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Image123:
5solas
Obviously, the days you refer to were shortened so that the 'elect' wouldn't be deceived. That means then that the possibility exists, or there'll be no purpose for shortening.
May I ask, some of the churches written to in Revelation 2&3, is it possible that some lost their salvation? Or the warnings were just standard procedure/protocol?

What is the purpose for their being shortened? I answer with you: so that the elects (believers) wouldn't be deceived. Why is it necessary that they should not be deceived? So that they would be saved(not be lost). So the obvious conclusion is that salvation cannot be lost,especially as the situation that you have advanced that would cause it, cannot in fact, happen.

ikhideman
I thank you for your response and seeing the issue as I do, that it is not a process.However I almost fell off my chair when you said you don’t understand what I mean about ‘losing salvation’.
However you turned round to imply that a believer stands the risk of losing salvation, if they stop believing. To be enquired into is if a believer can actually denounce Christ. If it is possible, how does it agree with Christ’s words concerning the elects(believers)?
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Please let us remember God's word concerning dead believers (no, who sleep):
1 Thess. 4:
13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Cor 15:58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

5solas
If you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. It's that simple.
If there's no danger, what's the point of warnings. The Bible is loaded with warnings, don't lose your soul.
Posted on: April 16, 2010, 02:47 AMPosted by: 5solas

Image123

I said eternal life cannot be comparable to life savings. The reason is that you labour to get the latter. If you do not labour, you do not get any life savings, whereas you get eternal life before labouring and you are enjoined not to think your having eternal life is as a result of your labour,  because it isn't.(Eph.2:8,9.)

Please let's have your scriptural basis. It's not that simple, because life savings and eternal life are not comparable. The very fact that salvation is by grace overthrows all arguments that salvation can be lost.Salvation does not go to the fittest .''So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy'' (Rom.9:16 ). God is the Author and Finisher of the faith of those that are called.(Heb.12:2,1 Cor.1:30).God and God alone saves man (monergism) not God and man working together (synergism).

e36991
Because technically they are saved

and note "save" is a progressive verb . . .

Check this out - you're probably familiar with it

You're sailing on a cruise ship seeing the world

Out of the blues the ship breaks it hull and capsize

You end up in a raging ocean, clinging to debris, far away from dry land or the shore 

- no swimming skills, exposed to drowning, the elements, hypothermia, sharks etc

You are saved get picked up by a passing ship (i.e. offered your hand(s) to be saved pulled in)

Once on the ship if you want to remain saved reach dry land (i.e. shore) you'll have to refrain from jumping off it,

You'll have to endure (i.e. carry on through despite doubts etc) have faith in the captain and trust that the ship will make dry land

Matthew 10:22 below elucidates

. . . he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved. - Young's Literal Translation

. . . he who holds out to the End--he will be saved - Weymouth New Testament


Please do not ignore the tense of the verb ‘save’. Acts 16: 31 says:
‘And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house’. It is not said, ‘and thou shalt be in the process of being saved’ nor ‘and thou shalt have started the journey that leads to salvation’. Get my drift? Salvation is given to the believer on believing(before they have done good works) that it might be clearly shown that their salvation is not because of good works. Believers do not do good works to be saved, they do good woks because they are saved. Let our Lord sum it up in a related passage of that cited by you.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Posted by Image123
Can you lose your life savings, is it possible?


Someone once told me something similar in this connection. He said, ‘that you have gotten admission to a school does not mean you have graduated, you still have to study’.

In the case of salvation the end is given before the means. If I should call it means .
It is not said to the believer,’do this to have salvation’, it is said, ‘since you have salvation , do this’.In this connection it  is said to the student,'since you have graduated,take your studies seriously!' Of course I can lose my life saving, but not my salvation.
I do not do good works to be saved; I am saved to do good works.

Joagbaje
And if you quote chapter 10:25-31 of the same book ,don’t forget to quote verses 32-39 of the same chapter and please reflect on verse 39 ,the conclusion.

Hebrews 10
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Streetwize.

Now you are crystal –clear. I assert with you based on Eph. 2:8,9 that:  A Believer CANNOT Lose Salvation.

Joagbaje.

You could also have quoted verses 10-20 of the same chapter of the same book (Hebrews):

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

toba:
How would u describe solomons case did he loose salvation or not based on his biblical life ?

How can you even imagine Solomon lost salvation (if even salvation can be lost)?
Is Ecclesiastes (written by him) not a book of remorse? Please note his tenses.
Ecc 1
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
12 ¶ I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc. 2:
10 And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour.
11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
And His Conclusion?
Ecc.12
  13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

e36991.
I confess indeed to be full of  questions-so full of them, that I have not asked half of them. I will soon be making my assertions however. That Man was given an opportunity to save himself is often implied by many preachers in their presentation of the gospel, but it is against the whole tenor of scripture.
So also is the belief that a believer keeps himself in the faith.
I quite agree with you that the righteousness imputed to believers by faith in Christ is that righteouness which exceeds that of the Pharisees. It is also called the righteousness of faith     (Phil 3:9;Heb. 11:7 , )

Streetwize, aletheia,

You ought to elaborate so we can understand you better.

Noetic,


I wanted you to comment on the tense of the verb 'save'.Why are believers said to be saveD on believing, even when the process has barely begun.

Is the gospel the means by which God saves sinners or the means by which He gives sinners an opportunity to save themselves?

Are believers kept in the faith by God or they keep themselves in the faith?

What is that righteousness which exceeds that of the Pharisees? Is it from within us or from without us?

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?
One of the problems we have in understanding The Bible is the presuppositions we hold that are unbiblical (not to mention of course that some of us are in our natural states-unbelievers(no offence meant!)). Freewill is one of such presuppositions. It should not be confused with free agency. Freewill and Predestination cannot coexist.
Deep Sight.
Predestination is biblical while freewill is not  as rightly noted by Mazaje. These two concepts were the subject of much debate in the period of the reformation. It came to a head when Erasmus of Rotterdam who defended freewill on the Catholic side wrote his, On the Freedom of the Will. Martin Luther thundered back with his, The Bondage of the Will.
Erasmus’ definition of freewill:
—"Moreover I consider Free-will in this light: that it is a power in the human will, by which, a man may apply himself to those things which lead unto eternal salvation, or turn away from the same."—
Luther and the protestant world of his time rejected this definition and freewill itself, describing freewill as an ‘’empty term’’. Luther did not deny the ability of men to make choices(free agency ), he however stressed that such choices were  subjected to the divine will.
Hear Luther:
Sect. 26.—AND now, what if I prove from your own words, on which you assert the freedom of the will, that there is no such thing as "Free-will" at all! What if I should make it manifest that you unknowingly deny that, which, with so much policy, you labour to affirm. And if I do not this, actually, I vow that I will consider all that I advance in this book against you, revoked; and all that your Diatribe advances against me, and aims at establishing, confirmed.
You make the power of "Free-will" to be—'that certain small degree of power, which, without the grace of God, is utterly ineffective.'
Do you not acknowledge this?—Now then, I ask and demand of you, if the grace of God be wanting, or, if it be taken away from that certain small degree of power, what can it do of itself? 'It is ineffective (you say) and can do nothing of good.' Therefore, it cannot do what God or His grace wills. And why? because we have now separated the grace of God from it; and what the grace of God does not, is not good. And hence it follows, that "Free-will," without the grace of God is, absolutely, not FREE; but, immutably, the servant and bond-slave of evil; because, it cannot turn itself unto good. This being determined, I will allow you to make the power of "Free-will," not only a certain small degree of power, but to make it evangelical if you will, or, if you can, to make it divine: provided that, you add to it this doleful appendage—that, without the grace of God, it is ineffective. Because, then you will at once take from it all power: for, what is ineffective power, but plainly, no power at all?
Therefore, to say, that the will is FREE, and that it has indeed power, but that it is ineffective, is what the sophists call 'a direct contrariety.' As if one should say, "Free-will" is that which is not free. Or as if one should term fire cold, and earth hot. For if fire had the power of heat, yea of the heat of hell, yet, if it did not burn or scorch, but were cold and produced cold, I should not call it fire, much less should I term it hot; unless, indeed, you were to mean an imaginary fire, or a fire represented in a picture.—But if we call the power of "Free-will" that, by which a man is fitted to be caught by the Spirit, or to be touched by the grace of God, as one created unto eternal life or eternal death, may be said to be; this power, that is, fitness, or, (as the Sophists term it) 'disposition-quality,' and 'passive aptitude,' this I also confess. And who does not know, that this is not in trees or beasts? For, (as they say) Heaven was not made for geese.
Therefore, it stands confirmed, even by your own testimony, that we do all things from necessity, not from "Free-will:" seeing that, the power of "Free-will" is nothing, and neither does, nor can do good, without grace. Unless you wish efficacy to bear a new signification, and to be understood as meaning perfection: that is, that "Free-will" can, indeed, will and begin, but cannot perfect: which I do not believe: and upon this I shall speak more at large hereafter.
It now then follows, that Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine Majesty only: for He alone "doth, (as the Psalm sings) what He will in Heaven and earth." (Ps. cxxxv. 6.) Whereas, if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God Himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest of all sacrilege. Wherefore, it becomes Theologians to refrain from the use of this term altogether, whenever they wish to speak of human ability, and to leave it to be applied to God only. And moreover, to take this same term out of the mouths and speech of men; and thus to assert, as it were, for their God, that which belongs to His own sacred and holy Name.
But if they must, whether or no, give some power to men, let them teach, that it is to be called by some other term than Free-will"; especially since we know and clearly see, that the people are miserably deceived and seduced by that term, taking and understanding it to signify something far different from that which Theologians mean and understand by it, in their discussions. For the term, "Free-will," is by far too grand, copious, and full: by which, the people imagine is signified (as the force and nature of the term requires) that power, which can freely turn itself as it will, and such a power as is under the influence of, and subject to no one. Whereas, if they knew that it was quite otherwise, and that by that term scarcely the least spark or degree of power was signified, and that, utterly ineffective of itself, being the servant and bond-slave of the devil, it would not be at all surprising if they should stone us as mockers and deceivers, who said one thing and meant something quite different; nay, who left it uncertain and unintelligible what we meant. For "he who speaks sophistically (the wise man saith) is hated," and especially if he does so in things pertaining to godliness, where eternal salvation is at stake.
Since, therefore, we have lost the signification of so grand a term and the thing signified by it, or rather, never had them at all, (which the Pelagians may heartily wish had been the case, being themselves illuded by this term,) why do we so tenaciously hold an empty word, to the peril and mockery of the believing people? There is no more wisdom in so doing, than there is in kings and potentates retaining, or claiming and boasting of, empty titles of kingdoms and countries, when they are at the same time mere beggars, and any thing but the possessors of those kingdoms and countries. But however, this is bearable, since they deceive and mock no one thereby, but only feed themselves on vanity without any profit. But here, is a peril of salvation, and the most destructive mockery.
Who would not laugh at, or rather hold up to hatred, that most untimely innovator of terms, who, contrary to all established use, should attempt to introduce such a mode of speaking, as by the term 'beggar,' to have understood, 'wealthy;' not because such an one has any wealth himself, but because some king may, perchance, give him his wealth? And what if such an one should really do this, not by any figure of speech, as by periphrasis or irony, but in plain serious meaning? In the same way, speaking of one 'sick unto death,' he may wish to be understood as meaning, one in 'perfect health:' giving this as his reason, because the one may give the other his health. So also, he may, by 'illiterate idiot,'  mean 'most learned;' because some other may perchance give him his learning. Of precisely the same nature is this:—man has a "Free-will:" for this reason, if perchance God should give him His. By this abuse of the manner of speaking, any one may boast that he has any thing: that He is the Lord of heaven and earth—if perchance God should give this unto him. But this is not the way in which Theologians should proceed, this is the way of stage-players and public informers. Our words ought to be proper words, pure and sober; and, as Paul saith, "sound speech that cannot be condemned." (Titus ii. 7-8.)
But, if we do not like to leave out this term altogether, (which would be most safe, and also most religious) we may, nevertheless, with a good conscience teach, that it be used so far as to allow man a "Free-will," not in respect of those which are above him, but in respect only of those things which are below him: that is, he may be allowed to know, that he has, as to his goods and possessions the right of using, acting, and omitting, according to his "Free-will;" although, at the same time, that same "Free-will" is overruled by the Free-will of God alone, just as He pleases: but that, God-ward, or in things which pertain unto salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive, slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan. (Luther)

Toba.
Upon what grounds?Please elaborate.


Noetic.

If it is a process, how can anyone be saveD? No one could be saveD, until the end of the process,not to talk of ''remaining saveD''.

Thanks a lot for your response, Toba. However, you have not answered my question; Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Hi everyone,
I want us to discuss the above topic and relate it with such concepts as (but not limited to);
Foreknowledge: what is the extent of God’s foreknowledge?
Predestination: What is it? Is it biblical? How does it relate to election, reprobation? Who are the elects? Are the elects constantly changing? Can the elects be reprobates and the reprobates elects? Can one change their destiny?
What is ‘freewill’? Can ‘freewill’ and predestination co-exist?
Can salvation be by works? What is Pelagianism?
What does The Bible mean when it says, salvation is not by works, is not by the law, it is by grace, through faith?(Rom.3:28;Eph.2:8,9;Titus 3:5 e.t.c)
Can the Lord change? Does He indeed know the end from the beginning?
Can the Holy Spirit leave the believer? If yes, under what circumstance(s). If due to sin, what sin? What is the extent of persistence in this sin?
When did this teaching that a believer can lose salvation start and who were the proponents?
Can we trust the reformers and those who followed after their teachings?
What is the reformed faith? What is Calvinism?
Can salvation be both by grace and by works?(Rom. 11: 5,6)