₦airaland Forum

I once alluded somewhere twice, saying:
frosbel, you are not Yooba, but you understand it, even very well or more than most Yoobas themselves,
all because you grew up & lived in Lagos and importantly you are familiar with Yoruba idioms,
if do the same with Hebrew idioms etc, the pennies will drop
https://www.nairaland.com/2055387/frosbel-now-atheist/14#29228254
https://www.nairaland.com/2042507/why-deny-virgin-birth-jesus/3#29191478

It's like asking vooks, or an European about "irumọlẹ", "iwin", "magun", "majele", "ọmọrodan", "ṣigidi" etcetera, you'll draw blanks but not with frosbel, though he aint Yooba

I included Abraham’s bosom with the meaning of Sheol, whilst making out the differences in Sheol, Hades, Hell, Gehenna and the lake of fire
but frosbel's skimpy familiarity of Hebrew concepts, idioms, fables, sayings, figures of speech, etymologies etcetera and an inability to distinguish fable (i.e. parable) from reality betrayed him

The place (i.e. Sheol with its two sides divided by a gulf) in the fable told by Jesus is real
The characters (i.e. Abraham, rich man & Lazarus) in the parable arent neccesarily real people

As we know, Sheol has two sides comprising of a good and bad side divided/separated by a gulf

Abraham with Lazarus were on the good side, in that allegory or moral story told by Jesus.
The rich man was on the bad side (i.e. on the other side of the separating gulf in Sheol)

Abraham's bosom actually signified or means Abraham's side (i.e. bosom means side)
- Abraham's bosom or side, means Abraham's side is on the good side of Sheol

The good side, Abraham's bosom or side (i.e. the side Abraham is on) is otherwise called Paradise
- the thief on the right side of the cross with Jesus, met up with Jesus in Paradise (i.e. Luke 23:43)

It is very important to catch this, and not to confuse paradise with heaven
this easily done by comparing Luke 23:43 and Luke 23:46, to see where the spirit ends up after leaving the body at death

As normal, the spirit ends up in Sheol, and the thief on the cross, on that same day, met up with Jesus at the good side of Sheol
(i.e. Abraham's bosom or side aka paradise)


As a matter of fact, the good and bad sides in Sheol, effectively are similar to departure lounges at airports

Sheol is like a departure lounges, were you wait with your boarding pass before going on to a plane for your destination.
So Sheol effectively is like a holding station; a place after death, where souls are held before heading to whichever destinations
- of course, the itinerary too, dictates where one is bound to end up at

All dead, end up in Sheol, waiting, awaiting departure...

And just like there is a divide, separating Arrivals and Departures at airports,
so similarly, is that dividing gulf that separates the good and the bad at Sheol

Side Note:
holding station
- place on lake where inactive fish spend most of their time.
Fish
- I will make you fishers of men

On the debate ongoing between vooks & esere826 or shdemidemi & frosbel concerning the Lake of fire, Jesus made another fable comparing the Lake of fire with an incinerating refuse dump located in Jerusalem
The place is called Gehenna, it is a refuse dump continually on fire burning and destroying rubbish

Jesus made a moral story or parable likening the Lake of fire with Jerusalem's Gehenna
(i.e. Gehenna is a refuse dump that incinerates, destroys and the fire rarely goes out)
The Lake of fire too burns like Gehenna but with an intensity that Chemistry students can relate to or understand when sulphur is mentioned as involved
(i.e. lake of burning sulfur in Revelation 20:10 or fiery lake of burning sulfur from Revelation 21:8 )
- elemental sulfur, by the way, is used in black gunpowder, matches, and fireworks

The everlasting burning essentially means effective and efficient incineration

As CANTICLES rightly pointed out to vooks, "judicial punishment of Everlasting fire refers to " everlastin destruction"", the "torment" actually means a thoroughly destroying

The translation of "torment" is from the greek word basanizó, it has to do with TOUCHSTONE, which is used to test the purity of metals such as silver or gold

"Torment" signifies that Satan, death and Sheol will be tested to guarantee they are utterly and completely destroyed as intended or planned in the Lake of Fire

No one is kept alive, never-ending, continually, perpetually or daily tortured.
Once destroyed by the fire, is forever destroyed.
Call it, annihilation, as it were

^^^
I came back to delete that post but alas bro you're quick on the draw and you've responded :-(

^^^
Same to you

damosky12:
My testimony of Jesus opening the eyes of a blind man through me is self evident.
Infact, his sight was granted through the ministration of the word.
I understand why you are all alarmed and some of you sceptical.
All I pray for is for you to witness one of such supernatural occurences.
Many atimes I have been graced to pray for sick folks with their healings restored.
Its not strange to me.
Rather, it has helped me to see more of the reality of the person of Jesus. HE is real no doubt!!

bro you got hold of the wrong end of the stick. No one is alarmed and/or some sceptical, except/minus Weah96
What was requested was to share the details, as in share the testimony, share the evidence(s) or proof(s) for the glory of God and for His name to be exalted
It isnt too much to ask
Our God is a miracle working God so you sarent telling us something we dont know/already know
Stop the dithering. Do a Nike - Just do it
Share the details, the whole details and nothing but the exact whole detail, leaving nothing out, so all learn from it
Thank you

frosbel:
No one asked him, he came out voluntarily to say that HE had healed a blind man
and when we asked for details he went awol.
After all his testimony can build our faith

malvisguy212:
do you believe in faith healing,?
do you not believe that he can heal a sick man?
Even if he is lying, I believe, it is not you to judge him but God.

malvisguy212:
maby you are not an atheists, no Mather what testimony you shere on nairaland,
no ONE I repeat no ONE will believe you, they will abuse you,insult you, they will say you are a drunked or a mad man.
I know my encounter I shere with some brother, they insulted me.

No one is debating faith healing, so park the "do you believe in faith healing..."
No one has argued whether or not to believe that he can heal a sick man

Even no one has mentioned if he is lying, for somebody to bring up the convenient "...it is not you to judge him but God" cop out

Local adage says "Ti ogun ẹni ba dani loju, a maa nfi gba ori"
literally meaning "when one is 100% sure of one's talisman, one smacks it on the head without fear or favour"

So why isnt he saying anything? Why the "sakara" or the gra-gra, as GooseBaba would say. Has the cat got his tongue?

Was he going to tell but developed cold feet?

♪, ♫ Let them say - © King Sunny Ade ♫ ♪, ♫

Let NO ONE will believe, Let them abuse, Let them insult, Let them say he's are a drunked or a mad man

All that was said and asked, was that he share the testimony, damn the consequences, damn the mock and/or scoffs and put the devil to shame

Share the evidence(s) or proof(s) for the glory of God and for the name of the LORD to be exalted
Drop that testimony seed, sow the seed and leave the rest for Jesus. Share the testimony.
- if not for the present audience, tell for the record and for posterity, this is the least of what was asked bro

macIB:
SMH.....@op- slave mentality. May God help your soul

^^^
Obviously OP probably didnt realise that Christians dont deliberately pick or wilfully choose pagan names to start with, they get stuck with it.
The good news is that, there is no harm done, as greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the system world
We are safe, we good to go, no one has got anything on us

GooseBaba:
Stop being emotional....

You sir are in a pitiable state of mind because you refused to submit to the will of Allah, Muhammad is the true prophet (pbuh)...
it would be absolutely absurd and foolish to doubt HIS lordship...

You better get with the program and cut jesus loose, if you want true and undiluted relationship with an abstract...
Of course, allah is great..!!

^^^
https://s23.postimg.org/yvlou6ik7/Ken_Outrage.jpg
Oh dear. Carry On...

folaked:
we all know that before we name our child, we are supose to know the meaning of the name..
My question is that as a born again christian, is it proper to name ones child local 'oriki's such as 'Ashabi, Ajani, Anike,Abebi, Adunni ?

I have noticed the names we sometimes bear, humans dosnt want to be cursed but they bear names that cursed them,
how can some one bear 'Ikujeniya (death torment someone)..Ikudoro (death afflict), Linda (beautiful serpentl, Ogunsoro (god of Iron afflict).. ogunbiyi (god of Iron gave birth to this one)...yet you will want to progress in life, buth their names are cursing them.
Nlders pls check the meaning of your names..

sister, why are you tying up heavy burdens and trying to lay them on men's shoulders. Hmm?

Apollos is mentioned several times in the New Testament. He was a contemporary of Paul, the Apostle
Remember Paul's famous words about Apollos: "I planted, Apollos watered"

The name Apollos is synonymous with the Greek and Roman god of prophecy, medicine, music, poetry, art, law, beauty, and wisdom. It later also became the god of the sun and light.

Paul has no problem or complaint over Apollos' name, neither did Apollos

Another thing are the names of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, which we all famously know and have in our worship songs are Chaldean names, and actually are related to pagan Babylonian gods

Daniel and the three friends as with others were given foreign names after captivity by the Chaldeans

- Shadrach means "command of Aku" in Akkadian, Aku being the name of the Babylonian god of the moon
- Meshach means "Who is what Aku is?", and may have been an alteration of his original Hebrew name which is Mishael
- Abednego though a corrupted or deliberate use of Abednebo, means "servant of Nebo/Nabu," or Abednergo, a variation of Abednergal, meaning "servant of the god Nergal"

Their original and theophoric Hebrew names with the meaning are:

- Hananiah means "Jah who is gracious"
- Misha'el means "Who is like God?"
- Azariah means "Jah has helped"

Daniel's given Chaldean name was Belteshazzar. It means "prince of Bel or Bel protect the king"

Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him.
So the king said, "Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you."
Belteshazzar answered,
"My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries!
- Daniel 4:19 NIV

Lastly the below snip is an excerpt of a post of a good friend's called vooks

It briefly and clearly deals with the "names/namimg" subject matter you've raised this thread for

- EXCERPT -

There is a good reason I don't buy this Cabbalistic/names mysticism; names mattered nothing in the Primitive/Early church.
Romans perhaps contains the most number of First Century believers by name.

Observe Paul sending some shout-outs.
The name Hermes sticks out because that is a believer right there with the name of a Greek god, son of Zeus!

Romans 16:3-14
King James Version (KJV)

³ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
⁴ Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
⁵ Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
⁶ Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
⁷ Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
⁸ Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
⁹ Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
¹⁰ Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
¹¹ Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
¹² Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
¹³ Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
¹⁴ Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.

Do we have a history of Gentile/Pagan-Christian converts changing their names?
I mean outside the scriptures. None.
Or was paganism and idolatry back then much less potent than Africa's?

https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents/24#26724204

- /EXCERPT -

sister you're going on an errand not sent, there is no cause for alarm.

frosbel:
You opened blind eyes? Tell us about it !

damosky12:
Pls, don't doubt it?
That you hav'nt seen it happen before does'nt mean it is impossible. I did.

No one said or wrote anything about doubt except for give the details, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
"Tell us about it !" is what was requested
Share the testimony, share the evidence(s) or proof(s) for the glory of God and for His name to be exalted
- this is the least of what was asked bro, spare the melodrama whether it is impossible or not

WinsomeX:
I can imagine. Your family will complain o.
You may have taken days to complete that submission in the last e-convention on church history.
I hope people will someday appreciate these efforts; sometimes I feel all these is a waste but some other time, I think it will find use somewhere.

^^^
It's not family alone...
but then with matters such as these, someone or somebody has to put hand to the plough...

WinsomeX:
Thank you BabaGnoni for your clarification.
I have a question though:
how long does it take you to make a post like the one above?
I mean, with all the effort at annotations... lol.

^^^
My brother, a minimum of up to an hour, at least, I think.
It's not easy, not at all, which is why I give thanks to God for His grace & succour
- to be honest, 9 times out of 10 or most times, I just want to scratch out the started post or jack in the post after starting it

GooseBaba:
Odikwa serious...!!
Guy remember this is a public forum not a pulpit..
Take it easy on the scam.

^^^
https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Jokester... trust my guy, GooseBaba, to latch on to that one

vooks:
Witchcraft is essentially a third world phenomena.
What's so peculiar in third world, melanin? No, poverty, ignorance,illiteracy are the common denominators.

Witchcraft IS NOT essentially a third world phenomena
Witchcraft essentially is a whole world wide phenomena, it is just that, in the West, apart from being a seemingly dying trade, it is subtle and has other faces or names to it

In the West, some of the names or transformations, Witchcraft, has come to be replaced with, are Wicca, clairvoyance, psychic etc etc

vooks:
Am not rooting for African spiritism or anything, just saying it is dishonest to blame the pentecostal minister.

The negro lives in a hard environment full of poverty,ignorance/minimal education and illiteracy and these are the true causes of his mindset.

Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa

Ministers competing with medical science, that is exaggeration. Fringe sects that shun medical science are not unique to Africa.

Am trying to imagine how an American who has never been to Africa will view Christians in Africa after listening to this man. This guy is exaggerating

vooks:
He was being dramatic. Fornication is not an African peculiarity nor a Pentecostal proclivity.

The exaggeration is in heaping all that is wrong in the body of Christ on the número uno enemy of Cessationists; Gifts of the Holy Spirit

There is nothing exaggerative or assumptive in Conrad's delivery

It, immediately, is easy to relate to everything Conrad touched or mentioned in his speech

Surprised to read vooks saying "Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa"

Well, there actually is a link between the fornication and witchcraft.

Within an african context, the link has to do with a naija phenomenon or practice called "bọsi abẹ abo"

Literal translation of "bọsi abẹ abo" doesnt give it's meaning a good justice, but will try taking a pot shot of translating or explaining it

"Bọsi abẹ abo" literally means "come under cover, particularly for spiritual protection etcetera"

"Bọsi abẹ abo" as earlier hinted, it is a situation where pastors with clearly opportunistic or predatory behaviors, target, single out or seek vulnerable, desperate, gullible females to exploit for sexual gratification

It can be carried out under the guise of having 7-days seclusion prayers at mountain tops (i.e. "ori oke''), or prescribing 7-times stark n@ked sponge & soap "spiritual-cleansing" bathing at streams or rivers with the pastor actively participating.

"Bọsi abẹ abo" initially was peculiar with white garment churches only but obviously the craft has been perfected, has variations and has now permeated to Charismatic/Pentecostal/WoF-influenced churches
- COZAgate scandal among others are fresh in memory

If "Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa", then one needs more understanding of the psyche of those that succumb to the vile machinations of those pastors exploiting the insecurities or fears of some who believe they are vulnerable to witchcraft or the use of spells.

There is no smoke without fire, these pastors/ministers are capitalising of people's ignorance and fear, as a result some pastors have taken advantage in the form of these unlawful sexual intercourses/escapades

The point Conrad was making about "Ministers competing with medical science" is that traditionally, witch doctors dissuade their patrons from seeking medical help, but now the observation he has noticed is that some pastors too, in all their "witch doctors mimicry" also now discourages their patrons from health care institutions or hospital admissions.
Of course, all know this is about profit-maximising, and so the reason behind this "not to take money business elsewhere" ploy.

Conrad was saying most Charismatics pastors/preachers are 21st century pīmp my crib, my ride witch-doctors
They have all the hallmarks or etchings of the African/Caribbean witch doctors (e.g. the N'anga, Sangoma, Babalawo, Obeah etcetera) like having trances, ecstatic spiritual experiences, speaking in guttural sounds, spiritual gifts, perform healing miracles, claims to divine inspiration etc etc

WinsomeX:
... WoF essentially derides medicine and makes folks feel less Christian for using medicine...

The immediate above, should be decried, as it is tantamount to hypocrisy or "Do as I say, not as I do"

A very well known local heavyweight WoF's wife apparently was for years on wrong medication for an illness misdiagnosed by physicians in South Africa (i.e. given wrong treatment in a South African hospital)
The wrong medication and misdiagnosed illness didnt come to light until when she was involved in a mild domestic accident whilst in the US.
It was the doctors at the prompted visit to the local hospital in the US for medical treatment for the domestic accident that revealed that the previous doctors in SA had misdiagnosed her illness and had prescribed wrong drugs for the popular WoF bishop's wife

Apparently the WoF bishops's wife all along had been on medication for an ill health of some kind, but instead of seeing improvements with taking the drugs the South african doctors prescribed, the opposite was the case. If not for God, the intervention and the timely warning of the US doctors, possibly a different outcome would have been the end of the pastors's wife health issue matter

vooks:
...Am not a defender of nothing, just an advocate of common sense and logic....

Well, hmm, so in relation to "WoF essentially derides medicine and makes folks feel less Christian for using medicine" and the contradiction with what transpired with the very well known local heavyweight WoF's wife, here is where vooks "...advocate of common sense and logic..." resonates almost deafeningly
I'll add to it that, wisdom is the principal thing, so get wisdom, and in all your getting, get understanding

WinsomeX:
...Why then is the phenomena predominant with us?
The answer is simple: other cultures and their ministers could separate church and culture but our own Pentecostal pastors chose to marry them. There is nothing dishonest about that...

I agree totally 110% with WinsomeX, that it is not dishonest to blame the pentecostal minister.
To whom much is given, much is required.
Much is required of the pentecostal minister, and taking off pants at the drop of a hat isnt one of them
- they have questions to answer

On the question of: "Why then is the phenomena predominant with us"
Well because of culture & tradition at this side of the world (i.e. african), africans dont necessarily confront, question, challenge authority, elders, others in position of power or who they hold in high esteem
Due to this, african churches have an enabling environments for improper behaviour(s) to grow and thrive
Also there are arent enough checks and balances to reduce or stop something that does not conform to accepted behaviors

I also, agree totally 110% with vooks, the problem is not about denomination.
There is no denomination in heaven anyway, and this is why I mainly deplore affiliation
- guess we all have a bit of all the flavours of them in us all but not enough to make us stand out as any of them

WinsomeX:
The purpose of the message was not public relations for African Christianity.
The purpose again was to tell the audience the pervasive influence of Charismatism on evagecalism.
What you think is an exaggeration is actually a plain underestimation of the facts as we see them in our shores.
It is obvious that you yourself that have turned up to be the leading defender of Charismatics on this thread know very little of the nitty gritty of the things going on within the movement

Endorsed 115%, this wasnt a PR stunt
The man has been teaching this long ago, even before he got called to share some of his knowledge, observations etc at the conference
- he opted to share this at the conference without any compulsion or coersion
The goal of Conrad was to share his observations of the similarities, mirroring and/or seemingly transformation of some african preachers to an african witch doctor
The man was spot on, he did a splendid work of it (i.e. without any exaggeration).
Kudos to Conrad and to WinsomeX for taking the pain of splattering this particular Conrad piece/work here

^^^
Are you minding "yeye-dey-smell" frosbel
- a seed is a tree, is a forest...

vooks you're making frosbel fidget, wince & grimace with all these questions you are throwing at him

vooks:
Am not rooting for African spiritism or anything, just saying it is dishonest to blame the pentecostal minister.

The negro lives in a hard environment full of poverty,ignorance/minimal education and illiteracy and these are the true causes of his mindset.

Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa

Ministers competing with medical science, that is exaggeration. Fringe sects that shun medical science are not unique to Africa.
Am trying to imagine how an American who has never been to Africa will view Christians in Africa after listening to this man.
This guy is exaggerating

vooks, as WinsomeX said, it is a cultural or traditional thing

What is culture?
- Culture is the ideas, customs and social behaviour of a particular people or society

What is tradition?
Tradition is the pratising or exercising of passed down inherited, established or customary pattern of thought action or behavior

It is because of our culture and tradition that a Chris Rock performance in Lagos, Abuja or Port Harcourt isn't feasible, like it is with the London, New York and Johannesburg comedy tour visits
The culture and tradition of the Naija comedy industry is that stand-up comics do their jokes in pidgin english
- Chris Rock wouldn't find this a possible and/or practical thing to easily or conveniently do

The following are some of what are classified as witch doctors: N'anga, Sangoma, Babalawo, Obeah etcetera

In Zimbabwe N'angas are consulted by the people for advice and healing of many illnesses

In South Africa, Sangomas perform a divination by reading the bones after being thrown

In Nigeria, Babaaláwos or Babalawos means father of secret knowledge or divination

In Jamaica and the Caribbean, Obeah is synonymous with predicting the future and manufacturing charms

The western world or an American who has never been to Africa or the other sides of those world would be familiar with
clairvoyants, fortune tellers, palm reader, psychic etcetera

The Princess Dianas, the Michael Jacksons and others of that world often visited psychics and not necessarily African witch doctors
but a parallel and similarity can be drawn between them and their modus operandi

So I don't think Conrad was exaggerating but merely was honestly sharing the transformation of pastors from an African perspective with an American audience

PS: Sorry had to rush posting this
PS: Big up to David Oyelowo playing the role of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in the movie Selma.
Oprah Winfrey and Cuba Gooding Jr. featured in it too
Loved David Oyelowo's performance in the film's trailer, love to watch the film come January 9

frosbel:
We will see about that, not that I am trying to lead you astray, you have gone stray according to the position of orthodoxy

"... gone stray according to the position of orthodoxy" Pfft.
You should be more concerned with what is acceptable to God and not the position of orthodoxy

Dont sweat the "leading astray" wishful thinking, as you cant teach grandma how to suck egg

frosbel:
Abraham knew God as one, all his conversations with God were in the singular, indeed the biblical heros of antiquity never once confused the one God of Abraham with the multiple gods of surrounding pagan nations.

Moses believed in one God ;
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! - Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus himself believed in one God ;
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one - Mark 12:29

And finally God always spoke in the singular as regarding himself ;
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand ...- Deuteronomy 32:39

To suggest that God is 3 persons or more in the light of these scripture depicts a high level of brainwashing or just plain ignorance.

SMH, a Bible 101 is never too late, so as hinted, Abraham never had the opportunity to know God otherwise except as God
- God only revealed Himself as Friend to Abraham

He, Abraham first knew God as God, and later out of the relationship (i.e. note, not out of religion) he became a friend of God
Abraham never experienced or never knew God, as, God the Father, God the Son etcetera

Deuteronomy 6:4 actually means Hear, O Israel! The OWNER is our Influencer, the OWNER is one!

As for Mark 12:29, Jesus (i.e. God the Son or the Influencer the Son) simply and plainly is reiterating Deuteronomy 6:4. There is no diggity about that

Moving on to Deuteronomy 32:39, here we have, God (i.e. the Influencer) saying:
"See now that I myself am He! There is no Influencer besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand"

During the passage of time, we begin to notice and see certain persons in the Godhead
At the appropiate times, God (i.e. the Influencer) begins to reference the persons in Him (e.g. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
Note particularly, the Holy prepending Spirit, as the significance is about the completeness, wholly or fullness of the Spirit

Equally note that the word Trinity is nowhere, never or anywhere found in the entirety of the bible
Note additions was made to the original text (i.e. 1 John 5:7) and these added words were done in order to make a doctrine on trinity


Granted unlike Abraham, we are familiar with and currently know three persons in the Godhead.

If the bible DOESNT EXPLICITLY & EMPHATICALLY have trinity or teach trinity, why is forced down throats
Why determine the limits of persons God (i.e. the Influencer) has

God is Omnipotent, all powerful

So why limit a powerful omnipotent God to three persons then.
Why delimit God to three persons? He could be more. No? Yes?

I know frosbel, I understand there is frosbel the son, there also is frosbel the father, there is frosbel the employee, there is frosbel the husband
Hear O Nairalanders. There actually is ONE frosbel, frosbel the NL poster is ONE

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FROSBEL AND GOD (i.e. the INFLUENCER) IS THAT BECAUSE GOD (i.e. the INFLUENCER) IS OMNIPOTENT, GOD (i.e. the INFLUENCER) UNLIKE FROSBEL CAN BE IN TWO PLACES AT THE SAME TIME (i.e. God (i.e. the Influencer) can simultaneously be in heaven and be on earth, at the same time)

Note I left gaps and/or am leaving gaps, sorry I do this a lot especially when it is getting tiresome, but I know you should be able to slot in the fillers yourself

frosbel:
Confusing 2 things.

Yes , I know about the lake of fire which is the means of putting an end to rebellious sinners, but let me ask you a few simple questions ;
- Do you believe there is an interim place called hell or hades where people go to and languish in torment pending the white throne judgement ? - Do you believe in eternal torment for the wicked after the second death?

No need asking any simple or tough questions, as the points I made were these:
Sheol is the holding place for good and bad souls. It had a dividing gulf separating each
Gehenna was the incinerating refuse dump in Jerusalem
Hades historically and originally is the name of a Greek god until it got turned to meaning the place or abode of the dead
It later got interchanged with hell, which is from German word root
It was bible translators who were substituing the original Hebrew word Sheol with Greek counterparts Hades/Hell

The vital point made was the Jews DO NOT HAVE THE Greek idea or concept of Hades/Hell

- Do you believe there is an interim place called hell or hades where people go to and languish in torment pending the white throne judgement?
I do not believe there is an interim place called hell or hades where people go to and languish in torment pending the white throne judgement
That is part of Greek mythology
What I believe in is, Sheol, which had two sections with a dividing gulf
Those initially in the good side of Sheol (i.e. Abraham's bosom) are now in Paradise

- Do you believe in eternal torment for the wicked after the second death?
No, no I dont believe in eternal torment for the wicked.
"Eternal torment" is a misinterpretation of the text
The fact and truth is, just like the flames of Gehenna, the incinerating refuse dump in Jerusalem effectively & thoroughly burnt the rubbish, so will death and the wicked be destroyed, after the second death, which is the Lake of Fire
- God effectively is dying all over again, killing Himself, as it was His breath that gave us life

frosbel:
Invalid opt out card.

Every believer, pastor or church claims the Spirit of truth led them into their belief system despite the utter contradiction of immense proportions on all levels, the difference in understanding and the counter condemning of each other as heretics, again while claiming to be led by the Spirit.

Your truth is exclusive to you and might not be agreeable to the majority of Christendom, so how come you still claim the Spirit of truth led you into these deep truths, which spirit is it, the one of Adeboye or kumuyi or BabaGnoni's own invention?

Motives - people have different reason for doing something or many reasons for doing things
(e.g. like deliberately misinterpreting the bible, deliberately mistranslating the bible, adding words to the bible, deliberately misusing or abusing the bible, deliberately misleading others with the bible, deliberately searching for what is not lost the bible, deliberately ignoring honest truth & facts of the bible, the list can go on)

What kind of silly question are you asking with "which spirit is it, the one of Adeboye or kumuyi or BabaGnoni's own invention?"
Dont be daft and uncouth... SMH
Have you not read John 14:26 or stumbled upon John 16:13 before?

frosbel:
Do you really think it is idle talk when I say I have done a rigorous research on this topic hence my conclusion?

In your own words, tell and/or table out how you reached your conclusion,
Explain what are your stumbling blocks.
Tell what is hard for God to do in all the "rigorous research" you did

frosbel:
^^^^

Pal, just listen to yourself, so sure, so certain that the Virgin birth is truth when it has been thoroughly researched and debunked by eminent scholars , many who were christians themselves. But, let's not leave it there, the inconsistent accounts in the books of Luke and Matthew, the contradictory genealogies, the fabrications (agreed by scholars ) and hijacked prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 all mashed into a myth which is more aligned with similar fables in contemporary pagan religions than the truth about the birth of the messiah.

In fact , one can make a better argument for the trinity which you don't believe in than the Virgin birth.

It is a myth and will remain a myth though you hyperventilate, ridicule and mock those who hold a different but more accurate and factual point of view.

Like I said, this is the only doctrine which seperates us , my heretic friend

I laugh in chinese to all the above

As you keep making me out as an accomplice of yours, let me repeat a high level submission I earlier made, as this will reveal that we really dont have anything in common, not as much as you wish we do anyway

- EXCERPT -

Just because dirty bath water was used, doesnt mean the baby is dirty

"ti ọmọde ba nse bi ọmọde, agba a ma se bi agba" literally means "There is a difference between boys and men"

When one transitions from being a child of God to being a son of God (i.e. when one comes off age) these things become shown and known to one

Yes, "church" too was in my etcetera.
"Church" isnt church, we know that much too

- Tithe;
is outdated, gone passed its "Best before date", it does neccesarily need to be given but hey if determined nothing stops anyone doing so

- Trinity;
The word "Trinity" is not in the bible, a few word additions were added to the original text (i.e. 1 John 5:7) to make a doctrine of it
There are three known persons in the Godhead.
Question: Did Abraham know God as God the Father?
So why limit a powerful omnipotent God to three persons then.
Why delimit God to three persons? He could be more. No? Yes?

- Hell;
As earlier said, there is Sheol, there is Gehenna, there is the Lake of fire but hell and hades are Greek inventions, mythology and religious imports

- Possibly others like church, rapture etc
"church" as we know today is not the church (i.e. ekklesia) of/in the bible
More details at https://www.nairaland.com/1856979/e-grace-convention-20-14/2#25506104

Rapture is another misinterpreted text/passage

Marriage is an institution not Christianity
Christianity has to do with relationships and not religion
It is because of the relationship we have with God the Father that one gets to know via the Spirit of Truth where all these things which were taught to us are wanting and found to be false

https://www.nairaland.com/2055387/frosbel-now-atheist/12#29203352

-/EXCERPT -

Your alleged "the inconsistent accounts in the books of Luke and Matthew, the contradictory genealogies, the fabrications (agreed by scholars) etc", you really think it was idle talk when I said we have checked it all. Hmm?

I once alluded somewhere saying:
frosbel, you are not Yooba, but you understand it, even very well or more than most Yoobas themselves, all because you grew up & lived in Lagos and importantly you are familiar with Yoruba idioms, if do the same with Hebrew idioms, the pennies will drop

frosbel:
My partner in HERESY, I am still waiting for you to join the bandwagon of those who deny the Virgin birth myth so that we can become one !

.

After all, that's the only doctrine that separates us, you don't agree with the orthodox position on the trinity, hell fire , tithes, rapture or definition of church, so what's left ?

You confused heretic , lmao !

You are on a long thing, if you are waiting for me, a lone ranger, me, a one-man Mopol to join you
YOYO - you're on your own bro,

dont let blood splashings stain me ooo

Remember I mentioned the below before to you:

...all this that you are swimming. Chai diaris godu ooo

Listen frosbel, "Moti wẹ okun, mo ti wẹ ọsa" literaly means "I've swam the Atlantic Ocean, I swam the Lagoon"
so besides my earlier gesticulation to you with Fela "Abami Eda" Anikulapo Kuti's - Teacher Don't Teach Me Nonsense
please don't try to teach me, your Grandma to suck eggs

"Mo ti wẹ. Mo ti ja kọnkọ" literally meaning "I don bath, I don scrub myself with shaka-shaka sponge" so there is nothing on me
- I have no excess baggage, no contrabands, my hands are in the air, holding up to the heavens

This happened many years ago, and I am still standing with my faith not waning but waxing stronger and stronger
He don tay, wey we don dey at this thing, this Father's business nau, so one knows most of the ins and outs
- been there, done all, even bought and have the t-shirts on tithes, virgin birth, trinity, rapture, staged healing etcetera

You are doing a Johnny come lately on this "virgin birth" issue
You turned up late for the "virgin birth" party, you turned up after the "virgin birth" party had finished
We have checked it, checked the "virgin birth" and found nothing wanting with the "virgin birth"

Dont make the "Virgin Birth" a stumbling block for you
The word of God is Omnipotent and not impotent
God who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist
- Please frosbel, do not render the word of God impotent

frosbel you need to be careful and need to watch your steps, watch what you are treading on or treading upon

You actually need more grace and more of Psalm 119:105
- "Your word is a lamp to guide my feet and a light for my path"

PS: you forgot my other middle names freethinker or maverick

^^^
frosbel since you dont believe in hell, you should be using the appropiate and correct wording (i.e. lake of fire) and desist from using hell
At least demonstrate your stance and be consistent with it

An2elect2:
Says the one who was never a christian.

^^^
frosbel actually started as a Christian fundamentalist often shortened as a Fundamentalist, which is not bad at all (i.e. it's safe)

The thing right now, is that frosbel is swimming in waters without strapping a life jacket on
He is doing the "Why did frosbel the chicken cross the Road" highway classic

https://s22.postimg.org/52gkey29d/chicken2.jpg

frosbel is currently on a very slippery slope, a slope with no guardings, no hand rails to hold on to, for if/when he is to slip.
With no hand railing, if/when he does slip, he will be spiralling into a dark & murky bottomless pit

The fact is, he, frosbel is leaving the safe haven of Christian fundamentalism
and is a tenny weeny bit short of fully transitioning to become a Liberal Christian
- in fact, he already is showing almost all the markings of a Liberal Christian (e.g. debunking the virgin birth etcetera)
(i.e. he hasnt completely or fully developed into a Liberal Christian yet)

Potentially, his next phase after becoming a fully fledged Liberal Christian will be Agnosticism

I agree with him (i.e. frosbel) that he will never become an ATHEIST and can never be one, not in this life or the next

I agree because even if HE, frosbel, turns later into neither believing nor disbelieving in the existence of God (i.e. he is unable to make up his mind on the existence of God) he will stay in the closet and hold on DEFIANTLY/STRONGLY to that inveterate habit of God does exist,
this, all to keep or retain the last shred of his sanity or sound mental health left

Sile12:
This is Citroen...
Seriously, am hearing about this car for the first time...

Yes ooo, that is Citroën, as kids we used to call this particular model frog eyes
Come to think of it and looking at it now, it even sits like a frog.
The fascinating thing about it, is when it's in water or a pot-hole, it lifts its rear end and rises up
- hydraulics

https://s16.postimg.org/yg0hz2rz9/Citroen_S.jpg
^{Swedish-spec Citroën DS with headlight wipers}

Our dads & mums, back in the day, used to be head over heels in love of this old school Citroën DS model
Of course, there are now modern versions of these, like the following current models:

1982 Citroën BX - once owned & drove this model
1984 Citroën Visa
1993 Citroën Xantia

C1 (2005–present) - a 4-seat, 3 or 5-door hatchback, city car with 1.3L petrol or diesel engine, developed in conjunction with Toyota as the Aygo.

C4 Picasso (2007–present) - a five-seater compact MPV
C4 Grand Picasso- (2007–present) - a seven-seater compact MPV

Berlingo (1996–present) - a panel van and leisure activity vehicle,

Berlingo Multispace is a small MPV

DS3 (2009–present)
DS4 (2010–present)
DS5 (2011–present)

https://s11.postimg.org/wmrb7t7rn/Citro_n_DS3.jpg
Citroën DS3
Manufacturer Citroën
Production 2009–present
Assembly Poissy, France (PSA Poissy Plant)
Designer Mark Lloyd

https://s28.postimg.org/3kuj39fah/Citroen.jpg https://s28.postimg.org/4zis64t61/Citroen_B.jpg

https://s28.postimg.org/aoz0qfzc9/Citroen_F.jpg https://s28.postimg.org/jhkkrv9ux/Citroen_I.jpg

How can anyone possibly omit mentioning Citroën
The Citroën DS (French, pronounced roughly ''seat row en day ess'') is a four-door, front-engine, front-wheel-drive mid-size car manufactured and marketed by the French company Citroën from 1955 to 1975

Managed to one time own & drive this one below:

https://s16.postimg.org/fbkceolnl/citroen_bx_10.jpg

GooseBaba:
Look at this dubious man...
Did I not ask you several times to show me where characters in the bible quote scriptures just as you've been doing..!?
Just as you were not free styling you were quoting verses...

You never brought in chapters or verses not in the OT.. Smh...

My statement stands valid. You attempt to answer through scriptures instead of common sense..

GooseBaba what's the matter with you
You better stay off that chilled bottle of moscato
and I dont have to be your physician before you take heed of the advice

Were you not told you'll be given two characters "IN THE BIBLE QUOTING SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE" as per your request
Were both promises returned?
Did you read chapters and verses from OT and NT of Paul and Jesus, both were CHARACTERS IN THE BIBLE QUOTING SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE, as per your request?

I doubt you really know what you are talking about when mouthing off "common sense"

andromida says, she hopes you find the Truth you seek for. I do too, I really do hope same for you GooseBaba.

As for: "You never brought in chapters or verses not in the OT.. Smh..."

this is what I wrote:
"What you dont seem to grab is that the original OT & NT texts werent in chapters and verses
- chapters and verses are NOT divinely inspired"

You're either tipsy or your system cant handle the wine
who dash fish raincoat, not everyone, is wine good with
you are under the influence and/or plastered
- stay away from that moscato bottle

GooseBaba:
Ha....which nonsense soft landing...
Where in the bible did any biblical character use the word john chapter eleven verse thirty five....!?
that was my statement that he Challenge.. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DID A CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE QUOTE SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE...!

I guess you answer it by fluke... Smh.. All these bible thumpers..

Maybe you're as thick as a 2 plank wood, as I dont know why you're asking "Where in the bible did any biblical character use the word john chapter eleven verse thirty five....!? "
for the umpteeth time, chapters and verses were not in the original Old Testament and New Testament text
so quotes were made verbatim where possible or free-style like from the scripture

You did not start with "Where in the bible did any biblical character use the word john chapter eleven verse thirty five....!?"
but rather started out with:
"NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DID A CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE QUOTE SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE"

I earlier told you, that, you're a man of many hidden talents, please dont make me add "fibbing" to the already piling up list

You were given Paul, quoting scripture, you weren't satisfied, you were given Jesus, quoting scripture too,
but you still remained headstrong, wont bulge and showed no gratitude.
- Typical self opinionated person.

Bible thumpers?
Pfft. What you've been feeding on? SMH

GooseBaba:
Story story.... The bible was not complied then, therfore they couldn't have quoted scriptures from the bible... Get it......

You are clearly emotionally attached to the bible, that's why you couldn't comprehend my awesome statement from the beginning.. Hence your initial gra gra..

Meanwhile I just finished a chilled bottle of moscato... Life is good...

vooks:
So, when do you reckon it was compiled? Last year?

They had the old testament canon long before Christ was born

Luke 11:51King James Version (KJV)

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
In this verse you decipher the Old Testament canon. Your assignment for the rest of the year is to go figure this

^^^
The red bold is meat, he prefers skimmed milk
and preferably bottled

GooseBaba:
You're still running from pillar to post with the bolded.. Smh

She has already answered my statement by validating it via common sense application of fact and comprehension.

You on the other hand wants to show off for jesus.. I understand that is the word of your god.
But, Let's call a spade a spade, when you make statements like biblical verses where divine...
Hmmmm.. I say you're emotionally attached..

You keep making gaffes after gaffes
Your first gaffe that prompted me challenging and/or asking whether you want to recant, retract, modify or edit was:
Nowhere in the bible did a character in the bible quote scriptures from the bible... - © GooseBaba

Maybe vooks would stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that remark
- by the way, FYI, vooks is a bloke and not a broad

You should have copped on that it was a typo, which I immediately corrected by typing in the missing "not" in capitals
All scripture are divinelly inspired, whereas chapters, verses and translation are NOT divinely inspired
- You wouldn't have any problems finding plenty posts of mine previously making this statement

Part of the reason, I submitted to you that you wouldn't be able to recognise someone emotionally attached to the bible, if you state, I am emotionally attached to it.

I had earlier posted on this thread dialoguing with frosbel on the inaccuracies of the trinity, hell, hades, the few word additions added to the original text (i.e. 1 John 5:7) to make a doctrine of it etcetera

Do those remarks made look like, it's from someone who is emotionally attached to the bible?
Will such person make statements that biblical verses were divine?

Only a gaffe-smith will come to such ludicrous, ridiculous and inexperienced conclusion GooseBaba
- give a brother a break, that was a typo, which I immediately spotted, facepalmed and quickly addressed

GooseBaba:
Story story.... The bible was not complied then, therfore they couldn't have quoted scriptures from the bible... Get it......

You are clearly emotionally attached to the bible, that's why you couldn't comprehend my awesome statement from the beginning..
Hence your initial gra gra..

Meanwhile I just finished a chilled bottle of moscato... Life is good...

You my dear sire, are as slippery as they come

You wouldn't be able to decipher someone "clearly emotionally attached to the bible" even if one is breathing down your neck. Pftt. SMH

Permit me to refresh your memory with some of your mischiefs:

Oh, I see, we have moved the goal post, have we.

Even stretched it from "Nowhere in the bible did a character in the bible quote scriptures from the bible"
to now "literally quote scriptures and the exact verse from the OT... quoted any of the 66 books.. FACT.. Not preaching..."

So now Isaiah that Jesus quoted from, isnt part of the 66 books Bible compilation

Also repeat or reference the alleged "initial gra gra" to compare with your "jawando"

GooseBaba:
Na woman come reset your senses... The key words were Quote and bible"

But you put emotions first be comprehension... Smh

What are you on? Drinking some cheap home brew or something which has blurred your vision?
Or maybe you should go to Specsavers over "Quote and bible"

GooseBaba:
Read and comprehend next time, don't let emotions get the best of you....

I repeat:
What you dont seem to grab is that the original OT & NT texts werent in chapters and verses
- chapters and verses were/are NOT divinely inspired as all scripture were/are

I even gave you the "free style" flavour even before you requested for one
(i.e. I just let it slide without pointing out to you that you already have some "free style" flavour)
and you have the boldness to post "... Read and comprehend next time, don't let emotions get the best of you..."

GooseBaba:
Ha..! So you get the gist..... That's all my statement stood on... And he is busy running from pillar to post..

I call it initial gra gra...

6 humble pies... No way I'm watching my calories intake..

What you dont seem to grab is that the original OT & NT texts werent in chapters and verses
- chapters and verses are NOT divinely inspired

vooks:
GooseBaba,
You wanted them to quote chapters and verses which were developed over 1000 years after Christ?

Please eat 6 humble pies

https://s17.postimg.org/z2ltbn32z/bump.jpg
vooks take it, chop knuckle,
you're a correct person

GooseBaba:
Lmao..!!! Gibiti or not at least you get the message.
Meanwhile, Have you not read the scripture..? Jesus said"
why did he not grab his copy of the bible and references the verse or quote the verse like you just did.. !?

Again.. For the umpteen time "NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DID A CHARACTER IN THE BIBLE QUOTE SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE. "
I don't care if they were free styling.

Like I said earlier on. Your initial gra gra led to this..

LOL SMH, its now gotten to "... I don't care if they were free styling..."

Luke 4:17-18
The attendant gave him the book of the prophet Isaiah.
He opened it and found the place where it read:
"The Spirit of the Lord is with me. He has anointed me to tell the Good News to the poor.
He has sent me to announce forgiveness to the prisoners of sin and the restoring of sight to the blind,
to forgive those who have been shattered by sin,

That is your wish come true GooseBaba (i.e. we read Jesus in Luke 4:17-18 taking/"grabbing" his copy and quoting Isaiah 61:1)
I hope you all along had a humble pie on stand-by or ready for you to do the honourable thing of eating it GooseBaba?