₦airaland Forum

toba:
I heard Pastor Rod Parsley speaking on TBN, that destiny is determined by Man¬ God.He spoke extensively on this with relevant quotes from the bible.I believe on one hand&dnt on the other.
God said to Jeremiah in chapter1vs5 of his that he knew him right from the womb.Jesus was qouted in john6vs38 that he came to do the will of God that sent him.Meaning christs destiny was determined/planned by God from A-Z. Also in deut 30  vs15&19, moses charged the israelites to choose their destinies.Also Joshua in 24vs15 did same. As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?

They charged the Israelites to choose the way of the Lord, not their destinies! This distinction is important.

God.

Amen!!!

Joagbaje:
Questions like these should be avoided. If God chose to relate to us wearing agbada, we should not be asking if he wears pant or how he looks if the agbada is off.So if God relates to us as though he didn't have fore knowledge of their fall , we should not be probing into such.

Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret[ things belong] unto the our God: but those[ things which are] revealed[ belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that[ we] may do all the words of this law.

I agree with you, but not completely. The foreknowledge of God is one of the revealed things and if it is questioned, as in the original post, we should not fail to uphold it, whatever deductions men choose to make from it.

I think it is a brilliant thread. If against the babel of voices one comes to the knowledge of the truth

they should be congratulated. Congratulations Yefet.

I feel your pain. As believers we should do all we can to make sure sound doctrine is taught and the right thing done.

Have you noticed offering boxes are getting transparent? It's lamentable.

chinedumo:
what i hear u talking about is the sinners prayer. or plz could u refer to me a scripture where already saved need another grace to be saved from sin or maybe a reason why it should be so. plz rely more on scriptures than those song than might be unbalanced. any song u sing is not for everybody some are for the unsaved other are for saved. that it is been sung in church is probably 4 the saved singing it for the unsaved, encouraging then and informing then. but certainly not to be sang by the unsaved 4 the saved or the saved 4 the saved

I just so love singing the old, old songs. Please point out to me any aspect of these songs you consider unscriptural .

(Singing):


AMAZING GRACE
Amazing grace! how sweet the sound—
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind but now I see.

‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be
As long as life endures.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
‘Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

Eva Young:
God is merciful though but we should not take his mercies for granted. We should all try to strive to do our best in getting it right, though as human beings its quite difficult. But our Merciful and Caring God will enrich us and give us the strenght to move on.

Remain for Eva Young!!!







www.evayoung.biz

Amen!

Image123:
Be ye therefore PERFECT as your Father in heaven is PERFECT. Who said that? Jesus Christ.

Therefore we are perfect?

chinedumo:
Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6K[b]nowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.[/b]

7[b]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[/b]
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10[b]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.[/b]

11[b]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/b]
12[b]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.[/b]

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14[b]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.[/b]

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22[b]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[/b]
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

King James Version (KJV)

Please give me your understanding of Rom.6:1 , I believe it is so often quoted and misinterprinted especially when discussing grace.

Singing:

My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device or creed;
I trust the ever living One,
His wounds for me shall plead.

Refrain

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.

Enough for me that Jesus saves,
This ends my fear and doubt;
A sinful soul I come to Him,
He’ll never cast me out.

Refrain

My heart is leaning on the Word,
The living Word of God,
Salvation by my Savior’s Name,
Salvation through His blood.

Refrain

My great Physician heals the sick,
The lost He came to save;
For me His precious blood He shed,
For me His life He gave.

Refrain

chinedumo:
U are referring to the salvation from sin- the sinners prayer.  i am talking about making heaven not becoming born again and Faith without works is dead. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=433323.msg5918832#msg5918832

If you please, divide salvation into 3 phases or a 100, they would all still be of grace.

When believers are told of their being saved by grace, what does it mean to them? Wouldn't you expect only unbelievers to be told that?

ePAYSYSTEM:
To be candid I wonder why God in the Bible would say he regreted to have made man. The Bible also said that it pained God so much that the calamity of man became too much. If God Foreknows what will happen that way, why would he create man (Sodom and Gomorah) only to destroy them after a short period of time? Why would he create some to be thieves and some to appear innocent? why would the same mother born the good, the bad and the urgly and still read the Bible to all of them for a change? Why would there be a need for Jesus to die in the first place?

I feel God would be very wicked for deliberately making Nigeria to be a rubish heap. The meaning is that we ought not do nothing because they are all God's will to be so.

I think the doctrine of God knowing just everything should really be reconsidered.
My position is that God know anything he wishes to know. Most times, he forgoes certain knowledge at a point in time. I guess God hates wickedness, so why should he have created it? Why should he have made the devil in the first place.

There are a million and one questions not God but we need to consider before we conclude that knows or at least cares to knwo everything or not.

Wishful thinking!

Jenwitemi:
God is mean then, no? A drama king.

If he had the foreknowledge of what will happen, why then did he flip his lid and cursed everything in existence? What was the drama all about, then? From my own limited earthly knowledge, if a person has a foreknowledge of something and that something comes to pass as expected, that person undergoes very little to no emotional reactions because of the foreknowledge. Most of us are quite familiar with such instances.

If the bible god was really omniscient, then he is not supposed to react emotionally, positively or negatively, to anything that happens since he already knows the outcome. Lack of foreknowledge, surprise and shock caused by ignorance of what is to happen causes emotional reactions. So as you all can see,the garden of Eden drama tory get K-leg to say the least, unless the story is meant to be an allegory of a spiritual message that is not yet incorporated into the christian/islamic religious doctrines.

Or perhaps the bible god was just playacting and was just having himself some roaring fun pretending to be upset. Divine boredom?

Well it is a good thing you are trying to get a reconciliation of the above. It is also good to be reverent.

Now to your question, that He expressed surprise does not necessarily imply that He was ignorant,especially when you compare this passage

with several others which clearly teach His foreknowledge.

Would you say He did not know where Adam was when He asked Him, ''where are you?'' Would you say that He only just arrived in Egypt,

when He declared that He had seen the suffering of His people?

7¶ And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their

taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large,

unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the

Hivites, and the Jebusites.(Exodus 14:7,.

In this passage then that someone could cite to show He does not have knowledge of all events, He declares His foreknowledge!

I think that in such passages He tempers His words to be such as we can understand. I do such things myself, though of course , not in the

same way: I use the present participle of verbs sometimes, when I should use the past participle, when talking to children, so they would

understand me.

The Lord speaks of ''future events with as much certainty as though they were already past'' (Rom. 4:17 TLB).

(Singing)

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
unclothed, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

lagerwhenindoubt:
I am a bloody sinner, but i will make it to heaven before pastor chris 

  Just for a moment I thought you were going to end your statement with,'', , and need no common grace!''

Ever heard of the righteousness of faith?

ePAYSYSTEM:
Its popular believe that God knows everything and he foresees the future. Still, would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

God knew they would sin before creating them. It would not be wise to think or teach otherwise for the simple reason that :

1. we would be teaching falsehood-doctrinally stripping God of His foreknowledge,

2.greater and real inconsistencies would arise that would be nothing compared to the seeming inconsistency we would be trying to avoid.

BigBashiru:
I am sharing here, my statement of faith with nairalanders.

T - Total Depravity - The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

U - Unconditional Election - The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).


L Limited Atonement - This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

I Irresistable Grace - This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-. Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).

P Perseverance of the Saints - This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith. Again here is the divine promise: "And I will cause them to obey all my laws and statutes"

I am overwhelmed . Totally endorsed.

toba:
Though your questn isnt clear. Let me answer no

If you don't worship Him for fear of hell (in whole or in part), then I think I can safely conclude that you would still worship Him, even if there were no heaven or hell.

lagerwhenindoubt:
Man is created in the image of God

What man fails (ever so often) to understand that the same rules that govern heaven also govern earth.

The Angels fear and tremble in his presence. the one dude who showed some liver was brutally kicked out into hell

Fear is a primary component of a dictatorship, it is what brings out Love, Obedience, Choice and Loyalty


[b]Luke 12:5 (NIV) But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him

Ps 89:7 (NIV) In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared.

Isa 8:12-13 (NIV) , Do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread.

Job 23:13-16 (NIV) "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me."

Ps 111:10 (NEB) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding,

Prov 16:6 (NEB) , the fear of the Lord makes men turn from evil.

Ps 25:12-14 (NEB) If there is any man who fears the Lord, he shall be shown the path that he should choose; he shall enjoy lasting prosperity, and his children after him shall inherit the land. The Lord confides his purposes to those who fear him, and his covenant is theirs to know.

Phil 2:12-13 (NIV) , continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Heb 10:31 (KJV) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (he'll bi.tch-slap the bJezus out of u) [/b]

As you can see, Fear is an important component for Worshiping God, If there was no Hell, there'd be no God to worship

That we should fear God is not in doubt.

toba:
Why then do u worship him? Longtime no post hope no problem

Do you worship Him for or partly for fear of hell then?

Deep Sight:
If there is nothing after death, then each indivudual existence ends in nothingness, thus = zero (0).

If all things = zero as an end result, the pre-death equation accordingly sums up to zero.

Within a zero equation, there cannot exist anything - not to speak of a concept of good and evil.

No degree of violence or evil will be significant, since everything will culminate in zero.

Meaningfulness must thus inherently avoid the zero factor.

If we grant there’s a heaven and a hell after death, then your point is difficult to see.

Deep Sight:
Conclusively, if death leads to nothingness, or zero, morality is moot, exaggerated, purposeless and irrelevant.

This does not mean I do not appreciate goodness for goodness sake and nothing else; I am rather trying to show that a death that results in a state of nothingness is inconceivable

I find it very difficult to reconcile the statements  above.

Acts 5:41. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

They chose to suffer and rejoiced in it! Would they have gone to hell if they didn't? I think not!

imhotep:
O Lord! If I worship you[b] from fear of hell[/b], cast me into hell.

If I worship you from desire for paradise, deny me paradise.

- Rabia

Sounds familiar. I agree.

viaro:
Lol, my apologies brethren - I didn't quite notice this as I was in and out of the forum the last few hours while on another thread (Abraham Genesis 14).

A pity the last few posts were lost (but I should commend the guys behind Nairaland for their hardwork all the same - God bless them). We shall take time to consider all points argued for or against the security of our salvation.

@toluxa1, good to read from you, and thanks for your comments.

@5solas, you asked a very important question on Ananias and Sapphira. I would have loved to discuss them; but time constraints for now won't let me go into detail. Basically, I tend to think that if they were saved, the fact that they died physically on their error does not mean they had lost their salvation. This seems so to me, at least for the same reason that one might observe that even though Moses had not entered the promised land and died outside of it, he nevertheless did not lose his salvation. Maybe more later.

I am impressed by your answer.[/b]If they were saved[b]. We should be cautious and use ’IF’ even though it is very probable they were saved. I agree with you that if they were saved, they did not lose their salvation(1Cor.11:30).
Indeed we should take out time to look at both sides of the arguments.

freeman07:
As it seems today, most of us religious people, often do "GOOD" and are "RIGHTEOUS", either because we want a favour from GOD or we want to make Heaven. This Question comes to my MIND. What if we were told that theres no heaven or hell (pls, take a second to imagine it briefly), that theres no reward for Good or Evil.
WILL WE STILL DO GOOD
WILL WE STILL LOVE OUR NEIGHBOURS AS OURSELVES

It is quite an interesting question (if we grant that there is a heaven and hell) and it quickly generates another, which I have been planning to ask (what an opportunity!). WHAT IS THE MOTIVE FOR A RIGHTEOUS LIFE? Finding the answers to this question will help us answer your questions. But to answer your questions in a few words (while we continue to rub minds),we (believers) will still desire to please God (by keeping His commandments) and in truth , hell doesn’t exist for us and we are not trying to make heaven (we have made heaven!) and are waiting to enter in. Our minds and desires (our hearts) have been changed to desire to please God on our believing and we have been given the Holy Spirit to help us desire and strive after righteousness.Of course we would have to please God still to enjoy His favours and to avoid His chastisement. But it is quite a different story for the non-believer and hell exists for them.

It is quite an interesting question, I repeat, if you believe there’s a heaven and there is a hell (as there is in truth!).

Toluxa1 .
Amen , Amen. Thanks a lot for your explaination about the problem.  I was truly perplexed.
For a moment I actually forgot you. I should have realised that, the fact you were not contributing at a time, did not mean you were not reading. I apologise. You did well to goad Viaro. His posts were really to the point and  I gained a lot from them.

Image 123 and Viaro.
I am sorry I have not been able to post before now. I have been having problems with my ISPs.I am not so sure if it was a nightmare now , but I thought we were on page 5 of the thread? Whatever happened? I could read but couldn’t post and I thought Image123 was saying to you (Viaro), ‘I give up! I am tired of trying to get through to you!’(my paraphrase of course!).Viaro was saying,’ but we have only just begun!’. Whatever the case, I still want comments from you guys from other fronts. Let’s leave Judas for now, what about Ananias and Sapphira? Leaving works for now, how about the foreknowledge of God?

Image123:
viaro,
Ezekiel33 is not presenting an idea of salvation. The righteous in passage is already saved/righteous before God. My point is can a believer lose salvation and my answer is Yes. Whether he got salvation by faith or works, before Jesus or after Jesus is not the crux. Can he lose it after been found righteous/not wicked before God?
Context is vital in this because when God makes us righteous, it still becomes 'our righteousness'(compare 2Corinthians9v10 and Matthew 5v20). Infact we are made the righteousness of God. What Ezekiel is saying in other words is that the righteous shouldn't think that his evil will go unpunished, he shouldn't rest on past records. It's the context. I'll comment on other issues later

Please ask yourself the reason for the death of Christ and what it accomplished. If ‘our righteousness’ (our part) could save us, He would not have needed to come. You do not understand perhaps why Paul persecuted the apostles. If you read Gal.1-2 and Phil.3 in addition to The Acts of the Apostles, you will get a better understanding.
Paul was not the type to lie, steal, kill e.t.c (see Phil.3 and remember, he was a Pharisee!), but when the apostles started teaching that justification was by faith alone and not by obedience to the law (commandment), I am sure you can imagine his anger. He was concerned that by insisting on faith alone, the apostles were making void the law (Rom 3:31) , teaching things that would make people sin against God. That was why he persecuted them! But when he encountered Christ, he understood that the laws (commandments) that he was so zealous of protecting, had been fulfilled in Christ (Rom8:1-4) and nothing was required of him to do than to put his faith (his hope of going to heaven) in Christ.
It was not that he found God, it was that God found him (Gal.4:9, Rom.9:30-33,). It was not when he was seeking God; it was when he was destroying the works of God!
God has chosen those who would be saved before the foundation of the world. (This is the teaching of the election of persons to salvation(Eph.1:3-5)).God did not choose everyone but some (the elects) and the reason for His choice is not for any good foreseen in them (as some ignorantly claim) but out of His good pleasure.
It is not to be wondered at why God does not save all sinners, what should be wondered at is that He saves any.
The righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees is the righteousness of faith and it is that  righteousness Paul desires to be found with and not, his own righteousness!(Phil.3:9.).

Image123:
5solas
It's actually possible to 'unkeep' one's self. It's like one has been provided for and protected by a bigger body(government/parent). That person can still suffer himself or harm himself physically despite the security measures in place.
Some say that the dog that will get missing doesn't listen to the hunter's call. Jesus says I am with you always but fact remains that the sheep can stray away of his own will. The master never left, the sheep left.
Jude 21 'gives me some water to hold' by saying "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God." No doubt, God wants to keep and CAN keep, but we've got our little part to play

I am shocked that you would make statements like the above , it clearly shows you don’t understand what it means for salvation to be by grace. If it is possible for believers to [s]unkeep themselves[/s] fall and be lost , what is the whole point of Jesus’ teaching, almost throughout John 10; 6:37 and 17? It is arguments like these that keep men from the truth of the gospel. Rom. 8:28-29 says nothing can separate the believer from the love of God and when it is asserted, someone  objects and says , ‘sin was not mentioned’ ! The bible says the Holy Spirit was given to us to abide with us forever and  as a guarantee  that we will be redeemed at the end of the day, someone objects and says , ‘nevertheless He leaves on the commission of any sin’ ! The bible says the man is the head of the woman, someone objects and says,’the woman is the neck of the man’ !Such arguments amount to trifling with the scriptures. Please don’t just argue, look at the import of the  scriptures we have been bringing to your attention. We are not arguing for a show or to show we are the approved ones but to draw your attention to scriptures you must consider.Salvation is completely of grace, God will not give (or share!)His glory with puny man!