₦airaland Forum

@noisycheeks


Please try to read and understand before posting anything. Posting the above showed that you are a complete mishciefmaker.



All muslims and even non muslims are aware of the five pillars of Islam but Muslims maintain silence about the sixth pillar which they must perform as Muslims.

You are here again presenting another lies from your authors.


AT-TAWBA 29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.



Do you see the one highlighted. Read, ponder on the meaning and figure out who the above referred to and why was it said. Do you pay tax to muslims where you are now. You go about lifting from your authors that have nothing to offer you but deception. I dont need to waste my time with you here, a word is enough for the wise.



AT-TAWBA 5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

You lacked understading, lifting from sites without understanding.




and yet the same qur'an claims it is not a religion of compulsion

Same as above, ignorance is a disease.



AL-BAQARA 256
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


Same as above.



And because of the reward of 72 virgins with self regenerating hymen, many are killed at the shout of Allah akbar. Or is it a misinterpretation by muslims?


It is glaring that you are having problem.


Keep wallowing in your ignorance.

@stimulus



You really didn't expect to wake up to find the propaganda in Islam exposed, did you? Relax, you really haven't said anything other than filling the pages with your usual roundabout denials. Anyone can do that in a few minutes. What I asked for, you failed to produce - and where does that leave your Qur'an?? Isn't it a shame that you claimed they were LOST, and then coming back to dribble around that claim with another lie that you didn't mean to say that? No worry, I already know that your type are strangers to truth and reason - so enjoy!!


stop deceiving yourself. Go to 'Is the bible complete" and refute the posts and stop wasting your time. Let me have your rebuttal to my posts.



Pained? Not a bit! From my office, I solved your antics and still got on with my job smoothly. You were hoping that would be my reaction. Sorry, your uranium nuke went back to your roof!!  When you were creating multiple threads, you didn't clean you jiga well enough to complain back then; so your hypocrisy is only being acentuated by you.


Complaining? Never, when the time comes, babs will resurrect some threads and we will continue. Please rebut my response to your lenghty posts.


Quote from: babs787 on May 09, 2007, 01:39 PM
TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.
Na so. That is why we continue to oblige you the falsehood in islam - and it is only a matter of time before your falsehood will perish. Sit tight and hold a towel.

Yes you are right especially the falsehood about the completeness of the bible.


@babs787,

When you argue issues, use your brains - it was not put there as a mass of pus!


Oh really, you imagine the pot calling kettle black, did you use your brain when you posted three lengthy rejoinders thinking that babs will never have time for your lies but you were shocked and babs went as far as revealing your falsehood more in the areas of giving quoting wrong verses from my book.




Sorry, but what is my worry that the lies are of the khalifites? Are they not in the Muslim camp? Oh, they are considered liars all of a sudden, after you spread your own gutter lies about Christianity, ba?

Muslim camp? You can see that you are confused yourself. Thats one thing about Islam, if any falshood wants to approach it, the muslim world is quickly alerted and necessary steps is taken. How many homes do you see the Quran and how many muslims are aware of him? I thought you are claiming that Jehovah witnesses are not part of you amd that they are not christians.




What gear? Where have I claimed to have been a Muslim? I relaxed, but since you're know for your hypocrisy and antics to continue your propaganda, I served you your own soup, nice and clean. Enjoy!!

Really, yes you revealed your falsehood again.



When you're done sobbing, please make more interesting post. You can accuse me of lying; but al-taqiyya is not my religion!! Do the simple sane thing any underaged school kid would do - check out the claims. You offered the fallacious argument that because of those books not found in the Bible, therefore your otiose inference was that the Bible was not complete. I only used the same silly argument in examining your Qur'an; and the result is not any different.

Honestly I keep saying it, we are now seeing the liars. Common, go there and rebut the links on papyril. You are laying emphasis on some missing books, didnt I give you missing verses from the bible too? Your lies have been exposed so no where to hide.




Oh, just relax. I serve your pies in piecemeal lest you ckoke on having too much to chew!!

I served you same too. You only need to read and refute.



Good! Hold on to that Arabian reconstructed tale; and as we proceed, you'll get the silly gist exposed about what Muhammad was dreaming up. The accusations that you guys have been throwing around will be scrutinized one by one.


You are still here defending the indefendable. It is very glaring with those links supplied that your bible is imcomplete. Do I need say more? Common be a man and stop deceiving yourself. Even a non muslim told your sister same in that thread to stop wasting her time cos babs supplied the facts needed.



I'm a normal thinking person who has refused to be mute against your illiterate propaganda. It is only when you read posts exposing your hypocrisy that you begin to ask if my BP was normal. So, where are the Gospel, Injil and Psalm (as if "Gospel" and "Injil" are different)?? Haba, babs787, why you no take style dust up on your shame? Please humour me the more - what exactly are written in the non-existent Gospel, Injil and Psalm of the Qur'an that you claimed were lost?? Are you quickly eating back your words as pilgrim.1 warned earlier?


Brother, it seems you are confused. I thought you have asked those questions in your three posts and I have responded, you only need to go and read again and get back at me. Are you still saying your bible is complete?



When something is LOST, it cannot be found!! Coming back to claim the direct opposite of what you earlier stated is cowardise and dishonest!! Abi your Eng-lish don change to Qura-lish??


I dont need to waste time with you, fact has been established you are just shouting unnecesaarily which is very normal when falsehood is being revealed. Go to the thread 'is bible complet' and read more for yourself.



Nope. You never meant that "books" is the same thing as "stories". When pilgrim.1 offered an explanation in stronger persuasion, you threw it out wholesale, but now you're crying wadada because it has come back to you! Meanwhile, the Qur'an never called them "stories" - it says that they are "BOOKS"!! Unless you're attempting to write your own version of the Qur'an, please stick to what Muhammad called them: "The Books of Abraham and Moses", (Sura 87:18-19); not "the stories of Abraham and Moses"

Okay professor, what do the Injil  and Gospel contain? What do the books of Moses and Jesus contain?  Thanks



Second, you never made the assumption that any of those books including the Torah, Gospel and Psalms were included in the Qur'an. Scroll back up and see what you said as I quoted; and if you're trying to play silly with this, then I will quote it directly for you once again:

I never did? We are now seeing who has been acting silly all these while. Read up again for understanding professor.



Quote from: babs787 on April 17, 2007, 11:06 AM
IS THE QURAN WRONG IN STATING THAT THE TORAH WAS LOST OR CORRUPTED?click here and read it <https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html>!

Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.click here to read it <https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html>!

There they are! So, don't even try to cut corners with me, because I warned you in the first post of this thread that you will come back exposing your dishonesty, deception and hypocrisy!! I should have captioned this thread: "BABS787 EXPOSED!!" and make readers see the hypocrite that you are. You can't even stand up to your own words, and then you have the temerity to be calling Christians liars! I hope your brethren will see you exposed for the real person that you are!! Enjoy the exposure!!


Haba, nairalanders I tire for this liar o. I DIRECTED HIM TO LINKS CONTAINING THE MISSING BOOKS AND DIFFERENT BIBLES AND HE IS HERE ACUSSING ME OF LYING AGAIN WHEN TRUTH HAS BECOME GLARING.









Your ignorance or mine, just where are the books in the Qur'an, babs787?? I don't mind if they were arranged in any order by Ali, Zaid, or the third Caliph's committee; the question is, where are they in the Qur'an?  Quote from: babs787 on April 17, 2007, 11:06 AM  Quran 3 v 65: O people of the scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? So the Quran contains everything you need to know about them and by saying that it has included their books because the Torah contains story of Jesus and we have his story in the Quran. the Injil contains that of Moses and we have his story in the Quran too. So that answers your question. I never realized you could be so badly hit!! To the extent that you're now confusing yourself and confiscating your IQ.

posting lenghty rejoinder yet making no sense. What are you trying to say up sir?




Take a look at that line again: "the Torah contains story of Jesus" - even the Qur'an does not teach that. Have you become another Khalifite overnight?

If the Quran does no teach Gospel, why does it contain JESUS' STORY, HIS DISCIPLES AND HIS PEOPLE?



The Qur'an never said that it included any of those books, and no muslim has ever taught that rubbish at all except the hypocrites! You're trying to buy a cheap escape route for your denials, but it won't work.


Am asking you again, what do the Gospel contains?





The Qur'an mentions those books as separate from anything revealed to Muhammad - and that fact alone stands clear as testimony that, in just the same way you have alleged against the Bible, so the Qur'an is by far more seriously lacking in integrity! It does not say "stories"; and I did not ask you for "stories". The Qur'an mentions them as "BOOKS" - and if you cannot produce those books, accept your hypocrisy has failed you badly!  


Now you claimed that the books are not included, please what does the gospel given to jesus contains? If the quran didnt contain those books, why are we having jesus story and that of Moses?



Playing Islamic games is what you do best! Why you dey lie like say na your second nature?? The authors you claimed lied to me are Muslim authors - because it is their books I quoted. If they lied, what's my problem with that?? Check and see that my quote was from Shakir's translation; and I'm sure he would not take kindly to your calling him a liar as an author!  Now, go over again in your own version - don't you see that you even tried to deceive yourself by misquoting and adjusting their translation? You quoted from the Hilali-Khan translation, and for all that you still had to omit some of the words in them. I'll help you see the difference:  quoted by babs787 Hilali-Khan translation  11nay (do not do like this); Nay, (do not do like this), indeed it (this Quran) indeed it (these Verses of this Qur'an) is an admonition are an admonition,  The highlighted words are those you deleted!! Thank you, sir!!  

Brother, why cant you reason for a minute and stop going round in circles. You accused me of omitting some words from the Quran, can you please give me the translation of other authors? You are still saying that I deleted some words, compare other authors with the one given and tell me if the verses are not referring to Quran as against your lie that the verses referred to other books.




Meanwhile, you have once again confirmed that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors! If you cannot trust Shakir's translation because your gimmicks are exposed, then what is the rational for even your misquoting Hilali-Khan's translation??


Abegi, stop deceiving yourself. Give me the full verses of the translators and tell if their meanings are different.




Quote from: babs787 on April 17, 2007, 11:06 AM  #4. What 'books' are being referred to; and WHERE are they? || Sura 66:12 'And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.'  Must you lie brother? Truth stands from falsehood. This is the verse  Quran 66 v 12: And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be - and he was; that is Jesus, son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and she was of the pious,  See you being further exposed! You're quoting and misquoting from Hilali-Khan's translation, while my quote was from Shakir's. Apart from the fact that I haven't misquoted Shakir's, here's once again the verse from Hilali-Khan that you have cheated on (wordings that you tampered with are in bold; the one's you removed are in red):  yours: And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be - and he was; that is Jesus, son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and she was of the pious.  Hilali-Khan: And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imrân who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Rûh [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel)], and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord [i.e. believed in the Words of Allâh: "Be!" and he was; that is 'Iesa (Jesus) ­ son of Maryam (Mary); as a Messenger of Allâh], and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitîn (i.e. obedient to Allâh).  Click the link to access Hilali-Khan's online English translation of the Qur'an <http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/66.htm>; and a second one here    




Brother, still the same issue, the verses of the Quran do not change despite different authors. You have been accusing me of dishonesty all these while, can you please give me the full verses and tell me the meaning? You have been going round in circles and making no sense, please wake up brother. What does the statement mean 'and (also believed in) His Scriptures'.? You know you said in your previous post that the verse referred to books which you are trying to say that they are lost. Now am asking you again, what does the highlighted statement mean to you? ARE the verses not referring to Jesus? Thanks




You may call me anything you like: I'm used to it. But at least, please have the decency of being honest enough not to mislead your readers into believing and confirming my assertions that you're a total stranger to truth and reason!

Judge yourself please.



Quote from: babs787 on April 17, 2007, 11:06 AM  The books referred to are the scriptures i.e the Injil and the Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively. Na wa for your websites or authors. Another otiose excuse. I'm sorry that I never read in the Qur'an that Muhammad's 'Allah' sent down any Injil to Moses - it maintains throughout that it was rather the Torah that was sent to Moses!! And even then, may I ask you once again:  Where are the Torah, the Injil, the Psalms, and ALL the books that you claim were lost?  If you cannot provide them, your Qur'an is standing on the same fallacious argument you alleged against the Bible. YOUR QUR'AN IS NOT A COMPLETE BOOK!! Period.  Filling the thread with silly misquotes of Hilali-Khan's English translation; calling me all sorts of names; and arguing with skewed theories in the hope that you will tire out the readers not to see your dribbles, are not going to help you round this subject it all. You have said nothing substantial so far; and I do hope that all your jackbooters can see you exposed for what you really are - a hypocrite who can't hold up to his own words!!  If it wasn't that nossycheek has provided you with further exposure to your games, I would gladly have obliged you something to keep you busy. The joke of calling me a liar, when you can't prove your familiarity to truth!


Brother stop wasting your time unnecessarily, you and your folks have been the one using all sort of names for babs which he never cared. I never misquoted anything, you are the one confusing yourself. All the translators said the same thing unless you want to deceive yourself. In your first post, you claimed that the verses were referring to other books whereas the verses referred to Jesus and the Gospel. You posted three rejoinders in which I have provided detailed responses to your allegations. Are you trying to deny the incompleteness of the bible? Another question again, you know that Muhammed never met Moses and Jesus, so how come we are having their stories in the Quran. Again, what does the Torah contains and what does the Gospel contain. Lest I forget, what does the Psalm contain?

Thanks.

Maybe when you are able to supply answers, we will continue from there.

@noisycheeks


ago-2007

surely, you have gone babs787 way pasting long epistles from your anti christian websites and when you are given similar long passages you will pretend not being able to read long passages like babs did when confronted with the same numerous questions he is used to posting.

The question is simple. Just answer it and let others follow the discussion, if actually it is meant to be


Sister, anybody telling you the truth will always go babs' way. You are still here accusing me of giving me long passages when you have not been able to refute my response to your lies especially on the issue of contradictions. I have provided you enough evidence but its now left for you to rebut them. You went lifting questions/contradictions from www.answering-islam. com and posted here, yet babs never complained but when he replied you with same, you started shouting because your authors have been exposed. How many verses quoted wrongly BY YOUR AUTHORS have I corrected, yet you still have the audacity to say that babs is posting long passages. Go to any christian website, pick anything on Islam and be rest assured that you will be refuted. Am I am still looking forward for more questions and when I am through, I will post my own fresh questions.




@babyosis


Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


You are still giving us the above verse, arent you tired? Even a todler will give you that verse by heart. John said God's only begotten son. You know that if parents give birth to a son and have no other child apart from him, the son will be the first, last and the only begotten son. The son will neither have brother nor sister because they gave birth to only him. Applying my explanation to your verse above, do we say Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON? as being said by John?


Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


In what way is Jesus God's son?


Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


We apply the same principle here. Do we say Jesus is really the only BEGOTTEN SON?


Insert Quote
I keep wondering who has the time to read all these long term paper eh?
If sister Khadijah found allah,good for her,what has that got to do with this discussion?


You will never have time for the truth. Read the post, check the biblical verses and apply them religiously and stop deceiving yourself.



In Africa alone it is documented that 6 million convert annually from Islam,should I blow my trumpets?
The truth sets free and has been setting people free.

What truth are you referring to here because I have never seen any truth here. You have been refuted on so many occassions while preaching your doctrines. Please let me have the truth again

@stimulus

The time has come for me to respond to your allegations that I have been deriding Jesus. Before I point out the facts for you, you should know that muslims here have been very conscious when it comes to the issue of Jesus christ. We have his story in my book, we believe in him and his mother so we can never disrespect him but you christians have been doing that unkowingly and when muslims try pointing out these to you, you resort to all sort of things going as far as telling them that they have been deriding your jesus. Bring more proof where I have been deriding jesus and I will proof it for you from my book and your book.


#1. Jesus Vs. Prophecy
Excerpt: "I came across some prophesies of God Jesus which I decide to put across to my
christian friends to assist in explaining to me because the Jesus is my book is never a liar"
[so, by implication, is the Jesus in the Bible a liar?]

Now as for your quote above, this is one of the verses posted

Mathew 10 v 23: but when they persecute you in this city, flee ye unto another city, for verily, I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son be come.

Note; the disciples of Jesus fled and they have now perished for 2000 years with no sign of the Jesus.

I gave you links that showed that bibles were written according to the church one belongs. I also gave you proofs that the original message of Jesus is lost or corrupted which made people wrote many things in the bible claiming that it was written by Jesus WHEREAS jesus never knew anything about most of the things being preached by christians today. The above verse referred to jesus as telling his disciples to flee when persecuted that he would join them before they left for another city which never materialised. Do we say Jesus said the above? Far from that, 82% of those sayings are not his. Hope you can see for yourself that I have not been deriding him. I can never do that because he is well respected by muslims but some christians have been attributing some sayings to him which he is very unaware of.


#2. O Worshippers of The Messiah, We Have A Question
Excerpt: "Then he emerged from the vagina as a tiny baby, opening his mouth and seeking the breast, . ."
[that is how they ask "A Question" and expect Christians to respond, yes?]


Brother, its just like the first response I gave to your allegation. Christians have been saying many things which jesus is never aware of. Jesus made it clear in the bible the difference between him and his creator, yet christians go as far as calling Jesus God etc. If you care to read about Jesus from my book, go to Quran 3 and start from verse 45.



#3. Was Jesus Sent To The Whole World Or Prophet Muhammad
Excerpt: "This topic has led many lazy Muslims at the crossroads, being easily deceived
by the so called Christians with their man-made religion (Pauline Christianity). . .


Oh sure,I said that. Muslims have been deceived many times that without jesus there is no salvation and that he came for the whole wordly which he never did. He came for jews and had his work limited to them. He was never sent to the whole world and has been giving some lazy muslims sleepness night, doubting their faith and thinking that those hot-gospellers might be right. Brother, I am not deriding jesus or christians as you have been saying and if you disagree with my explanations above, we can always re-address the issues backing up everything with verses from your book and my book. Most of things you called deriding are plain truth and nothing more but as the saying goes, truth is always bitter. When you bring out truth for someone to see, he will tell you that you have been deriding or insulting him.

A word is enough for the wise.

@stimulus



My context is clear enough. Muhammad said he received revelation; I want to know where that event ever happened before the verse was revealed!! He could as well have received so many "revelations" which have found their way into the Qur'an, and even though it never happened, you just want us to believe it.

Sorry, we are not mugus. Where in Jewish history did the Jews ever ask such a thing from Moses?? The verse in Qur'an 4:153 says:

Pickthall: - 'They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly.'

YusufAli: - 'Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us God in public,"

Hilali-Khan: - 'Indeed they asked Musa (Moses) for even greater than that, when they said: "Show us Allah in public,"

Shakir: - 'so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly;

SherAli: - 'They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, `Show us ALLAH openly.'

Khalifa: - 'They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically."

Brother stop playing hide and seek with me. I am asking you, where did you get your story from that it never happened. I need your proof please.



There are a lot of conjectures that we can no longer put up with. Muslims have continued to castigate the Bible. Since the Qur'an was revealed to clarify issues, we want that clarification on truth, and not on falsehood that have no historical verification. There was no time in the history of the Jews that they ever asked any such thing of Moses. If otherwise, where then did Muhammad get this non-existence allegation from?

Still the same issue. Let me have your proof that it never happened.



Quote from: babs787 on May 09, 2007, 03:57 PM
Anybody can just come up and dream up a so-called "revelation" and reconstruct narratives in order to accuse the Jews of just about anything, when such a case never happened. If you want to know, ask the Jews themselves - no single Jew ever asked Moses such a thing! And it is disingenuous to begin here to dribble round that ayat of the Qur'an - a word from "Allah"!! That is why I want to know where Muhammad got that idea from!

Do you the proof that such a thing never happened?

Please humour me.

Am still asking you to provide me the proof probably from your complete bible written differently from the jewish bible. Go on and supply me the info pls.



Who then is a prophet in Biblical understanding? The prophets preceded Muhammad, and he could not just show up centuries later to redefine issues for them. So, when giving answers, consult your LOST and non-existent books that "cannot be found", and tell us what a prophet was.

Okay please I dont know who a prophet is. Kindly tell me who a prophet is. Thanks





Okay, make we clap for you for owning up then!
When you're done, do you care to provide answers to my questions on how many gods are represented by the "WE" and "US" of the Qur'an in the other thread?

Brother I know that is your problem but will answer unless you answer my questions first.

Cheers.




@pilgrim


Hi @abdkabir,

Yes indeed, it has been quite interesting having your inputs to the discussion. I have stayed away for a few days because the debates have gravitated into something else. Having to read babs787 referring to Muslim authors as "deluded authors that lied" is quite unfortunate. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52621.0.html#msg1105867


You have come again with your biblical altaqiyah. Most of you christians prefer lie to truth. It was very glaring that the authors of the site where nossycheeks lifted those verses from lied but rather than admit the fact, you changed the tune. If you care to read, I am responsible for my saying hence very careful when dealing with christians here. Lest I forget, I willl still talk on the issues raised by stimulus that I have been deriding christians. Then I will speak from Islamic perspective backng it up with verses from your bible that really, babs has not been deriding jesus.

As for the link supplied where you said that muslims have been lying, read below for yourself and lets see the real liar

[b]Different account of Moses Childhood
S. 20:38-40

20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;
[20.40] When your sister went and said: Shall I direct you to one who will take charge of him? So We brought you back to your mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve and you killed a man, then We delivered you from the grief, and We tried you with (a severe) trying. Then you stayed for years among the people of Madyan; then you came hither as ordained, O Musa

MOSES'S STORY

[7.11] And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.
[7.12] He said: What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
[7.13] He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones

We are now seeing the liar, the first verses are for Moses while chapter 7 below is for Adam. God is exposing them one by one[/b]


Your sister wanted to defame my religion, went to her authors, lifted some so called contradictions without proper verification. She mixed the story of Moses with that of Adam and called the two, story of Moses. What do you call that? Is that not lie. Must one lie in order to deceive? I leave you to judge yourself.

Good day.

@stimulus

You have shown yourself again, always avoiding issues. Mind you, my questions came before yours, so please answer my questions first in the way listed and I will do justice to yours.

I have prepared detailed response to your question on the use of 'we' in the Quran and when I post it, you will have to refute it.

Be a man and stop behaving like a coward.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

@Noisycheeks

You may cry from now till tomorrow, I dont give a damn. You are here shouting and pointing to my thread. What of those posted by your folks? You didnt say anything on that. If you care to know that what am doing is justifiable, go through all threads, compare threads and posts of christians to that of muslims and you will see that your folks started it and theirs outnumbered that of muslims.

Insert Quote


We are now seeing the real liar and those that are deluded. I will explain them to you one after the other.



Different Account of Moses and the burning bush

S 20:9-20
[20.9] And has the story of Musa come to you?
[20.10] When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.
[20.11] So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:
[20.12] Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,
[20.13] And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed:
[20.14] Surely I am Allah, there is no god but I, therefore serve Me and keep up prayer for My remembrance:
[20.15] Surely the hour is coming-- I am about to make it manifest-- so that every soul may be rewarded as it strives:
[20.16] Therefore let not him who believes not in it and follows his low desires turn you away from it so that you should perish;
[20.17] And what is this in your right hand, O Musa!
[20.18] He said: This is my staff: I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.
[20.19] He said: Cast it down, O Musa!
[20.20] So he cast it down; and lo! it was a serpent running

S 27:7-14
[27.7] When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves.[27.8] So when he came to it a voice was uttered saying: Blessed is Whoever is in the fire and whatever is about it; and glory be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds;
[27.9] O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Mighty, the Wise;
[27.10] And cast down your staff. So when he saw it in motion as if it were a serpent, he turned back retreating and did not return: O Musa! fear not; surely the apostles shall not fear in My presence;
[27.11] Neither he who has been unjust, then he does good instead after evil, for surely I am the Forgiving, the Merciful:
[27.12] And enter your hand into the opening of your bosom, it shall come forth white without evil; among nine signs to Firon and his people, surely they are a transgressing people.
[27.13] So when Our clear signs came to them, they said: This is clear enchantment.
[27.14] And they denied them unjustly and proudly while their soul had been convinced of them; consider, then how was the end of the mischief-makers

S. 28:29-33
[28.29] So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.
[28.30] And when he came to it, a voice was uttered from the right side of the valley in the blessed spot of the bush, saying: O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
[28.31] And saying: Cast down you staff. So when he saw it in motion as if it were a serpent, he turned back retreating, and did not return. O Musa! come forward and fear not; surely you are of those who are secure;
[28.32] Enter your hand into the opening of your bosom, it will come forth white without evil, and draw your hand to yourself to ward off fear: so these two shall be two arguments from your Lord to Firon and his chiefs, surely they are a transgressing people.
[28.33] He said: My Lord! surely I killed one of them, so I fear lest they should slay me

LET ME HAVE YOUR CONTRADICTION [b]IN THE VERSES ABOVE PLEASE.[/b]



Different account of Moses Childhood
S. 20:38-40

20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;
[20.40] When your sister went and said: Shall I direct you to one who will take charge of him? So We brought you back to your mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve and you killed a man, then We delivered you from the grief, and We tried you with (a severe) trying. Then you stayed for years among the people of Madyan; then you came hither as ordained, O Musa

MOSES'S STORY

[7.11] And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.
[7.12] He said: What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
[7.13] He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones

We are now seeing the liar, the first verses are for Moses while chapter 7 below is for Adam. God is exposing them one by one




Moses and the sorcerers
S. 20:65-73

[20.65] They said: O Musa! will you cast, or shall we be the first who cast down?
[20.66] He said: Nay! cast down. then lo! their cords and their rods-- it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running.
[20.67] So Musa conceived in his mind a fear.
[20.68] We said: Fear not, surely you shall be the uppermost,
[20.69] And cast down what is in your right hand; it shall devour what they have wrought; they have wrought only the plan of a magician, and the magician shall not be successful wheresoever he may come from.
[20.70] And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa.
[20.71] (Firon) said: You believe in him before I give you leave; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you enchantment, therefore I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will certainly crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and certainly you will come to know which of us is the more severe and the more abiding in chastising.
[20.72] They said: We do not prefer you to what has come to us of clear arguments and to He Who made us, therefore decide what you are going to decide; you can only decide about this world's life.
[20.73] Surely we believe in our Lord that He may forgive us our sins and the magic to which you compelled us; and Allah is better and more abiding


S.26:41-52
[26.41] And when the magicians came, they said to Firon: Shall we get a reward if we are the vanquishers?
[26.42] He said: Yes, and surely you will then be of those who are made near.
[26.43] Musa said to them: Cast what you are going to cast.
[26.44] So they cast down their cords and their rods and said: By Firon's power, we shall most surely be victorious.
[26.45] Then Musa cast down his staff and lo! it swallowed up the lies they told.
[26.46] And the magicians were thrown down prostrate;
[26.47] They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds:
[26.48] The Lord of Musa and Haroun.
[26.49] Said he: You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.
[26.50] They said: No harm; surely to our Lord we go back;
[26.51] Surely we hope that our Lord will forgive us our wrongs because we are the first of the believers.
[26.52] And We revealed to Musa, saying: Go away with My servants travelling by night, surely you will be pursued

PLEASE SUPPLY YOUR CONTRADICTION IN THE ABOVE VERSES PLEASE OR BETTER STILL YOU HIGHLIGHT THEM.



Isreal & Obedience

S. 2:58-59
[2.58] And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
[2.59] But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.

S. 7:161-162
[7.161] And when it was said to them: Reside in this town and eat from it wherever you wish, and say, Put down from us our heavy burdens: and enter the gate making obeisance, We will forgive you your wrongs: We will give more to those who do good (to others).
[7.162] But those who were unjust among them changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them; so We sent upon them a pestilence from heaven because they were unjust.

LET ME HAVE YOUR CONTRADICTION HIGHLIGHTED PLEASE


WE ARE NOW SEEING THE REAL LIAR. TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERSIH


@Muhsin

Salam, please leave them alone. May Allah be pleased with you.

Maa Salam

@noisycheeks

As your names implies you have started behaving like your brother. Am waiting for your rebuttal to those lies posted by your authors in which I have answered. Please let me have your rebuttal.

Now if you need answers, post the remaining questions one at a time with full translation of every verse and babs will surely respond. Please make sure you give full translation for every verse posted on contradiction posted.


@stimulus

Dont worry it has not got to that. When am through with your allegations, you will defend you religion by replying some questions. You are well known for abuse when you have nothing to offer. As for the website, you should try to refute those supplied on the imcompleteness of the bible before going round in circles. Go there and refute the response in the thread, 'is the bible complete' , then we will know if sites are worth relying on at times. It seems you have not been reading the posts of babyosis, nossycheeks that have been lifting from sites cos if you have been, you wouldnt come here tendering your ignorance.

You may shout from now till tomorrow, the fact remains, when am through with your allegations, I will surely ask you some questions in which you must not dodge as you are well known for that.

stay glued.

@stimulus

It is very garing that the question is too hard for you. As for your question on the use of 'we' in the Quran, I will myself create thread for the claim but at the same time answer my questions in the way listed. I have been answering your questions according to how they are listed. So answer my questions in the link you supplied and you should know that I asked mine before yours.

So stop behaving like an escapist and let me remind you that you still have three questions in the thread' was jesus crucified.

Common be a man

@stimulus




It is usual for dishonest people to praise themselves - and that is what you have been proving. When I offered you that challenge earlier about rank-xeroxing from other websites, what did you do? Did you honestly acknowledge that was what you were doing? It was simply because you refused to be man enough to acknowledge it, that is why I exposed your fraud this time around. So enjoy it.

You are free to shout till tomorrow. The fact remains that I have not even exposed anything. I have my notes if you care to know that I give to people like to read if they feel like knowing more about religion. I still at times update my knowledge from internet because thats what they are created for, so I see no reason why should contiinue barking like one being possessed.



Quote from: babs787 on Today at 12:15:04 PM
never mind, you know that I have not created any thread, when your BP come back to normal, I will serve you real hot questions which you must answer like I have been doing here.

Why are you lying again, babs787? You have NOT created ANY thread?? Haba, alhaji. . . I hope your folks can read and understand how much exposure you're lending in support to my assertions that you really act like a total stranger to truth. Before you rank-xerox and plagiarize more articles to pretend that they are your own, please tell me who started all the following threads? --

101 Contradictions In the Bible

Easter: The Truth And Questions For Christians

Which Is The Real Jesus?

Was Jesus Sent To The Whole World Or Prophet Muhammad

Jesus vs. Prophecy

Is Jesus God?

Did Jesus Die For Our Sin? Which Sin?

Just only one thread I opened, body begin bite you?? See who is now agitated and lying to himself! I am so sorry for you, babs787 - it does not help to lie: people are reading how much you are further exposing your dishonesty!!
Cool down, your eye never red finish! You're so disturbed now that you can't even be honest with yourself. "Truth has come - falsehood don perish!


You know what brother, try to understand posts before posting anything which means that you should reason before posting anything.

If you dont understand what I meant, I said since I exposed your falsehood on the imcompleteness of the bible, you have been creating threads and babs has never done so. My response hit you real hard and you went annoyingly to create threads, never mind, when I am through with your alleged contradictions, I will post more on your doctrines and you must run. Be prepared.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERSIH.

@all christian apologists


Are you servants of God?

Please dont dudge as you are well known for.

@nossycheeks

Thanks for the posts. Since you failed in bringing them for me one at a time and we address them, I will give you links to your questions because I have to answer questions in other threads but am still reminding that when the time comes for me to create threads, you shouldnt run from my questions. So go through the links and debunk whatever you feel like and I will explain them to you. I lifted your response from similar thread you lifted yours from but will respond myself to your rebuttal because I have other questions to attend to. Please in case of next time, do endeavor to post not so many questions so that we will be able to argue them back and forth. TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.



and when you posted your 101 contradictions, you posted them one after the other. Cheap propaganda. Another shameless islamic apologist

Dont worry, I will serve you contradictions one after the other soon and some other issues too.



And so which of them measures the width of the garden? clarify please

There is a clear discrepancy with reference to the width of the Paradise or Garden in the Quran. Verse 3:133 says that it is all the heavens (Samawath: plural) and the earth combined. Verse 57:21 says that the width is the (lower?) heaven (Sama: singular) and the earth combined.

And talking about context, what has that got to do with the measurement of the garden em, sorry, gardens?

The real mischief maker has been identified. Go and read again

Similarly, in the above Noble Verses, we see that in (39:73, 41:30, 57:21, and 79:41) the word "Garden" is used for Paradise.  The word "Garden" in those verses is "Jannah" in Arabic which means Paradise.  We also see in Noble Verses (18:31, 22:23, 35:33, and 78:32) the word "Gardens" is used for Paradise.  The word "Gardens" in those verses is written as "Jennat" in Arabic which is the plural for "Jannah".  



what is the difference between what you quoted? I have not understood anything that is clearly conflicting.  bear them company for life, means live in peace with them and be not protector of them clearly means behead them as the opportunity presents itself.

This is clear english and does not require the atilogu dance you are practicing here and on the other questions.

Hey The truth has come, falsehood is bound to disappear!

Your falsehood and mischief has been revealed further. Did the verse talks about beheading parents or not listening to them when they ask you to serve other gods?

Read yourself, I have been telling you, your authors will continue disgracing you.

 (31:15) "But if they strive (Jahada) to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), "


9:23) "O ye who believe! Take not protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above faith: If any of you do so, they do wrong"

Did you understand. You shouldnt obey them when they call you to come and worshipgod and not son beheading parents. You can see your lie.



5. Which enters the Paradise: Soul or Body or Both?
     After resurrection, it is the body (after reuniting with the soul?) which enters the Paradise. This has been emphasized throughout the Book. See verses 13:5, 17:98-99, 20:55, 34:7, 75:3-4. However verses 27-30 in Sura 89 state that it is the Soul (Nafs)* which enters the Garden!  
(17:99)  
"See they not that Allah who created the heavens and the earth has the power to create the like of them (anew)? , "  
(75:3-4)  
"Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay we are able to to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers, "   (89:27-30)  
(To the righteous soul will be said) "O (tho) soul, in (complete) rest and satisfaction! Come back thou to thy Lord - well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him! Enter thou, thee among my Devotees! Yea, enter thou My Heaven!"  
(31:28)  
"Your creation and your rising (from the dead) are only as (the creation and the rising of) a single soul, "   (Pickthall)
 
   In Islam, the bliss in Paradise is not complete without the corporeal and sense pleasures. Otherwise, how can one drink Zanzabil (76:17), feel the moderate temperature (76:13), enjoy maidens (55:56) and drink honey and milk (47:16-17). These are all joys in state for the faithful.
   Yousuf Ali (note 6128 for verse 89:27-30) also says that it is the soul which enters the heaven, and not the gross body which perishes (His comment is contradictory to what verse 75:3-4 says!). Read verse 31:28 also. It says man's creation or resurrection is in no wise but as an individual soul*. Pickthall's translation (see box above) is more clear.
_____________

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/soul.htm




6. God needs man or man needs God?
   A very clear contradiction exists between verses 51:56 and 35:15. While the former verse says that God created Jinns and mankind for His own reasons (read also 67:2), the latter one says it is man who is in need of God! Read also 51:57.  
(51:56)  
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me" *
(67:2)  
"He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is the best in deed"   35:15  
"O mankind! It is you that have need of God: but God is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise"
 
_____________
   * Of interest in this regard is the popular (but probably fabricated) Hadith: "I was a secret treasure, and I created the creatures in order that I might be known" (*, *)


http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/need.htm



7. EVIL AND GOOD: Where do they come from?
   While one verse says that both Evil and Good issue from Allah, the very next verse says only Good comes from Allah!
 
(4:78)    
",  If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah, "*   (4:79)    
"Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself"
 
________________
   * Interestingly, the remainder of this verse goes like this: "But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact?" Can anyone understand what God says here? The fact that both Good and Evil are from Allah or only Good is from Allah?


http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=54



8.  Who has to be blamed for BELIEF AND DISBELIEF ?
 
(6:12)    
"It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe"   (10:100)  
"No soul can believe except by the will of Allah"

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/blame.htm


 

    9. Who has to be blamed for the wrongs done?
   From verses 35:8, 16:93, 74:31, 2:142, we learn that it is Allah who has to be blamed for all the misguidance. While other verses hold man himself responsible for the wrongs done (30:9, 4:79).
 
(35:    
"Allah leaves stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills"    (30:9)    
"It was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls"
 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/blame.htm


10. UNBELIEVERS: To be persecuted or forgiven?
    Verses 23:117 and 98:6 say that unbelievers will not prosper and are the worst of creatures!. Verse 9:29 also asks believers to fight those who do not believe in Allah, the Last Day, His rules and His religion of truth. But verse 45:14 says otherwise. Read also 16:128.
 
(9:29)  
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , "   (45:14)    
"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; It is for Him to recompense (for good or evil) each people according to what they have earned"



http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/persecute.htm



    11. God's advice to Muhammed on propagating Islam
   We have seen apologists quoting verses from the Quran in support of their claim that the Quran does not recommend forceful conversions. The verse they often quote is 2:256 which says "There is no compulsion in religion". There are also many verses in the Quran which suggest otherwise and these have already appeared on web pages. Here we see two contradicting directives from God on conveying Allah's religion to the people:
 
(3:20)  
"So if they dispute thee, say: "I have permitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me",  "Do you (also) submit yourselves? If they do, they are in right guidance. But if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the message. And in Allah's sight are (all) His servants"   (8:38-39)    
"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from disbelief), their past would be forgiven; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning to them). And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah's in its entirety,  "
 
   Is verse 8:38-39 an abrogation of verse 3:20? If that is the case, can we recommend the directives in verse 8:38-39 as the standard method to be followed by all Muslims? Or is the latter verse given during the context of war? To me, these verses reflect the changing moods of the prophet in response to the public reaction he received. We see a content & tolerant messenger in verse 3:20 and a contempt and aggressive messenger in verse 8:38-39!


http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/propagate.htm



So sister I have provided answers to all your allegations, go through them and rebut asmany as you can and I will explain. When we are through with all these, you will explain to me in the bible how 500 turned 5000, 800 to 8000 and other issues. Apart from getting answers to your questions, you will learn more about Islam, christianity and other issues which your pastors have been hiding from you and unable to answer.

Take care.

Please let us have the verses in full

Thanks

@stimulus


You dont want to stop your noise. why not tell your sister that went lifting from answrin-Islam. You didnt see her but it is mine you would see. It seems I hit you real hard with regards to some of my responses, never mind, you know that I have not created any thread, when your BP come back to normal, I will serve you real hot questions which you must answer like I have been doing here.


@nossycheeks

Thumb up. it seems my exposing theimcompleteness of your bible pained you so much. Dont worry, you know that I have not created new threads. Soon, you will tell me how come 700 turns to 7000.

Also, i have noticed that you posted many questions at a time making it cumbersome for me to respond. But I will respond to your comment to my earlier posts and will also provide you link to your answers. You read them and rebut them and I will explain them to you.




2. Width of the Garden


Similarly, Sometimes the word "heaven" is symbolically used by Allah Almighty to represent all the heavens' levels Allah Almighty created, and sometimes the word "heavens" is used by Allah Almighty to exactly represent all the heavens' levels Allah Almighty created.
In Arabic, the words Heaven and Paradise (Garden) can be either singular or plural depending on the grammar and the word's location in the sentence.

Note: There are singular phrases for Heaven and plural ones as well in the English language. "The LORD of Heavens" is a plural phrase, where "In Heaven we will live peacefully" is a singular one.



I find it amusing that heaven and heavens means the same thing. If heavens is made up of so many levels apparently it measures more than heaven. And so what exactly is the width of the garden? Did I hear you say that there is no contradiction in the verses? Try again

And no difference between garden and gardens?


Further explanation

Gardens - Jennah - Paradise
Garden - Jannah - Paradise
Garden & Gardens - Paradise depending on how they are used in the context.

If you still do not understand, get in touch.


4. Attitude towards unbelieving parents

Al-Quran givens contradicting information as to what a believer should do when unbelieving parents and brothers insist on worshipping their gods. Verse 31:15 asks believers to keep company with unbelieving parents even if they insist (on following their religion?), but verse 9:23 asks believers not to take their fathers and brothers as protectors if they disbelieved!

(31:15) "But if they strive (Jahada) to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), "

(9:23) "O ye who believe! Take not protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above faith: If any of you do so, they do wrong"

These verses of course appear in different contexts. Apologists can argue that verse 9:23 is applicable only in the context of hostilities and not otherwise. Then we have to define what is hostility. We must not forget that many passages in the Quran reflect an hostile environment of fluctuating fortunes between believers and unbelievers. Since neither the Suras nor all the verses within Suras are arranged chronologically, the contexts of these `revelations' become that much difficult to understand. Interestingly, verse 31:15 also seems to appear in the context of `Striving' from the Unbelievers' side. Note the word `Jahada'!

You pretend not to know the truth but alas they are starring at your face

Further explanation to the verses


(31:15) "But if they strive (Jahada) to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), "

The above verse is saying that you should obey your parent but when it comes to worshipping another god, you should never obey them hence the word, ' But if they strive (Jahada) to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not'. Of course we all know that one musnt disobey one's parent but when it comes to worshippin other god, we shouldnt follow them

9:23) "O ye who believe! Take not protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above faith: If any of you do so, they do wrong"


The above is telling us that you shouldnt take your unbeliever parent as protectors and not as your author translated it. You must love your parent and give them their respects but when it comes to unbelief on their part, you shouldnt take them as protectors because they will be finding ways of turning you away from God.

Hope you understood?

QUESTION 6


6. God needs man or man needs God?
A very clear contradiction exists between verses 51:56 and 35:15. While the former verse says that God created Jinns and mankind for His own reasons (read also 67:2), the latter one says it is man who is in need of God! Read also 51:57.
(51:56)
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me" *
(67:2)
"He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is the best in deed" 35:15
"O mankind! It is you that have need of God: but God is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise"


Of course man needs God. Allah Almighty created us to only worship Him; see Noble Verses 51:56 and 67:72. He also created us weak; see Noble Verses 4:28, 30:54 and 35:15. We need Him; see Noble Verses 35:15 (again) and 47:38.

To Him belong the end and the beginning for everything He created; see Noble Verses 53:25 and 92:13.

To Him belong the glory and the power; see Noble Verses 4:139, 10:65, 35:10, 37:180 and 63:8.

Allah Almighty doesn't need anyone in this universe, but we all need Him; see Noble Verse 35:15.


Of course man needs God. Allah Almighty created us to only worship Him; see Noble Verses 51:56 and 67:72. He also created us weak; see Noble Verses 4:28, 30:54 and 35:15. We need Him; see Noble Verses 35:15 (again) and 47:38.

To Him belong the end and the beginning for everything He created; see Noble Verses 53:25 and 92:13.

To Him belong the glory and the power; see Noble Verses 4:139, 10:65, 35:10, 37:180 and 63:8.

Allah Almighty doesn't need anyone in this universe, but we all need Him; see Noble Verse 35:15.

Ask any Arabic speaking Christian, the Arabic word "Ya-bu-doon" does not mean "serve". It means "Worship".

@Noisycheeks

It seems you are that blind to understand posts. You are free to debunk and let me have biblical passages that deal with the issues.


QUESTION 5


5. Which enters the Paradise: Soul or Body or Both?
     After resurrection, it is the body (after reuniting with the soul?) which enters the Paradise. This has been emphasized throughout the Book. See verses 13:5, 17:98-99, 20:55, 34:7, 75:3-4. However verses 27-30 in Sura 89 state that it is the Soul (Nafs)* which enters the Garden!  
(17:99)  
"See they not that Allah who created the heavens and the earth has the power to create the like of them (anew)? , "  
(75:3-4)  
"Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay we are able to to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers, "   (89:27-30)  
(To the righteous soul will be said) "O (tho) soul, in (complete) rest and satisfaction! Come back thou to thy Lord - well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him! Enter thou, thee among my Devotees! Yea, enter thou My Heaven!"  
(31:28)  
"Your creation and your rising (from the dead) are only as (the creation and the rising of) a single soul, "   (Pickthall)
 
   In Islam, the bliss in Paradise is not complete without the corporeal and sense pleasures. Otherwise, how can one drink Zanzabil (76:17), feel the moderate temperature (76:13), enjoy maidens (55:56) and drink honey and milk (47:16-17). These are all joys in state for the faithful.
   Yousuf Ali (note 6128 for verse 89:27-30) also says that it is the soul which enters the heaven, and not the gross body which perishes (His comment is contradictory to what verse 75:3-4 says!). Read verse 31:28 also. It says man's creation or resurrection is in no wise but as an individual soul*. Pickthall's translation (see box above) is more clear.
_____________


ANSWER

In Noble Verses 13:5, 17:98-99, 20:55, 34:7 and 75:3-4, Allah Almighty clearly Says that He will recreate our bodies in Judgement day or in the day of ressurection.

For Noble Verses 89:27-30 and 31:28, when our bodies ressurect from desolved sand in the day of ressurection and become fresh bodies again, we will live in those bodies for a period of 50,000 years until the very last person gets his verdict on whether to enter heaven or hell.  See Noble Verse 70:4, which referes to the Day of Judgment, where our judgment will take 50 thousand human years to finish before the very last person of mankind enters either heaven or hell.  The phrase "Day of Judgment" in Arabic doesn't mean one day.  It means multiple days (50,000 years).

When a person recieves his verdict, if he recieves hell, then he and his body shall enter hell where his body will pay for all the sins it commited along with his soul by feeling the pain of the body as we do now in our current life.  If he recieves heaven, then he and his body (sould and body) will enter paradise where he shall live in it for eternity in full pleasure, see Noble Verses 76:13,17, 47:16-17 and 55:56, where Allah Almighty explains some of the physical pleasure that we will have in paradise.

Note:  In Noble Verses 89:27-30 and 31:28 above, Allah Almighty talks to the righteous souls promissing them heaven, but doesn't state that only the soul will enter the heaven !.  Throughout the Noble Quran, Allah Almighty sometimes refers to us or calls to us by our spirits/souls only.  However, this doesn't negate our bodies.  See Noble Verses 91:7-10 and 75:1-15 where Allah Almighty refers to us by our souls first.

QUESTION 4


4. Attitude towards unbelieving parents
Al-Quran givens contradicting information as to what a believer should do when unbelieving parents and brothers insist on worshipping their gods. Verse 31:15 asks believers to keep company with unbelieving parents even if they insist (on following their religion?), but verse 9:23 asks believers not to take their fathers and brothers as protectors if they disbelieved!




ANSWER

In Noble Verse 31:15, Allah Almighty orders us not to follow even our parents if they request from us to worship other gods than the Almighty GOD, Allah. However, even if the parents are pagans or infedels, we still are ordered by the Most Merciful Allah Almighty to be there for them and to help them in life.

In Noble Verse 9:23, Allah Almighty orders us not to take even our parents if they were pagans as guidance or leading example that we must follow. Children always take their parents as the high example that they follow. In Noble Verse 9:23, we are ordered not to consider the parents as our protectors (top examples) and we must not take everything they say or do for granted because they are in wrong doing.

@Nossycheeks

If you cannot see with regards to questions 2, here is part of the explanation again.


Similarly, in the above Noble Verses, we see that in (39:73, 41:30, 57:21, and 79:41) the word "Garden" is used for Paradise. The word "Garden" in those verses is "Jannah" in Arabic which means Paradise. We also see in Noble Verses (18:31, 22:23, 35:33, and 78:32) the word "Gardens" is used for Paradise. The word "Gardens" in those verses is written as "Jennat" in Arabic which is the plural for "Jannah".

In the Arabic language, the singular and the plural for the words (Paradise or Garden) and (heaven) is the same thing. Sometimes the word Gardens is used by Allah Almighty to give a bigger picture for Paradise to the Muslims. Also, according to the Noble Quran, Heaven is made of different levels. Not all humans who enter heaven will be on the same level. Some will be at the highest level with the Prophets and the righteous people, and others will be at the lowest level where people who sinned a lot will be at. The word Garden is used for putting all the levels of Heaven into one description which we call it Paradise. However, this big Paradise consists of several levels of Heavens or Gardens.




b]QUESTION 3[/b]


3. Who misleads people? Satan or Allah?
   According to verse 4:119-120, Satan (the rejected one) is the one who creates false desires and misleads people. Refer also 15:42. However, according to verse 16:93, it is God who leaves people astray as He wills! See also 4:78.
 
(4:119-120)  
"I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires, " (says Satan)  
"Satan make them promises and creates in them false hopes, " (vouched by Allah)   (16:93)  
"If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people. But He leaves straying whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases , "




ANSWER

Let us look at Noble Verses 4:119-120 "[Satan says:] "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by God." Whoever, forsaking God, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.

Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception."

Let us look at Noble Verse 16:93 "If God so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions."

There is no contradiction in the above Noble Verses !.

In the Noble Verses (4:119-120) above, Allah Almighty clearly tells us that Satan is the primary decieving force that we might face.  For this reason, we must always avoid listening to Satan's temptations.  In the Noble Verse (16:93) above, Allah Almighty helps whom ever He wants and leaves astray whom ever he wants.  Depending on our intentions in this life, we might gain the love of GOD or gain His dislike or hate.  Allah Almighty is not obligated to help everyone He creates.  He gives us choices and makes the straight path to follow crystal clear for us.  It is ultimately up to us (the humans) to make the decission of going with the path of Allah Almighty or go with the path of Satan and evil.  See also 45:15.

QUESTION 2



2. Width of the Garden
   There is a clear discrepancy with reference to the width of the Paradise or Garden in the Quran. Verse 3:133 says that it is all the heavens (Samawath: plural) and the earth combined. Verse 57:21 says that the width is the (lower?) heaven (Sama: singular) and the earth combined.  
(3:133)  
",  a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous,"   (57:21)  
",  a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah ,  "

the context of `Striving' from the Unbelievers' side. Note the word `Jahada'!



ANSWER

The width of Paradise:

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:133 "Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,"

Let us look at Noble Verse 57:21 "Be ye foremost (in seeking) Forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in God and His apostles: that is the Grace of God, which He bestows on whom he pleases: and God is the Lord of Grace abounding."

Let us look at Noble Verse 39:73 "And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds:  Until behold, they arrive there; its gates will be opened; and its keepers will say:  "Peace be upon you! Well have ye done! Enter ye here, to dwell therein."

Let us look at Noble Verse 41:30 "In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah", and further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time):  "Fear ye not! (they suggest), Nor grieve! but receive the glad tidings of the Garden (of Bliss) that which ye were promised!"

Let us look at Noble Verse 57:21 "Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss) the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah and his messengers:  That is the grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is The Lord of Grace abounding."

Let us look at Noble Verse 79:41 "Their Abode will be the Garden."

Let us look at Noble Verse 18:31 "For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them Rivers will flow:  they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear grean garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones.  How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!"

Let us look at Noble Verse 22:23 "Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds.  To Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk."

Let us look at Noble Verse 35:33 "Gardens of Eternity will they enter:  therein will they be adorned with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk."

Let us look at Noble Verse 78:32 "Grardens enclosed, and grapevines;"

There is not contradiction in the Noble Verses above !.


In the above Noble Verses, we see that in (3:133) the word "heaven" used, while in (57:21) we see the word "heavens" used.

Similarly, in the above Noble Verses, we see that in (39:73, 41:30, 57:21, and 79:41) the word "Garden" is used for Paradise.  The word "Garden" in those verses is "Jannah" in Arabic which means Paradise.  We also see in Noble Verses (18:31, 22:23, 35:33, and 78:32) the word "Gardens" is used for Paradise.  The word "Gardens" in those verses is written as "Jennat" in Arabic which is the plural for "Jannah".  

In the Arabic language, the singular and the plural for the words (Paradise or Garden) and (heaven) is the same thing.  Sometimes the word Gardens is used  by Allah Almighty to give a bigger picture for Paradise to the Muslims.  Also, according to the Noble Quran, Heaven is made of different levels.  Not all humans who enter heaven will be on the same level.  Some will be at the highest level with the Prophets and the righteous people, and others will be at the lowest level where people who sinned a lot will be at.  The word Garden is used for putting all the levels of Heaven into one description which we call it Paradise. However, this big Paradise consists of several levels of Heavens or Gardens.

Similarly, Sometimes the word "heaven" is symbolically used by Allah Almighty to represent all the heavens' levels Allah Almighty created, and sometimes the word "heavens" is used by Allah Almighty to exactly represent all the heavens' levels Allah Almighty created.  

In Arabic, the words Heaven and Paradise (Garden) can be either singular or plural depending on the grammar and the word's location in the sentence.

Note:  There are singular phrases for Heaven and plural ones as well in the English language.  "The LORD of Heavens" is a plural phrase, where "In Heaven we will live peacefully" is a singular one.

@noisycheeks

Thanks for bringing the questions again from your liars called authors. I will respond to them one after the other.

QUESTION 1

1. Embryonic Sex Determination
   One of the references on human reproduction which Muslims often quote from the Quran is verse 53:45-46.
 
(53:45-46)  
"That He did create the pairs - male and female from a sperm-drop* (nutfah) when lodged (in its place)"    (75:38-39)    
"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made the sexes, male and female" **
___________
   *      Note the conspicuous absence of ovum required for fertilization.
   **    This view is further supported by this Hadith: "When 42 nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an Angel to it, who shapes it and make its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, "O Lord, is it male or female?" and your Lord decides what He wishes" (Hadith, Muslim, Book 33, No. 6392)



It is quite unfortunate that the English translations of the Arabic Quran was done by many people who don't speak good Arabic.  Minister Abdallah Yusuf Ali is a Muslim Minister (Sheikh) from Pakistan and he played a big role in translating the Noble Quran from Arabic to English.

The author of this claim presented this Noble Verse from the Noble Quran, 23:14 "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!"  It appears from the English translation that the scientific fact of this verse is false, because the male sperm alone does not and can not form a fetus in a woman's womb.

Let us examine the word "sperm" in Noble Verses 23:13, 23:14, 16:4, 18:37, 22:5, 35:11, 36:77, 40:67, 75:37, 76:2 and 80:19 from the Noble Quran.  I looked very carefully at each Noble Verse, and I found out that all of them use the Arabic word "Nut'fa" which was wrongly translated as sperm.  The Arabic word for sperm is is "Haywan-Manawee."  The Arabic word "Nut'fa" means the actual combination of multiples of "Haywan-Manawee."  

So in other words, One "Nut'fa" = One "Haywan-Manawee" + Another "Haywan-Manawee" and so on ,

Now, the word "Haywan-Manawee" in Arabic means either a male sperm or a female egg.  It is unfortunate and confusing that the Arabic language unites both the male and the female sperm and egg with one word.  

So when the Noble Quran used the word "Nut'fa" in the several Noble Verses above, it didn't just mean the male sperm alone.  It meant both the male and the female sperm and egg respectively.

Traditionally in the Middle East, when the word "Haywan-Manawee" is used in a conversation, it is usually meant for the male sperm.  The sound of it in Arabic makes its meaning gear more toward the male.  However, it may not always be the case that a person is talking about the male sperm alone.  That is why Minister Abdallah Yusuf Ali mistranslated the Arabic word "Nut'fa" to "sperm".

A similar case exists in English.  Take the word "guys" for instance.   When a person says "you guys are nice", it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is talking about males only.  In English, I could tell a group of females "you guys are nice."  I could also tell a group of males and females mixed "you guys are nice."  Traditionally in English, the word "guys" usually means males only.  But the actual word could include both males and females


FURTHER EXPLANATION

EMBRYOLOGY


MAN IS CREATED FROM ALAQ---A LEECH-LIKE SUBSTANCE


A few years ago a group of Arabs collected all information concerning embryology from the QUR'AN, and followed the instruction of the QUR'AN:


"If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message."

                                                                                 [AL-QUR'AN 16:43 & 21:7]


All the information from the QUR'AN so gathered, was translated into English and presented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, who was the Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada. At present he is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding the information present in the QUR'AN concerning the field of embryology. After carefully examining the translation of the Qur'anic verses presented to him, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the QUR'AN is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were however a few verses, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment. He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he himself was not aware of the information contained therein. There was also mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology. One such verse is:


"Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name Of thy Lord and Cherisher, WHO created---Created man, out of A (mere) clot Of congealed blood."

                                                                                           [AL-QUR'AN 96:1-2]


The word 'alaq' besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the embryo under a very powerful microscope in his laboratory and compared what he observed with a diagram of a leech and he was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two! In the same manner, he acquired more information on embryology, that was hitherto not known to him, from the QUR'AN.

Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questions dealing with embryological data mentioned in the QUR'AN and HADITH. Noting that the information contained in the QUR'AN and HADITH was in full agreement with the latest discoveries in the field of embryology, Prof. Moore said, "If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information."

Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, 'The Developing Human'.After acquiring new knowledge from the QUR'AN, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, 'The Developing Human'. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the QUR'AN about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- from GOD or ALLAH, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- must have been a messenger of GOD or ALLAH{The reference for this statement is the video tape titled 'This is the Truth'.For a copy of this video tape contact the Islamic Research Foundation}.

Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims: ", these HADITHS, sayings of MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the writer (7th century). It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (ISLAM) but in fact religion (ISLAM) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, there exist statements in the QUR'AN shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the QUR'AN having been derived from GOD."


MAN CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THE BACKBONE AND THE RIBS


"Now let man but think From what he is created! He is created from A drop emitted --- Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs."

                                                                                           [AL-QUR'AN 86:5-7]


In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads(ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads(testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the back bone(spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.


HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM NUTFAH (Minute Quantity of Liquid)


The Glorious QUR'AN mentions no less than eleven times that the human being is created from 'nutfah', which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickle of liquid which remains after emptying a cup. This is mentioned in several verses of the QUR'AN including 22:5 and 23:13. {The same is also mentioned in the QUR'AN in 16:4, 18:37, 35:11, 36:77, 40:67, 53:46, 75:37, 76:2 and 80:19} Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required for fertilising the ovum. This means that only a 1/three millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.


HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM SULALAH (quintessence of liquid)


"And made his progeny From a quintessence Of the nature of A fluid despised."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 32:8]


The Arabic word 'sulalah' means quintessence or the best part of a whole. We have come to know now that only one single spermatozoan that penetrates the ovum is required for fertilization, out of the several millions produced by man. That one spermatozoan out of several millions, is referred to in the QUR'AN as 'sulalah'. 'Sulalah' also means gentle extraction from a fluid.The fluid refers to both male and female germinal fluids containing gametes. Both ovum and sperm are gently extracted from their environments in the process of fertilization.


MAN CREATED FROM NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ (Mingled liquids)


Consider the following Qur'anic verse:


"Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]


The Arabic word 'nutfatun amshaajin' means mingled liquids. According to some commentators of the QUR'AN, mingled liquids refers to the male or female agents or liquids. After mixture of male and female gamete, the zygote still remains 'nutfah'. Mingled liquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that is formed of various secretions that come from various glands. Therefore 'nutfatun amshaaj', i.e. a minute quantity of mingled fluids refers to the male and female gametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of the surrounding fluids.


SEX DETERMINATION


The sex of a foetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the chil, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an 'X' bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the foetus is a female and if it is a 'Y' bearing sperm then the foetus is a male.


"That HE did create In pairs---male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place)."

                                                                                       [AL-QUR'AN 53:45-46]


The Arabic word 'nutfah' means a minute quantity of liquid and 'tumna' means ejaculated or planted. Therefore 'nutfah' specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated.


The QUR'AN says:


"Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                       [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]


Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word 'nutfatan min maniyyin) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the foetus. Mothers-in-law in the Indian subcontinent, by and large prefer having male grandchildren and often blame their daughters-in-law if the child is not of the desired sex. If only they knew that the determining factor is the nature of the male sperm and not the female ovum! If they were to blame anybody, they should blame their sons and not their daughters-in-law since both the QUR'AN and Science hold that it is the male fluid that is responsible for the sex of the child!


FOETUS PROTECTED BY THREE VEILS OF DARKNESS


"HE makes you, In the wombs of your mothers, In stages, one after another, In three veils of darkness."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 39:6]


According to Prof. Keith Moore these three veils of darkness in the QUR'AN refer to"
(a) anterior abdominal wall of the mother
(b)the uterine wall                                                                                                (c)the amnio-chorionoic membrane.


EMBRYONIC STAGES


"Man WE did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then WE placed him As ( a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then WE made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot WE made A (foetus) lump; then WE Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then WE developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be ALLAH, The Best to create!"

                                                                                       [AL-QUR'AN 23:12-14]


In this verse ALLAH states that man is created from a small quantity of liquid which is placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed(well established or lodged) for which the Arabic word 'qararin makin' is used. The uterus is well protected from the posterior by the spinal column supported firmly by the back muscles.

The embryo is further protected by the amniotic sac containing the amniotic fluid. Thus the foetus has a well protected dwelling place. This small quantity of fluid is made into 'alaqah', meaning something which clings. It also means a leech-like substance. Both descriptions are scientifically acceptable as in the very early stages the foetus clings to the wall and also appears to resemble the leech in shape. It also behaves like a leech(blood sucker) and acquires its blood supply from the mother through the placenta. The third meaning of the word 'alaqah' is a blood clot. During this 'alaqah' stage, which spans the third and fourth week of pregnancy, the blood clots within closed vessels. Hence, the embryo acquires the appearance of a blood clot in addition to acquiring the appearance of a leech. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells(spermatozoa) using a microscope.

They thought that a sperm cell contained a miniature human being which grew in the uterus to form a newborn. This was known as the perforation theory. When scientists discovered that the ovum was bigger than the sperm, it was thought by De Graf and others that the foetus existed in a miniature form in the ovum. Later, in the 18th century Maupertuis propagated the theory of biparental inheritence. The 'alaqah' is transformed into 'mudghah' which means 'something that is chewed(having teeth marks)' and also something that is tacky and small which can be put in the mouth like gum.


Both these explanations are scientifically correct. Prof. Keith Moore took a piece of plaster seal and made it into the size and shape of the early stage of foetus and chewed it between the teeth to make it into a 'Mudgha'. He compared this with the photographs of the early stage of foetus. The teeth marks resembled the 'somites' which is the early formation of the spinal column. This 'mudghah' is transformed into bones (izam). The bones are clothed with intact flesh or muscles (lahm). Then ALLAH makes it into another creature.


Prof. Marshall Johnson is one of the leading scientists in US, and is the head of the Department of Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Institute at the Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia in US. He was asked to comment on the verses of the QUR'AN dealing with embryology. He said that the verses of the QUR'AN describing the embryological stages cannot be a coincidence. He said it was probable that MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- had a powerful microscope. On being reminded that the QUR'AN was revealed 1400 years ago, and microscopes were invented centuries after the time of PROPHET MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam---, Prof. Johnson laughed and admitted that the first microscope invented could not magnify more than 10 times and could not show a clear picture. Later he said: "I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that Divine intervention was involved when MUHAMMAD---sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--- recited the QUR'AN."

According to Dr. Keith Moore, the modern classification of embryonic development stages which is adopted throughout the world, is not easily comprehensible, since it identifies stages on a numerical basis i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc. The divisions revealed in the QUR'AN are based on distinct and easily identifiable forms or shapes, which the embryo passes through. These are based on different phases of prenatal development and provide elegant scientific descriptions that are comprehensible and practical. Similar embryological stages of human development have been described in the following verse:


"Was he not a drop Of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (ALLAH) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. And of him HE made Two sexes, male And female."

                                                                                       [AL-QUR'AN 75:37-39]


"HIM WHO created thee, Fashioned thee in due proportion, And gave thee a just bias; In whatever Form HE wills, Does HE put thee together."

                                                                                           [AL-QUR'AN 82:7-8]


EMBRYO PARTLY FORMED AND PARTLY UNFORMED


At the 'mugdhah' stage, if an incision is made in the embryo and the internal organ is dissected, it will be seen that most of them are formed while the others are not yet completely formed. According to Prof. Johnson, if we describe the embryo as a complete creation, then we are only describing that part which is already created.If we describe it as an incomplete creation, then we are only describing that part which is not yet created. So, is it a complete creation or an incomplete creation? There is no better description of this stage of embryogenesis than the Qur'anic description, 'partly formed and partly unformed', as in the following verse:


"WE created you Out of dust, then out of Sperm, then out of a leech-like Clot, then out of a morsel Of flesh, partly formed And partly unformed."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 22:5]


Scientifically we know that at this early stage of development there are some cells which are differentiated and there are some cells that are undifferentiated---some organs are formed and yet others unformed.


SENSE OF HEARING AND SIGHT


Thefirst sense to develop in a developing human embryo is hearing. The foetus can hear sounds after the 24th wek. Subsequently, the sense of sight is developed and by the 28th week, the retina becomes sensitive to light. Consider the following Qur'anic verses related to the development of the senses in the embryo:


"And HE gave You (the faculties of) hearing And sight and feeling (And understanding)."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 32:9]


"Verily WE created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm, In order to try him: So WE gave him (the gifts), Of Hearing and Sight."

                                                                                              [AL-QUR'AN 76:2]


"It is HE WHO has created For you (the faculties of) Hearing, sight, feeling And understanding: little thanks It is ye give!"

                                                                                            [AL-QUR'AN 23:78]


In all these verses the sense of hearing is mentioned before that of sight. Thus the Qur'anic description matches with the discoveries in modern embryology.

@Stimulus

Its not compulsory that you must see oyb.



My question is simple and straightforward: WHERE and WHEN was such a thing ever asked of Moses??

If thats the way you want it. Please tell me, are you asking the question from biblical perspective or Quranic so that I will know how to answer you?



Anybody can just come up and dream up a so-called "revelation" and reconstruct narratives in order to accuse the Jews of just about anything, when such a case never happened. If you want to know, ask the Jews themselves - no single Jew ever asked Moses such a thing! And it is disingenuous to begin here to dribble round that ayat of the Qur'an - a word from "Allah"!! That is why I want to know where Muhammad got that idea from!

Do you the proof that such a thing never happened?



@davidylan


Stop clinging to straws! What about Lot, Noah, Samson, Job? Are they still "prophets"? We all know islam is only struggling for legitimacy by trying to force islamic reasoning into the bible or force biblical characters that have nothing to do with islam into the quran. Assuming Lot were even a prophet, what connection does he have with muslims and allah?

It seems you are confused yourself. Please tell me, who are they if they are not prophets?


Go and answer the questions on the contradictions in the quran thread and stop hyperventilating. You escapist!

The real escapists have been showing their faces, running from questions in threads. They know themselves

@stimulus


You may shout till tomorrow, babs doesnt care. You have shown your trademark. You posted questions in one of the threads in which I never asked you questions rather I answered everything but here you are running frm questions.

Answer my questions in the same way I have listed them for you and I can see that the word 'we' is your problem, dont worry when you answer my questions, I will answer you. You have been known very well for avoiding questions.

Escapist.

Missing Texts in Some English Translations of the Qur'an!!

My dear babs787 is worried about some versions of the Bible that have some verses (like the KJV) that some other versions do not have (like the RSV). This again is another issue I would like him and his folks to understand - that the Qur'an also suffers the same fate in versions that are circulated among Muslims.

I found this interesting website that spotted some missing texts from Rashad Khalifa's Qur'an. Since babs787 is in the habit of quoting spurious articles to discredit the Bible and Christians, I thought he would like to see what Muslims do with their own Qur'an.

I'll just post the comments on the page so readers can follow what is being stated their:

"Please examine the pages numbered 2 and 3 below. Allah Countervails and removes the entire Verse 2: 5 from the Arabic Text of Rashad's publication below. The hi-lited missing text is written with pencil by a friend of mine. Later on, on page 597 you will discover the Verse 95: 5 missing, in the English text."



Deluded stimulus. It has become glaring that you are just wasting your time, posting irrelevant senseless posts. How many muslims have you seen using the Quran of that your prophet. You can see the difference between Islam and Christianity. Every tom, dick and harry can just write the bible and you will be carrying it about, but in case of Muslim we verify things and reject anything that comes out as false.

Rashad Khalifa (November 19, 1935 – January 31, 1990) was a false prophet and an Egyptian biochemist who became a US citizen and took residence in Tucson, Arizona. Khalifa was murdered in January, 1990.


Dr Rashad Khalifa claimd to have been A Divine Messenger of The Covenant whereas he was a false prophet just like Ghulam Ahmad. He has followers called the submitters.


The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:
· Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
· Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
· Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
· Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,
Narrated AbuRafi': The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Let me have mising verses from the Quran of Picktall, yussuf Ali etc. The guy up was a false prophet just as you are being deluded by your authors.




There are articles available on the net where on-going debates are raging between Muslims about the corruptions of the Qur'an. Some of these will be served later.


What articles? You meant christian websites. Muslims are not debating on anything. He was well known to us, so you have nowhere to hide bros . Give me missing verses from that of Yussuf, Picktall etc.



TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

@noisycheeks

hmmmm. Dis you answer or dodged the questions? Come out clearly and stop dancing like a man stung by a bee in the hot sun


It is very glaring who the real liar is.




[color=#990000[b]]#1. The Missing Verses of the Qur'an

(a) The Verse of Stoning[/b]

There are many Hadiths that reveal that 'Allah' sent a verse about the stoning of those guily of fornication and adultery. Ask a Muslim where that verse is today in the Qur'an, and watch his denying excuses. There is no denying that this verse of stoning was claimed to have been sent down by 'Allah' to Muhammad.[/color]


Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)"


Ibn Kathir quotes many of the traditions about the stoning “verse” and seems to accept the idea of such a verse but does not raise any of the relevant and important questions, much less give some sensible answers to them. Some scholars have come up with the concept of two types of abrogated verses  mansukh al-tilawah (abrogated in respect to recitation) and mansukh al-‘amal (abrogated in respect to practice). It is said that the verse about stoning was mansukh al-tilawah and not mansukh al-‘amal. But coining such new technical terms does nothing to reduce the extreme weakness of the idea of a verse that was in pracitce but was omitted from the Qur`an.


It seems that some supporters of stoning are aware of the difficulties pointed out above and so they choose to ignore the “stoning verse”. Thus in his justification of the stoning penalty Shafi‘i does not at all refer to any tradition about the “stoning verse”. Mawdudi quotes some narrations of hadith attributed to ‘Umar but does not in any way use them to justify his support of al-rajm. For him they are simply an addition to the ahadith about al-rajm and serve to embelish the evidence for it. Moreover, many narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith state that pregnancy can by itself provide proof of zina` but a majority of the supporters of al-rajm, including Shafi‘i and Mawdudi, reject that view.


One may ask: if the idea of a verse about stoning, omitted from the Qur`an and banned from recitation in the daily prayers but still practiced is as absurd as we have suggested, then how could it find its way in our best Hadith collections and be accepted widely? This question ignores the fact that given right circumstances completely wrong ideas can develop and get accepted by a vast majority of people, including some very learned persons. Take for example the Christian belief in the Trinity. This belief has no basis in the teaching of Jesus, his eyewitness disciples, the gospels, other books of the Bible, or rational thought. Yet at one point it became a dominant idea in Christendom and is still professed by a majority of the church-going Christians, including some very learned ones.


In view of the weaknesses of the idea of a missing verse on stoning pointed out above, we need an extremely solid proof that this idea indeed was expressed by a man of such caliber as ‘Umar al-Faruq.


A reader who wants to discover the true Sunnah of our beloved Prophet for himself/herself must go through such examination of ahadith. It is like if you want to understand for yourself phenomena of nature, you much be prepared to follow science with some of its complex experiments, equations and theories.  


It is also very strange that ‘Umar remains the only Companion to talk about the stoning verse in a vast majority of books. This fact strongly suggests that for quite sometime the stoning verse and ‘Umar were uniquely tied to each other. Indeed, in one of the traditions it is assumed that ‘Umar was the only one who knew about the stoning verse:


[It is reported by] Ibn Abi Shaybah, concerning al-masahif, from al-Layth bin Sa‘d who said: The first to collect the Qur`an was Abu Bakr and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. And people came to Zayd bin Thabit (with the portions of the Qur`an) but Zayd did not write anything (in the Qur`an) except with the testimony of two reliable witnesses. The last part of Surah Bara`ah was not found except with Khuzaymah bin Thabit. He said, “Write it, for the Messenger of God had declared the testimony of Khuzaymah equivalent to that of two men.” So he wrote it. And[b] ‘Umar came with the verse of stoning but Zayd would not write it because ‘Umar was alone (in his testimony)[/b] (Al-Suyuti as quoted in ‘Awn al-Ma‘bud 3130)


According to this story, in the time of Abu Bakr when the Qur`an was reportedly collected no one knew about the stoning verse or no one remembered it except ‘Umar. This story is absent from all of the nine collections of Hadith covered in the Hadith Encyclopedia and does not even have complete isnad. Furthermore, as we shall see later it is in conflict with several other stories. There is therefore no likelihood that it is telling us an historical incident. Yet even fictions have some history in them. In this story, the history is that even in the time of Layth bin Sa‘d (d. 175) it was assumed by some narrators of ahadith that traditions about the stoning verse all went back only to ‘Umar: no other Companion talked about the verse. This is a powerful argument against the very idea of a stoning verse, since such a verse or, at least its existence, is expected to be known to a large number of senior Companions.



Examination of the asanid of ‘Umar’s hadith suggests the approximate time when the hadith was fabricated: As noted above the asanid show that the hadith can be take back with some probability only to the time of ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab. Now both of these Successors died in or after 93 and those who transmitted from them -- al-Zuhri, Yahya bin Sa‘id etc -- died in or after 124. ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab therefore could not have transmitted the hadith to the third-generation narrators too much earlier than 75. If we allow a couple of decades for the hadith to gain wide enough circulation for ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab to start quoting it, then we can date it somewhere between 50-80.
Examination of the contents of the narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith leads to a very significant result which may be stated at that outset: not all narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith talk about a missing Qur`anic verse about stoning. In fact, narrations that do not refer to such a verse have much more varied asanid than those that refer to it. This result is significant because it strongly suggests that ‘Umar’s hadith originally did not talk about the stoning verse. Once again it is possible to approximately date when the reference to a stoning verse was introduced in ‘Umar’s hadith: The earliest narrator who can be said with confidence to have included this reference in his narration of ‘Umar’s hadith is al-Zuhri who died in 124 or 125. Allowing a few decades for the reference to gain some circulation, we can date it between 95 and 115.


There are many weaknesses in the narration.

First, notice the statement that Ibn ‘Abbas [d. 68] was teaching ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘Awf to read the Qur`an. This is hard to believe since ‘Abd al-Rahman [d. about 32] was a senior Companion who was among the six persons ‘Umar nominated as a possible choice for khalifah after him. This part of the narration is also called into question by the fact, noted earlier, that in some narrations Ibn ‘Abbas actually learns this tradition from ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘‘Awf

Second, the alleged verse that desiring ancestors other than one’s own is kufr is found in Muslim as a hadith (1/161) without any indication of a missing verse to that effect. The reference to this missing verse about ancestors, moreover, is not found in most other narrations and so it is probably a later addition. But then if additions could be made to a tradition in this way, the reliability of the transmission process is compromised. In particular, it is possible that the reference to stoning was also added later to the khutbah of ‘Umar, a possibility that increases in likelihood when we notice that this reference comes up abruptly in the khutbah.


Third, the statement that “part of what God sent down was the verse of  al-rajm” is almost exclusively found in the narrations of al-Zuhri. The reference to the stoning verse is absent in almost all the other narrations, at least in this unambiguous form. This suggests that al-Zuhri heard the idea of the stoning verse from some unknown source and made it a part of ‘Umar’s hadith.


Fourth, the argument that al-rajm is not Islamic because it is not mentioned in the Book of God is first attributed to the Khawarij who came after ‘Umar in the time of ‘Ali. While I do not deny that a strong believer like ‘Umar could sometimes foresee the future, yet there is also a very real possibility that in the tradition under consideration later developments are being projected back in the time of ‘Umar. That is, some decades after ‘Umar someone is responding to the arguments of the Khawarij by putting his own words in ‘Umar’s mouth.
Fifth, in this narration ‘Umar, long after the death of the Prophet says that “the Prophet stoned”. Yet Ibn Ishaq mentions none of the many stories of stoning of Muslims [7] by the Prophet as part of the biography of the Prophet that he is writing. The story of a Companion of the Prophet such as the man of Aslam (Ma‘iz) or the woman of Ghamid committing zina` and then being stoned to death would have left a mark on the people of Madinah. People recalling the events that took place during Prophet’s life and those collecting those events afterwards are expected to remember and narrate or at least allude to some of these stories. But Ibn Ishaq does not do so.


Sixth, there are numerous traditions about the collection of the Qur`an and the efforts made in the time of the first three khulafa` to preserve the Qur`anic text. During the process of such “collection” we expect some questions to be raised about the stoning “verse”, e.g., why it is not in the Qur`an and whether it should be restored to it. But in earlier accounts of the collection of the Qur`an such questions are never raised. Only in very late and isolated traditions, suffering from many weaknesses and not considered reliable by a vast majority of muhaddithun, are such questions encountered and very inadequately answered.


Malik’s narration


Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from ‘Ubayd Allah ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Utbah ibn Mas‘ud that ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas said: I heard ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab say:

“al-rajm in the Book of God is justly laid on any married men and women who commit zina` if there is direct evidence (of witnesses) or pregnancy (al-habal) or confession" (Muwatta 41/.
This narration is at least as reliable as that of Ibn Ishaq. For, although Ibn Ishaq [d. 151] wrote his book before Malik [d. 179] wrote his, this particular hadith is received by Malik directly from al-Zuhri [d. 125] while, as noted earlier, Ibn Ishaq received it indirectly throung ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Bakr [d. 135].


This narration does not refer to the existence of a stoning “verse” in the Qur`an [8]. The words “al-rajm in the Book of God” may suggest such a reference but this is far from being necessary. For, in the first place, Bukhari’s narration (see below) does not contain the words “in the Book of God” and therefore it is not certain that these words were a part of the original narration of al-Zuhri. And, in the second place, even if the reference to the Book of God is original, it is not necessary that the reference is to the Qur`an. To be in the Book of God can also mean to be a part of the divine law given through the Sunnah/Hadith or even through earlier revelations. This is supported by the fact that the narration talks about proof by pregnancy, which is not mentioned in the Qur`an or any allegedly missing verse in the Qur`an. Similarly, in the story of the stoning of an employer’s wife to be discussed in detail in Chapter 9, it is said that the Prophet ordered, according to the Book of God, that the unmarried man who committed zina` with her be exiled and given 100 lashes, but the Qur`an nowhere mentions exile as a punishment for zina`.


At first sight it appears to be a reasonable hypothesis that Muwatta’s narration has focused entirely on one saying (“al-rajm in the Book of God is justly laid …”) in ‘Umar’s khutbah, that is, it is a drastically shortened form of al-Zuhri’s long narration. If so, it is unlikely that Malik shortened the narration, since a similar narration with a different isnad is also found in Bukhari (see below). But there is a strong indication that the saying is not extracted from the long version but represents a separate tradition that al-Zuhri sometimes narrated separately and sometimes as a part of ‘Umar’s hadith. This indication is provided by the fact that the saying is found only in al-Zuhri’s narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith. If it were part of ‘Umar’s hadith from the beginning, we expect to find in some other narrations, which is not the case. As we shall see later, al-Zuhri has been criticized by some of his contemporaries to attribute narrations to a Successor without personally hearing from him and also to put together narrations from different unknown sources to produce a longer narration.



Bukhari’s narrations

Bukhari gives three narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith: 6327, 6328, 6778. The first of these is very similar to Ibn Ishaq’s narration. The third also seems to be a short form [9] of the narration used by Ibn Ishaq. The second is a slight variation of Muwatta’s narration, as we now show.

The narration (Bukhari 6328) reads:

‘Ali bin ‘Abd Allah related to us: Sufyan related to us from al-Zuhri from ‘Ubayd Allah from Ibn ‘Abbas who said:
‘Umar said: I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find al-rajm in the Book of God,’ and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that God has sent down. Beware! Surely, al-rajm is justly laid on whoever commits zina` and is married and there is direct evidence (of witnesses) or  pregnancy (al-haml) or confession. "

The narration is followed by two notes:
Sufyan added, "I have memorized (this narration) in this way." (‘Umar also) said, "Surely God’s Messenger carried out the penalty of al-rajm, and so did we after him."  (Bukhari 6327).
The natural way to understand Sufyan’s words, “I memorized this narration in this way”, is that they mark the end of his narration. The additional words attributed to ‘Umar (“Surely God’s Messenger carried out … " were therefore not part of Sufyan’s narration but were added as a note from some other source. Sufyan’s narration like that of Malik thus focused on ‘Umar’s saying about the rules of evidence (“Surely, al-rajm is justly laid on whoever commits zina` … pregnancy or confession”). Al-rajm was justified only on the basis of this saying. There was no mention of the Sunnah of the Prophet and his Companions or of a missing verse about stoning. Unlike the narration of Muwatta it is not even said that “al-rajm is justly laid in the Book of God”; it is only said that “al-rajm is justly laid” without any reference to the Book of God.


We may see a hint about the stoning “verse” in the description of al-rajm as an obligation that “God has sent down”. But, as we noted earlier, rules considered part of the Shari‘ah can be said to be in the Book of God even if they are not found in the Qur`anic text. Similary, rules can be said to be “sent down by God” even if they are not part of the Qur`anic revelation. In  this narration ‘Umar’s ijtihad is considered a valid source of Islamic Shari‘ah and so it is said to sent down by God.


Moreover, narrators frequently express earlier traditions in their own words, often influenced by their understanding of those traditions. Thus the particular narration under consideration might have been influenced by some narrator’s assumption that it refers to a stoning verse, an assumption that might have led him to use the words “sent down”. It is certainly true that other narrations express ‘Umar’s words differently:

I fear that there will come groups who will not find [al-rajm] in the Book of God and so will reject it. (Tirmidhi 1351)

Here al-rajm is not described as an “obligation God has sent down”. In Ibn Majah there is a narration from Sufyan that also uses somewhat different words:

I indeed fear that as time passes someone will say, I do not find al-rajm in the Book of God and thus people are led astray by abandoning an obligation from among the obligations of God. (Ibn Majah 2543)  [10]

Hence we conclude that Bukhari 6328, like Malik’s narration, does not assume a missing stoning verse and focuses on the saying about the rules of evidence.


Our discussion of al-Zuhri’s narrations further shows:

The saying about rules of evidence represents a separate tradition that was introduced into ‘Umar’s hadith by al-Zuhri. This is because the saying is found only in al-Zuhri’s narrations.

For the same reason, the saying “part of what God sent down was the verse of al-rajm … ” was also not found in the earliest version of ‘Umar’s hadith. It was added later by al-Zuhri.

We can therefore get much closer to the earliest form of ‘Umar’s hadith by omitting the two above-mentioned sayings. This leads us to the version:

God’s Messenger did carry out stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that with the passage of time people will say that they find no mention of al-rajm in God's Book and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation sent down by God.


A narration from Sa ‘d bin Ibrahim from ‘Ubayd Allah

Muhammad bin Ja‘far and Hajjaj related to us: Shu‘bah related to us from Sa‘d bin Ibrahim who said: I heard ‘Ubayd Allah bin ‘Utbah relate from Ibn ‘Abbas from ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘‘Awf who said:

‘Umar performed hajj and intended to address the people. ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘Awf said (to ‘Umar), All kinds of riffraff (ra‘a‘) have gathered around you (in the season of hajj), so delay it till you go to Madinah. When he arrived in Madinah, I sat close to him near the minbar and I heard him say:

There are people who say, What is this al-rajm when in the Book of God there is only flogging? The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. Were it not that they will say I have inscribed in the Book of God what is not there, I would have inscribed it as it was sent down. (Ahmad 333).

Notice that the two sayings that we identified above as al-Zuhri’s additions to ‘Umar’s hadith are not to be found in this narration. There are no rules of evidence and there is nothing like the explicit reference to the stoning verse that we find in some of al-Zuhri’s narrations. The stoning verse is not even implicitly assumed here. When ‘Umar says that he “would have inscribed it” in the Book of God “as it was sent down”  [11], the meaning is not that he would have restored to the Qur`an a verse that was once there and is now missing. Rather, the meaning is that he would have written in the Qur`an a statement about al-rajm that was not there. The statement that people will accuse ‘Umar of adding to the Book of God “what is not there” is in fact an admission that the Qur`an never contained anything about stoning.


Although there is only one chain that reaches Sa‘d bin Ibrahim, there are grounds to think that Ahmad 192 [12], said to be transmitted by al-Zuhri, was originally also transmistted by Sa‘d [13], which provides another chain reaching Sa‘d and thus increases the probability that Sa‘d did transmit ‘Umar’s hadith in the name of ‘Ubayd Allah, which in turn increases the probability that ‘Ubayd Allah transmitted the hadith in some form.




LET ME STOP HERE, DO YOU STILL NEED OTHER NARRATIONS TO SHOW THAT IT WASNT INCLUDED IN THE QURAN LET ALONE BEING REMOVED?

@stimulus


Hope you have been reading them . You are exposing your falsehood further. You can see now that babs answered your questions more than you ever expected, so you should stop avoiding my questions, answer my questions in other threads to show christianity is not a false religion.

It seems my exposing your falsehood pained you to your marrow hence the creation of many threads by your friends, but never mind, babs will respond but will soon expose more of your falsehood.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

B. The Missing And Cancelled Verses of the Qur'an

The second set of accusations Muslims often hold against Christianity is that there are so-called missing verses in the Bible. Notwithstanding the explanations variously offered for this misconception, Muslims often reject them wholesale while at the same time bragging that there are NO missing verses in the Qur'an. Really??


Okay lets see.


Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
Without even going into the Quran, it has been established the the bible is incomplete. I have been telling you that if you think that the Quran is incomplete as some apologists have been claiming, bring out a verse as I have done.

The reason for this Muslim jactitation is that they have the false security of thinking non-Muslims would never discover the truth behind their braggart claims for the Qur'an. There is such a deep sense of apprehension among Muslims that if the truth is discovered that there are indeed missing verses in the Qur'an (even if it is only 1 missing verse), then a huge dilemma would engulf the Muslim world; and many people would begin to challenge age-old claims for the integrity of the Qur'an.


Go straight to the point and stop telling stories.



What the typical Muslim would do when confronted with the evidence is to become irrational, and then shamelessly deny and circumvent the obvious facade, while deflecting away from the subject with calumny against other religions. We are not interested in such typically Islamic amentia; and we just want to see if there is any substance to the claim that there are no missing verses in the Qur'an.


Your websites tried for you.




A few things readers need to understand here:

(a) there are indeed MISSING verses in the Qur'an;

We shall see as we proceed.



(b) some of the verses of the Qur'an have been CANCELLED;

Abrogated just as in the case of the bible.



(c) some other verses of the Qur'an were NOT REVEALED by 'Allah'

Okay we shall see.



(d) Muhammad interjected his own thoughts into the Qur'an.
Okay ooooooooooo.



In many of the Hadiths, there is a staggering amount of textual evidence for the case that there are missing and cancelled verses from the Qur'an. A few of these are given below. However, readers should note carefully that in some of the references given, cancelled verses are also missing verses, as they cannot be found in any verse or chapter of the Qur'an. Most of the hadith texts are too long to be posted here; so only the relevant sections that are germane to my responses will be posted, and marked with . Anyone interested in the full texts can see the hadiths in question for themselves.


Brother, I thought you know English very well. So cancel means missing to you? If the abrogated verses are missing, will they still be in the Quran. just like jesus said he didn’t come to anul any old laws but went ahead to anul. Do we say the abrogated verses are missing in the bible. You are really a professor of English Language.


Post on the verse on stoning and missing verses in the Quran coming shortly.

@stimulus


Answering Allegations Against The Bible

As we have seen, the typical argument offered by vexed Muslim propagandists accusing the Bible to be an incomplete Book, is the references to certain books which are not included in the canon of Scripture. These include the book of Jasher (2 Sam. 1:18 ), the book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20:34), and the books of Nathan the prophet and Gad the seer (1Chron. 29:29) among a few others.


Brother stop deceiving yourself. It’s not as a result of missing books alone, but missing chapters as well as verses. I have provided your sister detailed response, so stop behaving like a kid.



My Christian response is that these books are mentioned only as references and not as Scripture. It was common in early Jewish history to find prophets, seers and others recording events of national interest to Israel. Some of these writers are simply called "recorders", and their writings were not viewed as divine Scripture:

1Kings 4:3 - "Elihoreph and Ahiah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder."
1Chron. 18:15 - "And Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the host; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, recorder."
Isaiah 8:2 - "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."


Brother, what of the missing verses in some versions but present in others? What of some chapters in others but missing in others. You are just trying to defend falsehood. I have provided you detailed response. Go there and debunk.



However, such documents were never viewed in Israel's history as inspired Scripture; nor have they been quoted by the OT saints as interpretation for doctrinal issues for the religious life of Israel.

Where did you get your story from? Please check these links

for the new testament canons through the ages
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/EXHIBITAv2.htm


for the complete list of new testament papyril

http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/ExhibitE.htm



Even more remarkable is that the core issues mentioned in reference to those books of the seers are still found in the Bible! The narratives are not lost!! For instance, mention is made of the book of Jehu recording the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last (2 Chron. 20:34). Does the Bible not record the life and ministry of the same Jehoshaphat in the OT? Read 1 Kings chapters 15 to 22; II Kings chapters 1 to 3; II Chronicles chapter 17 to 20; and see for yourself!

Despite the answers offered, it is the typical Muslim propaganda to glom onto issues like this in their allegations against the Bible as being an incomplete book. The Bible is indeed a complete book. Since some Muslims are typically strangers to truth and reason, I've applied the very same rule to their holy book just to find out how many books are missing from the Qur'an.


Check this link and debunk everything.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

Please go to this link to read more about the whole Bible and analysis of the Canonical and Apocryphal New Testament

Scriptureshttp://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/contents.htm

Also read about the New Testament canons through the ages
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/canons.htm



Let the Muslim answer the question: Where are those books the Qur'an mentions but are NOT found in 'Allah's' book at all??

I have answered you up. Go back and read.


Versions and Revisions of the Qur'an

Another Muslim complaint against the Bible is that there are so many translations and revisions that have been necessitated by the defects of previous editions of those translations.

Okay oooooo. That’s me man.


Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
Your bible confirmed that it has grave defects. Read the preface of the RSV 1971 and I quote:

‘ The king James Version has with good reason been termed ‘the noblest monument of English prose’. Its revisers in 1881 expressd admiratin for ‘its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression… the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm…. We owe it an incalculable debt.

Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.’

Is it not rather comical that you're belly-dancing around the RSV and conveniently playing hide-and-seek with the revisions of the Qur'an? Okay, your problem is with the KJV being revised. I wonder what 'grave defects' led the translators of the Qur'an to undertake revisionist work on the Qur'an. Three English translations of the Qur'an among others by muslims that have undergone several revisions include:


Brother common be a man and stop this childish behaviour of yours. I have not laid emphasis on only RSV but from other areas too. Rad yourself pls and debunk.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html




#1. [bTranslation of the Glorious Holy Qur'an with Commentary[/b] - by Ali Ahmad Khan (Lahore, 1962); styled by the author as 'a True and Easy translation of the Glorious Qur'an', nonetheless has passed through 3 Editions after having been adjudged to be with numerous mistakes in its translations.

Can I have the missing verses and chapters in them?



#2. The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an - by Pickthall, Muhammad Marmaduke William (London, 1930); reputed to be one of the most widely used translations among Muslims, yet has undergone at least 27 Editions! One has to wonder why there are so many revisions that led to subsequent editions. Besides the fact that the Mentor publication (451 MJ1529 195) contains a few errors/omissions, many Muslim readers of this translation hold that it is not entirely free from serious mishaps, as Pickthal in some instances sacrifices the meaning of several verses at the expense of the euphemistic expression intended; while doing the opposite in other instances. Even though his translation is titled 'The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an', Pickthall notes in the foreward of his 1930 edition that the Qur'an CANNOT be translated; and that the result of his translation is NOT the glorious Qur'an!


so? Can I still have the missing verses, chapters etc?



#3. The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary - by Ali Abdullah Yusuf (Lahore, 1934-37); another extremely popular translation favoured by most Muslims, has undergone no less than 35 Editions! Many Muslims are nonetheless suspicious of this translation, holding that it is not entirely free from errors; and flaw it on the basis of his sufistic bias and UNOTHODOX views in his notes to the Qur'an (see Kidwai, A.R., 'Abdullah Yusuf Ali's Views on the Qur'anic Eschatology', Muslim World League Journal 12 (5) February 1985, pp. 14-17).


Please can you supply me the missing verses or chapters from all the editions?



There are many other English translations of the Qur'an, and I have not come across ONE that any honest Muslim scholar approves as entirely free from error in translation - not even ONE. As a matter of fact, if Pickthall was right that the Qur'an cannot be translated, it follows that any translation into any language is bound to have errors, no matter how scholarly are the translator(s). My persuasion is confirmed by the following statement:


Brother, let me help you and stop wasting your energy over what you know nothing about. The Eglish Quran is not like the Arabic Quran that was in its pure state. If you are laying claim to error, let me have the errors please or missing verses or chapters.


"Please keep in mind that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors."

This is found in this website of Islamic resources:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/qmtintro.html


Is that your own understanding? One of your friends 4 get me provided the link sometime and I had it debunked and you still went there.

Read for yourself for better understanding
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/corrections.html



Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.

There's something really laughable about this kind of reasoning. You claim that the Qur'an is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets, and you were unable to disclose the "previous" books of 'Allah' before he brought out his "last" book! Where are the Psalms, the Injil and the Torah that Muhammad claimed were sent down by 'Allah'?? Where are they?


Abegi, stop going round in circles. Scroll up and re-read my explanation.



Now, if "the original message of both the Torah and Gospel cannot be found" (same as your claim that they are 'LOST'), then WHY HAVE YOU BEEN DESPERATELY SEEKING TO "PROVE" THAT MUHAMMAD IS FOUND IN THE TORAH (DEUTERONOMY 18) AND THE GOSPEL (JOHN 14 & 16) OF THE BIBLE??

Is the message not corrupt? Why defending falsehood? Read yourself

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html



Why this display of deliberate dishonesty and double-speak on your part? Since the "Torah" and "Gospel" of the Qur'an cannot be found, then what is Muhammad doing in the OT Torah and the NT Gospels of the Bible?? If there's any substance to your claims, then your position only proves indeed that MUHAMMAD IS NOT THE PROPHET OF DEUTERONOMY 18:15 & 18!! And I've debated that in another thread, which you have not gone back to counter my claims. It is for this reason that I stayed off the roundabout argument until now that you simply continue your propagandist adventure.


Read here again

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

Also

About the Torah

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

Gospel

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc, Please visit History of man's corruption in the Bible for more details. Today, there is no one Bible!.




Any attempt to come back and quote the OT or NT will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you're towing the line of hypocrites and dishonest Muslim apologists who feed you with such self-contradictory arguments!!


Abegi. Go to the below link, you cant deceive me.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html



You can confirm my assertion by coming back to quote any verse of the Bible for Muhammad (since you cannot find him in your LOST Torah and Injil); and in doing so, we shall see how much of a stranger you are to truth and reason!!


Read up if your falsehood has blinded you in realizing the truth.


More coming.

@stimulus


You sent three posts which will be answered one after the other. Truth has come falsehood is bound to perish. Be prepared to read my detailed response to your lies especially on the missing verse and that of Khalifites.



@babs787 (and all Muslims),
Right. Here are my responses to the challenges you offered in several threads. First, let me reiterate I have nothing against Muslims (not having being one before); and my posts are offered from the perspective of my being a Christian rather than a Muslim.


You decided to change gear huh? Don’t worry, nobody says you have anything against them. You should have posted them one after the other and ask you question in the same way. But never mind, I will attend to everything God’s willing.



A. Is The Qur'an A Complete Book?

As regards the issue of the inconsistencies and incompleteness of the Qur'an that you've been pretending do not exist, here they are.

You brought up the fallacious argument that the Bible is an incomplete Book because it mentions a few other books which cannot be found in it; such as the book of Jasher, the book of Nathan the prophet, the book of Jehu, and the Acts of Uzziah. Despite an initial explanation that those books were not regarded as part of the inspired canon of Scripture, you dogmatically kept on shlepping the same weathered argument in several other threads. Let's not forget that in the initial thread, you boldly asserted that the TORAH was LOST or corrupted.


Brother it is not a fallacious argument. Check it out yourself from the papyril. Stop lying brother, it is glaring that bibles were written according to the church. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete as result of the missing books alone but as well as some missing verses. Brother, you cant deceive us here, no explanation was provided. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete based on missing books alone, but also on missing verses, chapters. Check them out in this thread, ‘is bible comple’.



If there's any substance in that kind of reasoning, then it only means that your xenophobia applies heavily in just the same manner to the Qur'an. One could argue by the very same rule, that the Qur'an is NOT a complete book because most of the books it mentions are NOT found in the holy book of 'Allah' that Muhammad gave Muslims. In just the same way you applied the rule of the so-called "missing books" to the Bible, we shall be applying the same rule to see how many "missing books" can be deduced from the Qur'an.

You didn’t apply the rules of the missing verses in some bible eg RSV, Good News bible etc



The Missing Books of the Qur'an

The following are the BOOKS the Qur'an claims Muhammad's 'Allah' sent down; and we want to know WHERE they are, and WHAT HAPPENED to them:


Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"



#1. Where are the BOOKS of Moses? || Sura 53:36
'Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses'

Brother, hope your BP is normal because I can sense that my posts annoyed you. Don’t worry, calm down, it is well. Now like I keep telling you, the Quran is not written like the bible where you have books written by different authors abi na prophet sef. The Quran contains Gospel, Injil and Psalm. You will read the stories of Moses, Abraham and David in the Quran, this goes to tell you that, their books are included in the Quran . if I say their books, I mean their stories as written in the bible and we have them in the Quran. It tells you that the Quran contains the Gospel, Injil and Psalm.



#2. Where is the Book of Abraham? || Sura 87:18-19
'And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),- The Books of Abraham and Moses.'


You have shown another level of ignorance here. You are expecting it to be arranged in the Quran in this order: book of Abraham followed by book of Moses etc, nay brother. The books contain stories about the prophets during their time and we have everything you need to know about Abraham and Moses in the Quran.

Quran 3 v 65: O people of the scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? So the Quran contains everything you need to know about them and by saying that it has included their books because the Torah contains story of Jesus and we have his story in the Quran. the Injil contains that of Moses and we have his story in the Quran too. So that answers your question.



#3. Where are the honoured books? || Sura 80:12-16
'So let him who pleases mind it. In honored books, Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes, Noble, virtuous.


like I told your sister nossycheeks, your authors have been putting you in troubles. Must they lie to you in preaching false doctrines. If you had read the Quran before posting, you would have seen that the above verses are talking about the Quran and I will give them to you for your understanding. Please tell your authors to stop deceiving you

Quran 80 v 11: nay (do not do like this); indeed it (this Quran) is an admonition.

V12: so whoever wills, let him pay attention to it.

V 13: it is in records held greatly in honour

V 14: exalted in dignity, purified

V 15: in the hands of scribes (angels)

V 16: honourable and obedient

Hope you have seen that?



#4. What 'books' are being referred to; and WHERE are they? || Sura 66:12
'And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity,
so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted
the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of,
the obedient ones.'[/color]


Must you lie brother? Truth stands from falsehood. This is the verse

Quran 66 v 12: And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be – and he was; that is Jesus, son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and she was of the pious.

The books referred to are the scriptures i.e the Injil and the Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively. Na wa for your websites or authors.



#5. Where are the 'Sacred Books' and Books of Deeds? || Sura 54:43 & 52
'Are your Unbelievers, (O Quraish), better than they? Or have ye
an immunity in the Sacred Books? - All that they do is noted in (their)
Books (of Deeds)'


Brother, calm down. The above verses quoted talk about the Quraish people when they disbelieved in the revelations of Allah. Let me post them here for you to read

Quran 54v 40: and indeed we have made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

V 41: And indeed, warnings came to the people of pharaoh through Moses and Aaron.

V 42: they belied all our signs so we seized them with a seizure of the All-Mighty, All-Capable.

V 43: Are your disbelievers (O QURAISH), better than these [nations of Noah, Lot, Salih and the people of Pharoah who were destroyed?] or have you an immunity (against our torment) in the divine scriptures?

Hope you understood, it is self explanatory?

Quran 54 v 52: And everything they have done is noted in their records of deeds.

Everybody is having his/her records of actions/deeds with God which will be opened to him/her on that day. So you can see that your authors are liars.



#6. Where are the mystic Books, babs787? || Sura 26:196
'Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.'


I pity your deluded authors that lied in order to deceive you. This is what we have brother.

Quran 26 v 196: And verily, it (the Quran and its revelation to prophet Muhammed (saw) is announced in the scriptures (i.e torah and the Gospel) of former people.

Hope you understood? Former people are the people given the scriptures to. I.e people of Moses with the Torah and that of Jesus with the Gospel.



#7. Where are the "previous books"? || Sura 20:133
'And they say: Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not
there come to them a clear evidence of what is in the previous books?'


Quran 20 v 133: They say, ‘why does he not bring us a sign (proof) from his Lord’? has there not come to them the proof of that which is written in the former papers (scriptures) i.e the Torah and the Gospel about the coming of the prophet Muhammed (saw)?

Understood?



#8. What is the Book; and where is it today?? || Sura 3:48
'And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'


Quran 3 v 48: and Allah will teach him (jesus) the Book (i.e Sunnah, the faultless speech of the prophets, wisdoms) and the Torah and the Gospel.

Understood?



#9. Where is the Mother of the book, babs787? || Sura 13:39
'Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.'


Quran 13 v 39: Allah blots out what He wills, and confirms n what He wills. And with Him is the Mother of the Book (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfiz).

Mother of the book used here is the Quran which is the last revelation.




#10. Where are "His Books", and why are they NOT in the Qur'an?
Sura 4:136 - 'O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.'
(see also Sura 2:285)


Brother I have answered up. His books are the Torah, injil, and the Quran. The stories of the prophets in the Quran tells that their books have been included. The Torah contains story of Moses and Israel and you have it in the Quran too. So hope you are ok with that?




#11. 'The Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation - WHERE are they?? || Sura 5:68
'Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.'


Same as above. Maybe you are expecting separate chapters for them in the Quran just like the bible.



Now a few questions:

In regards to Q. 4:136 (see #10 above), why was Muhammad's 'Allah' asking people to believe in HIS BOOKS if it is true that those books are already LOST? If nobody knows their whereabouts because they are lost, what do Muslims today claim about Sura 4:136 - is it one of the abrogated verses as well? And if that verse was referring to the Bible, why is 'Allah' asking people to believe in the same Books of the Bible that Muslims today attack with unbridled calumny?


Brother, you are just going in circles. Hiding the truth which you yourself has seen. I have provided detailed evidence to the incompleteness of the bible.

As for the Torah,

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

As for the Gospel

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc

Quran 5:13: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

Quran 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."



Where are "the Law, the Gospel, and ALL the revelation" (Q. 5:68 ) that the Qur'an wants us to stand fast by; and which Muslims now claim have been LOST? Are "ALL the Revelations" of 'Allah' LOST as well? Why was Muhammad's 'Allah' not able to keep or preserve what he claimed came from him; and yet now asks "People of the Book" to believe in what Muslims claim are LOST, according to you, babs787?? Why was 'Allah' asking people to believe in ALL the revelations that are LOST if he already knew that they were non-existent in Muhammad's day??

Same as above.



Further, if Muslims are honest at all, since they claim that the TORAH and INJIL are LOST, why do they desperately sweat to "prove" that Muhammad is in the TORAH and INJIL of the Bible that they attack? Muslim apologists often try to "prove" that Muhammad was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18 and John 14 & 16. Why the dishonest claim that they are 'lost', and then come back quoting those same books of the Bible?


Are you are not honest with yourself? It has been read that your bible is corrupt and some chapters are missing. Bibles were written according to church. Read up for explanation.

Quran 7:157 : "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."



Since the above books (plural - BOOKS) are NOT found in the Qur'an itself, it only establishes the fact that the Qur'an is an INCOMPLETE book in just the same way Muslims allege against the Bible. Only a dishonest and deliberately deceitful person will apply a certain rule for castigating others, but cries foul when the same rule is applied to his own camp. It is this die-hard tendency of calculated deceit and double-speak that got me thinking and served as one of the many issues that made me refuse to be a Muslim even though I was raised in a large Muslim family.


Brother stop deceiving yourself. I have answered you, they are there and part of the Quran as well.

Quran 87 v 13: verily, this Quran is the Word that separates the truth from falsehood and commands strict laws for mankind to cut the roots of evil.






Others will follow, stay glued.

Truth has come, falsehood is bound to perish.

@stimulus


@oyb,Take style answer this question first:

Quote from: pilgrim.1 on May 07, 2007, 12:45 AMMuhammad certainly felt the pressure to authenticate prophethood; and when you consider Sura 4.153, you honestly have to ask yourself where this question was ever asked by the Jews in Moses' day: "They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly.

"Where did the Jews ever ask a greater thing of Moses aforetime?



You know your problem is that it wasn’t written in your bible. It has been confirmed that your bible is incomplete so stop going in circles.

Quran 4 v 153: the people of the scripture ask you to cause a book to descend upon them from heaven. Indeed they asked Moses for even greater than that, when they were struck with thunderclap and lightning for their wickedness. Then they worshipped the calf even after clear proofs, evidences and signs had come to them. Even so we forgave them. And we gave Moses a clear proof of authority.


Quran 2 v 55: And remember when you said, ‘o Moses! We shall never believe in you until we see Allah plainly;. But you were seized with a thunderbolt (lightning) while you were looking.



@davidylan

You can see yourself now . You have been corrected here again. I could remember when you were corrected by Shahan and here you still showed that you never know anything from the bible only to be corrected by your brother.

If all the aforementioned are not prophets, please who are they?

@stimulus

Am not surprised at your response to the questions. Christians will always show their typical way of avoiding issues. Dont forget that you still have three questions to be answered in the thread, 'was jesus crucified'. Common be a man, answer those questions and dont divert topc as you are well known for that. If you have any question, feel free go create another thread and I will meet you there. So man, answer those questions and stop going in circles.




@pataki

I thought you would have come with your organogam


John 10:30 -I and my Father are one.


If the above statemnt qualifies jesus to be God, what of the verse below

John 17 v 21: that they (the disciples) all may be one, as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us,

It is clear here that the statement says God and Jesus are one, but also that the disciples are one in Jesus and God, as they all ar like Jesus also in God. If Gid, jesus and the Holy Ghost form one unit of Trinity, then with the disciples included they should form a God of fifteeen.

@nossycheeks


Thumbs up for lifting everything from there. But you should have posted them one after the other and I explain them to you. If you care, you can bring them one after the other and we treat them together but if you cant, check this link for detailed response to your lies as being put by silas, chowdry etc.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

Stay cool

Truth has come, falsehood is bound to perish