₦airaland Forum

frosbel:
Where is LOVE in this equation ?

Which of all the loves are you asking about?
Remember Greek has four kinds of love (i.e. agape, eros, philia and storge)

frosbel:
Yes and good, God has given us the example of LOVE, i.e selfless giving even to one's enemies, should this not also be our pattern of faith ??

Yes it should but then selfless giving doesnt mean refusing, declining or not accept a reward of recognition for the selfless giving.
In the bible and medieval times it would be suicidal to refuse an earthly king's request or offer
Every word that proceeds from the mouth of the king is law.
One is to give reward(s) for doing certain things

frosbel:
Depends on which system you are referring to, i.e the system of a DEAD
Cult parading as Christianity or a system of LOVE after the will of God.

I think that most people would agree with me that the system which predominates in Nigeria especially is the system of a DEAD Cult , hence the endless scandals, dark exposures , oppression and exploitation of unsuspecting and mostly ignorant sheople.

A system with over 40,000 denominations and even a higher number of doctrinal positions cannot be said to come from ONE SOURCE,
it is a confused conglomeration built and maintained by self-appointed egomaniacs with their willing or unwilling minions who do their bidding and entrap more innocent people into this dead and dangerous system.

This is the system you have come to represent and which I REJECT.

Our troops run into the tens of thousands and WE are creating dents all over your mythical system of fraud, very soon these dents will become holes and then lead to a total collapse.

Our Objective : To free to sheep to worship their God in spirit and truth , not according to the whims and caprices of MEN !

Anyone who keeps hammering on about IQ is either suffering from inferiority complex or does not have an IQ to begin with.

- EXCERPT -

https://s29.postimg.org/4ezs7i8qf/God_Guessers_c.jpg,
God is denomination agnostic,
furthermore that Ignatius' "ekklesia katholicos" phrase was hijacked for political and personal gains to mean something else.
- note even Ignatius didn't use "church" but rather assembly to imply a universal vertical relationship/fellowship with God
- the "ekklesia katholicos" phrase was first used and found in Chapter 8 of Ignatius' Epistle to the Smyrnaeans

The "ancestry and lineage of the modern day Christian" as we presently know it, is public knowledge

1) Jesus never founded a church.
What is 100% certain, is, He said He will build "ekklesia" (i.e. Matthew 16:18) and not "church"
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, a small rock
and upon the large rock I will build my congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones},
and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her."
- Matthew 16:18 Jubilee Bible 2000
2) The word "Church", in letter and/or substance, clearly metamorphosed from "ekklesia"
- Someone assisted and aided RCC get the prominence status it claims
- Another someone had strong vested interest and a lot to gain in changing the meaning of "ekklesia" from congregation to "church"
- Someone with accomplice(s) made the transition(s) from "ekklesia" (i.e. called out to assemble) to "church"

https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents/19#25801245

- /EXCERPT -

PS: "ekklesia katholicos" means Universal Church or Cathoilic Church

frosbel:
Overcome sin for salvation and not for LOVE ??
Are you not getting things all mixed up,

No, not all, I am not getting things all mixed up
Yes, Overcome sin for salvation

For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son,
that every one who trusts in Him may not perish
but may have the Life of Ages
- John 3:16 Weymouth New Testament

This is real love--
not that we loved God, but that he loved us
and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
- 1 John 4:10 NLT

We have known and believed that God loves us.
God is love.
Those who live in God's love live in God, and God lives in them.
- 1 John 4:16 GOD'S WORD® Translation

We love him, because he first loved us.
- 1 John 4:19 King James Bible

frosbel:
...is Salvation not the end of LOVE
or is LOVE the beginning of Salvation ?

Salvation is the end of damnation
Salvation is the beginning of basking in the presence of Love and enjoying Love

shdemidemi:
MI5 ke...noooo.
I am only presenting what I read from scriptures. Take me outside sripture, this guy go finish me.

There is MI5, and there is MI5 wink wink

shdemidemi:
See me see the bobo o..setting up a snare for me like one detective wey no know work

vooks is a sniper, highly trained marksman as it is, picks and takes targets out, one by one, from a distance with exceeding capabilities
and you I know you are MI5/MI6 trained so it is a matter of Isaiah 54:17
- you match each other

shdemidemi:
He says they will be clothed in white raiment, he will not blot out their name out of the book of life, he will confess their name before His Father, and before his angels.

vooks:
Excellent
1. By saying he will not blot out their names from the book of life, can we wisely infer that their names are ALREADY in the book?
2. Overcomers names will not be blotted form the book of life, NON-Overcomers' name will be blotted out of the book of life. Do you agree?

vooks salivating and patiently corralling since 1000 BC
I fleetingly saw vooks almost bring the halo down the neck to choke with and go for the kill

vooks:
BabaGnoni, a man I hav maximum respect for,

When a prophet was sent to decree judgement on David the King following his adultery with Bathsheba, he was given a parable and he reacted with outrage demanding that the offender be killed or something. You can imagine the whirlwind of emotions and mental anguish when he was told that he is that man. Am sure David would have been the last to stone the woman caught in adultery

There are many lessons from this passage but for now, lets focus on the tendency for us to be judgemental and critical.
This is usually directed at people or circumstance that we are not part of.
As long as it is 'others' and not 'I', it is game

No, it is not game, it is love and duty, also for love of the kingdom, as you dont want as Ezekiel 3:18 states, anyone's blood on your hands

When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,'
and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life,
that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
- Ezekiel 3:18 NIV

vooks:
Tozer once said,
'a Pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself while a spiritual man is hard on himself and easy on others'.

The bittermost critics of the church are those who have never done any ministry.
I used to be critical of missionaries until I went to the bush for two weeks,came back with malaria,sunburns and scorpion bites. It was humbling.

Regardless of what model you propose, as long as it is ran by mortal and fallible men, it will always fall short.
With this in mind, I always try to temper my bile with realism and respect for those who are actually trying to do something....
more on this later

Hard on self, the Pharisee and the "Far-To-See" including the Sadducces and the "Sad-To-See" but easy on others is the philosophy

Reminds me of the "Be Prepared" popular Boy's Scout Motto and evergreen Luke 14:28

"But don't begin until you count the cost.
For who would begin construction of a building
without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it?
- Luke 14:28 NLT

Not every is called or cut out to be missionaries.

shdemidemi:
I think there is a place for calling preachers to order in love and there is also a place for joining in the soul winning missions.

As we know, there are two seeds going out from the church. A real seed and a lookalike seed from the devil.
What exactly is the point or what good is it if we promote those who are planting the lookalike seed regardless of how noble they come across?

If the shoe was on the other foot, I personally wouldn't mind others giving me the proverbial boot up the jacksy to bring me down from my ivory tower, to get things done right and the right way

Bidam:
I love this especially the Tozer quote.
I laffed when someone mentioned he wasn't called to be a pastor. So the mandate to preach the gospel falls in the lap of only pastors abi?
Was Paul not actively involve in his own "pharisee gospel" by persecuting the church when God arrested him?
Must Jesus appear to you literally before you know you are called?
In Africa where internet is a luxury "the target audience" is small compared to the west.
It is better for frosbel and his ilks to carry these their modern gospel to as far as sambisa forest, may be they could save our chibok gals.
Let us give honour to missionaries, pastors and believers who are sacrificing their lives daily on the altars of boko haram in Northern Nigeria.

Persecution is very rife here in the North where i stay, you won't see frosbel giving at least a passmark to missionaries in the North..
All he and others do is hide behind screens and attack the church without lifting a finger....
Destructive Criticism never solves any problem.

The small "target audience" are actually soaking up information and primed to unleash them for such as time when the internet would no longer be a luxury in Africa

Wisdom according to Matthew 10:16, really should stop anyone having a death wish sacrificing their lives daily on the altars of boko haram in Northern Nigeria

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
- Matthew 10:16 King James 2000 Bible

Kudos to those, who face persecution in the North where it is very rife there
Until the shoe is in the other foot, personally wouldnt know which it'll be: fight or flight

frosbel:
Is someone who overcomes sin for REWARD and not LOVE a Sinner or a Saint ?

Dont get it twisted
One overcomes sin for salvation, reward comes as a recognition of doing or overcoming certain things

frosbel:
There are 3 types of people in this world,
those who are bad, those are good for the sake of reward and those who are inherently good, which one are you ??

I hope your reply will not be 'BabaGnoni's primary aim is reward NOT Love'.

None of the above. That postulation is frosbel's and not scripture
The bible says there are two set of people:
Sinners or Saints (i.e. Righteous)

frosbel:

You havent finished scattering English & the bible, it's Italian that's next on your plate
Or should I order you some home delivered hot and spicy Chinese Chow mein?

frosbel:
No time for circular , work don start oo

Keep up with the rants though but go back and read my opening statement.

Summary : Avoiding SIN ( 10 commandments etc ) for LOVE is the Gospel, avoiding SIN purely for reward is Christian Hedonism and the epitome of selfishness.

There are 3 types of people in this world, those who are bad, those are good for the sake of reward and those who are inherently good, which one are you ??

Chow !

Rants?
And now, Chow !
Chow!? Chow!?? Chow!?? ROTBL

vooks:
Shdemidemi,
Could you please follow your own advice and tell us what Jesus is saying here and not what He is not saying

Revelation 3:5King James Version (KJV)
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

cc ayoku777,BabaGnoni

shdemidemi:
He says they will be clothed in white raiment, he will not blot out their name out of the book of life,
he will confess their name before His Father, and before his angels.

If spotless (i.e. white raiment), you've hit a home run and would be personally introduced to God the Father and rub shoulders with His Angels

italo:
Yes or no answers are not too difficult.

1. Were the people in Matt 7:22 justified?
2. Were members of the early Corinthian Church justified?
3. Did the members of the early Corinthian Church sin?
4. Was St. Paul justified when he wrote Romans 7?
5. Was St. Paul sinning when he wrote Romans 7?
6. Was Paul talking to justified believers in 1Cor6:8?
7. Were the people Paul was talking to in 1Cor6:8 doing wrong and sinning?
8. Do wrongdoers go to heaven?
9. In Rom11:20-23, was Paul talking to Roman justified believers?
10. Could these people be cut off from Christ?

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
>> Ans: Yes
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No

The people in that verse weren't genuine saints to start with
italo check the argument in Romans 3:7 out for reasons behind the binaries given above

Someone might argue,
"If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
- Romans 3:7 NIV

You are right that "Yes or no answers are not too difficult", which is what was easily done with your original 1-3 questions with an instructive added bonus Romans 3:7 scripture
(i.e. as seen, your original 1-3 questions reproduced above)

vooks:
Last time,

DOES (present continuous tense) Holy Spirit reside (present continuous tense) in some people temporarily? Yes/No?

To be honest, I haven't fully followed this discourse the resisdence of the Holy Spirit between you and shdemidemi
but just want to chip this in , it might be relevant or simply way off chart

Holy Spirit is just like electricity, it is always there
It could be there dormant, not live or temporarily off, though the wire is plugged into the mains but the switch on the wall is off
It could be permanently flowing until when unplugged or when the switch on the wall is turned off

Our brains apparently is a source of electricity. The nervous system is a conduit that carries the electricity to various points of the body to cause motion, kill parasites etcetera
Do some readings on electric diet, electric and alkaline foods

shdemidemi:
The bible did not leave us guessing or making assumptions with the issue of the unrighteous.
The fate of an unbeliever is written in white and black for all to see.
All I am saying is that we must stick to what was said and not think out what was not said- error might creep in.

There isnt anything wrong with thinking out what was not
Error MIGHT creep in but that isnt always going to be case
The mind is for stretching, if not stretch beyond it elasticity breaking-point, no harm to it will be done nor will hell be let loose
Imagine Moses walking along and not turning round to investigate an aberrant
- bush on fire but not burning

shdemidemi:
Please address the rest of the questions

If God really knows the end from the beginning, would He really need to be blotting out names that He had written?

The book of Revelation says only a remnant of 14400 will be saved, don't you think He knows them already if He can know their number?

Is God a reactive God, does He do plan B, do things catch him off guard to necessitate improvisation?

"...blotting out names that He had written..." means God had previously done an alpha test before release
He already knew Joe Blogg will renounce or abandon the faith

Once saved, always saved. Sure, but nothing stopping anyone from jumping ship
No one is going to hold anyone bawling or screaming into the Kingdom
- babies dont even scream entering earth, of course not until when whacked on the bum

italo:
1. Were the people in Matt 7:22 justified?
2. Were members of the early Corinthian Church justified?
3. Did the members of the early Corinthian Church sin?
4. Was St. Paul justified when he wrote Romans 7?
5. Was St. Paul sinning when he wrote Romans 7?
6. Was Paul talking to justified believers in 1Cor6:8?
7. Were the people Paul was talking to in 1Cor6:8 doing wrong and sinning?
8. Do wrongdoers go to heaven?
9. In Rom11:20-23, was Paul talking to Roman justified believers?
10. Could these people be cut off from Christ?

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Jokester... trust my guy, italo.
This 1-10 is a revised version after the first 1-3 botched attempt
Go over my post up there, your earlier 1-3 and the revised 1-10, was preemptively touched in it

italo:
Ah...so you're alive. Now can you answer the queries I put to you?

And yes, I can call anyone who does bad a baddie...or anyone who steals a thief...or anyone who lies a liar...
or anyone who pretends a pretender...or anyone who sins a sinner.

No fallacy there.

I am alive and kicking
As mentioned above stop playing amnesia, you have already been answered

Not so fast Watson, who mentioned: "...call ANYONE who does bad a baddie"?
I wrote is YOUR CHILD who does bad, a baddie?
Do you call your CHILD, that's if you have any at all, a baddie?

Taking it further, does the bible teach that believers (i.e. christians) are sinners or teaches that they are righteous (i.e. saints)?
Yes or No?
Which? Sinners or Saints? (i.e. righteous)
Back up your answers with scripture (i.e. validate it with scripture please)

shdemidemi:
My friend I never evaded your question, I asked the last one that is yet to be answered if anything.

Are you minding him...
He is learning selective forgetfulness and convenient ignorance just like frosbel does sometimes

italo:
As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21
²¹“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
²² On that day many will say to me,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’
²³ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.

BabaGnoni:
1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
>> Ans: Yes
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No

The people in that verse weren't genuine saints to start with
italo check the argument in Romans 3:7 out for reasons behind the binaries given above

Someone might argue,
"If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
- Romans 3:7 NIV


Goshen360 with some instructives, had earlier did some overtime on righteous and the righteousness of God in Christ

Jesus in Luke 5:32 and Luke 15:7 hinted what a sinner that repents becomes.
The fact & truth of the matter, is that sinner after repetance becomes righteous
Sinners translate and become righteous (i.e. received righteousness via Christ)

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
- Luke 5:32 NIV

I say unto you,
that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
- Luke 15:7 King James Bible

In the same way,
I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
than over 99 righteous people who don't need to repent."
- Luke 15:7 ISV

The righteousnes of God in Christ is superimposed on a repented sinner, so that what God sees, is not sin, but rather what He sees, is His righteous, in Christ.
The repented sinner no longer has the sinner tag, he is now a new creation, old things have passed away and all things about him/her has become new
The person is now RIGHTEOUS and as opposed to been called a SINNER, is now called a SAINT

One who believes is a believer. One who preaches is a preacher.
One who doesnt believe is an unbeliever. One who sings is a singer. One who teaches is a teacher.
So does it require rocket science to know that one who sins is a sinner?
- © italo

italo, this is a logical fallacy because your child that does anything BAD, but is not necessarily called a BADDIE
In every parents' eye, their kid wont melt butter in their mouths, so are saints in God's eyes or with God (i.e. saints aren't called sinners)
- it's all down to the Righteous of God in Christ that saints possess or have

Scripture 1 Peter 4:18, like lets us know that there is a distinction between the sinner and the righteous

And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
- 1 Peter 4:18 Holman Christian Standard Bible

The above © italo copyright does not apply or work with the Saints‎. Saints sins but have the opportunity to approach the throne of grace boldly for mercy (i.e. forgiveness) and assistance when their world crumbles and/or in the times of trouble like after sinning (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

We all sin at the drop of the hat but it in the context of now been made righteous and being a Saint, it doesn't necessarily make us sinners
‎- Sinners are those bound to or heading for destruction in the Lake of fire. This is the instructive distinction of who is a sinner and who is a saint

Now we know that God heareth not sinners:
but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth
- John 9:31 KJ Bible

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin?
God forbid.
Galatians 2:17KJ Bible

Saints that sins ARE NOT sinners, but are saints or righteous that sin
Saints can revert back to sinners though

Grace, is the ability to do things effortlessly, like ability to refrain from effortlessly sinning
(i.e. not sin easily and without having to struggle with not comitting sin)

Birds fly gracefully, they fly without struggling (i.e. God gave them that grace),
Saints are given grace NOT FOR sin or sinning but given grace NOT to sin (i.e. ability to effortlessly not sin)

https://www.nairaland.com/2076644/christian-justify-still-guilty-charged/1#29626486

Notice the red text from the above that he was answered

italo:
I wish I could help the guy above but how can you help a guy who says that Jesus' gospel is different from Paul's gospel
...and that the Jesus on earth is different from the one in heaven now.

His problem is too deep.

italo:
The above is the first thing I said about him when I got on this thread.
Then one biased BabaGnoni accused me of ad hominem and not arguing logically.
Then i decided to engage him in a reasonable discussion while quoting BabaGnoni all the time,
alas...the BabaGnoni has since disappeared into Afi River Forest.

There you go again.
Why couldnt you leave out "biased" when mentioning the ID?

"...accused me of ad hominem and not arguing logically..."
- © italo

accused me of ad hominem and not arguing logically?
Regarding the "ad hominem", you were getting personal with shdemidemi instead of tackling his current post or submission
C'mom admit it, you strayed when you outlined some of his opposing viewpoints which werent within the scope of this thread raised by FortresOfChrist

Regarding the "not arguing logically", I posted you made a logical fallacy
because if according to you, one who preaches is a preacher, teaches is a teacher, sings is a singer, bakes is a baker
and then drum roll, your pièce de résistance, one who sins is a sinner
why then is not your child who does bad, not a baddie
This is where I said you made a logical fallacy (i.e. you made a mistake)

alas...the BabaGnoni has since disappeared into Afi River Forest
- © italo

BabaGnoni has since disappeared into Afi River Forest?
You got that wrong, as BabaGnoni, personally would have preferred disappearing to the top of Afi Mountain

You don't know the half of it. You sure made me laugh
italo, subtlety is the art of saying something and getting out of the way before it is understood

shdemidemi:
The book of Revelation of Jesus Christ unveils the person of Christ in His glory accompanied with judgement.
When Jesus visited the world as a baby, his glory was veiled but the book of Revelation depict Jesus as a severe judge coming with power, even the stars of heaven will fall on that day.

No grace in this book or at this time anymore, no justification in this era
- the book of James and Peter and some part of the four gospels perfectly fit in to this book like hands in glove.

People will be judged by their works, ability to endure an inexplicable suffering that will see people cook their own children for a meal.

A time when you will have to be tagged as a non-christian or suffer the despicable and abhorrent consequences.
Words can't describe the tribulation that is to come at the time of this Great Tribulation,
yet your salvation can only be achieved if you endure to the end.

It is not a free gift like we have it now, it will be WORKED for in full.
A hand full of people will survive this period.

shdemidemi, God bless you for shouting this out from the rooftop
- it sure puts the frighteners on someone

Bleurgh!
One shudders at the manner of inexplicable suffering which will make a parent turn their kids into morsels of food.

Will parents REALLY be protecting themselves from dying of hunger or death by starvation
by ACTUALLY boiling and cooking their own children for morsels of meat?

Will parent without trying to help their kids or put their kids first, be that desperate to resort to cannibalism?

Eating of human flesh by a human being, to save their own hides, skins or flesh?
- God forbid, but, if the boot or shoe were on the other foot, by God's grace, rather them than me

What a shame. What an ignoble and abominable act this will turn out to be.
- despicable and abhorrent consequences indeed

frosbel:
It was painful to read the rant you just 'spat out' , but let me reply in just a few sentences.

- Go back and read the article , it is about overcoming sin by imbibing LOVE , a genuine heart felt love not a superficial feeling
- By LOVE I mean doing things with the primary goal of promoting the happiness of others and not self.
- By LOVE, I mean fulfilling the greatest 2 commandments that Jesus proclaimed and promoted
- We are to be perfect as God who is perfect, hence LOVE should reign supreme in our lives

Let me give you some examples :

1. Joseph when tempted by Potiphar's wife did not overcome for the sake of reward but because of his LOVE for God
2. When the children of Israel sinned and God's judgement was about to fall on them, Moses asked that his name be blotted out of the book of live for LOVE.
3. When Jesus surrendered his privileges and status, it was for LOVE, in fact the joy he was looking forward to was the REDEMPTION of Mankind.
4. Stephen died because of his LOVE for his people and his GOD.

If you BabaGnoni refuse to sleep with your neighbours wife because of a crown in heaven not because you love your neighbour, if you refuse to embezzle money not because of your love for the people it will impact but for a crown of life, if you refuse to kill not because of love ( hate may still be in your heart ) but because of a crown of live, THEN YOU MUST BE THE BIGGEST HYPOCRITE since 6000 BC and most miseable of fellows.

Here is Paul's advice for you ;

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant.." - 1 Corinthians 13:3-4

I had previously told you that you are a Johnny-come-lately on all these false positives and red herrings
As you read on https://www.nairaland.com/2055387/frosbel-now-atheist/17#29574178, the testimony of TV01 is proof, that others are one page or pages ahead of you in the "manual"

frosbel:
The only difference between me and you for now is the Virgin Birth.

We both agree on :

- Tithe
- Trinity
- Hell
- Possibly others like church , rapture etc.

We disagree on the Virgin Birth , We are still learning.

If these things which were taught to us were found to be false then what are the chances that the other things taught to us by the same institutional Christianity are true ?

You once said the quote shown above concerning my person, so it shows I have walked the path you're on
I have swum in the deep waters you are currently wind- surfing in
This is why I always repeatedly say, you cant teach grandma how to suck eggs
- "Moti wẹ okun, mo ti wẹ ọsa" literaly means "I've swam the Atlantic Ocean, I swam the Lagoon"

frosbel:
What happened to doing what is right for the sake of doing what is right
and for the love of God and our neighbour, without expecting any reward whatsoever ?

I guess as usual, you conveniently forgot you wrote the above bolded which prompted the response you got, which you now want to turn on its head

frosbel, the desire to do the will of God has nothing to do with accepting a recognition for achieving or doing an act
Expecting to accept the recognition does not devalue act or diminish the desire to do the will of God

You must have a dim view of God.
- God says there a reward and you are going pear-shaped with it
Who is right? God or frosbel?

A lot of these things are wisdom decisions, wisdom and understanding things (i.e. Proverbs 4:7)
Ask Joseph how it went down with Potiphar's wife
- it was the fear of God (i.e. Proverbs 9:10, Genesis 42:18 and Genesis 39:9) that stopped or prevented the illicit liaison

Circling back, I am re-echoing TV01, if you are truly seeking you'll find your way back - if you have faith, He'll lead you. I can but testify.

vooks:
There is NOTHING you can point in church today that hasn't existed since Pentecost my broda.
So lamenting about these is a tad tedious and unnecessary bloviating.
It's like wondering why that the sun is still rising daily in 2015 yet it has always done that since Genesis.
What am aksin is, what next after identifying the 'deviations'?
Do you wait until the next round of deviations so you can point them out?
Martin Luther pointed out the rot in the church and to day we still read him.
He did more than criticize; he challenged, wrote about and set the church on fire.

As your friend, am proposing that since you have had enough of the church in Nigeria, start yours free of these very things you can't stand.
Holla@ me once you are done

vooks quit the tongue in cheek
This is not a thread for poking fun

vooks you would agree it is not a matter of starting "churches"
vooks you would agree that helping with breaking the yokes and assisting with taking down burdens laid up by man on to man (e.g. tithes, firstfruits, staged healings etcetera) did not require starting "churches"

You say "There is NOTHING you can point in church today that hasn't existed since Pentecost"
if so, why then are some of us still plagued by Hosea 4:6 then?

Who has bewitched us, that we should not obey the truth?

If we are still plagued by Hosea 4:6, then what's next and more the reason, is we need to continually identify and repeatingly point out the 'deviations', the next 'deviations' and the next round of deviations until seventy times seven times

vooks dont propose setting up a "church" rather give moral support and blessing

lastmessenger:
Again I have not been called into the minstry as a pastor.
Therefore opening a church or fellowship is out of the equation.
[size=5pt]Please tell how I am massaging my ego. Is it a lie that the church has derailed from the message of love.
Is it not in Nigeria that a man of God charged gate fee for their cross over night?
Are you not the same person who uploaded a book titles synagogue of satan?
How am I massaging ego by telling the truth. Bro sometimes I don't understand you[/size].

frosbel:
^^^
Best ignore Vooks, by their fruits you shall know them.
When you stand for the truth expect persecution from the religious crusaders.

honourhim:
What concerns me with opening a church when the exiisting ones are derailing from the standard?
I'm not interested in the corporate church where one man and his wife are regarded as tin gods whose words
and actions must not be questioned even when it runs contrary to the scripture.

I dont want baba-has-spoken gospel.
I dont want position seekers gospel.
I dont want holy nwaeje gospel.
I dont want church of politics.
I dont want money money gospel.

I want a simple gathering of those who yearn for daily personal encounter with Jesus (not via baba)
Of those who yearn for the truth.
Of those who yearn for revival and pray for it.
A gathering where we will in honour prefer one another.
Where love reigns as shown by Christ and the apostles.
Where everybody will care about everybody's good.
Where the holy spirit will operate freely as it was in the days of old.
I hate going to church and not getting revived. Its a waste of time.

vooks is merely exasperated
- it's frosbel, he can drive some one up the wall
He, vooks, means well, he was just rooting for you so that you be in a position of getting your soul winning reward
- the CROWN with SOUL WINNERS diadem on it, given in recognition of efforts or achievements in winning souls for the Kingdom
(i.e. CROWN #5 - otherwise known as the CROWN OF REJOICING)
vooks bark is actually worse than his bite

Congratulations yall, you've officially been pimped Ekklesia-ed ...
- What you think has been going on between each other
- You've all along been having church
- You've all along been doing church

"I want a simple gathering of those..."
- © honourhim

The simple gathering you so much yearn for or desired, is what Ekklesia is all about
Jesus used the Greek model of summoning its citizens called Ekklesia

Ekklesia should not be confused or mistaken for "church" or synagogue
- the former has pagan origin whilst the latter is Jewish

The corporation (i.e. corporate) and/or organisation (i.e. organised) known as "church" is dead
It is different from the original and organic version which is living

"Church" is a Constantine and collaborators invention.
"Church" as we know today is not the church (i.e. ekklesia) of the bible or in the bible
More details at:
(Church History): Where Did We Come From and Where are We Headed?
https://www.nairaland.com/1856979/e-grace-convention-20-14/2#25506104

italo:
I'm not trying to shut him up.
I'm not saying what he said outside affects his argument.
I'm only expressing my pity because I don't know how he can be helped.
I've known him for some time and I know he doesn't see things logically.

Going by the above, seems you are prejudiced against him then to have dragged or brought that in
(i.e. you've made up your mind about him, regardless of his present submission)
- take him on, confront or challenge him on the presence not on the/his past
say your piece, let it arrest him and leave the rest for the Holy Spirit to convict
- dont be play the judge, jury and executioner

italo:
As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21
²¹“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
²² On that day many will say to me,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’
²³ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
>> Ans: Yes
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No

The people in that verse weren't genuine saints to start with
italo check the argument in Romans 3:7 out for reasons behind the binaries given above

Someone might argue,
"If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
- Romans 3:7 NIV


Goshen360 with some instructives, had earlier did some overtime on righteous and the righteousness of God in Christ

Jesus in Luke 5:32 and Luke 15:7 hinted what a sinner that repents becomes.
The fact & truth of the matter, is that sinner after repetance becomes righteous
Sinners translate and become righteous (i.e. received righteousness via Christ)

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
- Luke 5:32 NIV

I say unto you,
that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
- Luke 15:7 King James Bible

In the same way,
I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
than over 99 righteous people who don't need to repent."
- Luke 15:7 ISV

The righteousnes of God in Christ is superimposed on a repented sinner, so that what God sees, is not sin, but rather what He sees, is His righteous, in Christ.
The repented sinner no longer has the sinner tag, he is now a new creation, old things have passed away and all things about him/her has become new
The person is now RIGHTEOUS and as opposed to been called a SINNER, is now called a SAINT

One who believes is a believer. One who preaches is a preacher.
One who doesnt believe is an unbeliever. One who sings is a singer. One who teaches is a teacher.
So does it require rocket science to know that one who sins is a sinner?
- © italo

italo, this is a logical fallacy because your child that does anything BAD, but is not necessarily called a BADDIE
In every parents' eye, their kid wont melt butter in their mouths, so are saints in God's eyes or with God (i.e. saints aren't called sinners)
- it's all down to the Righteous of God in Christ that saints possess or have

Scripture 1 Peter 4:18, like lets us know that there is a distinction between the sinner and the righteous

And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
- 1 Peter 4:18 Holman Christian Standard Bible

The above © italo copyright does not apply or work with the Saints‎. Saints sins but have the opportunity to approach the throne of grace boldly for mercy (i.e. forgiveness) and assistance when their world crumbles and/or in the times of trouble like after sinning (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

We all sin at the drop of the hat but it in the context of now been made righteous and being a Saint, it doesn't necessarily make us sinners
‎- Sinners are those bound to or heading for destruction in the Lake of fire. This is the instructive distinction of who is a sinner and who is a saint

Now we know that God heareth not sinners:
but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth
- John 9:31 KJ Bible

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin?
God forbid.
Galatians 2:17KJ Bible

Saints that sins ARE NOT sinners, but are saints or righteous that sin
Saints can revert back to sinners though

Grace, is the ability to do things effortlessly, like ability to refrain from effortlessly sinning
(i.e. not sin easily and without having to struggle with not comitting sin)

Birds fly gracefully, they fly without struggling (i.e. God gave them that grace),
Saints are given grace NOT FOR sin or sinning but given grace NOT to sin (i.e. ability to effortlessly not sin)

PS: I have to shoot, I can't finish this off so will post as it is

italo:
@BabaGnoni, please be a good referee.

It has nothing to with refereeing, besides, not that I intend to but I havent even got a referee badge
It has more and a lot do with the well known Voltaire freedom of speech saying
It was Voltaire, who said:
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Permit a man to fearlessly post or speak without fear of personal attack to tarnish reputation or fear of character assassination

PS: I have to shoot, I can't finish this off so will post as it is

frosbel:
... Christian Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, gain and heaven by AVOIDING SIN and thereby pacifying a God that is always angry and ready to smite you for the slightest wrong you commit.

Wrong, no, that is your twisted interpretation of and/or what "Christian Hedonism" means
- frosbel, please try to be objective in your post(s), not bitter and subjective

Let's compare this to the Gospel of Christ (i.e. the Good News of Jesus Christ)
and see if christians need to do good in the hope of future blessing(s)

"Sell your material possessions, and give the money to the poor.
Make yourselves wallets that don't wear out! a confused or disorderly mass or collection of things
Make a treasure for yourselves in heaven that never loses its value!
In heaven thieves and moths can't get close enough to destroy your treasure.
- Luke 12:33 GOD'S WORD® Translation

[Jesus continued,]
"I'm telling you that although wealth is often used in dishonest ways,
you should use it to make friends for yourselves.
When life is over, you will be welcomed into an eternal home
- Luke 16:9 GOD'S WORD® Translation

https://s7.postimg.org/abhufg3nb/5crowns.jpg
^{1,2,3,4 or all crowns}

The above are the five crowns christians can work for or strive after

They are the:
CROWN #1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
(i.e. for all who eagerly look forward to Jesus Christ Our Lord appearing)

And now the prize awaits me -the crown of righteousness,
which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on the day of his return.
And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.
- 2 Tim 4:8 NLT

CROWN #2 - IMPERISHABLE CROWN
(i.e. for all with disciplined bodies or who exercised self-control in everything)

²⁵Each competitor must exercise self-control in everything.
They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
²⁶So I do not run uncertainly or box like one who hits only air.
²⁷Instead I subdue my body and make it my slave, so that after preaching to others I myself will not be disqualified.
- 1 Cor 9:25-27 Net Bible

CROWN #3 - CROWN OF LIFE
(i.e. for those who patiently endured trial, testing and temptation)

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,
which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
- James 1:12 KJ Bible,

Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer.
The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days.
But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life.
- Rev 2:10 NLT

CROWN #4 - CROWN OF GLORY
(i.e. for leaders who were not lording others or bossing others around but rather proved to be examples to the flock)

²Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you.
Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly
— not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God.
³Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example.
⁴And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor
- 1 Pet 5:2-4 NLT

CROWN #5 - CROWN OF REJOICING aka SOUL WINNERS CROWN
(i.e. for those who led others to righteousness, as in converting from being a sinner to a saint)

For what is our hope or joy or crown of rejoicing?
Is it not you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
- 1 Thess 2:19 Jubilee Bible 2000

https://s10.postimg.org/7p9zz995h/diadem.jpg
^{Crown with diadems}

Note that crowns can be synonymous with diadems
(i.e. one crown but with a potential of having up to 5 diadems consisting of righteousness, imperishable, life, glory and soul-winners diadems)
A good indication of the rank of enlisted men in the military is by how many stripes they have on
Similarly, in the Kingdom of Heaven, it's by their fruits crown (i.e. or the number of diadems) you shall know them

frosbel:
What happened to doing what is right for the sake of doing what is right
and for the love of God and our neighbour, without expecting any reward whatsoever ?

So frosbel, are christians to be disinterested in any of the above and not expect any reward whatsoever?
Viewpoints like that, is not what the scripture teaches.

frosbel:
Your thoughts are welcome

No offense but you have written a hodgepodge.
It is a confused and disorderly collection of things
It is a mishmash of Kant's moral theory (i.e. Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher) with the typical now getting-used-to frosbel subjective overtones

shdemidemi:
God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.
If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].
34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

italo:
I wish I could help the guy above but how can you help a guy who says that Jesus' gospel is different from Paul's gospel
...and that the Jesus on earth is different from the one in heaven now.

His problem is too deep.

Beats me why people cant stick to subject matters at hand but instead, at any slightest opportunity always resort to ad hominems
This sneaky practice is now becoming a popular weapon used on the Religion forum for shutting, to shut a person down or shut a person up.
Lets stick to the subject matter and leave out whatever anyone says outside it
No offense but please whatever he said outside the subject matter actually does not affect the soundness of his post or argument

FortresOfChrist:
I have been studying the doctrine of Justification for some time
and I must say it's a deep doctrine that beats the human mind of what the Lord our fortress did for us.

FortresOfChrist:
How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress
and some still say they have sin in their lives?

https://s23.postimg.org/mhz7ctxaz/golden_rule.jpg
To justify is to make excuses for one's actions.

Jesus Christ, Our Lord, is the excuse for God's action, to declare a sinner righteous, even with their sins
This is because sin separates us from God but with the brilliant idea of Jesus Christ our Lord, the end (i.e. the salvation of souls)
justified the means (i.e. declared or made righteous in the sight of God for salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord)

Your eyes are too pure to look at evil. You can't watch wickedness.
Why do you keep watching treacherous people?
Why are you silent when wicked people swallow those who are more righteous than they are?
- Habakkuk 1:13 GOD'S WORD® Translation

In spite of Habakkuk 1:13a above, God took advantage of the golden rule and used it.

He declares a sinner righteous even with their sins inasmuchas they are in Christ Lord our fortress because He, God, tolerates the presence of sin in order to wrought out and/or accomplish His purposes with mankind

Some REALLY do not have to still say they have sin in their lives
If knowledgeable, wouldnt say we have sin in our lives, as there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus or who belong to Christ Jesus (i.e. Romans 8:1-10)

Even if we sin or when our world crumbles, we can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, we will receive His mercy, and we will find assistance and grace to help us when we need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

God has taken the rap (i.e. the punishment or blame), so that whoever receives and accepts the gift of salvation wont have to.
He has done the just thing. He did what was morally right and fair Himself, in the person of God the Son, Jesus Christ Our Lord

FortresOfChrist:
Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works?

⁸God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
⁹It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it.
- Ephesians 2:8-9 GOD'S WORD® Translation

⁸For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
⁹Not of works, lest any man should boast.
- Ephesians 2:8-9 KJ Bible

a sinner is declared guiltless without works because the sinner is saved by grace through faith.
The declaration of not guilty or guiltless without works, is a gift.

The gift can be wholeheartedly received or outrightly declined/rejected

Besides, all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment or filthy rags like a menstrual rag (i.e. as the rag of a menstruous woman) in His sight.

FortresOfChrist:
This doctrine of justification and righteousness by faith is really the Lord our fortress doing.

The "justification" of your post and the "righteousness by faith" of writing it up, is really the Lord our fortress' doing.

FortresOfChrist:
So my question is, is one who is justified and declared righteous, still a sinner?

No, not anymore
because one who is justified and declared righteous, has converted from being a sinner to become holy and/or be a saint
(i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:2)

FortresOfChrist:
Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified?

No, it does not teach so.
One cannot remain a sinner if true conversion took place in the first instance and/or at the beginning
- no one has bad kids, but have good kids, good kids that ocassionally do bad things.
- in the same vein, saints that sin or saints sinning dont necessarily make them outright sinners
(i.e. this is because of 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:1-10, 1 John 1:8 and Hebrews 4:15-16)
- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

frosbel:
I am still going back to respond to Goshen,
I have been tied up with that ignoramus of a Vooks and his mentor BabaGnoni.

Bottom line though is that the Virgin birth is a myth but more importantly not a condition for salvation.

vooks and I, tend to come up with the same ideas or similar ideas at the same.

so no wonder in the beginning, we were repeatedly mistaken for each other.

vooks loves many, trusts few (i.e. obviously, you, frosbel, to some degree, currently aren't included in the trusted list) and always paddles his own canoe
He is his own man, has his own mind, a great mind for that matter and so cannot be anyones mentee

The Virgin birth is NOT a myth.

The Virgin birth is not and/or might not be a condition for salvation, it, HOWEVER, is PIVOTAL to the development of the salvation process and to the success of salvation too

frosbel, I know you are to some extent IT software literate.
Tell us, what is the implication of damaged or corrupt normal.dot file? (i.e. the default Microsoft Word template)
How do you fix it or salvage the situation, in order for you to successfully create your spankingly creative and worth the Pulitzer prize word document(s)?
Why did you have to or needed to fix or salvage the situation?

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that
in the last times some will turn away from the true faith;
they will follow deceptive spirits
and teachings that come from demons.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 NLT

It appears you're romanticizing with the devil and it's actually you taking counsel from the "pit of hell"
It's you finding the devil to be a mentor

Be careful frosbel, because when you go on the merry-go-round with the devil, you might not get the chance to get off
- the devil doesn't care about your feelings of "truth seeking" and takes no prisoners on amusement rides

frosbel:
Thanks but I am not an atheist, Christian, Muslim or religious person,
I am first and fore mostly a Truth Seeker who believes in God and the Christ.

Hiswordxray:
People are always looking for fence to sit on.
First it was either Satan or God but people sit on the fence and they call it atheism.
Now it is either theist or atheist but but my brother here is trying to sit on another fence which he called truth seekers.
Maybe someone else with come and find a fence between truth seekers and atheist and I wonder what he would call it

Indecisive, confused people.

johnydon22:
lmao frosbel is just twisting the name...
he is just an agnostic...
google agnostic and u will see the meaning...

either you are a theist, atheist, agnostic (deism)...

- EXCERPT -

ufrosbel actually started as a Christian fundamentalist often shortened as a Fundamentalist, which is not bad at all (i.e. it's safe)

The thing right now, is that frosbel is swimming in waters without strapping a life jacket on
He is doing the "Why did frosbel the chicken cross the Road" highway classic

https://s22.postimg.org/52gkey29d/chicken2.jpg

frosbel is currently on a very slippery slope, a slope with no guardings, no hand rails to hold on to, for if/when he is to slip.
With no hand railing, if/when he does slip, he will be spiralling into a dark & murky bottomless pit

The fact is, he, frosbel is leaving the safe haven of Christian fundamentalism
and is a tenny weeny bit short of fully transitioning to become a Liberal Christian
- in fact, he already is showing almost all the markings of a Liberal Christian (e.g. debunking the virgin birth etcetera)
(i.e. he hasnt completely or fully developed into a Liberal Christian yet)

Potentially, his next phase after becoming a fully fledged Liberal Christian will be Agnosticism

I agree with him (i.e. frosbel) that he will never become an ATHEIST and can never be one, not in this life or the next

I agree because even if HE, frosbel, turns later into neither believing nor disbelieving in the existence of God (i.e. he is unable to make up his mind on the existence of God) he will stay in the closet and hold on DEFIANTLY/STRONGLY to that inveterate habit of God does exist,
this, all to keep or retain the last shred of his sanity or sound mental health left

https://www.nairaland.com/2055387/frosbel-now-atheist/13#29224887

- /EXCERPT -

Gombs:
^^
Just in case you've not noticed, the thread is almost a year old.
Now, it's no news that your stooge,
trustman, has made me laugh as early as last year. I only continued.

Happy New year bro

https://s8.postimg.org/r1jpb9nb9/1st_Fruit.jpg
^^^
"I will still pay my first fruit offering....
Oya go and faint"
- © Gombs

You're absolutely right, I didn't notice that the thread was originally from last year's January
The continuation by trustman, apparently was a blissful reminder
but the way you continued with the smirking POTUS gif was diamond, it made me ROTBL
No doubt your envelope is going to be bulging, thick and fat
Or it's going to be Ghana-must-go bags

Anyway, likewise to you too, Happy New year, again, bro and a year less of potty mouths and/or name-callings

Gombs:
I will still pay my first fruit offering....

Oya go and faint
https://s14.postimg.org/yl97utbgx/bama.gif

^^^
https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Jokester... trust Gombs not to let anyone down

johnydon22:
impossible for me to have a talk with you cus clearly you cant think for urself... please we are done dont mention me again.

^^^
AIIC. Good riddance