₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi:
You must understand the relationship between the nation of Israel and its people is earthly while that of the church is heavenly.

What God gave as earthly in the old is a shadow of what He can do and not a guarantee of what He will do.

You will find the likes of Abraham, Solomon in the old and Paul, Peter in the new.

You lost me with the bold. You want to back track and leave trails for me to clearly follow

by the way, whether it's "the likes of Abraham, Solomon in the old and Paul, Peter in the new" getting priorities right, is open door for hearing from God

shdemidemi:
Bro, you say people hear from God outside His breathed and sanctified word and it isn't for self interest, self-seeking, self-serving, self centred motives. What other reason could it be for, for God?

If we will be entirely truthful to ourself, the only reason we love to hear outside scripture is for SELF.
God has nothing more to gain by talking to me outside scripture, the devil and the flesh have all to gain in such conversation.

He has brought me into the world for a reason. He gave me the message of glad tidings as an ambassador of His kingdom.
He says '[size=32pt]all things [/size]we work together for my good at the end'.

Most of us seem to think 'all things' in the context used are glittery things. 'All things' are the good, the bad and the ugly encounter that will come as a result of the truth we know. The bible calls it the affliction of the gospel.
2 Tim 4
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry

The average christian have moved far away from God's word.
The same affliction and pain the world present in different dimensions is what we claim God always speak to us about. We present the gospel as a path to comfort and riches. We equate godliness to good business, opportunities and wealth.
2 Tim 2
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

We would rather be average citizens who say charitable prayers to soldiers of the gospel, while we hear from God to give us money and yet more money to enjoy our esteemed self.
We unconsciously judge a true man of God by his affluence thus many have left God to meet world standard of what a man of God should look like.

We have deviated from the truth bro, all that matter to us is 'success'.

No brother, far from the truth.
Bro, what are you talking about that you have it smeared all over your mouth. You are way off tangent here,
sorry to say it like this bro but this kind of tunnel vision about hearing from God would not serve any well or meaningful purpose

Is this why one wants or needs to hear from God?
Because of "success", prosperity, riches and/or wealth etcetera?
If yes, then the motives are wrong, and what one will be hear speaking will be flesh, not God.
You asked about the definition of voice.
Flesh talks too, I know you can relate to this truth and fact that flesh has a voice and it talks LOL

Dont be obnoxious about wise decision making, good successes, prosperous and successful lives

We need to study Solomon, to find out about how and why God blessed him and gave him a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like him, nor will there ever be
(i.e. he, Solomon, didnt ask for long life or riches or the life of his enemies but got them all the same because he desired rightly, the first time round)
also study Joshua's account about good success, how God explained the requirement for a prosperous and successful life

Bro, in Jeremiah 29:11, God said:
For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

so for the umpteeth time whatever one hears outside scripture ALWAYS complements scripture and the word of God,
anything else or short of that, is delusional and deceptional

shdemidemi:
God can lead us or influence us by what we know of Him.

It is impossible to hear from or have a relationship with someone you don't know or understand.
A muslim or any other unbeliever can give you enthralling experiences, does that mean it is Jesus doing it for them?

We can't count on our experiences bro, they are too weak, they can disappoint at other times.

^^^
- EXCERPT -

...The man heard a rustle from a nearby bush, it's a grizzly bear he thought, fright beset him, he made a flight for his dear life and so scampered
As he was running, little did he know he was at the edge of the mountain.
He suddenly fell, and was tumbling down the mountain.
As he was doing acrobatic feats he never he had in him down the face of the mountain, he visualised, his entire life from childhood to present reeling before him like as if it was a video

"Alas!" he exclaimed, "if I dont think up something fast, it seems this is where and how I am going to die" he said

So he cried out and said "God, God, God if you are out there, please dont let me die this way"

Miraculously, as the man, was rolling and somersaulting down the mountain in pitch darkness, his hand got hold of a twig of a bush growing on the face of the mountain (i.e. this twig stopped the tumbling, rolling and falling)

As his hand got hold of the twig, he shouted: "Self-experience!"
"Phew! That was a close shave with death" he further blurted out...

https://www.nairaland.com/2016831/john-macarthurs-2013-strange-fire/12#28831418

- /EXCERPT -

What I deliberately omitted to add to the original of the above excerpt, was that the man possibly is an atheist, a muslim or any other unbeliever
(i.e. I wanted to add it but something told me not to whilst posting then)
- notice how without giving thanks or showing gratitude for hearing from God, the "escapade" was turned to experience

shdemidemi:
Now, we must be very careful when we shove things to God. Your heart desire is for you to make a right decision when picking your choice of investment. Whether God chose for you or not is mooted. I wonder what song you will sing if the business hit the rocks tomorrow (not wishing that for you), will you change your song?

Do you make wrong decisions asides this particular one?

Do you still write things in the bush to hear directly from God?

Like you, I have seen many who make claims God showed them their wives. They will almost fight anyone who says other wise, some years down the line they are filing for divorce.

Our experiences remain personal to us, they are not generic formulas to figure God out. The bible remains the surest and safest route to hear God.

God can lead us or influence us by what we know of Him. It is impossible to hear from or have a relationship with someone you don't know or understand.

shdemidemi the bold got me ROTFL

shdemidemi, I dont think anyone disagrees with you that "Our experiences remain personal to us, they are not generic formulas to figure God out. The bible remains the surest and safest route to hear God."

and as was rightly said previously, and as you've just subscribed to, what you are asking about is private and personal, even if no one is explicitly sharing their experience with you, take it that, God speaks and one hears from God aside the Bible.
- it wouldnt be self interest, self-seeking, self-serving, self centred BUT will always complement God's word, complement the Bible and not be imagination(s) or "wuru-wuru" to an answer

"Ati soro ile kun, o tun bere pe, she iya teacher aje ni"
meaning literally
"despite that we've talked so much with a lot on ground, still the question is asked if the teacher's mum is a witch"

"♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ Small girl, you don't know the thing
I am teaching you the thing ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ You are playing with the thing... x3

You want to know the thing , you for be humble
♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ Make you no dey take am dey gamble
e no be gidigidi, e be simple ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Make you no dey rush am, so you no go fumble...

♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ I go show you, make you learn am faster
I be your teacher, I no be your pastor... ♫ ♬"
Atumpan - The Thing ft. Stone

Lyrical satire apart, and now on a serious note, sammied has succintly answered or responded very well to ALL your knee jerk questions about the voice of God (i.e. the speaking, hearing and listening)

Really loved sammied's earlier response and I quote here:
"it matters not what voice he used...(I don't wanna go into that) the most important thing is that He spoke and people heard....
Abi?" - © sammied

"All I ask is for you to tell us what you hear.
You declined the request so I went further to ask how often you hear what you hear, you refuse to give an answer to that as well.
Is it your intention to say a thing and all should accept it as the truth?
I believe questions must be asked and they should be reciprocated with pertinent answers.
If you cannot defend your extrabiblical messages
— either through an audible voice, a vision, a voice in your head, or through an internal impression....
don't you think it will be better you keep it to yourself and register it as 'unsure' even in your unconscious mind."
- © shdemidemi

The irony of you painting and charging sammied with "extrabiblical messages" is that vooks uses the same brush to accuse you too of "extrabiblical messages"
- weird isnt it, you pointing two fingers at sammied but majority three fingers are pointing back at you

"@shdemidemi...
Have you had lustful thoughts about sleeping with women?
What voice was speaking to your thoughts then? Is it a girl,boy or a man's voice?"
- © Bidam

Bidam is on point, voicing is not limited to vocal cords as earlier hinted in a previous post shdemidemi

You have tugged, pulled and tried yanking out of sammied, how God spoke and speaks with him or how he hears from God (i.e. is it audibly, is it in the silence of His presence, etctera)
but I am surprised why you didnt ask questions like: how others makes love with their partners,
surprised you havent asked, what sound they make at org@sms etcetera

These things are similar or are the same things shdemidemi.
It is not that it is inexplicable but some things are private or personal
you, shdemidemi, just have to give the benefit of the doubt since you have no idea of what happens when God speaks, have no idea how it happens when God speaks etcetera.
Since if like the man in the story earlier shared, one who refuses to listen, refuses to acknowledge, refuses to recognise, hardens one heart to the voice of God then one is missing out a huge and great deal

You asked me the question "Baba G... Have you heard God's audible voice outside scripture? This is no joke, I will really like to know"
but before that you said "God isn't a talkative neither is he a reactive God"
well, I'll supplement that with, God the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and wont force gift(s) not desired, recognised, wanted or wont impress gift(s) against anyones wish

Does God have to always speak audibly shdemidemi? Does the bible speak to you at all shdemidemi? If yes, is it audibly?
Stop these ludicrous voice questions, no offense meant.
Just because "God speaking" is abused, it's no excuse to expunge it

Put it this way shdemidemi, and answering you back, sometimes I hear God speak in the quietness or stillness of moments
however importantly, part of my daily and continual prayer is:
"God, please, as I go about by daily runnings and activities, let me hear your voice.
Let me hear your voice, clearly and loudly as I go about things,
and guide me in all or everything with/by your voice"

I liked your 1 Thessalonians 5:21 quotation, it is a good "litmus paper" verse

So shdemidemi, why not prove all things and hold fast that which is good.
If what God spoke or what was heard spoken doesnt complement God's word or the Bible, drop it and flee from it nau LOL

PS: sammied's last entry is a good, strong and water tight testimony. I bow in the presence of an ever speaking God.
shdemidemi, bro, on that sammied's last entry or note, I rest my case on the subject matter, I don't however go the route of labelling you with groups though LOL

shdemidemi:
The bible represent the foundation.
It is full, it is complete, it is inherent..
The bible has given mankind everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him.

Any other way of hearing from God is exclusive, subjective, mooted, unsure. It can never give a full picture of the intent of God.

God lead us if we are truly sons. We don't know what or how he does this but we can only soar and follow in line with the instructions penned in scriptures. He does not need to speak audibly to us to lead or guide us. He does all of this through providence.

My common question is-
In what voice does God speak to you... man's voice, boy's voice, baby's or in a girl's voice?

Our conscience isn't the voice of God, many erroneously conflate the two.

sammied:
I can't believe you're asking what voice God's speak?
When God dialogue with Abraham, spoke to Moses, spoke to the prophet..etc..during Jesus baptism....
what it a man's , boy's or in a girl's voice ?....

Very funny question..got me laughing...when the Holy Spirit spoke through Agabus, what voice did he use?
When God spoke through Balaam donkey...what voice did he use?

shdemidemi:
The bible accounts did not tell us but we believe He spoke because we trust the Word of God.
I asked cos I have never heard it.
If anyone of us have been privileged to hear it, he should be able to tell us in what voice He spoke.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
- John 10:27 KJ Bible

Vocal cords must have been fashioned against an original
God created vocal cords to mimick something original (i.e. a heavenly thing) in the spirit realm which makes or gives utterance

Whether in "a man's, boy's or in a girl's voice", God speaks

and yes shdemidemi, whatever God speaks will always be complementary to His word, the bible and/or Sola scriptura

God speaks to us in diverse ways and/or forms. He speaks in the midst or during grief, death, birth deliveries, tragedies, triumphs etcetera
He speaks audibly or verbally
He speaks through the scripture
He speaks through the elements
He speaks through the wonders of the earth
He speaks in the silence and stillness of the wind
He speaks the list goes on, etcetera etcetera

Whatever God choses, God lends His voice to speak to us

I wouldnt expect vooks to relate to the two below phrases about voices, communication or talking, but I imagine shdemidemi will
"idi to nsoro" literally meaning "sexy talking buttocks"
- phrase usually used when the opposite sex walks with rhythmic buttocks

"Ara de nso funmi" literally meaning "and my body was trying to tell me something about it"
- phrase usually used to imply the body had a premonition of a particular incident and was trying to fore/prewarn about the event"

Notice, both phrases do not embody a "voice" perse, nonetheless, there is communication

Will include this story which did the milk round many years ago. The original story is buried in one of my many hard drives,
which I am not so keen of unearthing from, so instead of unburrowing it, I'll try to rehash the story for the benefit of others but particularly for shdemidemi

There was this man hiking with a group of others across a rough terrain, a wilderness moorland with mountains.
The man somehow got separated from the main walking group and so ended up being lost
As darkness was approching, all the frantic efforts or attempts the man made to get his bearings right to rejoin the main group was to no avail

He was not only lost but it is now pitch black, no moon, it was so black you cant even see or make out your nose
Temperature was dropping and it has start to become very cold.
The man heard a rustle from a nearby bush, it's a grizzly bear he thought, fright beset him, he made a flight for his dear life and so scampered
As he was running, little did he know he was at the edge of the mountain.
He suddenly fell, and was tumbling down the mountain.
As he was doing acrobatic feats he never he had in him down the face of the mountain, he visualised, his entire life from childhood to present reeling before him like as if it was a video

"Alas!" he exclaimed, "if I dont think up something fast, it seems this is where and how I am going to die" he said

So he cried out and said "God, God, God if you are out there, please dont let me die this way"

Miraculously, as the man, was rolling and somersaulting down the mountain in pitch darkness, his hand got hold of a twig of a bush growing on the face of the mountain (i.e. this twig stopped the tumbling, rolling and falling)

As his hand got hold of the twig, he shouted: "Self- experience!"
"Phew! That was a close shave with death" he further blurted out

The man held on tight to the twig, but the night was getting colder and has reached sub-zero temperature
The man became perplexed and unsure over what to do in the difficult situation of hanging onto a twig for dear life he found himself

So the man went like this:
"God, you know I prayed earlier and you answered my prayer. I was saved from falling to my death, saved from breaking my neck or bones
but God if you really are out there, please say something and save me from freezing to death on this twig I am holding and hanging onto"

Then in the stillness of the night, he heard a Voice.
The Voice said "Let go. Let go of the twig"

"Let go ke? Let go of the twig? Let go when the twig is my lifeline?" he thought to himself

Anyway, the man refused ooo. The man hardened his heart. He did not listen to the Voice, he did not recognise the Voice, and sure to happen, the man froze to his death clinging onto the twig he was told to let go off

At the first light of day, the search party which were looking for him found his dead icy body with his hand clasped on to the twig

The man was found holding tightly to the twig, stone-cold dead SIX INCHES ABOVE GROUND LEVEL

⁷Therefore (as the Holy Spirit says, Today if you will hear his voice,
⁸Harden not your hearts, as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness:
- Hebrews 3:7-8 King James 2000

The bottom line is that every sheep hears and knows the voice of the Shepherd

PS: shdemidemi is very funny. He wants someone to tell him how they hear God speak, for him maybe to ridicule it
It's like someone saying tell me how you make love with your woman, I havent had the privilege with my woman
- share with us or tell us how you both do the business

Some things are just private and personal. One will have to cultivate one's own relationship to experience or come across this desire

vooks:
When primates discard the word of God and start reading between the lines instead of the lines, they end up with such fantasies as seven dispensations.
But we are used to Shdemidemi open disdain for scriptures so am not surprised if he spews eloquent garbage and pretends it is from God.
Quite funny given he believes God ONLY speaks from scriptures yet he has tons of extra biblical trash which he does not hesitate to spew

vooks about the dig you took out of shdemidemi, well there are over 100 dispensation in the Bible, the 7 shdemidemi gave are considered the basic ones

By the way, there is a local adage that says "Ti a ba nsunkun, a ma nrinran" literally meaning "even if/when crying, tears don't hinder one from seeing"

Sola scriptura is like the principles of CHRIST, it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness
(i.e. prepares one for living in the Kingdom)

Dispensation, Ages etcetera are like the principles of JESUS, which prepares one for living on Earth

You are familiar with the law of gravity (i.e. what goes up, must come down), the law of thermodynamics
You are familiar with the the Neolithic or Agricultural Age, the Industrial Age, the Space Age, and the current Information Age we are in

Are all these fantansies?
Sola scriptura wont necessarily have these other stuff related to or for living on Earth in red or black and white
- Sola scriptura is more about or for the Kingdom
God, apart from hermeneutics gave "primates" the processing ability to recognise other truths or patterns

Dispensations aren't extra biblical trash which you believe shdemidemi isn't hesitating to spew

sammied:
[size=5pt]It appears that the most difficult thing for Christians to do is to be balanced and wholistic...

The only side of an elephant you see is the part you can describe...I am never a charismatic, cessationanist, pentecostal...etc...and I will never be...any...

Now agreed...there are a lot of errors and excesses in the charismatic circles....likewise the cessationanist circles..no circles is exempted...

Yes...we should stick with the scriptures for doctrines....absolutely...but then to say that God is no longer speaking and that even if he speaks he only speaks through the bible is a blatant lie of the devil and should be taking as gibberish....

Let me ask : what was God original intent/purpose in his relationship with man? Did God give Adam a book or God spoke with him? How did God communicated with Adam n his wife?
If the only way God could communicate is through written word (sola sriptura), why did he not give Adam n his Wife a book?
Was Adam a Prophet, Pastor, teacher or even an Apostle?
What was the goal of Jesus Christ death and resurrection? Was it to restore man back to God like it was at the beginning which will be completed wholly in his scond coming? Why was Jesus called the second Adam?

Is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever like the book of Hebrews said? What did God do in the past that He will/cannot do today?

There are a lot of fake miracles in the Charismatic circles...and I believe God will judge them...but then God still do plenty Genuine miracles through human vessels.( those who believe otherwise don't really know the heart of the Father)

For me..I take the good(the things consistent with God original intent from every side and then move towards the goal of being like Jesus).
Lets stay balanced....extremism is the reason for all the religious wars in the word.[/size]

What was God original intent/purpose in his relationship with man?
Did God give Adam a book or God spoke with him?
How did God communicated with Adam n his wife?
The ORIGINAL intent/purpose in His relationship with man is fellowship (i.e. friendly association)

Another is, family, hence the institution of marriage set up, starting with Adam & Eve

2/3 of the innumerable angels sided with satan, so the purpose is to fill that vaccum
Abraham knew God as a Friend but we have & know God as, God the Father.
- God was/is creating a family

Did God give Adam a book or God spoke with him?
God is Sovereign, and EVERY WORD that proceeds from God is law
- similar to absolutism where earthly king's word is law

Adam was a grown man upon creation who benefited from either "accelerated learning" or "bulk information download"
so answering, no he was not given a book, yes God taught and spoke with him

How did God communicate with Adam and his wife?
In regards to Adam and his wife, God would have communicated in numerous or various kinds of ways like verbally, in the stillness of the wind

If the only way God could communicate is through written word (sola sriptura), why did he not give Adam and his Wife a book?
Mixing up dispensations and their requirements is a rookie blunder
shdemidemi has offered a list of the 7 basic dispensations, one of which is the Dispensation of Innocence
The Dispensation of Innocence did not require written word (i.e. sola sriptura)
- this is why God did not give Adam and his Wife a book

Was Adam a Prophet, Pastor, teacher or even an Apostle?
All the above but not necessarily an Apostle
- Apostle is similar to an Angel, both are sent out, with a message, which essentially is what an Apostle is primarily all asbout

What was the goal of Jesus Christ death and resurrection?
Jesus Christ's death was for Atonement and overcoming sin.
His resurrection was to conquer death

Was it to restore man back to God like it was at the beginning which will be completed wholly in his second coming?
That is the plan and the general idea is to bring us back full circle to how things originally was planned or meant to be

Why was Jesus called the second Adam?
Adam was the template from which human beings were progenerate or produced from
Similar to the "normal.dot" file template from which all your Microsoft word documents are created or produced from
when your "normal.dot" file template gets damaged or corrupted, you wont be able to create new word document files
and if you do manage to create one, it will be error or funny looking
The fix will be to replace the "normal.dot" file template with a new or uncorrupted one

Adam the template got corrupted, so another new or uncorrupted Adam template is needed, this we got in the person Jesus (i.e. the last or second Adam)
So Jesus is called the second Adam because "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come"
- we are now patterned according to Jesus' and not anymore according to Adam's mould

Is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever like the book of Hebrews said?
What did God do in the past that He will/cannot do today?
Absolutely nothing, there is nothing God did in the past, He is not doing or cannot do today however God abides, adheres and/or follows rules, processes, timings, protocols, dispensations etctera

There are a lot of fake miracles in the Charismatic circles...and I believe God will judge them...but then God still do plenty Genuine miracles through human vessels.( those who believe otherwise don't really know the heart of the Father)
Fake is a testimony that genuine healing and miracles exists, and as far as God is concerned, it is business as usual

For me..I take the good (the things consistent with God original intent from every side and then move towards the goal of being like Jesus).
Lets stay balanced....extremism is the reason for all the religious wars in the word.
That is a wisdom talk there
- and as it is usually said, eat the fish but spit out the bones

vooks:
My broda you are off.

Gen 11:26 (KJV)
And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

So Terah died when Abraham was 135 years but Abraham circumcised when he was 99 years
Gen 17:24 (KJV)
And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin

35 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin

But God had called him out of his father's house way back in 12:1. Subtract Ishmael's age of 13 and Abram was already following God at least over 50 years before Terah died. Long and short is your claims are bogus.

Difficult times do not necessarily draw people to God, I know one too many Christians who lost their faith over difficult times and I know many non believers who just can't find God in difficulties. The idea that discomfort and pain draws men to God is the whole reason we had Francis of Assisi ascetism. They think material distracts from worship so they rid of it as as much and beyond the practicable.

When God delivered Israel out of bondage, He told them to never forget that it is He who gave them all that not their hard work. But he still prospered them. That's the attitude becoming a Christian, acknowledging God's providence not despising it like Francis

^^^
Cant agree more to all above, and he was/is 110% way off

^^^
Cant agree more, 110% way off

shdemidemi:
Abraham's father Terah had to die before God got Abram's attention.

^^^
... and what was the meaning or implication of the above?
shdemidemi, you should be above pulling stunts like this one

Terah died at what would be considred a ripe old age

Also, Terah died in Genesis 11, but God spoke about His promises to Abraham 7 times after Terah died
(i.e. twice in Genesis 12, 2nd one in Genesis 13, 3rd one in Genesis 15, 4th in Genesis 17, 5th in Genesis 18-19, and last 6th in Abram, Genesis 21, it was at the last at the 7th time that Abramham relented, after God spoke again when in Genesis 22 Abraham went ahead to sacrifice Isaac)

Mind you, in between all the clear and spoken word of God, Abraham fled to Egypt, committed adultery and lied, out of not believing or not wanting to play game, still God didnt hold it against him (i.e. God just kept hammering on His word & promises to Abraham

shdemidemi:
All I am saying is the Holy Spirit chooses our challenges for us.
He also gives us the fortitude to go through whatever tribulation we might encounter as a result.
The Holy Spirit comforts us mainly through what we know from scriptures.
We seem closest to God at difficult times, God becomes almost palpable at these times.
The bible puts it this way "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

On the other hand, we have comfort which generally come from money.
At a time when we have money or so much money, we should be wary, it is a time where we are spiritually vulnerable.
The bible says -
1 Tim 6
9 But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.

At a time when we are comfortable, it becomes very easy to have false confidence in profane things and lesser confidence in God.

I believe when God really want to get across to a person who would not listen through the word, He sends the message through a disaster.
At such time we don't look to man we look up to God.

I would rather subscribe to the fact that God allows stuff to happen, often times bad or negative stuff.
Afterall, experience shapes character, and character determines ones action(s)
God the Holy Spirit, I agree with you, is a Comforter, especially during crisis or challenging times

Pulling out 2 Corinthians 12:9 is committing a misnomer and hyperbole, as it is used out of context here shdemidemi
Paul was asking to be relieved of his weakness, but God declined, saying, lietrally it is for the best
(i.e. God said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.'')

We formerly were talking about "God speaks clearly and louder to us by disaster" but here with Paul, it was about a request and a request turn down with reasons/explanations

Local adage says "ti omode ba nse bi omode, agba ama se bi agba" meaning literally "where children/underage maybe inexperienced, well grounded sons/grown-ups won't be"

The adage is in relation to the issue of money you raised, the influence and effect money on anyone will depend if one is a child of God or one is a son of God.
Money to a son of God, is a tool, a servant for the purpose of the Kingdom, and not something a child of God might make a god of, to fritter away or indulge in self-gratification with it.
Riches or money if going to be in the right hands, acquired the right way and is right with God is not to be repulsed or deemed to be offensive

What disaster did God bring towards or unto Abram/Abraham shdemidemi?
Abraham only relented at the 7th time God spoke to him about His promise(s) for Abraham.
God really wanted to get across to Abraham who would not listen but going by your over-generalisation, there is no record of God bringing out His "disaster" card to play on/with Abraham

If you are saying you are generalising, then fair enough, because the fact is God doesnt need "disaster" to get the attention of any
- the burning bush experience is an example

True, true that God is the Apha and Omega, who knows the end from the beginning, so anyone wise, won't look to man but look up to God, always.

shdemidemi:
I agree with you here to an extent..
I believe God speaks clearly and louder to us by disaster.
I am sure many atheist-turn-christian found God in disaster.

nlMediator:
Interesting you believe that God speaks to us through bad circumstances but not good circumstances.
Care to share the scriptural basis for this dichotomy?

shdemidemi:
I am sure you know we generally learn more at difficult times.
If any father want the best for his child, he does not give him/her just anything the child demands.
Romans 5
3 Moreover [let us also be full of joy now!] let us exult and triumph in our troubles and rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that pressure and affliction and hardship produce patient and unswerving endurance.
4 And endurance (fortitude) develops maturity of [c]character (approved faith and [d]tried integrity).
And character [of this sort] produces [the habit of] [e]joyful and confident hope of eternal salvation.

If I may add the parable popularly known as the 'prodigal son', the bible says the boy came back to himself only after his suffering.

Luke 15:17
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

If the boy was still in comfort and largesse, would he have ever remember to go back to his good father... I don't think so.

You made a sweeping statement, so nlMediator questioned your dichotomy of positive and negative circumstances
Because of your broad generalization, he asked that you share the scriptural basis that God speaks to us "clearly and louder" by -ve and not +ve circumstances

By the way, Romans 5:3-4 is about welcoming or not shying from tribulations, as tribulations have its benefits.
- the verses have nothing to do with the clarity or volume of God's talk/speech

Of course, after taking leave of "self", we are rest assured that God will be waiting to receive us back with an open arms embrace if/when we decide to come back to "self" (i.e. Luke 15:17)

Though I agree with you, that experience shapes character, character determines action, I think God speaks clearly & louder in midst of -ve & +ve situations.

Also shdemidemi, please be appending the translation(s) version of the Bible verses you quote (i.e. for the benefit of all following the thread)

OASN, I used to turn this thought over in my mind, out of all what's available to use, why use clay (i.e. dust)?
If man is to easily conform, why that type of material to create and/or mould man?
Why didn't God select or choose something else or some other raw material?
Seems God doesn't mind doing things, the hard, difficult, long winding way and then relish enjoying the moment of glory
- the overcome of sin and the challenge of creating man

nlMediator:
Ok. But that still does not justify the claim he's making.

It appears he has made up his mind about cessationism and MacArthur that he sees or hears no evil about them. For him to conclude that because a handful of cessationists he knows have no public scandal, somehow cessationism has better fruit than charismatics, especially when he judges the charismatics by a few public scandals. BTW, where does he classify Ted Haggard who was the president of the National Association of Evangelicals when his issue arose?

For some good critiques of cessationism, I commend the following links:

https://bible.org/article/uneasy-conscience-non-charismatic-evangelical

http://samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/not-all-cessationists-are-of-macarthurs-spirit

Read also the comments in the second link.

Wisdom is known by its fruit. We'll get to know how wise those creating and perpetuating all these divisions in the Body of Christ have been.

This is part of the reason, I am averse to labelling (e.g. Cessationists, WoF, Charismatics, Calvinist, Pentacolist, RCC etcetera)

Interesting links, picked up a new phrase from the first link (i.e. concentric cessationism and linear cessationism)
the second link, had varied reviews and opinions about the John MacAthur and/or cessationists

Personally IMHO, it is akin to skating on thin ice making emphatic and authoritative statements because one presently finds certain things inexplicable

nlMediator:
[size=4pt]This is one of the most ridiculous posts you've ever written. So because you know a handful of cessationists and they have good fruit, that concludes that cessationists leaders generally have good fruit? I doubt that among Christians who know what they're talking about that John MacArthur would hold a candle to Jack Hayford in terms of integrity, intellectualism and length of service.

You're really doing a lot of damage to Christianity with your ignorant posts here. There's absolutely no truth to the claim that cessationists whether among the leadership or rank and file have better fruit than charismatics. In fact many, if not most, Christians with rotten lives are cessationists because they do not let the Holy Ghost work in their lives. And some Charismatics' interest in the anointing helps them to lead clean lives so as not to soil the gift they have.

And why do you suggest that American evangelical and American cessationist are synonyms?[/size] Prompting you to call MacArthur the face of American evangelicals? Obviously, you don't know what you're discussing.

[size=5pt]I'm sorry but yours is an annoying post that makes me question the value of this thread. I'm sure you'll interpret my observation as an insult. But that's neither my interest nor intent. The truth is.[/size]

Hold the fire. You chose a wrong battle, there aren't any battleground here, the battlefront likely is elsewhere

Ease off nlMediator, OP said "...MacArthur has been a face of American Evangelicalism for over 40 years..."
and not "MacArthur the face of American evangelicals" as you make
- notice the difference in OP's "a face" and yours "the face"

Considering the thread is about MacArthur or the 2013 Strange Fire Conference and not about Jack Hayford or Foursquare, it is understandable any harping about John MacArthur and no one else
- favouritism is bound to happen, and the star of the thread, John MacArthur, bounds to get the favors, you cant hold that against OP

McSterling:
[size=5pt]TEXT: Genesis 30:25-43

As can be seen in our text, Jacob was quite an extraordinary man. I feel it necessary to acquaint the reader with our subject Jacob. The reader might be familiar with the story of the patriarch Abraham, who himself was an extraordinary and unnatural man par excellence. This Jacob is the grandson of Abraham. His father, Isaac, and mother, Rebekah, had twin sons: Esau and our humble Jacob. Isaac proved to be as unnatural a father as his own father Abraham; for he loved only one of his sons, i.e. Esau, because he often brought him tasty wild game porridge.


So it happened that Isaac thought he was about to die. He called Esau, and commanded him to go hunt and prepare that tasty wild game porridge that he so relished, so that he might satiate his gastric hankering and simultaneously give him his final blessing. Well, to cut a long story short, our Jacob doublecrossed both father and brother and got the blessing instead. Esau was devastated and vowed to kill him. Now, the reader might be flummoxed about why this "blessing" from a dying father was of so much importance, that one would want to kill for. Well, in those days, a lot of things we regard as trivial, petty or quibbling today, meant a lot. And abstracts were indeed most tangible. Any wonder why a "birthright" could be traded for red stew? Yes, one day Esau( also called Edom because he loved red stew) came home terribly famished, and so he "sold his birthright" to Jacob for a plate of red stew. Thus, Esau vitiated himself; for in those days a birthright was a tangible thing that could be traded for other things.


Jacob(meaning "supplanter" )lived to the true meaning of his name these two times, not by coincidence, for nothing happened by coincidence in those days. It can be correctly conjectured that his parents knew that he would become a supplanter and thus named him so. This might seem incredible to the reader, but as I hinted afore time, these were really strange times and strange people lived in them. Jacob also had an uncanny affinity for blessings and could never have his fill. He went on to wrestle with God himself, and guess what his request was? "...bless me" (Gen 32:26). But this wasn't his most extraordinary feat as we shall soon see.


Jacob's parents christened him "supplanter" but they had no idea how far he would go in this predestined career. They had no idea that he would make a groundbreaking discovery in the scientific field of "genetics" while being about his supplanting.


In our text, Jacob requested leave from his uncle, boss and father-in-law, Laban, after serving him for many years. Laban declined and attempted to placate Jacob in order to make him stay. Jacob then requested for all the speckled,streaked, spotted and dark coloured animals among Laban's flock. Laban assented. Jacob was contented and smacked his lips. Laban, being a myopic, dull and slow-witted bovine-brained dimwit, had no idea what Jacob, our very shrewd,sagacious and wise man, had in the works. Laban left Jacob and the latter went back to tending to the former's bovine creatures.


One early morning, amid the chirping and tweeting of birds, Jacob set out for the woods. He collected fresh-cut branches from the poplar, almond and plane trees and began to walk back home. Once he got home, he began peeling off the bark from the branches, creating white stripes in the peeled off areas. He then proceeded to place these branches in the drinking troughs of the flock. At this juncture, Rachel his wife, who had just awoken, beheld him curiously and incredulously. "What might you be about this early morning, dear husband?",she queried. Jacob ignored her in the guise of engrossment in work. She probed further, then he told her. She burst into a most hysterical laugh. This rankled Jacob and he asked angrily, "wife, why do you laugh so?" She replied by telling him without mincing words that he was about a foolish enterprise, to which he retorted, "we shall see!"


Jacob had told his wife that he intended to breed a slew of sturdier speckled, streaked and spotted bovines by means of making the flock mate in front of the branches he had put in their drinking troughs. Now, the reader might well agree with Rachel that Jacob was about a foolish enterprise and that no such thing as he had expected would happen, but no, Rachel was confounded and flustered as I suspect the reader would be too; for it did happen as Jacob expected. Yes! Jacob was able to breed more speckled and spotted bovines by means of placing them in front of a striped branch! And by this means, he ensured that majority of the young ones born were spotted and speckled. He also ensured that the spotted and speckled were the sturdiest of all the offsprings. So, the slew of sturdy spotted ones went to Jacob and the few weak unspotted ones went to Laban.[/size] Thus, Jacob uncannily and successfully conned Laban, and became a very rich man, living to the true meaning of his name once again while unwittingly and simultaneously making a groundbreaking and precise discovery in the field of genetics ere Gregor Mendel was born.

I dont think Jacob aka Israel would share your enthusiasm of associating him with the Benedictine priest, Gregor Mendel

The diseases and ills we have today are as a result of the likes of Gregor Mendel tinkering with organic plants creating hybrid plants/crops (e.g. soy bean, rice, carrots etcetera) and/or crossbreeding (e.g. cow, the domestic pig - thank Imhotep aka Aesculapius for that one, etcetera) which after many years of consuming and ingesting into the body leads to all sorts of ailments
- hybrids genetically altered organic plants or animals

"Obey my laws.
Never crossbreed different kinds of animals.
Never plant two kinds of crops in your field.
Never wear clothes made from two kinds of material.
- Leviticus 19:19 GOD'S WORD® Translation

^^^
Comic

WinsomeX:
Abuse is an argument for cessationism but it is not the strongest. There are hundreds of arguments against the Charismatics but I will share mine. BTW, like BBG, I have archived the pdf for future read.

My strongest argument against Charismatics is the fruit of their lives. I have observed the lives of leading Charismatics and Cessasionists, their followers and what one could call the average lifestyle of the two groups and must agree that the Charismatics make a poor testimony for Christianity. The case in points are unending. Now, I have been heavily critical of Charismatics here and have revealed the ministers I respect on this forum. The natural thing would have been to locate the skeleton in their lives but no one has even tried bc they will find nothing. John MacArthur has been a face of American Evangelicalism for over 40 years and no one can trace a scandal or a foolish talk to him or his associates. That's fruit. That's how to commend doctrine: by the way we live, not by tongues or miracles. Jesus' words come to play here:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

"Do I need tongues to be saved?
After demonstrating how critical this continual infilling of the Holy Spirit is to the central message of Jesus, people naturally begin to ask: “If I’m not manifesting any miracles, does this mean I’m not saved or ‘sealed’ by the Holy Spirit?” The answer to this question is a resounding “No.”

There are certain Pentecostal groups that specifically believe that one must experience tongues to be saved. This strong claim is only found in a very small minority of Pentecostal churches. Generally I’ve only heard it come from Oneness Pentecostals24 or various groups within legalistic pentecostal churches.

They commonly quote Romans 8:9 which reads:
“And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ”.

And, like many Pentecostals, they believe that unknown tongues are the primary and most probable evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. Thus, they further reason: If you don’t speak in tongues, you’re not saved.

However, as we show in the next chapter, there is no truly conclusive evidence which clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit Baptism doesn’t automatically occur for every believer at salvation. The fact that people haven’t yet experienced unknown tongues (or any other
manifestation) could simply mean that they already have the baptism; and, they simply need to receive better teaching about receiving and “letting the manifestations out.”

Secondarily, there are dozens of scriptures which denote how to receive salvation without any discussion about the Holy Spirit Baptism. I think it’s rather dogmatic and bold to confidently declare that tongues are the only tell-tale manifestation that signals the true evidence of Holy Spirit
baptism (as we will sufficiently show in the next chapter).

Certainly, there is a high possibility of experiencing tongues (according to scriptural precedence); yet, there is no verse that explicitly teaches “You do not have the Holy Spirit unless you have tongues”. So to take this implication in scripture and make it the foundation of one’s salvation theology is all-together disturbing."
- pages 20 - 21

The author (i.e. on page 20) and I, share the same sentiment as you (i.e. the highlighted black bold)

vooks:
I have done my bit; from the diatribe I pick specific points and I present my view.

The strongest argument in favor for cessationism is ABUSE of the Charismatic. This is also the weakest as it has no biblical precedence. Paul was not about to ban spiritual gifts where they were abused.

The strongest argument for continuitionism is, all theological arguments against it are fatally weak. It takes serious imagination to read cessationism from scriptures.

I also spotted intellectual dishonesty; denying or not disclosing HISTORICAL accounts of the gifts long after 96AD. I won't repeat the references, but you can refer to a thread I created about this. Page 13 to be precise
https://www.nairaland.com/2002518/skeptics-guide-tongues-prophecy

..."Looking back, I’m sure God was laughing at me. He knew that this experience would force me to sort out my large pile of theological baggage. Quite naturally, the moment I got home, I began reading every book on miraculous Christianity that I could find.
What I hated about all the books I found was that they were 90% experiential and 10% Biblical
I mean, the stories were great; but, I had some pretty tough questions. And it seemed like none of the books would really deal with the deeper issues that were floating around in my skeptical brain. I mean, I can understand why many people denounce tongues and spiritual gifts as un-Biblical. Good systematic teachings are hard to find. And the same goes towards the “Anti-miraculous” arguments..."
- page 5

"Once again, teaching on the kingdom of God was the central message of Jesus; and, as we can see in the above scripture, this message was inseparable from the miracles that accompanied it..."
- page 17

"The more I allow Bible truths to settle in my heart, the more silly these excuses become. To say, “ I won’t ever speak in tongues because I don’t have the gift” is like arguing, “I don’t have the gift of self-control”. Or, “I don’t have the gift of joy, thus it’s perfectly fine for me to stay depressed!” Instead, God has a supernatural allotment of grace to meet your every need. In the greater scheme of things, you may not become known as a “Prophet” like many characters in the New Testament (Acts 21:10; 13:1; Eph. 4:11); however, you will, at least, have a “common amount”..."
- page 32

"... To elaborate on this, I want to share a commentary from a highly controversial yet hugely influential figure in 20th century pentecostalism, Kenneth Hagin Senior. As his Word of Faith movement planted thousands of churches around the world throughout the 1970's and 80's, he played a significant role in shaping a good deal of modern pentecostal theology (for both better and worse). Although he is often speared by evangelicals for the foolish unorthodox statements he made from time to time, Kenneth Hagin spent a great deal of his life balancing & challenging Pentecostal beliefs with a call to scripture (books and fruitfulness which ignorant and scared dogmatists will probably never read)..."
- page 43

Wow, this guy doesnt pull any punches.

That excerpt from page 32, brings to mind, the one that cooks and the chef analogy

Anyway as for the Hagin "spent a great deal of his life balancing & challenging Pentecostal beliefs with a call to scripture" part, that is for another discuss or day

A good must read book. The author is top notch. Thanks for sharing the pdf vooks, its now archived away for future referencing and/or use
- don't let the title throw you off from reading the 51 pages book, as the author is not a skeptic

ATMC:
It's that time of the year again when a day holiday is inevitable and merry making and fun is a must-do...even on NL #smiles

The Christian Chatboxers are throwing a tea party/thanksgiving tagged 'A NIGHT UNDER THE STARS just to make the fun go round as the year's wrapping up. #let the living celebrate

FEATURES
**music
**voice notes
**memes
**inspirational videos
**good conversation
**christian humours
**good jokes
**Special guest of honour
**games and many more

YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED!

Date: 20th Dec, 2014
Venue: Nairaland
Time: 8pm(Nig time)

THE REMBRANDTS - "I'll Be There For You" (Theme Song from "Friend'')
So no one told you life was gonna be this way
Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's D.O.A.
It's like you're always stuck in second gear
When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year, but

I'll be there for you
(When the rain starts to pour)
I'll be there for you
(Like I've been there before)
I'll be there for you
('Cause you're there for me too)

You're still in bed at ten and work began at eight
You've burned your breakfast, so far things are going great
Your mother warned you there'd be days like these
But she didn't tell you when the world has brought you down to your knees and

I'll be there for you
(When the rain starts to pour)
I'll be there for you
(Like I've been there before)
I'll be there for you
('Cause you're there for me too)

No one could ever know me
No one could ever see me
Seems you're the only one who knows what it's like to be me
Someone to face the day with, make it through all the rest with
Someone I'll always laugh with
Even at my worst, I'm best with you, Yeah!

It's like you're always stuck in second gear
When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year

I'll be there for you
(When the rain starts to pour)
I'll be there for you
(Like I've been there before)
I'll be there for you
('Cause you're there for me too)

I'll be there for you
(When the rain starts to pour)
I'll be there for you
(Like I've been there before)
I'll be there for you
('Cause you're there for me too)

---

JACKSON 5 - "I'll Be There"
You and I must make a pact, we must bring salvation back
Where there is love, I'll be there

I'll reach out my hand to you, I'll have faith in all you do
Just call my name and I'll be there

[Chorus:]
And oh - I'll be there to comfort you,
Build my world of dreams around you, I'm so glad that I found you
I'll be there with a love that's strong
I'll be your strength, I'll keep holding on - yes I will, yes I will

Let me fill your heart with joy and laughter
Togetherness, well that's all I'm after
Whenever you need me, I'll be there
I'll be there to protect you, with an unselfish love I respect you
Just call my name and I'll be there

[Chorus]
If you should ever find someone new, I know he'd better be good to you
'Cos if he doesn't, I'll be there

Don't you know, baby, yeah yeah
I'll be there, I'll be there, just call my name, I'll be there

(Just look over your shoulders, honey - ooh)

I'll be there, I'll be there, whenever you need me, I'll be there

Don't you know, baby, yeah yeah

christemmbassey:
All I know is, Jesus is Lord! A very blessed sunday to all!!

Who does that look like lying down with his back on the floor moving his mouth and shaking his fist at the 1:49 - 1:52 minutes of that "Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Fake Holy Ghost Church" video?

https://gifyu.com/images/BennyJacket.gif
Yep, recognise that "throwing of anointing" antic (i.e. yep, Benny Hinn is worthy of Pastor Chris imitating him in some many ways)
and also recall jokingly asking someone dear here to be ready to be on the receiving end of the anointing reeking holy jacket in this gif too LOL
https://www.nairaland.com/1957135/midas-touch-balanced-approach-biblical/89#28345698

PS: frosbel, how bodi now? Hadn't seen your brake lights in a while.
The cheek of that Cindy Trimm woman sef SMH

vooks:
Theory aside,
Am very much interested in a cessationist's position on the role of prayer in a Christian.
Am sure like shdemidemi, it is just a psychological exercise to get a problem off your chest.

shdemidemi:
PRAYER-
I hope the OP oblige you by finding the appropriate perspective of a cessationist on the issue of prayer.
Think about these questions and answer them within yourself.

1)Is there a need for a proper prayer?

2)Is it important to know how to pray?

3)What is the purpose of praying?

4)Can we pray as we ought to outside a proper understanding of the Word of God?

5)Is prayer some form of emergency appeal?

6)Is prayer about 'I, I,I, ME, ME, ME, ME, MY, MY,MY'?

7)Is prayer about asking God to do my will or asking to be conformed to accept God's will?

8 ) Is it enough to superficially recite a memorised line of prayer?

9) Does God know all things OR is He informed by our prayer?

10) Am I created for God to use or Him for my use?

@vooks & shdemidemi, where applicable

Prayer is a psychological exercise? Indeed? What the nerve, what an oversimplification

Whatever cessationist means. It is so naive to misconstrue "end of support" for discontinuation

End of support doesnt mean not in use, stoppage in use, use discontinuation etcetera
For example, Microsoft no longer gives support on Windows XP (i.e. when users approach Microsoft with a Windows XP issue, they will politely be asked to upgrade to one of the newer operating system supported by Microsoft) but this doesnt means large number of users out there aren't using Windows XP

Microsoft may decide tomorrow to change and start supporting Windows XP but that for financial reasons etcetera is unlikely

God however, is not constrained like Microsoft, as God, in His Sovereign Power, can decide to revive or revert "end of support" statuses of gifts etcetera we deemed are discontinued or stopped. This is God's prerogative, a God privilege, as it were.

Now it will be VERY MUCH INTERESTING to know the following about others, but particularly vooks and shdemidemi:

1) Do you pray at all?
1b) If Yes to #1. Why do you pray?
If No to #1, why do you not pray then?

2) How do you pray? Where do pray? When do you pray?
(i.e. How, as in, muted prayer, audibly, praying silently/grievously in the spirit etcetera
Where, as in, in prayer closet only, in church only, only during family devotion, before eating etcetera
When, as in, during crisis, emergency, in time of need, always, occasionally, never, don't pray at all as God knows my needs, for healing etcetera)

3) How often do you pray? (i.e. what is the frequency, is it seasonal etcetera)
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #5 question)

4) What do you pray about and/or pray over? ( i.e. give examples, in addition to your response)

5) What is prayer?
Is prayer one-directional, a one-way, self-centric endeavour? (i.e. about me, mine and I)
5b) What is "house of prayer"?
(i.e. your and/or the understanding of the phrase in relation to Mark 11:17, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 6:19)

6) What is your and/or the understanding behind Luke 18:1?
(i.e. particularly the "...men ought always to pray..." part and in relation shdemidemi's #7 question)
http://biblehub.com/greek/4336.htm

7 ) What is Matthew 6:9-13 all about? Is Matthew 6:9-13 a cure-all silver bullet?
Is it a mantra, something to be repeated frequently?
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #8 question)

8.) What is the essence prayer? What is the importance of prayer?
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #1, #2, #3 and #9 question)

9) What REALLY is prayer, considering the background or having in mind the "birds of the air" and " lilies of the field" in Matthew 6:25-34?
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #9 and #10 question)

10) Without knowing, was Pharaoh praying and inadvertently prayed his doom (i.e. his death) in Exodus 10:28-29
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #10 question)

10b) Does Solomon's in 1 Kings 3:7-10 and John 15:7 give us hints about going about praying?
(i.e. particularly in relation shdemidemi's #2, #4 and #10 question)

vooks:
Bro,
It is well with Agabus.

We ca get into 'gifts' vs 'offices' distinction but we can't objectively define any of them save tongues.

What is known as pastor(s) today, is what Jesus called hirelings or hired hand(s) in John 10:12-13

Jesus mentioned that the hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep and even before then called them thieves, saying "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." (i.e. John 10:10)

- Jesus, 2000 years ago, saw today coming. He saw the reality, the emergence of thief(eves) come only to steal and kill and destroy

Before the upgrade to thieves status, Isaiah way back from the OT, has this to say (i.e. Isaiah 56:11)

"They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough.
They are shepherds who lack understanding;
they all turn to their own way, they seek their own gain."
- Isaiah 56:11 NIV

vooks:
BBG,
I think you slightly misrepresented me.
I said Agabus is the ONLY NT prophet we have in action and curiously enough, he is recorded foretelling.

One thing we can't run away from, cessassionists or continuists, is barring speaking in tongues and interpreting them,
we can't OBJECTIVELY define any other spiritual gift. Holy Spirit never left us much to analyze them. What is 'word of knowledge? Wisdom? Evangelist? Pastor?

Bro, that's what I said isnt it as in "he also agrees that Agabus was the last recorded NT bible foretelling prophet"
but it looks like, you rather be quoted or paraphrased as sayong Agabus was the ONLY NT and not as Agabus is the LAST RECORDED NT
- I hear you loud & clear bro and with you 110%

About "What is 'word of knowledge? Wisdom? Evangelist? Pastor?"

As mentioned earlier by other posters "word of knowledge" is a gift. It has no office, it essentially has to do with knowing and bringing forth the mind of God

As for "wisdom", I am assumming you mean "word of wisdom" here. If affirmative, then, it too is a gift and has no office, it essentially has to do with understanding and speaking forth Kingdom & biblical truth

"Evangelist" is a no-brainer and was going to skip it, but on second thought didn't. It too is a gift, has no office or title. It is something every Christian is expected to do when and/or if chanced (i.e. sell the Kingom, literally)

"Pastor". Pastor or pastoring, this is an interesting one as there is ONLY ONE Pastor (i.e. Shepherd) which is our Lord Jesus.
It has to do with pastures or pastoral. Remember the scripture, "Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture." (i.e. Psalms 100:3)

Shepherding, in this instance is a gift, it has no office or title. it is a privilege to shepherd on behalf of God but one doesnt take up the title or status. That office or title is reserved for our Lord Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE PASTOR
Just as cooking doesnt make one a chef or to call one a chef such is shepherd. Incidentally there is only ONE mention of PASTOR in the NT, and where it was mentioned, it was used exclusively for our Lord Jesus Christ
- you would find the pastors (i.e. pastor with a "s'' in Ephesians 4:11) translated from shepherd but as said the only Pastor used in NT was used in reference to our Lord Jesus Christ

vooks:
My broda,
I haven't watched it yet. My last movie was Pacific Rim at the beginning of 2014. I don't like movies too much. But I sure did watch Breaking Bad Series probably more religiously than behoves a believer. And let me mention I just can't bring myself to watching Christian movies. I tried two and gave up less than halfway. God is Not Dead and Son of God.....ruthlessly boring. My movies are purely for entertainment not spiritual food.

I actually was referring to the original "Planet Of The Apes" starring Charlton Heston (i.e. Moses) and not the new one

I havent gotten round watching any movies this year yet, I do however watch secular and christian movies when opportuned/chanced
- I watch either both out of entertainment and/or spiritual curiousties to know or learn something

vooks:
Great my broda, am glad we agree.
But you watch one too many sci-fi thrillers

Ah, as for sci-fi thrillers, well now that you mention it, Planet Of The Apes starring Charlton Heston (i.e. Moses) has its evocative moment though, doesnt it (e.g. it had prophecy in it too, didn't it)

WinsomeX:
^^^

I would want to know if vooks and nlmediator will prefer I do the summary to the above text first before they respond to it or they will simply respond now.

The text is about the longest but probably the most informative.

I think vooks' and nlmediator's postures or stances are quite and crystal clear (i.e. I dont think either will come out flogging a dead horse)

The former is pro-foretelling & forthtelling, but insists that foretelling has turned spurious, with fake prophets abound. he also agrees that Agabus was the last recorded NT bible foretelling prophet

The latter, on the other hand, gravitates towards forthtelling, and hints that foretelling metamorphosed into word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits

PS: Personally dont think Agabus got it wrong as well, as his prediction came to pass.
As a matter of fact, the prophecy (i.e. the foretelling) wasnt even a warning to Paul, rather it was an affirmation that something is about to happen to him, which to Paul's credit and glory to God, he took it on the chin (i.e. didnt complain that something bad is about to happen to him, instead he chided and told off those feeling sorry and weeping for him)

vooks:
My broda,
Agabus was not the LAST, he is the ONLY NT prophet we have record of his work/function. That function included foretelling.
There is nothing like diminishing. Paul would not talk of prophecies fading if Agabus gift was a minority in the church.
And if prophecy is fore & forthtelling, BOTH ought to cease not one of them.
So I don't rule out foretelling presently. But I have seen the gift abused and faked so many times.
Here is an example of one;
https://www.nairaland.com/2002872/here-prophet-claiming-malachi-4s

Note we only have one Evangelist positively identifed as such in the NT; Philip.
I would not claim that the gift was diminishing on account of the few recorded instances of evangelists. Just saying.

The idea that foretelling turned into forthtelling is a convenient way of watering down the gift of prophecy.
Here is how, it is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish forthtelling from preaching.
Apollos was mighty in scriptures already and he was not even Spirit baptized.
Also, the most objective test of prophecy is accuracy.
That is taken away. How do we test forthtelling? Scriptures, right?

I think we are both on the same page (i.e. I posted "...Agabus is probably the last Bible recorded foretelling prophet...... as in NT"

I wrote "... break-up and/or to..." and didnt suggest "...diminishing...".
- Put it this way, possibly frozen, until such a time it'll be recativated (i.e. reversed "time capsule"?)

Gift(s) abused and faked so many times, are ten a penny

True, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish forthtelling from preaching - but then, one is about spreading the word, building up with the word etecetera, and the other about proclaiming the Kingdom
True, Apollos was a skilled orator with "head knowledge" (i.e. a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures) until he was steered right by Priscilla and Aquila (i.e. shown the way of God more adequately)
True, accuracy and selfless motives will be the most objective tests
We test from/by Scriptures and/or when it happens or takes place

vooks:
BBG,
They have healing schools because we have more diseases than then. That's just me

I like your analogy. Very intuitive, but in the scriptures, we have three clear examples of people who prophesies being called prophets. Please allow me to stick to scriptures.

Any guessed definition you give for Wisdom and Knowledge is as good as mine. Holy Spirit just left us with little to nothing clearly distinguish these wonderful gifts. That's why your subjective guesses for the two can't objectively determine what gift of prophecy is or is not.

Forthtelling vs Foretelling. These are LARGELY reformation lingo especially forthtelling, probably Calvin.
I need to try and dig deeper into its roots though.
Give me an example of forthtelling in NT

Wisecrack. Didn't know vooks had a funny bone LOL

Tall order, however Agabus is probably the last Bible recorded foretelling prophet (i.e. dont quote me on that and I dont want any NL police on my back either LOL)

nlMediator has said it all, there's no point reinventing the wheel here. Foretelling prophecy has gone past it's "Use by" date, essentially forthtelling prophecy is what has replaced it

Forthtelling prophecy, as a gift, is something to desire and to be used exclusively for the benefit and building up of the body of Christ
Forthtelling prophecy, essentially is speaking the mind of God, as it is used for speaking out words of encouragement, instructions & rebuke to God's people for them to repent and/or return to God

Notice the decline of foretelling prophecy in the Bible and it's break-up and/or transition to forthtelling prophecy, word of wisdom or word of knowledge

Personally, I think love is supreme, as it encompasses all these gifts, furthermore all these gifts, prophecy, speaking in tongues etcetera will fade and pass away except love

nlMediator:
No. It's more along the lines of 2 Cor. 12:12

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

And I Cor. 4:19-20

19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

I hear you, and still, as for me and my household, we don't strut or brag, we prefer the Nike slogan

vooks:
BBG,
I fully understand schools of prophets in the OT, I don't find that in the NT.
Believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away.
There is evidence that prophets were in the church at the earliest ruling out training and tutelage in the NT

Oh, what a relief, as I thought as much you'll be aware of the schools of prophets, but didn't want to jump the gun
a bit of digression, funny isnt it we had schools of prophets in the bible but not schools of healing or healing schools

Back on track, OT Saul was anointed, and he prophesied right away (i.e. similar to what you alluded to that believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away)

I still maintain that, just because one cooks (i.e. prepares and cooks meals), it doesn't necessarily make one a chef (i.e. one doesn't put on the tag, title chef or take on the position or chef status)
- one may display the attributes of a chef but one doesn't necessarily assume the office or take on the title

Also though I didn't earlier read nlMediator's submission on the subject matter thoroughly, as I skimmed through his submission
I can now state that I subscribe and endorse 110% the submission

"And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling.
The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits.
Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?"
- © nlMediator


HELPS Word-studies
4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority'') – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).
http://biblehub.com/greek/4394.htm

Has to be said, christmas came early for this one, as nlMediator had this one in wraps