₦airaland Forum

noetic16:
seconded.

Endorsed.

chinedumo:
. that will make his an unjust God. if God did not call some people then they have not committed any offense if they don't heed the call cos it was not meant for them. then there should be no punishment awaiting them cos God will not punish the guiltless.

So, if God decided not to punish some of the guilty, that would make the rest of the guilty guiltless?

chinedumo:
I want to state that God has called everyone. Everybody is called. God did not call some people and leave others out. that will make his an unjust God . if God did not call some people then they have not committed any offense if they don't heed the call cos it was not meant for them. then there should be no punishment awaiting them cos God will not punish the guiltless. God so loved the world, john 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

IMHO, these are rantings, gravitating towards blasphemy. Please slow down.

Note that God was under no obligation to save anyone, so if He decided to save some and not all, He should be praised for His grace (for grace it is), not vilified. Has He no right to do with His own as He wills?(Matt 20:15). Whatever He pleases that He does and no one can question Him ( Ps. 115:3, Dan. 4:35,Rom.9:19-25). Once I heard someone say (and I paraphrase), ''it is not to be wondered at why God doesn't save every sinner, what we should wonder at is why He saves any sinner.''

chinedumo:
I want to state that God has called everyone. Everybody is called. God did not call some people and leave others out. that will make his an unjust God. if God did not call some people then they have not committed any offense if they don't heed the call cos it was not meant for them. then there should be no punishment awaiting them cos God will not punish the guiltless. God so loved the world, john 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1Timothy 2: 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jeremiah 44:4Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate.

The word I used is chosen and I will stick to that , if God has chosen everyone, what did Christ's statement mean to His disciples in John

15:16?

chinedumo:
1) All righteousness that i had before my salvation is self-righteousness.

Romans 8 :5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

2)All righteousness that i have after my salvation is God's righteousness

Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

We have come to the crucial point of the argument, at least I think so.

The difference between your position and mine are stated below, if I do not reflect your position correctly, please let me know.

Your position is that:

(1) all the righteousness a person has before their salvation is self- righteousness

(2) all the righteousness a person has after their salvation is God's righteousness

(3) a believer gets this righteousness (God's righteousness), when they live according to God's commandments

(4) It is this righteousness (God's righteousness), that they have, due to their good works, that will take them to heaven eventually

(5) if a believer is not perfect in this righteousness (God's righteousness), that they have, due to their good works, they will not enter

heaven eventually

(6) some believers are perfect in this righteousness (God's righteousness), due to their good works



Note that I got the 4th to 6th of your positions from your OP.

My position is:

(1) all the righteousness a person has before their salvation is self-righteousness

(2) all the righteousness a person has after their salvation (when as a believer they live according to God's commandments) is self-righteousness

(3) a believer gets a righteousness imputed to them on believing, this is the righteousness of faith, God's righteousness and this is the

righteousness that takes them to heaven eventually

(4)the believer is still expected to do good works, but these good works do not contribute a farthing to their salvation

(5) a believer thus possess the righteousness that is of faith (God's righteousness) and that which is of themselves (self- righteousness)

(6)it is the righteousness that is of faith that counts, as far as salvation is concerned.


If you agree with my observation (on our different positions), then we will go on with our discussion, if not, let me know your point of disagreement.

Please note that those who will go to heaven were chosen (elected) by the Lord, before the foundation of the world by grace.



John 15:16, ''Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should

remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.''

Eph1 3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on

earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed

with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

chinedumo:
I never mentioned in any place that i do not recognize the sacrifice of the cross but that one should come to the cross and go beyond it. Christ died for a reason. their are things he wants u to do for him. and u can only do them after u have had an encounter with him. after that u start working with him. i am not asking unbeliever to work to be saved, no. i am not addressing unbelievers but Christians. there are teaching for converts-to-be and teaching for the already converted. Christianity does not end in the cross but starts at the cross. am what i have been talking about is for Christians. u have gone beyond the cross of Jesus. it is your time to take your own cross. there is work to do. if u know that u do not work to be saved cos your work cannot save u. but the work of christ. accept that work Christ has done on your behave. if u know that u are saved to work them start working now/after u have been saved. very simple something. no need to make a mountain out of an ant hole. no long story
Luke 9:23 (New International Version)

23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

New International Version (©1984)
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Answer the Master's call. be the answer to this prayer. start working. but always remember to work with FAITH and LOVE. and God will surely be pleased.

Please do not misunderstand me. All the righteousness I have before I was saved, amount to my self-righteousness. All the righteousness I have since I have been saved, amount to my self-righteousness. If I advance any of these to the Lord as to why I should enter heaven, He would be very angry with me indeed.

Self-righteousness as the term signifies is the righteousness that is from self.

It is true.However we must strive for perfection.

[quote author=chinedumo link=topic=458592.msg6231086#msg6231086 date=1276779768]Exactly what have i taught that is not scriptural? which teachings?
the verses u quoted all illustrated paul before his convention. exactly what i have been saying. look at this
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
we worship God with our flesh with our bodies hands feet mind and the rest and every other thing that he has given us but we don't relay on the flesh we don't depend on the flesh but the spirit. the spirit won't worship God for you. u will.

4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[/b]
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless

all this will Paul did not know the LORD he was not working with faith. he was working without faith. so the solution to paul's problem is not to stop working but to work with faith
[/Quote]

The solution to Paul's problem was for him to stop doing things in the hope they would help him ''make heaven'', but to accept what Christ did for him; then do those things Christ wanted him to do as evidence of having ''made heaven'' (being saved). We do not do good works to be saved, but do good works because we are saved .

chinedumo:
I have cause to ask this question cos i have come to notice a discrepancy in the meaning and use of phrase "self righteousness". so lets start with what it means to u or what it ought to mean or even what it meant to u i.e what u thought it meant. after that then This is where my grievance goes to. When someone is making effort to be holy, dedicated, serious in the things of God, allows the LORD to use him and flow through him, doing the work of the ministry and edify the body of Christ. when he find himself among luckworm nominal "sunday sunday" christians, they count his as self righteous. is this discrimination accurate?

The average believer (I believe) sees a person as self-righteous if they are trusting in what they do to get them to heaven (''make heaven''), especially if they do not profess to be religious (for example, if they are moralists). But self-righteousness indeed (to my understanding ) goes beyond that. If a person is converted and living as a believer should and thinks they will get they as a result of such good works,such a righteousness as they have can be called self-righteousness.
It is the attitude that is the difference, where the trust is. It must remain on Jesus even after believing.

True righteousness does not help us ''make heaven'' rather having ''made heaven'' by faith, we are able to bring fought true righteousness.

I sincerely don't mean to confuse you or anyone else,please. Just trying to make some necessary distinctions.

lagerwhenindoubt:
is this the lord of the rings thread

Seems like it.

chinedumo:
LEt begin with that book of JUDE

Jude3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
all never enter my rest.' "

I hope you are also aware of these men : ¶

Philippians 3

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 
4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, ¶

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.



Paul's starts his epistles by warning against their teachings.

chinedumo:
LEt begin with that book of JUDE

Jude3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The deliverance of the isrealites from Egypt is like the salvation of man from his sins. the lamb's blood sprayed on the door post- the passover lamb is a representation of the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the World. but even after that great deliverance, 20 years and above perished in the wilderness, never made it to the promised land which is a symbol of heaven a land flowing with milk and honey.
Hebrews 3:7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
   "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
   as you did in the rebellion,
      during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
      and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
      and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
      and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
      'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a]

I understand these passages. I am for living right. If you don.t understand this, you would be arguing to no purpose. [b]What the argument is about is if it is the good we do after our conversion that takes us to heaven.[/b]You talk of 'making heaven' , I say the term as you have used it in your post is misleading and unscriptural.

chinedumo:
let me point something out to you. a kingdom was prepared from the foundations of the earth, yes. we are not told that it is prepared for any particular individual other than saints and believers. meaning that ANYONE who believes shall be saved. it is prepared for those who will live out a Christ-like life. as for sinners we are not told that they are cursed from the foundation of the earth, even eternal fire was not made for them, but devil and his angels but if they do not live a christ-like life they might have to be included. Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

since u don't see the reason behind the distinction, i will show u then. when u bring into consideration that Christ will judge u will perish the idea that the blood will protect u. especially someone who has not lived up to the expectations of one who was once cleansed by the blood Hebrews 10:28.29 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
if the blood is all that is needed then Christ will have no need judging u at all. but all will be judged of all tribe tongues, nations Romans 2: 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
if Paul thought it necessary to mention and to distinguish and to refer to it specifically as his gospel, then it is important and relevant. let me give u a clue. One the last Day u will see Jesus in human form judging you. it won't be any other creature or being but human being that is why they will look on him who they have pierced and the inhabitants of the earth will mourn.

Don't misunderstand my post. All I said was that they was no need to distinguish who was going to be the Judge- God or Christ. If we agree that Jude 24,25 refers to Christ, then I am at a loss to know why you are still talking of distinctions.

chinedumo:
the way i see it u have missed the point i am trying to illustrate. let me start by asking u who do u think will judge the world on the last day? these scriptures may help John 5:22,23 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Acts 17:30, 31 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

let me help u again
Note the conditions required one the last day, and who is making the requirements
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

i will give u another
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

"i know that the basic common sinners prayer is "come into my life and be my lord and savior" the character above recognized the lord ship of Jesus but what was he doing? mouth service but doesn't do the LORD's command ,will. his work level is zero let see Christ command to his disciples
Matthew 5:16 (New International Version)

16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

First of all, let me make this observation: a lot of errors in doctrine occur when/where we fail to draw distinctions when/where we should and when/where we draw distinctions when/where we shouldn't. [/b]For the case at hand I do not see the need for this distinction, knowing the Father and the Son are of the same mind and they who are accepted by the Father are necessarily accepted by the Son. Who is being referred to in Jude 24,25 the verse I had in mind? Whether God or Christ, since the Son approves only what the Father does, your distinction is irrelevant.

Secondly , who are those Christ will say to thus, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world'. Chinedumo, they are , [b]believers! And those to whom He would say, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' are unbelievers. This interpretation is in perfect agreement with John 3:16. Those going to heaven there, are going on the basis that they were believers. Being believers ,their lives were characterized by good works.

chinedumo:
prove to me through scriptures that that Christ died for sinners to make heaven(and not to save them for servitude to sin) and if new converts don't make heaven the fault comes from Christ. and that the righteousness by faith is sufficient to take a convert to heaven

Chinedumo

Sorry I have not responded b4 now. I did not runaway . I was commenting on another thread, you can check it out https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-461983.0.html .

I started by mentioning the righteousness which is by faith, I would have elaborated but for the fact that I was derailed. It was needful to say that because, though you were saying something good - the need to strive towards perfection, you were saying it at the expense of other truths. You implied that we must be perfect to get to heaven, that to me is speaking as though Christ did not die or died to no purpose. As for your post above, Christ' death ensures all who believe will certainly get to heaven. God with whom we have to do cloths the believer with the righteousness of faith and will present them faultless and irreproachable in His presence on the last day. Of course, it does not imply that they are to do no good works.

viaro:
* Ha! Pls and pls. . . I did not type "bosom"! I wanted to shorthand the verse and said "T[color=Black]it[/color]. 3:14" . . I don't know where "bosom" suddenly appeared!

Very familiar, it has happened to me before.

toba:
Viaro wants to be sin free and not want to end up like solomon or judas, is it God that will help u to achieve this?

Viaro wants a PHD, u need to study hard and get money for material research will God come down to help achieve this? or its like 70% your responsibility?

Psalm127

1Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

There's a question that would remain when all has been said and done:

Ultimately, in whose hands is the destiny of anyone, their hands; or God's?

mrmayor:
Man Determines his Destiny = God is not all Knowing after-all, he didn't know Lucifer would challenge him= he didn't know that his creatures (man) would reject him because man had Freewill to do as he pleases.

God Determines Man's Destiny= Man is not guilty of is actions, God determined in advance that you would disobey, kill, if 6 million Jews were destined to Die then someone (HITLER) was destined to kill them= No Sin.


Take Your Pick

Good point. But consider just these paradoxes for now;

1. Acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


The event was determined and foreknown, yet the men were inexcusable.

2.Matt. 26:24  

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had

not been born.

The event was determined and foreknown, yet the man (Judas) was inexcusable.

@All.

Men and brethren, what shall we say to these things? That God is unfair? The author of sin? God forbid!!!

viaro:
Happens to everyone - I might as well risk saying "everyone" (that is, believers in general). Perhaps, it is not so much a problem of letting Scripture speak for itself - it might be more about 'human factor' wanting to be the microphone of what we think Scripture is saying (ie., our interpretations often get in the way). But you made very good point: people have to think of what implications underlie what they call 'scripture'.

I totally agree with you.

Often, I have observed we are afraid to let scripture speak for itself because of what an admittance of what it says would amount to or we imagine it would amount to.

nuclearboy:
^^ You scared me there, 5solas. When I saw "epistles to the Romans", I wondered how I'd missed those words.

But these were Martin Luther's thoughts, bro and whist we all have respect for him and the role he played in getting the Bible into private hands, he still remains just man like us all.

It does sound nice and valuable and all that but I doubt it can be taken as Scripture. I'd still say lets keep our options open.

I didn't mean to, very sorry.

But seriously , it might surprise so many of us to see that virtually all the reformers were of this opinion and I will give

necessary references as we go along. Things only started changing with the emergence of Arminianism which only just managed to escape

condemnation as a heresy at the synod of Dordt.

''All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment;
whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who
should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should
be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be
condemned''.
- Martin Luther (Preface to the epistle to the Romans)

toba:
Which means man has no control over destiny save for God? Why then were we told to work out our own salvation? If God knows the outcomes,we should then go with 'Que sera sera' no so viaro?

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are seemingly irreconcilable, however both are taught by the scriptures.

viaro:
^^ I like that - "without details being set in stone", which is why I'm concerned about the idea that 'destiny' is stretched to mean that something which will inevitably happen in the future and as such, regardless what anyone does they are just helpless.

If all events are not foreknown certainly, how could we tell which were certainly forknown and which were not?

@All.

Is God's foreknowledge certain or does it depend on what we would do?

IMHO, God leaves nothing to chance. There's no luck but grace with Him. Pls compare Ecc. 9:11 with Rom. 9:16, 1Sam.3-9, Lk 1:52-53,Jer9:23,10:23.

Was David's victory over Goliath of Himself or of God? About that of Gideon over the Midianites? The list is endless.

viaro:
Perhaps a good place to start is to look at what each one of us all mean by that nebulous word 'destiny'.

Inbetween all the points of reference, there seems to be a silverline cutting neatly through it all.

Destiny:
1.  somebody's preordained future: the apparently predetermined and inevitable series of events that happen to somebody or something
Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Please show us, so I may perhaps sheathe my dagger.

Quite a long time Viaro, I have been missing you, your humour and posts.

toba:
As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?

W e do not even know what our destinies are, so even if we wanted to be in charge, we cannot.We however know those things God would have us do, doing those things would give us the blessings of God. We should do that and leave the results to God.

In truth, nothing happens without God's determination.

I am often irked when ''I hear some preachers say,''You Can Change Your Destiny!'' It is totally misleading. One can change the circumstances they

find themselves by applying truths they learn, but it does not amount to them changing their destinies. Again we should know that we can achieve what we set out to achieve (if we have the ability), provided God does not will otherwise. If He willed otherwise, no amount of effort or wisdom will give us those achievements.