₦airaland Forum

Viaro,
Thanks a lot for your rejoinders and for the patience you exhibited in the course of posting them. I am 100% in agreement.

Image123:
@viaro & toluxa1
I was quoting Acts 16v31 where someone asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved". The answer given was that simple. Jesus said in John 3 he that believes is not condemned, he that does not believe is condemned already. Another place, Jesus says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Salvation can get that simple. I realise the need for growth and teaching and continuing in doctrine but this are not steps to salvation, less it become not of faith but of works.
Knowing the inside-out of how to get saved doesn't necessarily translate to salvation. One may know doctrine, and regeneration, and remission, and size and color of the paschal lamb and not be saved. One can have a healthy heart without knowledge of ventricles and auricles AND vice versa. Doctrine doesn't save us, it's faith that saves.

And he believed, but wasn’t saved presumably, because salvation is a process! ‘Believe’ as preached, was not in fact so, but ‘believing’!

Image123:
@viaro
Sorry I wasn't explicit when I said that if you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. My thinking in saying that, is that salvation is most precious than life savings. And if what many count as precious(life savings), and are careful about can be lost, then beware, salvation which we're often more negligent about and often commit into other(God, denomination, leaders and shepherd) hands, can be lost.
Jude in warning us talks of a loss of salvation
V 19. If any OF YOU do ERR FROM the truth, and one convert him. Verse 20. LET HIM KNOW, that he which converts the SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH, and hide a multitude of sins.
MORAL LESSON:The backslider is a sinner in death who needs a 're-saving'. This is not talking about works or rewards.
Blessings

In whose arms is the salvation of a believer ultimately, even if he is so gullible as to 'commit' it into ‘other hands’ as you say?
Are you saying the backslider is lost while still alive? By talking of a 're-saving’ are you saying he can get born-again again. Wetin we no go hear!

The next concept I would like to look at is the Holy Spirit’s presence in the believer , to go straight to the point, if it can leave  the believer. First and foremost then let us consider why He was given, what He does and if He is said to leave the believer.
Why He was given
John 14
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, [b]that he may abide with you forever;[/b]17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you
John 16
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What  He Does
Eph.1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Gal.3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?

I cannot see why anyone would teach that the Holy Spirit can leave a believer in the light of the above scriptures.
The spirit is supposed to be a comforter to the believer, if He leaves at the point when He is needed most, then what is the purpose of His coming? The argument that He cannot stay where there is sin is beaten down by, Rom 5:8-10,
‘8.But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life’.
The Spirit came to us because of our faith, not good works; why are our sins advanced as a reason why the Spirit can leave? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to cite lack of faith?
The reason why people teach that the Spirit can leave  a believer  is to give credence to the false doctrine that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism), they seek consistency with Romans 8:9, ‘But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his’.

Image123:
toluxa1
Rewind come back small. I quoted John 3v16 saying WHOSOEVER believes in him will not perish. I implied that anyone/everyone can have a go at salvation. I didn't say all will be saved, instead ANYONE/WHOSOEVER believes, not some 'chosen' sect.
Then came someone saying whosoever means 'not all' or as many as. That's why I put the two words in place of WHOSOEVER in John 3v16 to show how different they sound. They sure didn't look synonymous in that passage.

Everyone who believes will be saved , but not all CAN believe. I refer you to Rom.9 especially
15-18. Fallen Man's ability does not match his responsibility.He is required to believe, but he does not have the ability to do so, except he is aided by the Spirit.
''And so God's blessings are not given just because someone decides to have them or works hard to get them.They are given because God takes pity on those he wants to''. (Rom.9:16,TLB).

Posted by: Image123
Insert Quote
toluxa1
I'm yet to say that we have ability to choose God. You have added 'God' of your volition. I said we have ability to choose and quoted scriptures to that effect(Proverbs 1v29). Another says 'choose you this day who you will serve'. Except this scriptures are wrong and you are right sha. But Bible clearly tells us that we have a say in this matter. We're not programmed zombies, programmed for heaven/hell. Whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY


What difference is there between the ability to choose God and to choose to believe in Him?

Image123

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You must be ignorant to think that everybody will get saved. Some people were needed by an oil company recently. It was already ordained that not everyone will be accepted, there was a limited number of positions to be filled. Right before applications, everything had been prepared. That's planning. Only a lazy bone will give up with the excuse that not everybody will be picked, the company already knows what/who they're looking for. Go figure if you can.


You are both agreed that not all will be saved ,so why the talk of someone being ignorant?
You are here again with yet another false analogy. So you now give Man the power of ordaining? Do you not know that what is for-ordained or ordained must necessary come to pass? If the company gets burnt on the eve of the interview, can it still take place? Does the management know the persons that would attend the interview before the advert is placed? Will they take applicants by grace (without merit)? If yes, what’s the aim of the interview?
Believers still preach the gospel even though not all are ordained because the bible tells them to and it is the means by which God calls the elects (those ordained, fore-ordained, predestinated, appointed) to salvation. The invitation (message) is for all men but only the elects can receive it.

John 6:44,66;Matt.11:25-27.

BigBashiru
Posts: 53

Not Ordained To Life Eternal
« on: April 26, 2010, 02:11 PM »

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Contrary to the thinking of false teachers and false prophets on this forum, the Bible is very clear that not everybody is ordained to eternal life & therefore not everybody will be saved. Wicked freewill apologists preach the anti-Bible doctrine that Christ is preached so that men out of their "freewill" "accept" Christ. What these wicked men dont understand is that the names of everybody that must be saved was written before they were born according to the everlasting covenant. men must stop spreading the lie that everybody will get saved.

The 'freewill' teaching is false. A lot of teachings are based on it and are false also.Great thread!

viaro:
Here's an example of what I'm trying to say:

No, it's not that simple - the analogy does not fit. One's 'life savings' pertains to what they worked for; but salvation is a gift by grace and it's free. We already know that we cannot confuse work for grace (Romans 11:6 - 'And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'); and thus we cannot destine them to be on the same pedestal.

True words.

Such a great thread and written with the purpose I had in mind when I created the thread,'' Can A Believer Lose Salvation?''.
Toluxa1, thanks were it not for your reference to it, I would still be ignorant of the existence of this thread.

Image123

Please read, ''The Bondage Of The Will'' (http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html ) by Martin Luther (the man who sparked off the reformation). It will help you a lot, especially with such passages as you quote, which says what man ought to do, man's responsibility.The abridged version is at http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm .

Image123:
I've seen John 6v70,71. I like to note though that John was writing in retrospect. I know ONE was a 'devil', but I'M NOT SURE the exact one was known prior.

You cannot rightly note he was writing in retrospect. You may believe so, and you may believe also that when Jesus asked Peter in Matt 17:27 to
’’   go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.’’, He was speaking in retrospect! If He had foreknowledge at all ,it was mutable! In fact, so mutable that Peter would obey and observe that the events would happen, as the Lord had spoken!

Image123:
In John 17, Jesus Christ prayed that his disciples be kept. Why pray for someone to be kept if it's not probable/possible to be 'unkept'. Jesus in the same chapter spake of the disciples(including Judas) as out of the world. Verse 6 thine they are, they HAVE KEPT my word.
Another verse says none of them is lost but one. Evidently, he was found before getting lost.

Who is doing the keeping? Will there 'unkeep' themselves?If they keep themselves, your argument would hold water, but these verses show that God does the keeping. Go through the new testament ,and the old! The verses are endless.

femi adams:
Judas lost his salvation by denying Christ but Peter kept his even though he too denied Christ. The difference is that Judas BETRAYED Christ but Peter DENIED Him 'escapistly'.

However, a believer can loose the rewards of every good works he did as a believer while on planet earth.

Notwithstanding he who thinks that he stands should be careful so as not to fall!

Please do not forget Jesus forewarned Peter of this sin and assured him He had prayed for him.Peter's perseverance in faith was of Christ,not himself!

toluxa1:
This verse should be somewhere in Romans (can't remember). You just Isolated the verse to prove whatever works gospel you're trying to prove. But the verse that immediately follows it explains it with something like "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and do of His good pleasure. . .". So you see, the working of your own salvation is not even your own work but it is God that works in you. This totally nolifies your point.

It is actually Phil.2:12,13.
Ogwumgbe, quotes verse 12 as though it says , ''work for your salvation''. The next verse as you pointed out ,refutes him.

Image123:
Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Please do not be surprised. Do a study of the elects and of election, you will be enlightened by it. Judas was not an elect.I will repeat part of my 20th post:
''Matt.24:22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?''

Judas was never saved.

BigBashiru:
What is salvation? it is the filling of the spirit of the believer with the Holy Ghost such that the believer disappears/ dies (in spirit). You will understand this statement if you have revelation knowledge of your salvation.

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."Colossians 3:3

This fusion of shekina glory with the spirit of the believer cannot be reversed as God cannot breach his everlasting covenant made with the Trinity.

For more details, read Charles Spurgeon:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0277.htm

After salvation, the believer is not responsible for his righteousness and therefore cannot lose salvation on that ground as he was saved by grace and the Holy Ghost will not let him sin on purpose unless there are specific lessons to be learnt from it.

You have hit a vital point in this whole argument. What happened on the believer's conversion is not reversed,they did not get saved by merit (righteousness) in the first place!(Gal.3:1-5).
I share your love for Spurgeon's work and have already saved the page you cited.

toluxa1:
The fall being talked about here is not the loss of salvation. Remember in what the scriptures says. Even though the righteous falls seven times, He will SURELY rise again. You have to create harmony in the scriptures before you can have truth.

Yes,because God keeps him; the scriptures are endless (1Cor.1:8,1Thess.3:13,Jude 24,Rom.16:25,Phil.1:6 e.t.c)

Image123:
You're ignoring the fact that nobody has said that salvation is gotten by good works. Grace is what saves us, your question is AFTER this saving/salvation, can we lose it? The answer is yes, mr, yes. God will not warn us if there's no danger.take heed, beware, lest he fall, or be a castaway, or return to wallowing in the mire.

It is not enough for you to say they can lose it,you have to show how they may. Nothing has to be admitted as being taught in the scriptures, which cannot be proved to a certainty.

Is it not to be wondered that people who believe that a believer can lose salvation have not even cited deficiency of good works as a reason? What do we hear daily in our churches? If I believed a believer can be lost I would start from there and show 5Solas the deficiencies of his 47th post.

toluxa1:
Since God has done everything to accomplish his salvation (elected him, paid for his sins, and given him a new resurrected soul, which are necessary for the salvation of all the elect), that person can be certain that he can never lose his salvation. The seed that remains in him is Christ (Galatians 3:16). Once he becomes saved, he has eternal security. God has already accomplished everything necessary to give him eternal life. Therefore, a true believer can never lose his salvation. The Bible says there is no sin, nor anything else, that can separate a true believer from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39).

Thanks for your response.Well spoken.

ogwumgbe:
If there's no possibility of losing salvation as a believer, can some one then explain the parable of the ten virgins to me. Are they not all believers, or who are the five foolish virgins refering to?

Even if I don't know anything else in the bible, I know this: it does not teach salvation can be lost, if it did, it would contradict it’s teaching that salvation was by grace. In most of the passages of the bible, believers are distinguished from unbelievers and their ends spelt out and I am certain it is the same here. You are presuming the ten virgins were believers. Let us consider  verse 30 to 46 of Matt.25, the same book and chapter you are referring to. A casual look at this passage would cause one to suppose the sheep were going to heaven because of their good works while the goats were going to hell because of their lack of good works, right? Where then is the reference to faith or the lack of it? What persons did the sheep represent?How about the goats? According to Jesus what persons would not perish but have eternal life?The sheep would go to heaven not because of their good works but because of their belief (faith). This faith translates to good works.We are back were we started: we do not do good works to be saved but are saved to do good works!
Be informed that those who  would go to heaven (the wise virgins, the sheep) are believers. The illustration runs through the whole bible.

Because of their leaning towards a salvation that is based on works.

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

Believe me, Pelagianism kills.

In the scriptures it is clearly taught that the believer is not justified (saved) by keeping the law, nor are they justified (saved) by good works. They are said to be saved by grace through faith. These points are reiterated in virtually all the epistles of the apostle, Paul. For instances please read the whole of the epistle to the Galatians, Romans and Hebrews to get the message in context (but in particular (Gal. 2:14-21 - 4:7; 5:1-6; Rom. 3:19-5:21; 8: 1-39; Heb. 7:11-10:39.)).So many of us have read these verses but how many of us have really seen their import?. Many reading them would trivialize them, some would say, by saying justification (salvation) is not by keeping the law Paul was referring to the ceremonial law. But even if we grant the argument that that was the case, then what was he trying to say? Justification (salvation) is not by the law, so what? But a closer look at these passages tells us that he was saying that it is not deserved. Some of us understand this and say we do not keep the law to be saved, but when we are saved we have to keep the law or we will not be saved! Some of us say he is referring to the law and not the commandments! If we are not to keep the law to get salvation, are we to keep the commandments to get salvation?If true then the whole disputation of Paul amounts to nothing. But the truth of the matter is that the law and the commandments are one and the same. If we hold them to be different, then we would be saying that God does not expect believers to keep the law which would be tantamount to preaching licentiousness (which I know a lot of people are hoping I won't preach!)
Something else we should note also is that Paul is saying this to BELIEVERS! If he were saying it to unbelievers then the objections I have noted above would have been justified, but this is not the case. Let’s study these passages and answer the question, Can A Believer Lose Salvation?
If they can, why not start the argument from their not keeping the commandments? A lot of preachers who argue that a believer can lose salvation base their argument on the believer not doing good works whereas Paul charges them not to think their salvation is due to their good works.
Are good works therefore unnecessary in the life of believers? If they are necessary, what is their role?
Paul gives the answer in his epistles always after impressing upon them that their salvation was not deserved. He urges them to leave as people should who have been saved. He tells them to start doing good works now that they are saved. He tells them that those who are saved have their lives characterised by holy living.
Rom3: 31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.(KJV)
Well then, if we are saved by faith,does this mean we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.(TheLiving Bible)


We do and are enjoined to do good works after we are saved, this should tell us that good works are the effects of our salvation but not the cause .

Titus 3


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Rom. 3:27,28.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV

27. Then what can we boast about doing, to earn our salvation? Nothing at all.Why?Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him.
28.So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.(TLB)

Image123
Insert Quote
So 5solas wants to teach something, good. Teach on


Thanks. Of all the concepts then, I will start with 'good works' tomorrow, by His grace. Meanwhile let's hear our Lord on the certainty of our salvation:

John 17

1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(KJV)

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=428061.msg5933011#msg5933011 date=1271904044]Please do tell me what level?

This thread is not needless to me, but should be to you because according to you a believer cannot loose salvation, therefore it really doesn't matter if they don't agree with you as long as they believe they won't loose salvation.

It's a logic thing, u might not get it.[/quote]I ought indeed to have elaborated on the level of absurdity.
First of all a believer can lose salvation if they are not 100% holy.
No matter how committed a believer is they can go to hell for one sin, one slip.
The threat of losing salvation hangs just above the head of every Christian like the sword of Damocles.
Female believers can go to hell for wearing miniskirts, trousers, earrings,laces, not covering their heads,  e.t.c
These are some of the absurdities.
Please endeavour to read the aforementioned book for more as well as to get my drift.
And lest I forget, we both hold this thread needful!

[/quote][quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=428061.msg5926682#msg5926682 date=1271808761]Exactly why is 5solas bothering himself on people that can never loose salvation. They can freely hold whatever belief they want, they won't loose their salvation, so what's the problem?
Sit back and relax.
Unless you do realise that one can loose salvation when they don't hold the true belief.

shaking my head at how illogical the Solas are.

And while you are trying to get that book read the thread, ''Pastor Bimbo Odukoya Is In Hell?'' She's said to be there, because of (amongst other things), her miniskirts!

Arminianism (the teaching that a believer can lose salvation) does not seek to make a believer righteous, nor can it do it, being of the flesh. It seeks to take assurance from the believer ,that was and still is, its grand design. While we are dissecting it let’s be looking at passages that oppose it. One of which is:
Romans 8:28-29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(KJV)

Image123
Why the bother? At least according to you, they can't lose their salvation. Or you want them to be aware that you know something



I want to demonstrate how weak the arguments of Arminianism are. I am sure not a few persons are shocked you are not able to defend your seeming lofty doctrine. Are my enquiries that seeks to bring out the  truth of this matter bothering you?
We want to learn your doctrine and look at it in the light of the scriptures, that’s all!

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=428061.msg5926682#msg5926682 date=1271808761]Exactly why is 5solas bothering himself on people that can never loose salvation. They can freely hold whatever belief they want, they won't loose their salvation, so what's the problem?
Sit back and relax.
Unless you do realise that one can loose salvation when they don't hold the true belief.

shaking my head at how illogical the Solas are.[/quote]Have you never experienced what level of absurdity the belief, that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism) is taken to?Have you read the book,'24-Hour Interview In Hell', for instance? Please do and tell me if it's message is a reflection of the gospel and if this thread is needless. The book in question was very popular in the streets of Lagos in the year 1999, it still might be.

ikhideman:
There's no such thing as losing salvation.

Simply put, the summary of what I said is: if by confessing with your mouth & believing in your heart that Jesus is Lord you r saved, you would have to denounce Jesus from your heart to be become an unbeliever - and hence have d Devil as a father. Doesn't mean you "lost salvation."

Its all about believing. As someone wrote above, check out Hebrews 6:4-6.

These things shouldn't bother you as a believer; just study the Word more and as you do, always ask for Wisdom & revelation in the Knowledge of God. If you happen to meet anyone who says he was once a christian, and claims to be no longer one, all he has to do is rededicate his life back to God as in Rom.10:9-10. The Word of God is Our Guide as believers!!

Cheers,

Thanks.
It no longer bothers me. I found assurance of salvation in The Bible about 15 years ago.
My bother is for brethrens who are being deceived on this point and for many who have built structures on the belief that a believer can lose salvation.

Posted by: petres_007
Insert Quote
Quote from: aletheia on April 12, 2010, 09:38 PM
Yes . . .and No

From a human viewpoint-Yes

But from God's perspective-No


I agree!
Posted on: Today at 12:27:11 AMPosted by:

I will show you soon why every believer must take a stand.

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=428061.msg5920865#msg5920865 date=1271719631]Phillipians 2:12

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

It is an ongoing process, you are not saved until you meet your death. Because at any time you can loose your salvation, and that will be by your own doing. We clearly have evidence of this, with people who were once Christians, but became muslim or atheist or anything else. We certainly cannot know if they will be saved at the end, that is entirely up to God's mercy.

But one has to work out their salvation in fear and trembling and not relax.[/quote]Thanks for your response.
The next verse to the one you quoted says:
’For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure'.
It follows that even the power and enabling to do good works is of God.
That we are enjoined to work out our salvation with fear and trembling should not be interpreted to mean that we should work for our salvation. And that I say (and believe) that a believer cannot lose salvation does not  necessary mean that I believe, that good works are not necessary in the life of a believer. Good works are necessary! The issue then is, what do we then do them for? Some say for salvation and that I deny.

One has to  do good works but not with the intension that they are saved by them (good works).
We don't do good works to be saved but we are saved, to do good works.