. [Like they say:Yoruba people of SW of Nigeria still remain the most tolerant when it comes to religion, they juxtapose between Christianity and Islam. A kind of anomaly that is rare to find in other part of the world. (The Christians in the west have succeeded many times to nudge off non-Christians and Arab world had succeeded making hell of a life to non Muslims] The problem might be solved in future, but north needs to do more in education rather than religion. I remember in the South West in those days, the Muslims would not let their children marry Christians and you must go to Arabic school by force. Then, towards late 80’s orientation started changing; we realized the bind of Oduduwa that puts us together is more powerful and stronger than religions and either we are Muslims or Christians we have common believe in democracy. Everybody eyes changed towards education; because it’s the best legacy.
Northerners need to be tolerant too and consider the southerners as family to forge prosperity. Then, let us not forget that Islam came from Saudi, Iran and Pakistan and they are all predominantly Muslims. They see other religions’ worshippers as pagans and always want to convert them by force. We should know that we are so diverse in Nigeria and whatever works in Saudi might not work in Nigeria.
I'm no tribalist but give me a reason to like the hausa- fulani who are quick to shed the blood of those they benefit from?
You are right, but I don’t think I can answer that until there is a change in orientation.
If you view clips on youtube about cleric in Saudi, Iran and Pakistan, you will see that they are the ones that mislead northerners.
1) They believe you can kill unbeliever – it’s called honorary killing
2) Unbelievers cannot build churches on their land
3) They cut of hands if you steal
4) You can beat your wives if they fail to your order
5) Arabic school is the most complete to them
6) No matter how they benefit from you, if you are not a Muslim you can still get killed so cheap.
Then, my last word, Bleep all Arab terrorists; (the lack logic thinking and hold down innovations).

Insert Quote

Please, can people just stop all this bullshit about how muslims invented this and that.

MOST OF THE STUFF IN THE WORLD was developed independently.

That means that lots of different people in lots of different countries discovered math and science without ever communicating with each other.

The Arabs DID NOT invent algebra. Using your reasoning I could also argue that the Igbos invented algebra. Afterall we could count and add and subtract and multiply and divide LONG BEFORE we had any contact with the Europeans or anyone from the outside world. Before contact, Igbos counted in BASE TWENTY. It was only when the Europeans came with their own system in BASE TEN that we adopted counting and algebra in Base ten.

It's the same for all the other stuff. So please, stop puffing up those stupid Arabs. The only thing they ever contributed to this world was An Advanced Lesson in Molesting Little Girls Volumes 1 to 15.

yeah - but where is the igbo golden age  

by that argument - your hero davidylan's arguments about jews and christians are also moot

oyb:

Insert Quote
yeah - but where is the igbo golden age  

by that argument - your hero davidylan's arguments about jews and christians are also moot

Which proves my point. EVERYONE'S arguments about supremacy are MOOT. Most things developed INDEPENDENTLY, so it is wrong for people to run around claiming that the Arabs invented mathematics or the Greeks invented spelling. The only difference is that those two groups of people went around lying to everyone that THEY invented everything which is untrue.

oyb:

Insert Quote
yeah - but where is the igbo golden age  

by that argument - your hero davidylan's [b]arguments about jews and christians [/b]are also moot

no where on this thread did i argue about jews and christians. It seems you cant read.

Jarus:

Islam encourages us to seek any knowledge that can be beneficial to us, from science to arts, ICT etc.

i wonder why majority muslim countries prefer to seek islamic studies instead. Perhaps they read that hadith upside down.

sugabelly:

Am I the only one that thinks that Islam is just ARAB CULTURE disguised as a religion?

you're not too far away from the truth.

sugabelly:


http://www.aftenbladet.no/english/940794/13-year_old_stoned_to_death_in_Somalia.html

Islam is peace!

The CBN governor, who had Bsc in Economics and after  two decades had another one-year-and-two-degree in Sharia in a war ravaged Sudanese cleric school and under the quota system he became CBN governor.^^^

Please let's stop this armchair analysis. Do you know anything about the man Sanusi at all?
While paper qualification cannot be totally dismissed, it does not in any way connote competence. SLS matches the best brains in the south in banking and economic sholarship.
Like Sanusi, past CBN governors, except Soludo and maybe Paul Ogwuma, were drawn from banking sector and none had more than Masters degree, which Sanusi also has in Economics(ABU,1983).  If CBN governorship had been zoned to a region as educated as South-West, he will easily rank up there among the top 3 the region can offer.

Dare to challenge me?  Let's open a new thread.

Jarus:


Please let's stop this armchair analysis. Do you know anything about the man Sanusi at all?
While paper qualification cannot be totally dismissed, it does not in any way connote competence. SLS matches the best brains in the south in banking and economic sholarship.
Like Sanusi, past CBN governors, except Soludo and maybe Paul Ogwuma, were drawn from banking sector and none had more than Masters degree, which Sanusi also has in Economics(ABU,1983).  If CBN governorship had been zoned to a region as educated as South-West, he will easily rank up there among the top 3 the region can offer.

Dare to challenge me?  Let's open a new thread.

That's rubbish. Sanusi ranking among the top three banking brains in the South West? 

Is that why the north has no bank of repute?  Why didnt Sanusi go start one for them?

^^^

how can he be, when we have davidylan taking all three positions singlehandedly

davidylan:

Too bad . . . the problem with a lot of you is you read books that are filled with halftruths and then all of a sudden assume you have knowledge.

1. To claim that Sertima is a "world respected historian" is to utterly and hypocritically disregard the serious criticism levelled against his works by fellow historians. Here is one - A 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology article criticized in detail many elements of Van Sertima's 1976 book They Came Before Columbus.
- Gabriel Haslip-Viera; Bernard Ortiz de Montellano; Warren Barbour, "Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs", Current Anthropology, Vol.38 (3), June 1997

More - In a New York Times 1977 review of Van Sertima's works, British scholar Glyn Daniel labelled Van Sertima's work as "ignorant rubbish", concluding that the writings of Van Sertima (and Barry Fell, whom he was also reviewing) “give us badly argued theories based on fantasies”.[5]. Dean R. Snow, a professor of anthropology, in 1981 wrote that Van Sertima "uses the now familiar technique of stringing together bits of carefully selected evidence, each surgically removed from the context that would give it a rational explanation". Snow continued, "The findings of professional archaeologists and physical anthropologists are misrepresented so that they seem to support the [Van Sertima] hypothesis."

- Read more sources via wikipedia.

2. There are VERY SERIOUS problems with Van Sertima's afrocentric claims (i'm sure you dont know that the Moors Sertima ascribed all those scientific advances to were black North Africans) is that they dont make any sense in contemporary science. If truly muslims gave Europe all the modern advances in science . . . what happened after that? Did all the muslim scientists die in an earthquake? Why did Jews and Europeans (who allegedly relied on muslims for advancement) suddenly shoot ahead of everyone else?

Where are the muslim scientific achievements?

3. Van Sertima was born in 1935, why did NO ONE ELSE document this alleged muslim contribution to science? Why did everyone (including the alleged muslim scientists) wait almost 1000 yrs to document these achievements?

These are critical issues you need to look at, not just read off a bogus book and start making unfounded claims. You can be irritated all you want, none of my business.

Okay now i sincerely do not understand where the antagonism is coming from  , wow nairaland does not cease to amaze me or is there something else that i am supposed to know about as per operating on nairaland or something. In case you are looking for the I am right, You are wrong or You are right, I am wrong scenario, then be informed that i am not one to humour you based on that. Mine is to present my statements in conjuction with my references for others to crosscheck and form their own personal opinion. If their opinion agrees with mine, fair enough, if it does not, it is not my place to enforce it on them nor start making it personal.


1. Okay i can see the you are eurocentric, hence i do not think it warrants my time and effort to wade into this issue, cus this is not even an issue of a day or month or years. Historian far far knowledgable than i am on topics like this have been waging such a battle of eurocentric ideas versus real world history.

2. One peculiar thing about the people you are quoting and the rebuttals that have been giving is that most if not all of them have been mere character assassinations and not academic rebuttals. What Ivan Sertima did is not mere paper conjecture but things actually backed up by physical historical evidences (please check some of the related videos bearing his name).

3. Yes its good to oppose muslims, but please lets do it with the truth and not unneeded half-truths. History shows that Moors (who were muslims) contributed to the development of our present day knowledge of science (saying the truth and giving them the honour they deserve does not add nor subtract from the truth of the Bible neither does it aid the lies of islam or the quran simply because at the end of the day, truth would prevail even if its an enemy that says it)

4. One thing i still do not get is that, how did you go from no bordering about my radar to making it your duty to antagonise me. Fair enough its a free world hence i would take it like that and ignore it.

5. Funny that your references come from Eurocentric authors.

6. In as much as i am tempted to prolong this our dialogue, i think i would swallow my pride and instead let it pass. At least its good it has been done twice enough to make me understand that the first time was just not a one-off.

7. I find it rather weird that you are choosing to discredit Ivan Van Sertima wow wow   based on what eurocentric authors are saying and in blatant contradiction to obvious physical and pictorial references (although please note that it does not mean the Ivan van Sertima is a saint far far from it, rather what he says and what he has documented is referencable, viewable and indisputable).

8. By the way your comment about the book which i recommended i.e. "Golden age of the Moor By Ivan Van Sertima" shows that u do not intend to read it before passing judgement. This is because if u had taking time to go through it before passing judgement on the book you would realise the following:

a. It was not written by Ivan van Sertima, rather it was edited by him (meaning that he took it upon himself to verify the information provided by the materials in the book)
b. Some of the information provided in the book actually refer to western sources of information.


9. Okay taking that you have chosen to discredit Ivan Van Sertima without actually making an effort to read the book (i know this because you showed from your statements that you do not even know that he did not actually write the book but merely edited it). Maybe i can recommend the following individuals and their books/videos then: (Please note that i does not mean that i completely endorse each and every word coming out of the mouth of those people mentioned, instead what they say is cross-referencable)


Dr. Joel Freeman/Don Griffin Return to Glory - The Truth About Black History/The Powerful Stirring of the Black Man (Video and Book)
Martin Bernal - Black Athena (Book).
Cheikh Anta Diop - The African Origin of Civilisation: Myth or Reality (Book).
George James - Stolen Legacy (Book).
John Henrik Clark/Dr. Martin Bernal versus Dr. Mary Lefkowitz/Dr. Guy McLean - Academic Debate on the Origins of Western Civilisation and a little bit of Black Athena (Video).
Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan - Dr. Ben in Kemet (Video).
Dr. Leonard Jefferies/John Henrik Clark/Dr. Martin Bernal/Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan/Dr. Ivan Van Sertima  - Christopher Columbus and Slavery (Video).
Basil Davidson - European Distortion of African History (Video)
Dr Chancellor Williams - The Destruction of Black Civilization.
Ivan Van Sertima - They Came Before Columbus (Video and Book),
Ivan Van Sertima - Africans in Science: Ancient and Modern (Video).




10. Considering that u have chosen to personalise issues with me for some unknown reasons (which i am still trying to fanthom), and also considering that i prefer not to go down the route of public bickering i think it would be wise not to respond to your subsequent statements (not because i do not have a response but rather because it is the appropriate thing to do under the circumstance) so as not to bring about a public spat and instead focus on the threads itself.

Wow wow this is seriously a wow moment   , who could have thought   wow seriously wow. At least there is nothing hidden now, now that the intent of the heart has been spoken out through words of the mouth.

Wow nairaland keeps suprising me, I have heard of friendly fire, but damn   this is more like sniper shots   , anyway, world keeps moving.



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@oyb and other muslims

Back to the original topic of thread, the issue is that the phrase "true moderate muslim" is an oxymoron simply because being a true muslim requires muslims to either kill or discriminate against other faith or oppress them (e.g. Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Zamfara State, Most of Northern Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt, Most of the Muslim Middle East). Hence in as much as i do not want the Boko Haram people to be killed, at the same time, enough is enough, muslims need to be warned that they should not tempt bible believers into taking retailiatory actions if and when they are pushed to the wall. Hence someone cannot be a true muslim at the same time as being a moderate muslim, it is not possible.

No2Atheism:

10. Considering that u have chosen to personalise issues with me for some unknown reasons

you're wasting too much time and trying too hard to find "personalisation of issues" where there is none. I didnt respond to you based on your ID but based on the issues you raised which i had problems with . . . not with you as a person.

davidylan:

That's rubbish. Sanusi ranking among the top three banking brains in the South West?  

Is that why the north has no bank of repute?   Why didnt Sanusi go start one for them?

Let's go and debate this here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-302810.0.html

Jarus:

Let's go and debate this here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-302810.0.html

you get time.

Na waa ooo, why are muslims causing problems all over the world? What kind of religion is this? Infact we must send all of them to another planet, there they can MEND themselves, Tufiaaa!!!!

Yaradua has had security reports about muslims sects arming themselves in the north. What has he done so far but try to hide the fact? It shows his sympathies and the grave dangers facing this country. If Nigeria remains one, Yaradua must be tried for all those deaths. He must not escape.

Of course with $400bn+ in loot, northern leaders will always depend on people like these sects to keep the country unstable.