₦airaland Forum

Statsocial:
CU is certainly not a conventional university. If you can graduate from CU without transferring out or getting expelled then you can succeed in any thing you do in life. However this isn't good for the PR of the University. No one is saying they must compromise on the core values but some times you've got to get a human face to legality especially when dealing with youths.

Also, Easter is a public holiday which is backed by either the law or an executive order hence any program within that duration should NEVER be official...

Thank you jare.
I have three attendance defaults, i don't even know what exam i'm going to miss, i pray it's not a 3 unit course.
Those that are already done with their exams i wonder what the management will do to them. Well i think this is bs and we would be given make up examinations maybe during TTG week, cos otherwise will mean automatic spill over for many final year students.
How can you hold a service for 5 days straight every morning and evening, and exam was scheduled to start on the sixth day. This school get wahala sef.

shadeyinka:
Physical Existence and space/time are mutually exclusive

Spiritual Existence can occur outside space and time.

I am sure we shall disagree on this but a good example is what happens in your Dreams (very similar to how things are in the spirit)

Where:

Time isn't linear and sometimes irrelevant
Position isn't absolute

You can think ofbitbin terms of Parallel Universe.

Within a dream, a person could get admission to a school, graduate and start his NYSC all within a dream. In such dream, the events could even occur in parallel and the events seem logical.

Of course, in the Physical, the dream itself could be a 2 minutes REM dream...an impossibility in real life.

You may not believe in the existence of spirit and how they operate (and you don't need to) but that is a close enough explanation of why God can exist without location. Everywhere and Somewhere at the same time!

Like I said, we don't have to agree of the possibility. It is sufficient to just understand how those who believe in God Jehovah think.

Dreams are projections made by a material being.

So by this, your spiritual world could also be projections of your "material brain".

First time I'm hearing about a Freethinking Deist.
I know of Freethinkers
I know of Deists
But the combination must be complex. So you see why I mistook you for an Atheist. Even then, you still sound very Atheistic.

Don't mind me jare.
I adhere to the deistic belief of a non-interventionist Creator.
But not fully to deism, because most of its tenets(or should i say what most deists nowadays belief) especially "modern deism" contradicts the very definition of deism.
So i no longer like to be called a deist, so i don't get misunderstood.

---

By the way, you didn't do a good job proving your predestination case.
You even fumbled when you made this statement:

If your Mum married someone else other than your Dad, you will not be here. Intact, you are here simply because one spermatozoa out of 6 million fused with a particular ovum which happened to the one ovulation pushedbout at that beautiful time.

Like God's Omniscience does not take the particular fusion of spermatozoa and ovum into knowledge.

Anyway, i've said this before and frank317 has repeated, i think you should think deeply on this issue.
Read the thread again, hopefully you will realize your logical flaws.

I've also told you that most Christians isolate omniscience when talking about this issue because it just doesn't add up, they believe that God has the will to know, but doesn't as it will be unfair and his emotions expressed in the bible will be put to question.
Even if i still have an issue with this, you can stick with this for now or read up for any logical opinion about this issue, so as not to tag "confused" outside when trying to explain this to someone else, because i know you very well, you hardly talk like this, maybe it's the "Faith" thing that's causing this issue as usual.

Kay17:
I noticed they have reasons for their respective conclusions, however, did it occur to you whether they were correct in their reasoning?

Haven't you noticed that the belief in God especially in the service of religion is an ideology. An outlook towards life that fuels itself. A false and biased lens with which the world is looked at.

Look at Deepsight's reasoning for the existence of a God that a material universe requires a cause and necessarily the cause must be immaterial. Meaning the cause must not be material which is merely a negative property without any further insight to the nature of the cause. Other descriptives include transcendental (which is equally a negative property).

Let's test the strength of the argument structure by analogy. There is a material box that requires a cause, therefore the cause must be immaterial.

Invariably Deepsight's argument carries hidden assumptions about the universe and more about the cause.

Aquinas on the other hand assumes two substances and uses the second substance to justify the first. If you were thoughtful enough you would have inquired why both the primary and secondary substances are necessary at all.

Again the common thread between both Aquinas and Deepsight is the ideology they both share which generates the hidden assumptions that fuel their premises as well as conclusions. Both will never address Being as a proper open question.

What changes if this cause is material?

shadeyinka:
I am not insinuating that the Producers of BBNiger has any form of foreknowledge. I am stating the obvious:

The fact that you produced a Reality TV does not imply pre-choosing who the winner will be. Your claim is that since God produced the Theater of Man, He must certainly have doctored each persons act. No

Foreknowledge isn't Predestination
Predestination isn't Foreknowledge

Both are exclusive with respect to my God.

If you still have a problem with that, no problem its your choice and I can't change that.

I've always told you that you were misrepresenting my points.
frank317 has replied this appropriately.

1 and 2 can't occur iff
a. I don't exist
b. I am Physical

BUT
"I AM" suggests that I exist and since I am not subject to time and space, I am not Physical.

therefore my point holds.

Was there a time before the creation of the universe where your God resides?
If so, do you think there would be any existence without "TIME"?
Existence can't be without time.

I see you've brought the immateriality concept of God, to talk about space.
The fact that something is immaterial does not mean it's without a location(That is if it exists).

Light for example is mass-less and not classified as matter in physics, but it's existence is subject to space, not so?

Is the residence of God without Location.

Existence and space/time are mutually exclusive

Recheck your definition of time and space to understand what i'm saying.

When people say God is outside of space and time, i don't think they mean it literally, but they think he transcends it(time/space of this universe).

You speak and argue as one.
So, what are you?

I'm a freethinking deist.

shadeyinka:
It is indeed like watching a pre-released movie.
God isn't subject to time, hence He can move to and fro within events past , present or future.



A few weeks ago, the BBNigeria reality TV series was initiated and concluded. Are you insinuating that the Producers, Directors and the Sponsors had already decided from inception that Efe will win the grand prize?

I addressed this already.
The producers don't know the outcome of their production, therefore it's not foreknowledge.

I think what I mean is like this. God gave the general rules, He initiates the program but it is a COMPETITION a SELECTION!

Does not change Foreknowledge, Predestination and Illusion.

My point is to show that there are other means of information and knowledge without need for cognition, deduction or experience. Such is the rhelm of God who can know things yet to be without having to predestinate it.


Wrong answer!

If you were not subject to time and space, then
1. You can be everywhere and anywhere at the same time
2. You can know everything Past, Present and Future

If i am not subject to time and space, then i am outside of time and space, therefore 1 and 2 can't occur.
Think on this.

The above is just your perception.

Judgement based on foreknowledge alone is unfair

I knew this was your problem.

I would never see you as deluded even if we see things from different point of view.

Thanks.
You're not like KingEbukasBlog

Talking about perception.

1. Logically, order can never come out of chaos without an external influence.
2. Logically, order cannot spontaneously exist out of nothing

The Order in the fine details of the universe stands seriously against your judgement.

Atoms are Ordered.
From atoms, everything you see as reality including your brain matter were made.

How did atoms came to be ordered?

The answer can only lead you to God!

We can reorient our perception if we ask the right questions

I don't think you know 4kings.
I'm not an atheist ooo.

KingEbukasBlog:
You are just asking random questions which gives you the illusion of skepticism . Anyway , whatever the reasons why those bones were said to be those of John the Baptist by the experts must have been very strong and valid .

Can you imagine, you didn't even search on this extensively, you just bought into it, since it supported Jesus Christ. SMH

Joseph died in Egypt but he was buried in Shechem .So what exactly is your point ?

This was recorded, wasn't it.
You better bring up better point.

Expert 4kings can tell the scientists they have no idea about what they have chosen to embark on . I think they'll see the point you are making and stop the research immediately .

Stop being sly, mentioning "scientists".
I don't need to be an expert to know that the half life of a dna is only about 500years.

Its right there in the bible that Elizabeth and Mary are related . It was also mentioned in the article . I mean you are always confused and strongly deluded so I'm certain you didn't just want to accept the truth .

Luke 1:36
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

The original greek text used here indicated "relative" rather than cousin, this is also used in most other versions of the bible.

Moreso, if John and Jesus indeed were cousins, then how do you explain Luke 7:18-23.
Why would John not know who is cousin is?

Don't worry soon you'll be talking like you were beside Eusebius while he was forging the story of Jesus

Don't worry, i don't need to attack the veracity of the books of Eusebius to debunk this issue.

KingEbukasBlog:
This delusion is strong oo . Popular atheist C S Lewis after studying the evidential truth of the existence of Christ on earth renounced atheism and became a Christian . Prior to the abjuration of his atheistic beliefs he denigrated Christ because he thought Christ was a fictional Character . Same with numerous atheists over the centuries .

Historians no matter the religious affiliation agree that Christ is a historical figure , the only contentious issue is his divinity .

Currently scientists have teamed up with religious scholars to discover the DNA of Christ and then his descendants who are currently alive today (Jesus had brothers remember? ) . They also said to have discovered the bones of John the Baptist which would help them in their search since John was Christ's cousin . Experts have analyzed artifacts including Shroud of Turin - which is believed to have been used to wrap Jesus before his resurrection - and the Sudarium of Oviedo

(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4419810/Scientists-religious-scholars-hunt-DNA-JESUS.html)

Peter lived 30 years after Christ had died and wrote his own letters yet you believe some of Christ's stories were made up . Christ does not need to write stories about Himself . People rarely wrote autobiographies , its mostly others were are inspired by their works that pen down biographies .

In China , Chinese scholars compiled a series of writings called the 21 Histories , an official biography of the Han Dynasty and of each Dynasty which included stories , stats , census figures and chronicles of the wars fought . The Emperors , the warlords , the generals never wrote this biographies , the scholars did years after these events happened . But you don't have the audacity to impugn the veracity of these stories , do you ?

What about stories of Confucius who lived 500 years before Christ ? Chi Shi Huang Ti in his attempt to unify China around 210 BC destroyed so many works and written documents about Confucius yet his legacy survived . But no militant atheist against religion bats an eye or even questions the truth about the surviving stories on the life and teachings of Confucius . And Millions of Chinese people are Confucians .

But humble Christ who taught love and deplored hatred and enmity remains the most controversial figure in history .

Anyway , keep on feeding your mind with lies , reassuring yourself with false nonsense and keeping up with the hypocrisy - that's the only way you can remain mentally enslaved

What sort of delusion is this?
I had to read the link you posted, their tests is based of bones that they somehow thought was from John the Baptist. SMH
Guess what this bones were found in Bulgaria.
Where the Bleep was John the baptist slaughtered according to the Bible.
Accoridng to livescience.com, this bones was traced to be of middleeastern descendants however, so far that's the only reason they somehow linked this to John the baptist.

How did the remains of a man slaughtered by a king get to Bulgaria.

That's not even the main issue, DNA decays rapidly overtime, so how the bloody hell, could someone think of getting the dna of jesus family.
Moreso, John the baptist was not related to jesus, Joseph and Mary were from the tribe of Judah, and Zechariah and Elizabeth were of Aaron (Levites).
I don't want to even go any further, abeg stop cracking jokes.

shadeyinka:
With due respect, you are the one misrepresenting points.

Hmmm, am i?

Cognition is a process of knowing a thing:
Foreknowledge isn't a process. It is like haven watched a "pre-release" of a movie.

What you are saying is that because God watched the pre-release movie of the earth, He wrote the script!

If you can prove that all who watched a movie premiere wrote the script, then you have a point.

Don't you get the point.
If this is solely the case of just watching the pre-released movie, then i'm ok with cancelling out predestination.
I even addressed this with your time traveler example.

But the issue here is that, this movie was initiated by God, therefore all events in this movie were initiated by God(Predestination!!!).
If i am omnipotent and i have a series of events in mind(or a movie), we can say this is foreknowledge, if i then bring this movie into reality then i created this series of events. So simple as A,B,C.
This is different from your airplane inventors example, which is just an example of human cognition taking place.So i didn't misrepresent any point, i addressed your points appropriately.

I believe you have heard of the word "intuition" before?
How does a bird know that its supposed to brood on her eggs?
How does a female rabbit know that she is supposed to nurse her blind offsprings? Etc

This is just a proof that knowing doesn't have to come from experience. How much more God the creator!

Why are you mixing the point up, intuition also causes KNOWLEDGE, the only difference here, is that it is not gotten from conscious reasoning. So this does not in anyway affect the issue at hand.

A question for you: and please answer it truthfully
What is the implication if you are not subject to time space?
Not one bit!

Then i cease to exist.

Suppose as a teacher of 100 students, I decided to promote 20 students and demote 80 students based on no criteria of selection. Am I fair to the students?

You by this claim that tests isn't necessary in omniscience, however if God decided to create humans and without giving you a chance condemned you to hell based on His foreknowledge, would you say the judgement is fair?

You really don't get it.
If indeed it's Omniscience then this tests and results were all foreknown.
This does not change the issue.
I also addressed this in the "baby playing with toys" example.

Is it possible to claim that prisoners are free while you keep the prison gates locked. If they are free indeed, then they must be able to decide where they want to go.

That's why all our actions are based on ILLUSION if indeed we are in this situation.

Volition MUST be tested and God is Just

This is your problem, you are of the idea that your God is Just.
You know the implication of this issue on that idea, therefore you've unconsciously subjected yourself to selective perception bias.
Well who knows i might be wrong and deluded, but hopefully we would find out soon, addressing this logically.

KingEbukasBlog:
4kings is one confused human being

because.....

Blogthug:
NUD Nigerian union of Deists, or u can add my number 07034362071 so we can discuss better on whatsapp. I repeat, no model has refuted Big Bang because of the Strong evidences supporting it CMB , Cosmic inflation and 2nd law of thermodynamics if any has we will be hearing of their Nobel Prize, this is a FACT !

Wilson and Penzias discovered the cosmic microwave background radiation.
This made them win the nobel prize because this radiation was predicted by Robert Dicke to have occurred after the big bang, therefore making it pass as a supporting fact for the big bang theory.

Among scientists this pass a "win" for the Theory, but not evidence per say that the Bigg Bang is actually a fact.
String theory and Newton's law of universal gravitation for example, that were once widely accepted by scientist(as a valid Theory, however), also made prediction that appeared to support it.

The main pillars of the Big Bang Theory which are Singularity and Inflation, still has not been properly explained to construe the big bang as a fact.
Nobody has won a nobel prize to proof the big bang yet(like you claimed), if not a new model will not even be an issue here.

Do you even understand this cosmic background radtion very well?

Even at that you can read James R Rajan view about CMBR and big bang evidence, here: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-cosmic-background-radiation-evidence-for-the-Big-Bang

I started this big bang discussion with the fact that the idea is currently debated with the new models i encouuntered a while ago, even at that the big bang itself is not fully proven because of the lack of explanation for Sigularity and Inflation, which are its strong pillars.

I never said that the universe does not have a beginning or that it does.
This was my exact word:

This "scientific evidence" is currently debated.
So it's not valid for this argument, at the moment.
I'm not an atheist oo, but using that theory is not valid anymore for this kind of debate, at-least for now.

I was being openminded to the maths of these claims.

But from your first reply, it appears that you are not even ready to accept or even consider a contrary view since it attacks your belief(dogma) just like KingEbukasblog, this is not scientific.
I don't fully understand the maths behind this theories yet, i will take an online course after my first degree, but for now, i employ you to search about this yourself, and check if you can find any evidence that makes big bang a fact or if anyone has ever one a nobel prize for proving the big bang theory, like you claimed, then you can come and post your thoughts here.

I am in the middle of my final semester examinations so i don't have time to keep going back and forth in this debate.
If you don't understand that the Big Bang is a theory(a valid one however) just like Einstien general relativity or string theory, and it is subjected to further testing and other contrary models before it can become a fact then sorry for you.

Like i said, my semester examination started this week, so i don't have the luxury of debating in futility, here on nairaland. So go search about the big bang extensively and the quantum equation model i brought up, then hopefully you would come with a valid point.

---

I've saved your number, i will contact you at a later date.

shadeyinka:
Your argument is like saying that the inventors of Aeroplanes are guilty of the death of several thousands since air travel began. After all, if they didn't create the Plane, people wouldn't die from air crash!

Did the inventors know that people will die from their invention?

If you are in affirmation that the builders of Planes are guilty, then maybe God is also guilty (according to you), then case closed.

If you can prove that Airplane inventors DID NOT know that people will die, then you have a point. Otherwise, suggest logical why the inventors of airplanes still went ahead

Foreknowledge is distinct from Predestination.

Always misrepresenting the point!

You're trying to compare Human Cognition with Omniscience.
From mere human cognition i know what could happen from building an aircraft, and this is due to uncontrollable factors like unexpected engine failure, pilot's carelessness and so on.
But the missing fact is that i don't know for sure that these could happen, there are only a logical consideration that comes to mind.

However, An Omniscience being is aware of the exact second the plane took off, the exact second an engine fails, the exact second each and everyone dies.

Omniscience cannot do away with predestination in this case, because events foreknown MUST occur.
However, on the basis of human cognition future events are are only considerations of what MIGHT occur.

I hope this clears the issue.

Prepared procedure!

1. Objective: Gods Need of freebeings who will Love and Serve Him
2. Create Freebeings
3. However, true freedom must involve exercise of individual freewill of choice to conform or not
4. Freewill must be tested to separate desired characteristics
5. Tests involve several scenarios for which the exercise of choice is made.
6. Compliant freebeings are separated for His use and uncompliant creatures are discarded.

What procedures do you think you will use if you were given the power to create bacterial culture who have freedom to obey or disobey you?

Do you not realize that the mere fact of bring up TESTS attacks God's OMNISCIENCE?

If this was the case then God is not Omniscient and he does not know the end results from the beginning.
If this is true then your illustrations is OK.

---

Happy Easter by the way.

DoctorAlien:
Both relative dating as well as radiometric dating are based on assumptions. Therefore, their conclusions cannot be trusted.

Hmmm, are biblical dating not also based on relative dating.
Can you tell me what distinguishes biblical dating from any other?

My point is, those civilizations never existed which were said to be around the time of the flood, or even before Adam.

Blogthug:
your first link was an Ad futuris fallacy which u gullibly hold as true

First of all, why do you have to be rude, especially over stuff you are totally wrong about.

, it even clearly stated " could " there, guess u didn't see that, no model so far has been able to refute or explain origin of the universe better than the Big Bang

Which first link are you talking about?
The first link i posted talks about a model that outrightly debunks the Big Bang.
The second link on the other hand, talks about another theory(Large Hadron Collider in Black holes) that could also debunk the big bang.
I guess you clicked on the second one, for you to type this nonsense.
I don't even have the time to address your fallacy issue, here.

because of the strong evidences supporting it with discovery of CMB in 1978 that got the discoverers Wilson and Penzias a Nobel Prize.

For goodness sakes, do you really think i can talk about the big bang without knowing Wilson and Penzias.
Abeg stop arguing with outdated information.

I have read Hawkins lecture on beginning of the universe where he tried to describe what happened prior to Big Bang with lots of probability statements ( could, would, should) and mere personal opinions which again u took to heart,

Wetin this guy dey yarn sef.

Hawkings used Einstien theory of general relativity, Quantum theory and logical deductions to come to the conclusion that the universe and time had a beginning in the big bang.

Abeg can you show me where he used ( could, would, should), in coming to his conclusion among the two links i posted.

by the way there is something called Presuppositional fallacy , look it up,

Irrelevant.

Hawking's is a good physicist but he is surely terrible when it comes to philosophy, even appealing to him during a philosophical discuss is a fallacy ,

Wowww, anyway i brought up a science issue on time and big bang, this seems to be Hawking's specialty not "philosophy".

I suggest u read WLC instead .

Hmmm

since our universe (time space matter) had a beginning

I wonder how you arrived at these conclusion after giving you relevant articles to read up.

for your other questions, join NUD on whatsapp 07034362071

all codes of known origin are a product of intelligence, the DNA is code therefore The DNA is a product of intelligence

deductive logical inference

Mr. Man, it is apparent that you did not understand my posts.
What i said does not attack Intelligent design in any way. That was why i asked you those questions to make sure you understood the terms i used.
Next time try getting well informed before you pick up an argument.

---

And what's NUD, i don't like groups very well.

DoctorAlien:
How were the antiques dated? Who wrote the civilization history? Were they eyewitnesses? Was any of the people who wrote the history there when those civilizations existed?

Chronological relative dating.
And also scientific method in some cases.

what's your point?
Are Biblical histories dated differently from any other?

shadeyinka:
I chuckled not a little on reading your post


I have put in bold the attribute of God from your post.

You don't have to believe it.

I see that its not that you do not understand the bolded, but you question the possibility.

That's OK!

What is important is for you to know what Thesists believe.

Have you ever considered the implications of Time-travel in science fictions?

It means you can go back and forth in time. Seeing details that even the participants never saw...

For simplicity, let's assume you time-traveled to Nigeria of 1960 and you saw firsthand all what led to the Nigerian Civil war, the participants, secret documents, false information's, propagandas etc.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?

If your answer is NO!

Suppose using the same mechanism, you travelled to the future into the year 2050 and you found that Nigeria was no more, decimated by a civil war where chemical and biological warfare were used freely.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?


So, you see,Foreknowledge IS Separate from Predestination

Your illustration again, is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.
If it's just that then ofcourse, the time-traveler didn't cause or predestinate those events.

But if this time-traveler had the power to create Nigeria and its citizens and foresaw these events, then went on to create Nigeria, then we can conclude that he was the one who initiated or precipitate this events.

So like you said,
any present choice you make is foreknown by God
..perfect if you can time travel.

So any "present" choice made during the time-line was foreknown and caused by the time-traveler.

You are coming up to speed.
If God didn't create Adam, Adam wouldn't have fallen with the entire human race.

So, Why did God go ahead knowing that?

SELECTION!

The creator of the human race prepared a procedure to sieve "useless free beings" from "useful free beings"


Since you now know, choose!

What is this "prepared procedure"?

DoctorAlien:
How were those civilizations dated?

Antiques and civilization history.

Blogthug:
what's this? did u not hear me say that the scientists that discovered evidences supporting Lemaitre's Big Bang won Nobel prizes? google it and research for yourself, well except they did the debate in your fathers compound lol

How recent is this your information?

Do yourself a favour and go through this link.
https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/11489442/Big-Bang-theory-could-be-debunked-by-Large-Hadron-Collider.html

And next time you do not have to be rude, especially when you are not well informed on what you're arguing about.

Even at that, Stephen Hawkings has a different view about the beginning of time and big bang.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-the-universe.html
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

only few deists believes in impersonal creator actually, reason is because of evidences supporting intelligent design, and intelligence can only come from a mind, think about the information process in a DNA code . these and many more evidences for Intelligent design even help convinced late former renowned Atheist philosopher Anthony flew ( noted for redefining atheism as lack of belief) into dumping atheism for deism

study renowned deistic philosophers most didn't believe in an impersonal creator , an impersonal creator automatically refutes the idea of Intelligence design which is part of the core beliefs of deism, intelligence can only come from a mind , so u made a false dichotomy, it doesn't hav to either be impersonal or personal when it's a supernatural entity we talking about here

Before i reply these posts appropriately, let me ask you few questions to know if u understand what you're saying.

1)What distinguishes a personal God from an impersonal God.
2)What do deists think about God's intelligence.
3)How does this(answer 2), affect Deists believe in a non-interventionist God.
4)What distinguishes INTELLIGENT DESIGN from CREATIONISM.
5) Finally, please name some self proclaimed deist philosophers you know that believe in a personal God and state why or what made you think they held on to this believe.

shadeyinka:
We were conversing on Foreknowledge and Predestination. You seemed to say having a foreknowledge is tantamount to causing the chaos on the earth.

Foreknowledge is just an ability to know future events. QED
Your present choices are under your control. The fact that God knows does not make you unaccountable for your actions.

You could have made God foreknow the good about you if you chose your present actions wisely.

Back to your so called logical fallacy:

It isn't the foreknowledge of pain that caused the pain of the injection. What caused the pain was my present action of injecting myself. I didn't manufacture (ordain) the pain. If I didn't know injections pain but I still injected myself, I will feel the pain isn't it.

Abeg wetin be this?

You could have made God foreknow the good about you if you chose your present actions wisely.

This does not make any sense.
Are we still talking about the same "Foreknowledge" or is your understanding of foreknowledge a misnomer for another term?

How can you make such statement.
If God's knowledge is dependent on man's present actions then it's not foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge means that he is supposed to know the end from the beginning.
Therefore, there is a fixed pattern of event known from the beginning that is not supposed to change no matter what.

So any present choice you make is foreknown, if this be the case then your thought of freedom of choice is but an illusion.
And your choice does not in anyway affects God's foreknowledge.

It isn't the foreknowledge of pain that caused the pain of the injection. What caused the pain was my present action of injecting myself. I didn't manufacture (ordain) the pain. If I didn't know injections pain but I still injected myself, I will feel the pain isn't it.

Again, wetin be this.
It also isn't foreknowledge itself that caused Adam's creation and fall. But God's action of creating Adam despite the foreknowledge.

And for your last statement(@bolded), God is an all-wise and all-knowing God, so that doesn't count.

Wilgrea7:
OP.... i really don't see the reason why you should conpare Jesus to Buddha.... Buddha never claimed to be a divine being... he was simply “the enlightened one" whereas Jesus is divine

The OP is talking about "Historical Evidence"

I don't have time to go through the link, but from the person behind this i know it will be a waste of time.

shadeyinka:
Foreknowledge is an attribute of God. Just like intelligence is an attribute of Man. Without foreknowledge, God is no better than man in scope, time, space and power.



NO Sir!
If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of the evil freewill will cause and still went ahead to create it simply means that there exist an overall good (Gods final objective) from the chaos.



In the example of the reality TV I used, don't forget that like God, the Producer selected the participants, gave the rules of the game and ultimately judge the participants. Still yet, with that amount of control, he doesn't write their speeches.

So, you see.. the example was perfect. The producer even sponsors the events.

In foreknowledge, God knew that Adam would fall and chaos will result. But Gods foreknowledge also knew that a deserable set of the humans will survive the infection of sin.

For the sake of those people, worthy to be called Gods sons, God allowed evil to prevail.





Foreknowledge is absolute

Every reality game has rules. Without rules Adam would had no fault. If Adam was not told of the forbidden fruit and he ate of it, then God will be at fault for not warning him.

Foreknowledge is about a pre knowledge of YOUR FINAL CHOICES, its not about CONTROL

Shadeyinka you really surprised me with this logical blunder, or are you being intentionally evasive:

If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

Yes, of-course.
Please what other answer can you possibly have for this?

Without injecting yourself there wouldn't be any pain. Your other purpose for curing malaria does not change the fact that you created or caused the PAIN.

It has now become clear that you are looking at this one-sided or just being evasive.
Chineke!!!!!

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Please think on this a little more, before you reply.

shadeyinka:
Actually, this your statement


Show that you didn't understand any of my explanations.

A plan isn't foreknowledge: a plan is more of a predestination and
Positioning of toys according to plan is also a kind of predestination.

Foreknowledge is the ability to observe the future (events yet to occur)
Predestination is the ability to fix the outcome of events in future.

Let me explain with reality TV again:
1. The objective of reality TV series is to select winners having a certain desired trait
2. For this to be, there are challenges introduced by the producers for the purpose of eliminating the undesired participants.
3. No one writes the scripts for each participant (freewill)
4. If perchance the producers could watch the final recording even before the participants are assembled (through a new scientific invention of a time machine), then they have a foreknowledge of winners and losers.
5. The fact that the producers have a foreknowledge does not imply that they gave a script (predestination) to the participants AND they do not control/decide who wins and who looses.



Omniscience simply means knowledge NOT subject to timeline (past, present and future). Foreknowledge is a subset of omniscience (future).

Just like
1. The objective of man creation is to select winners having a certain desired trait
2. For this to be, their are challenges introduced by the producer(GOD) for the purpose of eliminating the undesired participants.
3. No one decides (writes the scripts) for each human being (freewill). Each human has his freedom of choice.
4. Since God had "watched the final recording" even before creation, then He has a foreknowledge of each mans actions
5. The fact that God has a foreknowledge does not imply that he predetermined a persons choices (predestination) AND thus does not control/decide who wins and who looses.

Perfectly LOGICAL

The only problem I see is you shutting out the feasibility of foreknowledge as a subset of omniscience.

I see you're trying to disassociate foreknowledge from plan, from the first example i gave.
But this question by frank317 should clear the air:
What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill?

I gave you a perfect illustration:

Let's say you are that powerful and you are to create a universe with a time-line and you know what would happen in the beginning and end of that time-line and then you went ahead to create it, this very act means nothing in that time-line should surprise you or change from your EXPECTATION.

From this simple illustration, you should have realised that if your God knows what would happen and went ahead to create it, then he has foreordained the subsequent series of events.

You are wrong to use your "Producer - reality tv show example", because in that illustration he only has the opportunity to see what would happen, but he never initiated this events.

With God's foreknowledge, there was no way Adam couldn't have fallen, NO WAY.
Now, the very act of creating Adam shows he has initiated and foreordained this series of events that is to take place out of his foreknowledge.

Let me ask you this question:
Does God's foreknowledge include himself interacting and warning people?
That is, did he foresee himself warning Adam?

If yes:
What's the need for God to warn Adam if he knew what would happen, or is there any need to warn about life and death(towards salvation) if he knows what would happen?

KingEbukasBlog:
What kind of garbage is this you posted as a rebuttal . Deism posits that God orchestrated creation of the universe but does not intervene with His creation .

Mister man go and find out where you belong and stop claiming to be a deist upandan I strongly doubt you know what deism is . I thought you said you are now a free thinker ? Seems like you freely spewed this garbage all by yourself

I really don't like labels or grouping myself to a sect because of this kind of situation.

But let me ask you, have you asked or read on deists websites on how this orchestration may have taken place?
I follow some deists site(like deism.com and positivedeism.com even patheos.com) and also feeds tagged with deism on Quora and other online forums and i have observed that most consider this God as an IMPERSONAL BEING.
If this is the case then this "orchestration" is not thought as, the same way you are thinking about it.

Deists have different opinions on some issues, that's why i didn't want to attack your ignorant post straight up.

KingEbukasBlog:
Then God has the freedom of will . Its by God's will that the universe exists in the first place ; if he didn't decide to cause the existence of the universe then it wouldn't have existed . Its by his will that the universe exists . Therefore , since God has the freedom of will , its logical to conclude that God through his freedom of will should and can intervene in the affairs of man and the universe .

And that's where deism bleeped up

What rubbish is this?
You of all people should know the concept of a personal and impersonal God and also know a word called "random".

Most deists agree God has an impersonal attributes, and not a mind of his own in the sense you are looking at it from.

The cause of the creation of this universe is from an impersonal force and not a fully anthropomorphic being.
If this cause does not have personal attributes, then it can't initiate plans on his own and this universe was caused by necessary(possibly random) events that made it the way it is.
I hope you've been cleared.

Shadeyinka, this statement,

"Don't forget that God Himself created the Forbidden Tree/Fruit. For what purpose? It is an Examination-a test."

proves that you've not gotten what i'm trying to explain.

God knew about the test he was going to set and the outcome. Didn't he?
This alone should end this case but let me try to explain from events you've probably observed:
It's just like a child playing with her toys, setting them up in different scenarios for different roles.
The child has a plan in mind(foreknowledge) and positions her toys accordingly(predestination).

Whether this scenario looks like a test does not change the fact that that was what the child(God in this case) had in mind and then went ahead to bring it to reality.

That child would also express emotions in this scenarios and this does not change the fact that she wanted it to play in that manner(predestination).

I hope this settles your "purpose and emotion" issue.

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Shadeyinka other theists i discuss with don't fully incorporate omniscience when arguing for freewill, because it's just simply ILLOGICAL.
I'm surprised that you hold on to this, and don't see any error with it.

Let me give another quick illustration;
Let's say you are that powerful and you are to create a universe with a time-line and you know what would happen in the beginning and end of that time-line and then you went ahead to create it, this very act means nothing in that time-line should surprise you or change from your EXPECTATION.
With this simple explanation i hope you would think harder and stop fully incorporating "OMNISCIENCE" when arguing for freewill, next time.

KingEbukasBlog:
Is it possible for the universe not to exist ? Is possible that the universe could have been designed differently ?

Yes

KingEbukasBlog:
Bro , one question , Does God have the freedom of will ?

No. Its a necessary being.
If God is omniscient then it has no free will.
If God exists outside of time, then he also does not have free will here.

Anonynymous, Uyilredia and Deepsight what do you think?

shadeyinka:
I didn't say God had a time machine. I just used a SciFi language figuratively. Meaning : God has a way of knowing the future before it happens.

Every teacher know that students will break school rules yet they admit more and more students. Why? Because in school, pupils are expected to be trained and reformed as they progress. Now, when some students break the rules, the head teacher get upset.

The world is a kind of reality school. You learn, you mature but at the end of the day, you make your final choices. The Head Teacher (God) reserves the right to His feelings about your behavior/misbehaviour.


If that is the case, God doesn't have the right to be angry or to judge sin. Like, no farmer gets angry because his chickens deficated all about the poultry (aren't chickens not programmed to eat and deficate about?). Unlike pets that are trainable (dogs, cats).

You are not programmed my friend. You are a product of your choices.
God says "There is a choice between life and death you will have to choose from....Choose life that you may live". It is an advise.




It isn't a misrepresentation.
Free will as a gift to man is absolute.
The implication of free will is that some will rebel against God. Some will become evil.

BUT

Some will live a life of LOVE and RIGHTEOUSNESS. Such are the ones God will select for Himself at the end of time.

The world is a process of selection.
Your choice!

God didn't create the universe because of man. He created all things for His own needs.

You are boundbin time. Gods isnt.!

A being not bound by time could technically time-travel. Dontbyou think so?

Shadeyinka did God know Adam would eat the fruit of knowledge even before warned him?
I guess your answer should be yes, right?
If so his feelings here of anger was just a play in the game of Eden.

Now you might insist that he didn't predestine Adam, or from your understanding "lead Adam step by step" towards that action, right?

But consider this, according to most Christians, the world is not perfect and men would go to hell because of the fall of Adam, your God knew about this, beforehand and still created Adam.
He therefore created this series of events that he foreknew. Hope you get me.

shadeyinka:
Its a movie where actors improvise along the way: a play without script. I believe you have watched reality TV series. But let's assume God has a time machine and has watched the play out even before the actors were assembled LOL!

Hmmm, so you mean God has a time machine to give him insight on Moses action and yet he got angry and sought to kill him because of disobedience that he was aware of already(Exodus 4:24-26) or knew the Israelis would disobey him but threatened them in Deuteronomy?
Was your God playing pretend?

Do you think in your reality that you are acting a script?
Let's assume God exists, do you feel you are remotely teleguided?
If your answers are negative, it is a proof you are an independent entity: free to do anything, free to choose and free to think. You have NOT be programmed...BUT God has a preview of your life because He is not bound by time (you are).

If an Omnipotent being were to program your live without you being aware of it, then it is very much possible.

How can you (as an Engineer/Inventor/Scientist) create Cars, Planes and Space Ships when you definitely know that thousands will die if their is an accident? And accidents are inevitable!

The same answer my friend.

This is just a pure misrepresentation of my point.

Accidents in this case are inevitable because the engineer clearly has no control over this, on the other hand, your God is Omnipotent and knows about the implications of creating man.

Blogthug:
remember even as classic Deists don't believe in God intervening with humanity, we cannot say if God doesn't after we die.

Does your definition of God have a mind of his own or is it solely an impersonal creator as most deists think?

Blogthug:
we know from Nobel Prize winning scientific evidences that the universe (time space and matter) began to exists 13.8 billion years ago after the Big Bang , and we deduce that since its evident that our universe is not eternal, the cause will be timeless, spaceless and matterless hence supernatural, and God (capital G) by definition has those attributes

now if u claim not to know what caused the universe, are u Open minded to the idea that it could be God?

This "scientific evidence" is currently debated.
So it's not valid for this argument, at the moment.
I'm not an atheist oo, but using that theory is not valid anymore for this kind of debate, at-least for now.

shadeyinka:
Foreknowledge is very different from predestination.

Foreknowledge is like watching a Movie the 3rd or 4th time. You can predict what the actors would do at any time yet, you didn't write their script.

Predestination however is like a Movie Script Writer/Director who decided what each actor will say even before he casts them.

This movie was PRODUCED by God.
Whatever should be in this movie, he knows(foreknowledge), because he produced it(predestination).

Did God know that Adam will Fall? Yes (Foreknowledge)
Did He predestin it? No! (Else Adam will not be not guilty of any sin).

For goodness sake, how can you acknowledge the fact that God definitely knew adam would fall and still created him, and yet you can't link this to predestination.

shadeyinka:
Yes, He did!

Your next question:" then why did he go ahead creating man....especially knowing that man would fail woefully"?

Selection based on Qualification

Foreknowledge is NOT the same as Predestination

How is foreknowledge different from predestination in this context?

Are you telling me that he foreknew Adam's fall but did not predestine it, huh?
Or that he foreknew Jesus's coming but did not predestine it?
I don't get the logic behind your statement, please explain.