₦airaland Forum

fellis: Mkmyers, Avicenna and 2good; a theory is
1. A formal set of ideas that is intended to explain why something happens or exists.
2. The principles on which a particular subject is based.
3. An opinion or idea that is believed to be true but that is not proved.
These are the Oxford definitions.
A theory is not undisputed truth and it can be disproved with another theory.
2good; what type of experiment was carried out to prove abiogenesis a fact and were the conditions in that experiment exactly the same as it was when (you believe) it first took place on earth?
Avicenna, it is possible for a creator to exist and exist in such a way that human beings cannot fathom. That might seem unreasonable to you but what if He being the Creator, wants it to stay that way? Does that mean he doesn't exist? Your Scientific Principles have only debunked the ideas that Religions put forward about the Creator. They do not prove that there is none. Why live your life believing that there is no God when there is no concluding evidence that your belief is true?

I see the problem now. Oxford definition is for everyday usage. The No3 definition is false. Check out the scientific definition and proper usage. Its true that in science nothing is held as the absolute truth because they may be disproved by new findings. This goes to show the evidential nature of science. Nothing is taken to be true without adequate and repeated testing with same results.
I have answered all questions you posed above previously.

fellis: Mkmyers, Avicenna and 2good; a theory is
1. A formal set of ideas that is intended to explain why something happens or exists.
2. The principles on which a particular subject is based.
3. An opinion or idea that is believed to be true but that is not proved.
These are the Oxford definitions.
A theory is not undisputed truth and it can be disproved with another theory.
2good; what type of experiment was carried out to prove abiogenesis a fact and were the conditions in that experiment exactly the same as it was when (you believe) it first took place on earth?
Avicenna, it is possible for a creator to exist and exist in such a way that human beings cannot fathom. That might seem unreasonable to you but what if He being the Creator, wants it to stay that way? Does that mean he doesn't exist? Your Scientific Principles have only debunked the ideas that Religions put forward about the Creator. They do not prove that there is none. Why live your life believing that there is no God when there is no concluding evidence that your belief is true?

I see the problem now. Oxford definition is for everyday usage. The No3 definition is false. Check out the scientific definition and proper usage. Its true that in science nothing is held as the absolute truth because they may be disproved by new findings. This goes to show the evidential nature of science. Nothing is taken to be true without adequate and repeated testing with same results.
I have answered all questions you posed above previously.

Jenwitemi: The creator does show itself in it's creation, part of which is your very self. You are a perfect poof that there is a creator because it shows itself through you. That is the universal and neutral creator. You're not an accident that just happen due to billions of years of evolutionary trial and error as some atheists believe. You don't need to have your creator in a scientific laboratory to know that IT exists. It isn't that important. Just get on with your life and live it well is all that is required of you.

For example, i believe in the existence of a creator but i do not bother my head thinking about it. I just get on with living my life. That is how to stay out of theological bubbles. Atheism, believe it or not, is a theological bubble as much as theism is. It is said that atheism is nothing without that which it denies. It is just another label that is derived from that which you are running away from, Islam. And as long as you are an atheist, Islam will still continue to rule your mind because you have not really let go by becoming an atheist. You have only moved into the position of an Islamic antagonist.

I get your position. I m not going to allow atheism dominate my life. There are far more important things in my life than that. I m not getting into any arguments with a theist in real life. Won't be going into any islamic antagonizing as far as I can see.
The concept of a creator may be valid in some philosophical thoughts,its not provable. Christians,muslims use that argument too. You are the evidence of a creator that is.

Jenwitemi: You are most probably talking about religion created deity which, in your case, is Islamic ALLAH. I can understand you kicking against that deity and the rituals build around that deity, but the concept of a neutral creator that does not belong to any religion and whose routine is just your normal everyday living routine is a completely different one.

Everybody worship this CREATOR(I don't even want to use that bastardized word, GOD), be it theist, atheist or agnostic through their own individual daily routine of just living. From the minute you awake in the morning till the time you go to bed in the night, you are worshiping this creator. Even your sleep is a worship. Why? Because it is natural. You don't need to do anything extra other than live your life to the fullest, and by that, i do not mean hedonism.

You cannot live without the creator, avicenna, because you are part and parcel of IT, whatever IT is, which is hardly relevant anyway. The creator is pretty satisfied to just be in the background living with you and experiencing what you are experiencing. This is why it is very important to live your life well.

The problem is that Creator cannot be tested for. It has refused to show itself to humanity while some do evil,unholy things in his name. We have absolutely no Scientific evidence for his existence. Absence of evidence= evidence of absence.

fellis: Dude,
HYPOTHESIS= An idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture= Guesswork.

@topic, please theists, desist from insulting the atheists, someone came to type 'fools' here just now. What did you intend to gain from that? If you cannot have a civil discussion, then leave the thread.

Fixed.

Goldieluks: Fools..

Haha, indeed.
When we get down to it,you will be surprised who will come out looking like a fool.
Hint:its you

@lord babs and zuby77
You guys try o. But I wonder if its because you were christians to get easily away from the backlash. My family and relatives reactions will be furious and harsh. Tho,I will return fire for fire,I m not that weak. They are the islamic type gan gan.
Once I am completely assured that I am on my feet and secured,I will get out of the closet. It won't come as a surprise to some people anyway. I wonder if they will refuse me to treat them when I'm finally a doctor.

KINGwax: like kingwax[/b]will alwys say, [b]men bilivs woteva confuses them. I am a christian, and it confuses me why i pray wit the name of Jesus and get results and yet, people say it aint real. Probably u haven been seeing d desired result wit your religion, well, your bad. But the point is,you're a confused man without a mind of his own. In some yrs now, i'm sure you'll come running back and post rubbish of atheism not clear anymore and maybe suicide will be the right religion. And be not blinded wit d general bilif dt only d worship of God or dieties is religion, atheism is jst a religion made-biliv it aint. U worship your ability, urself. You biliv as a being, no other needed be worshiped except oneself so? I got an idea, why don't u try satanism, i swear, your stance will change in months.

You don't even get the idea here. I don't know where to begin with you. Is it the prayer part or the confused part?
Satanism is another religion,check what the title of this thread says.
Don't swear. Don't wait on it. If anything, when your 'prayers' stop working,I will be seeing you.

ziccoit: Anyone that has a mind bereaved of the "argument like this that are weak and flawed in many ways" will perish.

Threats.....again.
It will change nothing.

fellis: You and Avicenna mentioned abiogenesis.
Abiogenesis is an hypothesis, not a proven fact. So you're basing your entire belief system on an assumption just like the creationists.

Sooner or later,it will be completely proven to the point of replication. It is a theory.

Sister fatie: Welcome op also an ex-muslim atheist here.
To seun since the atheist count here keeps growing can we have our own section on nairaland?.pretty please?

You inspired me.

coolguy2002: why are u free

I m free. Its a thing of the mind. You won't understand.

djeezy: I'd rather live my whole life assuming there is a God, only to find out that there isn't, than to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find out there is.

I used to think this. But then since religion manufactured God,which one lead to him? Then I answered by saying all religion are fraudulent(with obvious evidence). If you believe in God without religion, it is pointless. You will still live according to your notion of right and wrong. Different models of God are abundant. Will it be a kind one who will overlook your lack of religion but accept your belief in him? Will it be cruel one? Does he even exist?
People have advised me here not to completely discard God, I have unless that notion of God can be scientifically validated. Until then,I will take my chances,they are excellent.

ziccoit: Many of you have powerful handsets, cars, music gadgets etc. despite the cost and sophiscation of those equipment, would they function on their own? The way you are the one controlling those equipment the way Almighty God controlling your life. Don't be deceived God is in existence. That you questioned His existence is even one of the signs of his existent.

Arguments like this are weak and flawed in many ways. If you keep saying things like this,don't be surprised to see more atheists.

fellis: True. Thing is, we always lived. The nature of creation ensured that humans remained on earth, regardless of whatever plague or calamity they faced or whatever means they took to adapt.
The earth itself, is positioned at just the right distance from the sun that all living things on earth
tolerate temperatures. The combination of gases in the atmosphere forms Ozone which is supposed to protect us (before human activities started destroying it.)
The Sun rotates at an axis that ensures that sunlight gets to every location and ensures the growth of vegetation that carry out photosynthesis that provides the oxygen we need to exist.
That, right there is order that has being kept in place for millions of years.
Also, the sun's gravitational pull holds the solar system together, the planets, the comets and space dust are attracted and held together by that pull. If not for that pull, things will float off into space and the temperature of the earth will be too cold to support life and living creatures will perish. This gravitational pull, if it was greater than it is, the earth will be drawn so close to the sun that the temperature will be too hot for living things to survive.
How did that pull come about? How has it being kept at just the right amount over all these centuries to ensure evolution and survival?
If you maintain that these things don't prove the existence of a force behind creation then I have nothing else to tell you.

Sorry for the epistle, Avicenna but one last question; if living things came about by spontaneous generation, then every living thing came from inorganic matter, energy and space and if all things are made up of inorganic matter, energy and space, then where did consciousness come from?

Then,we will agree to disagree.
Spontaneous generation have been debunked by the way.
Abiogenesis or biopoiesis is more like it.

Idehn: @Op
I for one wish you the best. It is probably not going to be easy for you(in your personal life), but knowing the truth of things rarely is. People cannot even define the thing called God in any meaningful/coherent/clear manner, so do not sweat the small stuff like "If there is no God, why are we not dead already?" and other silly retorts etc. . .

Thanks, I will keep that in mind.

fortran12: you dint answer the question... he asked "One simple question... how did we survive prior to developing our circulatory system?"

See,some primitive forms of circulatory system have always existed. They are not even worthy of being regarded as a system. If he wants to know the in-depth technical details,I will refer you and him to the secondary school Modern Biology. Its not necessary to type easy things like that here.

Bimfo: I just realised u Don't know what u r saying becuz, u Just Spoke out of Mind and u made ME run more closer to GOD, wen i was actualy enjoying ur teachins and believing u, 1 way or the other from the beginning. May be u smoked WEED d hour b4 u wrote this....

Hehe. See you purposely misreading my post. I have a mind. It is what religionists regard as your soul. Just semantics. I m in full control of my mind. I can assure you I m NOT out of my mind.
Btw,I smoke weed AFTER I posted this,hehehe.
Just kidding with ya.

Bimfo: I just realised u Don't know what u r saying becuz, u Just Spoke out of Mind and u made ME run more closer to GOD, wen i was actualy enjoying ur teachins and believing u, 1 way or the other from the beginning. May be u smoked WEED d hour b4 u wrote this....

Hehe. See you purposely misreading my post. I have a mind. It is what religionists regard as your soul. Just semantics. I m in full control of my mind. I can assure you I m NOT out of my mind.
Btw,I spoke weed after I posted this,hehehe.
Just kidding with ya.

davidylan: One simple question... how did we survive prior to developing our circulatory system?

The reason we develop a circulatory system is that the surface area to volume ratio was getting smaller. And the unicellullar organisms method of transportation was no longer adequate. It either remain like that or innovate.
A unicellullar organism,poriferans, had not much need for a complex structure.
I don't want to go deep into basic biology. The results is obvious.

seguun: @op,if I may ask you a simple question, how do you think the universe came about?

The BiG BANG.
What happened before that cannot be adequately explained and proven......yet. Until the LHC tests it out that is. ( The CERN project)

davidylan: Considering how long it takes to develop that immunity, what do you think would happen to the population prior?

Your example, while valid, is just too simplistic. Imagine a single error mutation in the development of the heart or blood? Considering the millions of yrs it would take to correct that error... do you think we would have made it to the yr 2012? Statistically our chances would be a big fat zero.

I believe it is perfectly ok to not have a belief in "god", but to try to use science to justify that belief makes no sense to me. Much of your logic here is deeply flawed.

You seem to think the mutations will occur at once in all populations. No, It doesn't work like that. Mutation of the genes controlling the heart will most likely result in death even before birth. But it may result in an even stronger heart. Bear in mind,this take place over thousands of years. Our ability to adapt is what helped us here. Without it,statistically,we will be dead. Extinct.
We are different,me and you in biologically profound ways. Do you know that when the bubonic plague struck,there were people with immunity to it? All it requires was those people to breed and the human race continues. In a short time,we will be back to the 450 million they were then.

davidylan: As a scientist, you should know that the above is realistically impossible. An error mutation would have wiped us out as a race before we got a chance to correct the mistake.

What I meant is that it requires a single person to develop immunity to a disease for generations later to be completely immune to it. If for instance,a man is born with scales and the environment changes(comets,tsunami,diseases,drought,famine etc) in such a way that having scales becomes an advantage in that crucial fight for survival,all generations will soon have scales.

fellis: Yes, yes it can be explained as such.

When properly explained in a scientific manner, I believe you will end up with mathematical equations and all what not. When you consider the equations you just derived from trying to explain the order in the universe, do you not wonder how come it is that they all come together to form that perfect order I wrote on before? The broken down explanations, whatever they might consist of; do you think they came about by accident? Do you think the fact that we only evolve in a way that is favourable to our existence is purely by accident and that the order in the Universe is also accidental?
Young man, there is something keeping things in order, scientific breakdown or not, the arrangement of things still follows a regular pattern. That pattern did not come about by mistake and it is not kept consistent by mistake.

Things are not perfect. From my medical studies,I can tell you humans are far from perfect. Yes,we are complex but a more logical explanation is that we gained complexity over time through generations of trial and errors ,mutations and directional selection. We adapted to our environment. That's why we are black skinned and North Americans are that colour.
As far as I know, this planet is favourable to our existence just enough for us to live(oxygen etc),nature is actively trying to kill us. There is nothing keeping anything in order. The sun remained the sun when we were not here. The seasons were the seasons when dinosaurs roamed the earth. We are not special in the in comprehensibility of the universe.

Ninilowo: Ds ur new name is the name of a school in Ikeja or something like that.

Lol but it isn't .

Emylexray: what makes you convinced?

It was manufactured by the religionists to control people through fear. To give people purpose because let's face it,this life is without a clear cut purpose. People hanged on to it for support and support only. I have got rid of that fear and I no longer need the support.

Amacaco: My friend,you never knew God and God also never knew you. That you chose to "abandon" Him does not make any difference to who God is and to his personality. That a cancer or HIV ridden patient refuses to believe in the efficacy of the drugs given to him or even to take those drugs (a right he can fully exercise)does not change anything,rather he is rapidly on the way to his grave.The fact that it is on nairaland that you researched in order to get your religious bearing strongly indicates how serious you were with your religion. One day we all will stand before the Almighty God to account for the single opportunity he gave to us to be saved.Because the scripture tells us that unto Him shall all men come. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God for GOD is a consuming fire.

You don't know me and the vigour with which I practised my religion,that's why.
It wasn't only on Nairaland.in fact the research didn't come from Nairaland. It just opened my eyes. Sometimes,I just wonder at the unbelievable changes that came over me.

fellis: I am theist and I believe that we human beings did evolve, I don't think belief in evolution nullifies your status as a theist.
My religious book teaches that EVERY living thing was created from water. When I read about the formation of the first micro organisms from that first 'Cosmic Soup', my faith only increased. . . . My point is that a lot of these scientific theories are actually supported by religion, it is just that people have destroyed the message religion is supposed to pass across by years and years of modifications.
Avicenna, when you look at the way human form is ordered, the way we evolved so beautifully, with adaptations for almost any challenge we might face on earth (blood clotting on exposure to air, antibodies in breast milk to protect sensitive babies from infections, hormones released by the body when necessary ( hormones for us to mature from children to adults, hormones for us to react to external stimuli, hormone for a mother to have a dying love for her new born baby which compels her to love and care for it so life can go on, hormones for our bodies to store energy instead of expending it all at once), when you look at the Universe and how it runs smoothly year after year, how the constant state of matter being neither destroyed nor created hasn't changed, how the planets run a certain distance and course and arrangement round the sun, year after year, without getting disordered and crashing into each other.
When you see these things do you not wonder that there might be a force keeping everything in order and ensuring that the running of things goes on in a way that is conducive for life to remain on earth? Do you not think there is a force behind all this?
OP please answer this question, sorry for the long post but I will appreciate for you to read it carefully before answering.

Everything you wrote in support can be explained without regard to the supernatural or God in fact. The only defense you brought forth is that of sheer beauty,elegance and the complexity yet simple nature of everything. These are not scientific and evidential defense. When properly explained,they sort of lose their lustre and become ordinary that is it becomes inconceivable to believe some force is behind it.

KgSolomon: @OP, if i come in contact with you, just 2hours is enough u will come back here renouncing the devil you proclaimed.

You will be surprised who will run back here renouncing God.

KgSolomon: @OP from your post i can see that u are yet to graduate from school, you ar still a boy.

I was ignorant like you before, until i faced a near death experience where i battled between life and death, if you get there u will understand perfectly, you will not need a preacher to tell you about God.

Even a donkey can testify that there is God talk more of a human.

Note: Christianity is not a religion, it is divinity at work in a man. You were once a Muslim and now a pagan they are still the same thing you don't know God yet to talk about him.

Haha. I don't regard myself as a boy neither do those that know me. Mr man,I practise on cadavers,I help in treating accident victims and sick people. I know more about death and near-death experiences than you probably do.
Pagans,donkeys indeed.

numo86: Atheist u can do whatever u like....
Like u guys said its ur life ba?
I wonder what u guys will teach ur kids in d future..I just wonder...
What exactly will u teach them....?
To just live life devoid of Jah??
And u can call that a life?
Like d op said he's nt accountable to anybody except to himself,....
Does that statement sound normal.....
Well u guys can keep on running away from God and his handi-works.....1 day na 1 dÀy o...
u guys want to see God one on one b4 u believe in him right
But it still baffles me to see how a fellow atheist like u who is a scientist will tell u how far d earth is from d sun and u belive immediately even when u urself never did d measurement.....
But to believe in a wonderful creator who has created u and put everytin in place u need him to come down to beg u to serve him and believe in him??

Its way normal than believing in any religion.
As for my kids,they will be allowed to choose but one thing I won't do is to hide true self from them.
See,that's the thing. Scientists will PROVE that measurement. Nothing is just thrown out without adequate testing. As opposed to religionists who will ask you to take it on faith. This applies to all religions.

emmerks: di understand ur what u are going 2ru now and will want u to know that u are not alone, there are so many that has pass 2ru dis stage, dat are passing 2ru it, and will pass 2ru it. My advice to u is dat u need to come in connact with works of philosers, most esp those of the medieval period. I wish we can chat

Oh, I have read philosophers , trust me
But why should I believe some of those philosophers when I obviously know more than they do? Not because I may have superior intellect but because the time is different.