₦airaland Forum

Posted on: February 16, 2007, 12:55 PMPosted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (Q.4:82)

Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.

You dont understand the quran and you may never understand by giving the verses your own meaning.

The above is saying that even if Muhammed (saw) go astray, it will only be at his own peril and if he remain guided, it is because of the revelation he receives from Allah.

The above means that if anyone does good, it will be for his own soul. This is another verse buttressing my saying above

Quran 17v7: (And we say): "if you do good, you do good for your ownselves and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves,

Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah

Please always bring the verse out for people to see

What you dont understand is that all the prophets were sent to their people except prophet muhammed (saw).

So if moses says, "I am the first to bow as muslims", it means he is the first among his people to be a muslim likewise abraham.

There is no contradictionin the above. Adam was indeed the first Muslim, the first Muslim among mankind. Muhammad is commanded to be the first Muslim among his people.

Let me lay emphasis on the verses referring to Muhammed (saw)

Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. Quran 6:14

Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am the first Moslem (Wa 'Ana 'Awwalu Al-Muslimin). Quran 6:161-163

He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. Quran 6:163

Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). Quran 39:11-12

The above means that that Muhammad is commanded to be the first Muslim among his people.It does not contradict the other verses, Muhammad was not the first Muslim on the planet, it just means the first Muslim among his people. Read one of the verses that says:

Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. Quran 6:14

It tells Muhammad to be not of the idolaters. The idolaters were the Quraysh, they were Muhammad's people, so hence it is crystal clear when it is said for Muhammad to be the first Muslim it just basically means among his people.

Conclusively, the verses you quoted never contradicted each other. All prophets were sent to their people and as such were the first to be muslims among their people.

@mukina

Salam sister,

More power to your elbow as you enlighten us on the importance of salat.

Maa salam

@shahan,

I have told that you should open another thread where your problems would be diagnosed. I dont want things to muddle up here.

Now to the issue of crucifixion

It is a well established fact that mary magdalene went to the tomb to anoint jesus despite the fact that some verses said it was only mary while others said mary and another mary, yet another said it was mary with salome but I am not after the contradicting aspect of it.

Having known that mary went to anoint jesus. We move to another segment of question and answer.

We all know that both muslims and christians do not massage dead bodies after three days.

It is also a common knowledge that within 3 hours after death, rigor mortis sets in  - the breaking up of body cells - in three days, the corpse starts rotting from within.

The next question now is

Do Jews massage dead bodies after three days?


Dont worry, very soon, fact will be established.

Thumbs up for the discovery. I am very sure all of you must be Protestants but you have to show Jehovah witnesses, catholics, mormons etc your findings.

Take care.

funny enough, I wonder why christians attack muslims when it comes to the issue of war fought by the Holy Prophet in the Glorious Quran yet these same people never knew that they have the highest number of incest cases , rape, murder, killing of innocent children, slavery, stealing women, taking properties of war captives, racism etc. recorded in their bible.

hmmmmmmm

@shahan,

How are you doing, hope fine?

I have decided to leave the thread for trini girl but miraculously stumbled on your questions up.

In order not to deviate and for people to benefit from your questions, I will implore you to open a new thread, give it a befitting title and babs will answer your questions there.

The reason for clamouring for a new thread is that, some topics have been treated in which people never had the opportunity to read through, but by creating a new thread and given it a good topic, will surely draw the attention of people making them go through the topic.

Thanks.

@backslider,

Thanks againfor your post.

I never said that they havent answer my questions. I quoted different versions for people to see.

I was a christian for years yet you are now telling that maybe I should pray for , I dont know.

I already have jesus and its not only him that I have but other prophets too because Allah said we shouild believe in all prophets.

My dear brother, If assuming there is going to be another life(whichv is very impossible), I will come back as a muslim.

What truth are you refering to? You meant religion based on falsehood.


In addition, Islam is never a mand made religion andwill never be.


Christ - christianity

Hindu - Hinduism

Jew - Judaism

Sango - Onisango

Obatala - Olobatala


Budha - Budhaism

etc,

All the above listed are made made religion named after their leaders.

What do you want to tell me about christianity that i do not know?

All the doctrines preached in christiandom are false (it was even confirmed by a christian here)

Before you even tell me anything here, try to reconcile with jehovah witness, catholics, mormon etc.

Till Icome your way,

Stay blessed

Posted by: Pain
I want U To Give Your Life To Jesus Christ. I Can Feel That U are Thirsty For The Truth. Ive Been Following Your Posts.

Watch Out For My Book. "Realm Of Hope"

@PAIN,

Give my life to him as what sir?

Please dont come and give me that here, afterall you claimed to have been following my posts.

What truth are you referring to? You meant the darkness (christianity) I was in for years?

You should have been reading all the verses I have been quoting from your bible.

Also your coming book will be highly welcomed.

Note: Dont just post any book here without biblical backing. I will be needing evidence from the bible.

Stay blessed

@backslider,

Once thanks for your post. Let me first give you the verse on abrogation

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Now since you said there is no relationship in your aforementioned verses, I will like to ask a very honest question

To you, what do the verses aimed at? i.e, what are the two verses referring to?

@pain,

Is that the picture of Satan?

I thought satan is black based on all the films I have seen and watched being shown to christians.

@shahan,

When the time comes, we will compare the right of muslim women to that of christian women

@mrpataki,


Quote from: mrpataki on Yesterday at 08:18:56 PM
Now the same Leviticus 18:19 -Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her unclothedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

Blabs787, which version of the bible did you bring out that scripture.

It is very glaring that you knew nothing

Posted by: mrpataki  
Quote
Pray tell me blabs787, what is the difference between praising God and Worshipping God?

Yet, you still showed your ignorance

What you do in christianity is singing and singing is something that has to do with musical instrument and you cant worship with that. Dont worry, go to the end of my post, you will see the difference between praising God and worshipping God.

Posted by: mrpataki  
Quote

Yes I have seen Muslims not only in their meetings but as well on TV? Do you have a TV at home?

What is happening to you? This is not the mrpataki I used to know. Hope you are not eating too much of [b]'ori eja' - Head of fish.

I dont have a TV but Television Set.

Try to differentiate between Meetings (maybe Adkhar) and prayers.

Another ignorant approach again. When muslims pray in any of their five times daily prayer, do you see them singing and dancing ([i[b]]kulu bo idi[/b][/i]), (patewo re, ki oro re le di ayo[/i]) etc.

Am  not disputing that muslims use musical instruments during some religious activities, but when it comes to prayer, you will never see something like that ijo esin,[i], never!

Pa atewo re ki oro re le di ayo
I will praise him,
Jesus is the sweetest name I know
Idi ope mi re
etc, [i][/i]

Hope your Tv is not the one used by Lord Luggard, Mary Slessor etc, or maybe showing pictures in an upside-down position.


Quote
Never mind, just quote a verse from the above where 'singing' is used for worshipping God.

[b]Ps 9:11  Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Ps 13:6 I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

Ps 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.

Ps 21:13 Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: so will we sing and praise thy power.

Ps 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

Ps 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Ps 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.

Ps 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.Ps 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Ps 47:6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.[/b]

Just to mention a few.

Muslims, abeg I tire for this guy. Simple English, he cant comprehend.

In all of the quoted verses, there is no where I can see the word 'worship'. Emphasis is on singing like you normally do when you are dancing juju, hip hop, makossa etc.

Church is just like a Party House where you go, listen to music or join them in singing, and dance your heart out.

The above verses are talking about singing and praising God.


Quote
Give me the verse from the Psalm that says you should use singing and dancing to worship God.

[b]Posted by: mrpataki  
Quote
Ps 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Ps 150:4  Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Do you still want more? Digest that for now.

My friend, still no place where any of the above verses says you should use singing coupled with guitar, talking drum, etc to worship God.

Now read the below and compare with your above singing and dancing. You will that there is a big difference between singing, praising and worshipping.

Mathew 4v10: Then jesus said to him, 'begone satan; fpr it is written, you shall worship the Lord, your God and only Him shall you serve,

Revelation 15v4: Who shall not fear and glorify thy Name, O Lord, for thou art Holy .All nations shall come and worship thee for thy judgements have been revealed.

Exodus 34v8: And moses made haste to bow his head towards the earth and worshipped

(just like the muslims)

1st Samuel  1v19: They rose early in the morning and worshipped before the Lord.

(just like muslims do)

1st Samuel 1v 28: , and they worshipped the Lord there.

Accept Islam today and be saved.

@Shahan,

Before posting my comment, I will want you to post your listed problems in another thread so that:

1. Babs will be able to diagnosis them for you.

2. there will be no diversion from the main topic.

Note: Your questions will lead us to the origin and authors of the bible, very interesting!

I will hold on till I hear from you based on my earlier rejoinder before posting my comment to the answers supplied by you to my second set of questions.

"Mo wi ire abi mi o wi re"[/b] - [b]"Have I spoken well?"[i][/i]

@babyosis,

Never mind, we will see as we proceed.

@Shahan,

Thanks again for the response. I will to bring some verses into your limelight from your last post to show that he didnt die on the cross before proceeding to the next evidence.

With reference to the first post,

Can you please explain the vereses below?

1. You showed some verses saying that Judas betrayed jesus with a kiss, abi?

Matt. 26:15 ~~ 'And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.'
Mark 14:44 ~~ 'And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.'
Luke 22:48 ~~ 'But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?'

Now read this too showing that judas never betrayed jesus with a kiss, rather jesus showed himself

John 18v4-8: jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, “whom ye seek”?. They answered him Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, “I am he” and Judas which betrayed him stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, “ I am he”, they went backward and fell to the ground. They asked he them again, “ whom seek ye”? and they said, “jesus of Nazareth”. Jesus answered, “ I have told you that I am he, if ye therefore seek me, let these go their way

Your post regarding the above
The disciples were there and saw Judas kiss Jesus as a sign of betrayal. Your linear thinking prevents you from seeing that.

Madam, can you bring out the verse from John 18v4-8 that says Judas kissed jesus and we see whose linear thinking has really prevented from seeing?

What do you have to say to the above? Do we agree that Judas betrayed jesus with a kiss or that Jesus showed himself?

2.

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:32:54 PM
Here you also said he hanged himself. Please read
Act 1v18: Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness) and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.

First, that he hanged himself does not contradict the fact that he fell headlong in his suicide attempt and burst open in the midst of his bowels.

Again, your linear thinking at work. This is what happened (Matt.27:5- ~~ "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day."

Lets see whose linear thinking is at work
So how do a person that hanged himself fell headlong?

Headlong means falling with head first.

Do they hang someone upside down?

3.
In Jewish custom, the buying of a field with "the price of blood" is for burying strangers. When the field is purchased, the name of the stranger is put on the receipt - and that was why in typical Jewish expression it is recorded in Acts 1:18 >> "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity," showing that the iniquity of betrayal was his own handiwork.

Did you in anyway read the verse very well? This is it again madam,
Act 1v18: (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness) and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.

Did you see the word "Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness'.? Meaning that Judas bought the field with his body.

I will comment on your response in my next post.

Stay blessed.

@shahan

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 12:49:19 PM
haba, ignored ke, no not yet, we are still on the issue of crucifixion.
Which of your questions have I evaded?

I haven't even started offering your questions of my own as yet - just the easy ones borrowed from 4get_me. And when I find you mature enough for an educated and fabrication-free debate, then you'll find me giving you any notice. Please don't come back with "ITs NEVER my turn" or any of those weathered clichés.

Regards.

Escapist

Now to your response to my first questions. Read below for my little explanations.

@shahan,

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
Question 1
Since Jesus came to die on the cross, it means that he is very aware of the contract. If so, why was Judas named a traitor for the fact it has been arranged that he would die?

The message I have been trying to pass across to you is that, “Do you have to hold Judas responsible”?

Judas was called a traitor for reasons given in the Bible itself - for a price, he betrayed the Lord Jesus with a kiss in such malicious pretence as if he had done nothing wrong:

Matt. 26:15 ~~ 'And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.'
Mark 14:44 ~~ 'And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.'
Luke 22:48 ~~ 'But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?'

Hey, So judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Please read the below verse

John 18v4-8: jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, “whom ye seek”?. They answered him Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, “I am he” and Judas which betrayed him stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, “ I am he”, they went backward and fell to the ground. They asked he them again, “ whom seek ye”? and they said, “jesus of Nazareth”. Jesus answered, “ I have told you that I am he, if ye therefore seek me, let these go their way

You said Judas kissed Jesus but John said Jesus showed himself. Which do we take (showing that none was an eye witness)

This event was long prophesied and was fulfilled to the letter:

Matt. 27:5 ~~ 'And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.'

Here you also said he hanged himself. Please read
Act 1v18: Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness) and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.

Also note 'And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple” contradicting “Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness”

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
Question 3

a. why did they all go to Gethsemane? To pray?
b. Could they not have prayed in the upper room?
c. Why did he go with his disciples to pray when only him can do the prayer afterall they didn’t pray with him but watched.


Wrong again - neither the Bible nor the Qur'an hints such, and it is only your own devising. Jesus and His disciples went to Gethsemane to pray because that was where they often resorted - "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples" (John 18:2). It was their favorite place, and they went there to pray on that occasion.[/b]

Very good. But note that Jesus prayed alone i.e., the disciples never prayed with him. The prayer could have been offered in the upper room, hope u know that.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
Question 4
Why did he take Peter, john and james further into the garden?

You asked a question, then you deny your own question in the same breath. Clap for yourself.

Nothing was denied madam
This my response.
He didnt take them further into the Garden to pray (he prayed alone) but in order to make his inner line of defence.Little wonder he told them to "wait and watch".
The manner in which Jesus deployed his disciples - Eight at the gate and three making the inner line of defence shows that Jesus was not prepared to be made a scapegoat for his followers. He had prepared to fight to the bitter end.


Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
but in order to make his inner line of defence.Little wonder he told them to "wait and watch".

He did not tell them to "wait and watch" - again your fabrication. He simply told them to "watch and pray" (Matt. 26:41).

“watch and pray”.
Watch and at the same time be praying? Will there be concentration? Mind you, the disciples never prayed, jesus alone prayed. If for prayer sake, he need not go with the three further into the garden, leaving others behind. Does that mean the three were prayer warriors? Ponder on those pls.



Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
Question 5
a. Why did he pray to the extent of sweating blood.
b. what was the prayer for since he came to die.

And how have you answered your own question? What about the "sweating blood"? Again, you can read John 17 to see the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane. Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an teaches your fabrication about Jesus praying for "the jews because of their sense of logic!"

Thank you ma. Could you please help with an answer.
What did he pray for?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 09:33:16 AM
Question 6
a. What did the angel of God came to strengthen him for?
b. Did he come to increase his doubts or fear?
c. To multiply his anxieties
d. Did the angel come to tell him that God had forsaken him in his disbelief?

Already answered - see above. Nowhere did the Bible nor the Qur'an teach your fabrication in order to prove God "would never leave him to be killed". You're simply putting words in the Angel's mouth in order to buttress your desperate eristic claims.

The angel came to strengthen him about the crucifixion. hmmmmmmmm

Posted by: mrpataki
Insert Quote
@ mukina,
Perhaps let me ask you this question.

Lets say am an Alfa, and I am going to conduct the afternoon prayer session, and two minutes before getting to the prayer ground, I get pressed to urinate, and by urgency of my pee, I split part of it on my body, or perhaps I release out my gas from my bowels, Can I still go ahead and lead the congreagation to prayer, since it is evident I am now unclean?

Why are asking stupid question this man?

Will you prefer prayer made in an unclean state to that of clean state. Try to be reasonable now.

If I relate your inputs to how your women are treated just because of their menses.

Quran 2v222: They ask you concerning menstruation, say "that it is (harmful 5thing for a husband to have sexual intercourse with his wife while she is havng her menses). Therefore keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they are purified. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you. Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves.

Leviticus 18v19: Do not have intercourse with a woman during her monthly period (menstruation) because she is ritually unclean.

So dont come here again with your stupid questions.

Please give me the verse that says you should use singing and dancing as means of worshipping God.

@mukina,

Thanks for the response. Like I said, continue with the thread and leave this my ignorant friend and myself alone. I will fix him up.

@pataki,

You have just shown that you are a real ignoramus.

You are equating praising to worshipping.

You decided to cage yourself.

I wanted to be nailing you gradually but you yourself voluntarily kicked yourself in the ass.

So you dont know that there is a difference between "praising" and "worshipping"

It will be better for you to keep your mouth shut when you dont have anything reasonable to offer rather than the continuous nailing.

Have you seen muslims using musical instrument when worshipping God?

Also you need to ask yourself what you meant by muslim using musical instrument. Are you referring to when we are supplicating? Do you see us using any?

Remember how King David danced before God, worshipping Him with the whole of Hos might not in words alone but with his deeds.
If you need a comprehensive study on how to worship God, I will refer you to the book of Psalms.

Never mind, just quote a verse from the above where 'singing' is used for worshipping God.

What you will see in the verse you are trying to give me is 'praising' and not worshipping.

You should know the difference between the two now.

Your dancing, singing is being counted as 'praising' but if you want to worship God, you have to maintain 100% silence and not dancing high life, juju, fuji, hip hop afro whatever under the pretext of worshipping God.

Give me the verse from the Psalm that says you should use singing and dancing to worship God.

ti o ba le jo, o ti je olorun ni gbese ti o ba le jo.
I will praise you o my saviour, I will praise you for ever more.


Funny being.

Posted by: mrpataki
Insert Quote
I will leave Shahan to address some of the issues you have raised here. As I wont want to be seen as attacking your posts here

You must no go, you have to reply my last post before going.



@mukina,

Pls get back to the topic and ignore mischief makers

@pataki,

P[b]osted on: Today at 01:00:02 PMPosted by: mrpataki  
Insert Quote
@ blabs7887,
We the Christians worship God in truth and in spirit.

John 4:24   -God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. [/b]

Organogram man, it seemed you didnt understand my question.

Am asking you based on the fact that muslims worship Allah through Solah, which of the act in christianity do we hold as being the mode of worship (ie the singing and praising stuff).

Or put in another way, you tell me how you worship him in spirit giving me one of your church doings that one can hold on to.

I also asked you to provide biblical verse supporting your mode of worship.

We all know that God is spirit so dont give me that one you. Se you hear me my very good friend.

madam,

Hold on for babs. He is sorting out your response and will soon be back.

haba, ignored ke, no not yet, we are still on the issue of crucifixion.

Which of your questions have I evaded?

@mrpataki,

Please stop being mischievous.

Here is your question
Quote
My question is, would she be allowed to spread the word effectively in your congregational meetings as you are encouraging her to do here on the internet?

And my response

This is just one of the conceptions I mentioned. This pataki never knew the difference between posting a thread and listening to voice. Na wa o.

I answered you the way question was thrown. You know very well that its not allowed in congregational prayers.

So I will leave you with a verse from your bible

1st Corinthians 14v34: The women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Hope you have seen the above. Please dont forget my questions too.

@shahan,

[b]@babs787,

Now your turn to answer some questions which I'll borrow from 4get_me for now:

For those accusing the Bible of having been corrupted (according to the Qur'an), I have a few questions:

#1. what did the original Bible say in John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 before Muhammad was born?

#2. who exactly "corrupted" the verses in John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 according to Muhammad's accusation?

#3. In what year exactly were John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 'corrupted' as accused by Muhammad against the Bible?

#4. What "Psalms" did Muhammad refer to when he stated in the Qur'an that Allah gave the Psalms unto David [Sura 4:163 - ". . and to David We gave the Psalms."]? What exactly did the Psalms say, and how many chapters were they?

#5. Why did Muhammad not mention Isaiah in the Qur'an as one of the prophets of God, even though the Jews recognized him as such, and Jesus quoted from the same Isaiah?

If Muslims have investigated Muhammad's accusations and found them untenable, would they be willing to admit that Muhammad was not telling the truth?[/b]

Madam, dont rush pls. Its never my turn. We have not concluded the issue at hand. You are telling me that he was and I am saying he wasnt. You can bet it with me that your listed worries will be attended to one after the other but that will be when the topic at hand is laid to rest.

Posted by: Backslider  
Insert Quote
What is the punishment for adultery?

I am very sorry for my late response. The last time I check the thread was when you replied babyosis' post, so seeing your name appearing as the last post, I thought its still the same message.

Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2],

"confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women)

[4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16].

24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4.

And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?

The above is not contradiction and will never be. Its known as Naasuukh and Mansuukh.

Naasuukh and Mansuukh is a situation where a revelation has been abrogated by another.

Though the Holy Prophet said nothing on this because he knew that all verse are valid when necessary.

Let me stop there first and explain to you about Mecca and Medinah Surahs, then I continue again.

Revelation was made to the Holy Prophet (saw) both in Mecca and Medinah respectively.

The holy Prophet did not have much time to go into the details as separating the two  because

time did not permit him
It was only nine days the prophet (saw) used on earth after the last revelation was made.

Like i was saying, the prophet never said on the abrogated verses because there was no time.

But the people who inherited the Quran tried indicating the verses that people may say contradict each other and made explanations on them that they were rather abrogations.

The verses believed to be abrogated verses are about 21 but only five of them were agreed upon by the scholars because the remaining 16 were later understood not to be among the abrogated verses.

Quran 4v15 has been abrogated by Quran 24v2.

let me give you another example to buttress my saying

Quran 2v240 has been abrogated by Quran 4v12.

With the above examples, it is being agreed that they are abrogated verses. Abrogated verses in the Quran are still strong, only time to use them are different.Abrogated verses do not mean Contradiction just as in the case of the bible.

Thats the best way  I can explain

@backslider,

Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
Dear Brother,

Thank you very much you have said it The same mind you use to Judge your Quran you cannot use it to Judge the bible. The bible is tried seven times and it is pure.

No, dont twist what I said. I told you that the same measure should be used for the two books.

Now if you are saying that the bible has been tried 7 times, let me ask you these
1. If the bible is a complete book, why are some sects having 73 books and another 66.

2. Why are verses like mathew 17v21, luke 9v56, john 5v4 etc missing in some versions?

3. Lastly, what happened to Paul's first letter to the corinthians? Is the 1st Corinthians we are having now, the real 1st Letter to the Corinthians?

[b]Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
Your book of lies is incomplete and please I am not trying to offend you but there is falsehood in the Quran.

You are not offending me.Let me have one of the falsehood pls and I will show you lots of falsehood in the bible sir.

You when telling me that The bible is false the poster quoted some professor and I am quoting Aisha tell me aisha is wrong?

Lets put the issue of quoting from people aside. Give me a verse that you think is not present in another version. Simple as that

@backslider,

Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
@babs

Did you not read the post It is in the tommy or Feaces of some animal. I don't have the original if you have may you can borrow me.

Lets forget the issue Faeces of animal.

[b]Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
@babs

Any way my brother read below what people close are saying not me.

Sir, likeI said in my above post, you cant quote the sayings of people here and expect me to accept just like that. Let me have the proof and I accept wholeheartedly.

In my earlier post. I told you what to be done to verify the completion of the book (Holy Quran).

If you are claiming that its incomplete based on your post above, bring out a verse which you find in any of the authors and not present in another.

It is a well known fact that the bible is an incomplete book. So lets apply the same standard and if you can bring me a verse like that I will accept that Holy Quran is incomplete.

[b]Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
@babs

If the QURAN WAS SO CORRECT WHY DO WE HAVE THE HADITH?
Now about

The Holy Quran is the word of Allah sent through his Angel Jibril to Prophet Muhammed (saw).

The Hadith comprises the sayings of the Holy Prophet . Note that the Hadith is just like the Gospel. The bible can never be said to be word of God because you find the word of God, word of Prophets and word of ordinary men whereas in the Holy Quran, you can never see such things. The Hadith is the sayings of the Prophet.

While the Sunnah is the doing of the Holy Prophet.

Thank you.

@mrpataki,

Posted by: mrpataki
Insert Quote
@ babs787,
Answer my question and stop yarning dust.

Havent I answered you? This is just one of the misconceptions I mentioned earlier.

This is my response again
This is just one of the conceptions I mentioned. This pataki never knew the difference between posting a thread and listening to voice. Na wa o.

So in a nutshell, go and find out before posting unreasonable questions.

Now pataki, since I have answered you, let me ask you this question

Christians are very familair with muslims mode of worship, Please I want to know how christians worship God.

And secondly how Christians worship God as written in the Bible.

Thank you my very good friend.

@Babyosis & Shahan


These are the other questions thrown at babyosis when she demanded for evidence. From here, I move on and will make each question a heading for my coming post

1. why did mary go to the tomb?
2. why was the stone removed and why were the winding sheets found unwind?
3. why did mary think jesus as a gardener? do resurrected bodies look like gardeners?
4. what does mary wanted to do with a decomposing body?
5. can she alone carry a dead body?

Cheers

Posted by: kaydee  
Insert Quote
This is a very long story.
THE SHORT FACT IS:
JESUS DIED FOR YOU AND I AND NO ONE GOES TO THE FATHER (GOD) EXCEPT THROUGH HIM.

Kaydee, let me have the evidence showing that he died for you and that its only through himn one can gain salvation.

@babyosis & shahan,

I thought babaearly has told you to shut his mouth.Go on and do that.

Babyosis, why pretending? The questions are just the starting ones to buttress my claim. Like I said, you dont have the answers and will never have.

Also, the questions will never make sense to both of you because you never expected the questions. Throughout your years of being brainwashed or programmed, you have never come across these type of questions let alone someone asking you to defend the crucifixion stuff.

You babyosis asked me to give you reasons and I gave you part of the reasons, yet you still come here and be saying stupid things that they are not intelligent questions.

Are you not the same person that has been telling me to give you the evidence? When I listed them out for you, you resorted to your normal slogan.

Now babyosis,
What does Christ praying fervently and the people he took with have to do with not being crucified.

I said it. Both of you have never been challenged let alone asking you questions. Read her post above, she was asking me what praying fervently got to do with being crucified.

If you dont know it has lot to do. Let me break it down for you.

Jesus never had any heavenly contract with God let alone being killed on the cross.

Let me be brief here in order to answer the questions you have not been able to.

Jesus wanted his disciples to watch (in case of jewish intruder) and went to pray alone. Jesus prayed to God to save him from the Jews and it was learnt that God heard his prayer, sending Angel to strenghten him that God would never leave him. The above shows that HE DIDNT DIE ON THE CROSS.

Since both of you tactically avoided my questions just because you have no answers, I will answer the questions for you

Question 1
Since Jesus came to die on the cross, it means that he is very aware of the contract. If so, why was Judas named a traitor for the fact it has been arranged that he would die?

Judas was named a traitor because jesus was unaware of heavenly contract, i.e. he never planned to come and die for you.

Question 2
Why did he charge them to buy sword. Did I hear someone saying that one of his disciples that raised sword against the Romans was rebuked? Well, am still coming to that but the question now, why did he charge them to buy sword?

Jesus under-rated the Jew. After learning that Judas had betrayed him and that they would come for him, he charged them to buy sword for defence (Jihad)

Question 3

a. why did they all go to Gethsemane? To pray?
b. Could they not have prayed in the upper room?
c. Why did he go with his disciples to pray when only him can do the prayer afterall they didn’t pray with him but watched.

They went to the Garden so that they might be in a better position to defend themselves.

Question 4
Why did he take Peter, john and james further into the garden?

He didnt take them further into the Garden to pray (he prayed alone) but in order to make his inner line of defence.Little wonder he told them to "wait and watch".
The manner in which Jesus deployed his disciples - Eight at the gate and three making the inner line of defence shows that Jesus was not prepared to be made a scapegoat for his followers. He had prepared to fight to the bitter end.

Question 5

a. Why did he pray to the extent of sweating blood.
b. what was the prayer for since he came to die.

He prayed to God in order to be saved. Jesus prayed for the jews because of their sense of logic that if they succeeded in their attempt on his life, it would be a sure proof for them and for their children till eternity that Jesus was a liar. Their rejection of him would leave the door open for every would be imposter to the claim of being the Promised Messiah of the Jews.

Question 6

a. What did the angel of God came to strengthen him for?
b. Did he come to increase his doubts or fear?
c. To multiply his anxieties
d. Did the angel come to tell him that God had forsaken him in his disbelief?

The angel of God came to assure him that God was with him and that He would never leave him to be killed.

I even told you that if you do not provide answers to the questions listed above, I will still move ahead.

@bindex,

Did you cull those aforementioned from the bible?

make sure your convert all their women and children to islam after they have been killed .the angel gabriel will be in front of you to guide and protect you so that the infidels do not defeat you.

I pity your soul for blasphemy against the Angel of Allah, angel Gabriel.

May Allah forgive you for your utterance

@trini girl,

Are you that blind or is there any dirt in your eyes?

In fact I don't see how you can describe it as stupid when you yourself conceded and quoted the qu'ran as giving support to the Torah.

You said I conceded. You never read my post. Ok check these verses blindfolded trinity

Quran 5v68: Say (O Muhammed saw), " O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! YOU HAVE NOTHING (AS REGARDS GUIDANCE) till you act according to the Torah, the Gospel, AND WHAT HAS (NOW) BEEN SENT DOWN TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD (THE QURAN). Verily, that which has been sent down to you (O Muhammed saw) from your Lord increases in most of them (their) obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the PEOPLE WHO DISBELIEF.

Why not remove the covering from your eyes so that you will be able to read very well.

Now read the below verses

Quran 5v13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

The Christians altered their books. Read the second verse too

Quran 5v41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

Understood
[

@backslider,

I disagree with you in totality.

Lets leave hearsay and apply a simple logic

You claimed that some parts are lost. Good.Now, let me have the original Manuscript where we have the complete chapters and verses and do compare with the present one we are having.

Better still, If you do no understand what am trying to pass across to you, I will break it down.

Muslims have been saying that there are omitted verses, additional books and some books missing in the bible which clearly shows that the bible is incomplete.

Eg. we have mark 11v26, act of apostles, mathew 17v21 etc not present in some bibles.

So lets apply the above to the Quran too.

So let me now tell you about of the Holy Quran

The Holy Quran

The Holy Quran is a book revealed from Allah (swt) to his messenger, Prophet Muhammed (saw) when he was forty years of age. First verses were revealed on the 610 A.D. equivalent to 27th Ramadhan.

First five verses revealed on the 27th of Ramadhan were the part of Suratul-alaq

Quran 96v1-5:
1. Read in the name of your Lord, who created
2. He created man from a clot
3. Read and your Lord is Most Honourable
4. Who taught (to write) with pen.
5. Taught man wha he knew not

Quran after the death of the Prophet (saw)

Quran was not in a book form in the lifetime of Prophet Muhammed (saw) because:

1. All the Sahaba (Companions) memorised it and they thought that every muslim must memorise it like them.

2. There are 9 days interval between the last verse of the Quran and the death of the receiver (Prophet Muhammed saw)

3. The scrolls of the Quran were not in the same place because the chapters were not revealed at the same time.

Quran in the time of Abubakr

After the death of the Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr became the successor and became the leader and commander of the muslim world. He reigned for 2 years (632 A.D-634 A.D). During his time, Umar advised him to make the Quran in a book form because a large number of men who knew the Quran by heart had fallen as matyrs in the Battle of Yamama. This was fought against Musaylma al-Kazzab, who had denounced Islam and claimed to be a prophet after Prophet Muhammed (saw).

So, Umar went to see Abu Bakr and they both agreed and called Zayd bin Thabit who used to write the revelations down for the prophet (saw).

Zayd first disagreed but later agreed later and Abu Bakr called all memorizers (Huffaz) of the Quran to come and read by heart and at the same time, he sent for the materials (skin, slabs of stones etc) on which Qurian verses were written.

For those who had memorised it, they tried to write the Quran down by heart, out of fifteen of them, Abdullahi bin Mash'ud's own was ost perfect, others had forgotten parts of the Quran.

A panel was set up with Abu Bakr himself as the chairman and the writers were

1. Zayd bin Thabit (Leader)
2. Abdul-Rahamn bin Harith
3. Saad bin Al-as
4. Abdullahi bin Zubayr

When the finished, they called the best reader and memorizer of the Quran, Abdullahi Mash'uud to come and recite the Quran while the remaining writers and memorizers looked through the one they wrote. Suprisingly, nothing was different.

This is how the Quran was collected in one place without any mistake.

The exit of the Holy Quran to other lands

In the lifetime of Abu Bakr, the Quran was collected and kept with Hafsah. Whoever feel like benefitting from the reading of the Quran from the compiled copy must come to the Sahaba in Mecca, but in the time of another Caliph of Islam, things changed for the better.

Quran in the time of Uthman (R.A.T)

Uthman was the successor to Umar.He became the commander after the death of Umar who reigned after Abu Bakr. His tenure of office was 644 A.D-656 A.D.

During his time, differences in reading the Quran became obvious, because ISLAM had spread to many states.

Then Uthman called for the copy of the original Quran collected at the time of Abu Bakr and ordered
1. Zayd bin Thabit
2. Abdullahi bin Zubair
3. Sa'ad bin Al'aas
4. Abdul Rahman bin Harith bin Hishaam
to re-write the manuscripts of the Quran in a very neat, decent and readable way. The writers did their work perfectly and successfully without a single error.

They wrote five copies of the Quran and Uthman sent a copy each to Islamic States namely:

One copy to Damascus.
One to Kuffa
One to Basra
One to Medina (Yathrib)
last copy remained in Mecca including the former one.

Journey of the Quran to the press

Quran was forst printed in Block print form, that was around the tenth century (1,000A.D). The system was to make the wooden blocks, then stamp it on materials like paper.

In 1143 A.D, the holy Quran was first translated from Arabic to Latin by the instructions of a man called PETER THE VENERABLE in Europe and that was the first translation of the Quran from Arabic to any other language.

With that translation, bothj muslims and non-muslims especially those Latin speakers startd to know the words of the Quran, they (christians among them) even knew the facts about the many doubts that they discovered from the bible and they tried using the Quran in correcting them.

System of printing press with movable type started in many parts of the world and that was around sixteenth century (1,600 A.D)

In Hamburg (Germany), the Quran was printed in 1694. The Quran was printed by Christians but carefully monitored by the muslims.

Malay Uthman edition of the Quran was published in Petersburg (Russia) in 1787 A.D.

1828 A.D., Kazan printed the Quran
1833 A.D, Persia also printed the Quran
1877 A.D., Istanbul joined them in the printing of the Quran
1858 A.D, The so-called "Fluegel edition" of the Quran was printed by the German Orientalist
1925 A.D, The so-called 'Egyptian edition' of the Quran was printed in Cairo with the financial aid of King Fa'ad of Saudi Arabia and it was distributed free of charge.

Evidence that the Quran is a complete book of Allah

Quran 41v42: No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it, it is sent down by one full of wisdom, worthy of all praise

Quran 15v9: We have sent dwn the message without doubt, and we will surely guard it (from corruption)

Also read Quran 10v37-38, 2v23-24

More evidence that all the parts of the Quran were collected completely

1. The written down was during the time of the Prophet
2. The collection was in the presence of Hiffaz.
3.All parts of the revelation are available in written form.
4. The material on which the revelation was written were loose writing materials, making it easy to arrange them in good order.
5. Quran was revealed in simple and pure Arabic Language and it is very understandable to all companions of the prophet (saw).
6.Allah (swt) himself sent Jubril (Angel Gabriel) to go through all the revelation with prophet Muhammed (saw) in Ramadhan. This was done twice in the year the prophet died.
7. The Quran was well guarded by the Sahaba ,they did not betray what they loved.

Based on the above, if you still say, its not complete, I will advise you give me a verse in a quran that is not present in another just like the bible.

Nothing as simple as that.

@trini girl,

I knew that you are not only after the discussion but interested in name calling too. Like i keep saying, you are not the first and will not be the last.You cannot post stupid things here and expect babs to accept them hook, line and sinker.

What are you blabbing about again? First of all the passage on the qu'ran supporting the bible was meant to show that the author of the alleged 101 contradictions was in fact contradicting himself in the first place.

The earlier you accept, the better for you.

Scribes and copyists, according to this source, make two types of scribal errors

1. Spelling of proper names (especially unfamiliar foreign names)
2. Numbers.

I give up having been admitted by you.