₦airaland Forum

@aletheia

The wonder of justification is that works do not come in. Whether we call them 'works of the law' or 'works of faith'. It doesn't matter where the 'works' are placed, before or after justification.

Good works are the natural response towards God of the justified/saved person.

Rom. 3:31:'' Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law''.

chukwudi44:
@Pastor agbaje
why did you think Jesus judged on works as mentioned in matt 25:32-46

I am sure that is what you would like to think, however you are so wrong.

chukwudi44:
Is it not obvious that worsks and faith must go hand in hand to achieve salvation.

No, it is not. Salvation is not attained. It is freely given. It cannot be by grace and works. It is either of grace or of works.  Na Bible de talk am.
Rom.11:6:
‘'And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work’’.

chukwudi44:
St Paul only condemed woks of the mosaic law and not works of charity,any one deceiving himself that simply beleiving in Jesus without anything to show for it will lead to salvation is simply being deceived.Even satan and his angels also beleive in Jesus.

I am so sorry, but you have been deceived. The above is an age-long lie.
Titus 3
''3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life''.

We are not saved by works of righteousness.Tell us what you think is meant by ‘works of righteousness’.

@All

They are two errors we must continually guard against - the errors of the Pelegians and that of the Antinomians. It takes the descerning believer (not to mention grace!) to avoid the two.
The former denies salvation by grace (while seeminly accepting it in its more subtle forms; semi-Pelegianism, Arminianism,e.t.c)
The latter presumes that since justification is of grace and ultimately salvation also, therefore good works have no place in the life of the believer.
If we are able to give good works their proper place in this thread at least, we would have resolved a lot of difficulties associated with faith, grace and works.
The contradition between James and Paul does not infact exist. Paul taught that salvation was by grace and not by works while James taught that a saved person can be identified by the good works they do. Jesus said the same.

I will end here for now.

@KunleOShob

Very few have grasped the dinstinctions between faith and works and herein lies at least a half of the problem we have in the interpretation of the Word.

You agree with Chukwudi then that :

faith + works = salvation  ?

The place of works, that's the issue  I was addressing.

@KunleOshob.

A wise man once said and I paraphrase, '' it shows the weakness of our position when we engage in insults rather than face issues''.

chukwudi44:
@Joagbaje

James did not say works alone=salvation,what he said is faith+works =salvation.

You will decieve yourselve if you think you are a christian but fail to show it by your works of charity.On the lastr day many praye warriors whil end up in hell because they failed to add work to their faith .The gospel tells us in matt 7:21-23.

Point of correction, Jesus did not infer  some believers would be in hell. People that would be there are non-believers, people He never  knew.

[/quote ]

author=chukwudi44 link=topic=502726.msg6638826#msg6638826 date=1282754349]
@Joagbaje

These people had faith and performed miracles but failed to make heaven .

[/quote]So false.

[quote author=chukwudi44 link=topic=502726.msg6638826#msg6638826 date=1282754349]@Joagbaje
On the last day Jesus will judge by both faith and works and not faith alone. In matt 25:31-46

Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was unclothed and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or unclothed and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, [6] you did it to me.’[/i]

41 “T[b]hen he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, unclothed and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or unclothed or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[/b][i]

Pastopr joe will you also villify Jesus by judging by works in the passage above

So falsely   interpreted,. Jesus does not need any vilifying. His judgement in this passage as in others is based on faith. Those that would go to heaven according to Him are the righteous. They are not saved because of the good works they do; rather the good works confirm they are saved. We do not do good works to be saved; rather we are saved to do good works.

Pastor AIO:
agreed. Anyone can say they have faith, but every tree that grows has it's fruits. Including faith (which is not a tree but that is just the analogy that Jesus used). And you can know it by it's fruit.
Every faith is backed by works. If you do not show love, compassion, inner joy then there is no faith in you, that faith, if it exists, is dead.

You do not do works in order to be saved, but the works is a natural consequence and a sign that you have been saved.

It is either a person has faith or they do not, it is that simple. A dead faith is no faith.
Your last statement is right on target.

Quite an interesting thread,my favourite kind of thread!

@chukwudi44
James did not say works alone=salvation,what he said is faith+works =salvation.


The above inference is clearly wrong.

^^^^
In truth, you need a dose of reformed theology.

So how do you go about saving the Creator.

@OP
The story made interesting reading. Let's have the concluding part, please.

So many posts in this thread are completly off topic, they have killed, for me, what otherwise was a lively thread. I hope the mods take note.

mazaje:
Every Christian I meet assures me that they are correctly interpreting the bible with the help of the holy spirit, but when I look around I see christians slandering each other constantly , and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teaching or doctrines, most sects like to remain adamant  and claim that only they are the correct interprets of the bible or revelation. . . . . .So how do you know which christian correctly interprets the bible?

Well Mazaje, in MHO, it would be the protestants, to be precise, the reformers (Calvinists). Read articles by the reformers, find out in particular what happened, before, during and immediately after[b] the synod of dordt.[/b]

mazaje:
^^^

Look who is talking, don't tel me that you don't know that prophet mohammed STOLE all his stories(koran) from the hebrew and christian religious texts. . .

I believe we can and should be comforted by the verses below and others like them:
1Thess.4
13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
*1Cor 15:50-58,John 14,e.t.c
God needed an angel? I don’t know the context of it, but it doesn’t sound very Biblical.

@OP
I have never read a more blatant display of ignorance.

Haba! Your statements are so sweeping, lumping leaders and followers together, for instance!

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me (Romans7:21).

Jenwitemi:
After all, they demanded to be left alone with their islamic topics, and got a separate section via death threats. So why are they still posting islamic threads in here? Modurators, can you guys shift all islamic threads to the islamic section? Why should they be posted here? Our muslim "brothers" demanded to be isolated, so let them stay isolated.

Probably they are trying to convert those who do not belong to any organized religion .

Seriously though, it is quite thoughtful of you to bring this up.

The Lord hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4.

Jenwitemi:
Big lie! God is interested in everything, and God watches whatever we all watch. Name it, and God watches it. Everything under the sun.

I agree with you. He is interested in everything under the sun. Organic and inorganic. Else He would not have control or know things that are effects of football, for example.

Jenwitemi:
What you just stated makes no sense whatsoever. God is not an author of sin, yet, he engineers everything with foreknowledge of the effects of his engineering? You are tying yourself in knots, as usual.

I perceive you are surprised, did I rock your atheistic stool? That would be a pleasure.

As usual?

@Vedaxcool.

I wonder where you got your notion of morality.

Jenwitemi:
Summarising all this in one sentence; The bible God deliberately, in full knowledge, engineered all these dramas, right.

Eeem, if that is the case, why blame Eve for the original sin? Why blame Lucifer for rebelling against this scheming God? Why are there even sins in the first place since all these dramas must exist and come to pass for the "glory" of God? Your long expose explained absolutely nothing thus far. It only infers to the whole creation as being nothing more than an interactive 3D holographic video game built to please a bored entity we call, God.

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
(http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html)

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=457697.msg6357140#msg6357140 date=1278681421] “Did God know That Adam And Eve Would Sin Before Creating Them?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.”

Ps 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power;his understanding has no limit.
Prov 5:21 - For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. . .and I will do all that I please
1 John 3:20 - . . . For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.


Scriptures like the afore mentioned leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses— “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass?

So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the crux of the question, “Why did God create Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” .To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

I was reading some articles of what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections:

1) paradise (Genesis 1-2);
2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20);
3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22).

By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross.

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The cross was planned from the very beginning
(Acts 2:23 - But God, following his prearranged plan, . . . let you murder him[christ]).
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It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many
(Matthew 20:28 - ". . . for I, the Messiah, did not come to be served. . .but to give my life as a ransom for many."
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Those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people
(Ephesians 1:4 -Long ago, even before he made the world, God chose us to be his very own through what Christ would do for us.
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Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to conclude that the Fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

Again we can come to a basic assertion that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin?

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by 'free choices' we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

_{*God bless you*}[/quote]May the Lord bless you richly for this post. I had to sit up as I started reading. It is an awesome post and reflects completely my understanding of this issue.

I expected you to have spoken with more reverence, afterall, He,   ,  ''doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? '' (Daniel 4:35 ).

chinedumo:
Christ's exact words For I say unto you, That except your righteousness (your self righteousness)shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven Matthew 5:20.

The righteousness that will get a man to heaven is divine, not human, so Christ's tells them, plain and simple.

And the book of Galatians says,
 
''Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law''Gal 3:21.

''I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain'' Gal.2:21.

The law (or commandments remain the same, in faith or out of it). The righteousness that is of faith is that righteousness which exceeds that of the

scribes and pharisees ( 2 Cor. 5:21, Phil3:9, Heb. 11:7 e.t.c)

chinedumo:
2) the righteousness possessed by a believer(after salvation) is his own righteousness and God's righteousness.
.

Please read your self.

chinedumo:
1) All righteousness that i had before my salvation is self-righteousness.

Romans 8 :5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

2)All righteousness that i have after my salvation is God's righteousness

Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

As you work out your salvation with fear and trembling know that you get to have a righteousness, your own, not God's! But the fountain, foundation, spring, is of God. Phil 2:13.

Work out your salvation does not mean, work for your salvation, it means , do those things that show you are saved.

[quote author=julian_H link=topic=468858.msg6279907#msg6279907 date=1277461700]In the book of Genesis, we were told that the devil appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent and persuaded her to eat the forbidden fruit that God Almighty had commanded them not to eat.

“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, that your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”. Genesis chapter 3:5.

When you read down the same chapter of the book of Genesis, you will see how Eve gave in to the deceit of the devil by eating the fruit and giving to her husband – Adam – who also ate.

The same chapter goes further to talk about how God came down in the cool of the evening to fellowship with them – Adam and Eve – only for Adam to hear of His presence in the garden and ran to hid himself.

One may then wonder why God in His omniscience didn’t intervene when the woman was being deceived by the devil.

I have also asked a similar question but mine was anchored on the fact that God being all-knowing must have known Adam and Eve (or at least Eve) would not take heed to the commandment to stay clear off the fruit located in the middle of the Garden but still He allowed the fruit to be there!

The Almighty God works in mysterious ways and His ways and thoughts are as far apart from ours as the heavens is far away from the earth.

Prophet Isaiah puts it this way:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8 – 9.

The disobedience of Adam and Eve paved the way to the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! (Genesis 3:15). Through the coming of Jesus we were restored to God.

Yes! When He (God) allows some things to happen to us, it is usually for a purpose. Sometimes it is to teach us perseverance and dependence on

Him and sometimes He (just) wants to manifest Himself in our lives and circumstances so as to take all the glory!  

As you read through this piece of writing, it is my sincere hope and belief that you will be encouraged, vitalized (or revitalized) and will come to the understanding that everything works out for good so that His name alone will be glorified.

email: trustingod247@gmail.com
http://www.trustingod247..com[/quote]What an awesome post!

chinedumo:
God respects delegated authority. God has no right to intervene in something he has delegated to man.

As a fellow theist, I say, ''mind your language''.

chinedumo:
let me ask u something some one who tries to be self righteous and someone who makes no effort at all who is better?

Aha, Chinedumo! Want to derail your own post? I have graciously () offered you my understanding of the term and instead of acknowledging it as

true or rejecting it as false, you turn aside and come up with the above. Are u trying to wear me down?