₦airaland Forum

@babyosis


Truth stands out from falsehood. This thread will now be for biblical contradictions since nossycheeks has opened one for quran too. So no diversion as you normally do when you have nothing to say. You have even showed it in your last post.

@nossycheeks,

I will respond your post soon.

Cheers

@nossycheeks


Well, go on and continue your expedition, by the time I stir your own bees, your buttocks cannot contain the stings. When you deride us, other muslims laugh but a single thread, and they wept. A word is enough for the wise. Argue on what you know and do not thread on where you do not have the knowledge.

Empty barrel . I am ready and looking forward to that. Is that a threat? . Dont worry, I am threading where I have little knowledge and you will add to my knowledge



@somze

While u are at it why don't we talk about the contradictions in the Koran.
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html


Hope you are not trying to divert the topic.

This is the exact thing I told some of your folks that they are free to lift from anywhere that they should be rest assured that they would be refuted.

It seems you are just from another planet. If you have been here and reading posts, you would have read it that your sister babyosis went to her authors of the same site you posted. Her authors in the like of silas, chowdry etc failed her and kept going round in circles without saying anything reasonable. Again one of your sisters went there again trying to provide explanation to what cannot be explained. You also went there, lifted from there. I told babyosis then that my own 101 was different from the replied to by her authors. I still have others with which will be served you soon.

As for the link you posted, here is the link containing detailed response to your questions as against those edited by your authors.

Here is your link
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html


Here is my detailed response
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

So when you are through with those, call on me.


As for pilgrim, I will supply her the contradictions different from the above and she will have to explain them to me because I am here to learn .

Truth has come, falsehood is bound to perish.

Peace

@firdaus4us

Salam brother, welcome once again.

Maa Salam

@firdaus4us

Salam brother, longest time. May Allah be pleased with you as you continue with the Dawah.


@all christian apologists claiming that Jesus is God in the likes of pilgrim, stimulus, davidylan, pataki, babyosis, nossycheeks etc

When you finish answering my brother's question, you will tell me who

1.  Jesus prayed to at gethsemane

2.  Jesus  shouted to on the cross that 'my God my God, why has thou forsaken me'

3.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

4.
If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

5.
If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

6.
If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7.
Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal". Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?


8.
If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

9.
Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

10
.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

11.
.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?


12
.Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses ) a god to Pharaoh"?


When you do the above, others will follow.

Thank you

Peace.

@noisycheeks

It seems you are just from another planet. Here you are shouting that muslims have been deriding jesus, let me have where we have been doing so and I will back it with evidence that it hasnt been what you have been thinking. You called all your falsehood 'deriding Jesus'.

You are claiming that we have been doing that, go to the beginning of the religious threads and read what your folks posted. Without even going there, compare posts, count th number of posts and threads which christian have opened and compare with that of Muslims. Nobody challenged your folks when you have been saying all sort of defamatory things about my faith and prophet but when you are being corned and are just barking, going round in circles without any proof, you changed the tune to 'muslims are deriding your faith'. You may shout from now till tomorrow, the fact remains, christianity is falsehood and it must be exposed.

I dont respect anybody that doesnt respect my religion.

What salvation are you referring to? Is it that one promised by Paul to lazy christians like you that you should just believe and you will be saved?


Good day

@pilgrim

Can you defend falsehood? I have posted enough explanations for you in this thread "Is the bible complete" , read my post and use that in answering your questions. You can imagine her asking me questions when it has become glaring that her bible is incomplete.


You have been saying that you would be supplying the missing verses from the Quran getting to a week, if you dont have anything, it will be better for your to admit your falsehood and lets move on or maybe you are waiting for the Quran mentioned by specie in her post about the Quran to watch out for.


Truth has come, falsehood is bound to perish.

@babyosis


I weep for your soul. Did I complain to you in the first place? Are you not the one that extended handshake when you felt that your falsehood has been exposed and you kept apologising? Never mind, you will explain them to me one after the other. Apart from the 101 posted then, I have another list with me here which will be served you one after the other.





@Pilgrim


I will be serving them to you one after the other and we will see who will run or beat about the bush


Stay glued.

@pilgrim & stimulus

Are you both saying that Jesus is God?

Let me have your response and my questions from your bible will follow


Peace.

@pilgrim


Thanks for the post. I want you to know that the missing verses are more than those listed below hence my putting etc at the end of question f. But at the same time, the few listed and your response to them will be attended to one after the other. I will also be giving you some links to the canons of the bible and why some christians are accepting Islam with regards to the missing books, verses, chapters etc of the bible. I want to take your time to read and when you are through, you may get back at me if you so wish but the truth is that I will not move ahead with this thread because truth has been made known. I am not here to preach to you but whoever sees and accept the truth, does so for his own soul and whoever rejects the truth, does so at his/her own peril.





Do you even read the lettered subscript references of bibles ( they are mostly on all the page)? All i did was bring out my bible (which by the way has four versions in it) and i found the answers to your question. I'm guessing you just picked those up from a site without further research.

Of course I do, and thats the more reason I posed the verses at you. Going through the lettered subscript reference, one will read that some verses have been expunged from the original manuscript. Lets read on


a.Mathew 17 v 21
a)because the verse is omitted in many of the ancient manuscript.

If the verse is omitted in many ancient manuscript as being put,then where did King James Version get its own verse



(b) mark 11 v 26
b) Many ancient manuscripts add verse 26, ALL include this in matthew 6:15

If many ancient manuscripts add verse 26, where are they not included in the bible of nowadays?


(c) acts 8 v 37
c) Many ancient manuscripts omit verse 37 wholly or in part.


If ancients manuscripts omitted verse 37, where did King James Version get its own verse and was it included since ancient manuscripts do not have it?



d) YOU REPEATED QUESTION A.

Oh, am sorry for that.


(e) Mathew 21 v 44
e) Some manuscript do not have vs 44

If some manuscripts do not have the verse, where did KJV  get its own from?



(f) Mathew 23 v 14 etc
f) Some manuscript skip some add.

Why did some manuscripts skip some? Why did KJV  has the verse while others do not?



One thing with putting the bible up is that a whole lot of different reliable manuscripts are used. If something is omitted, depending on the number of the manuscripts were omissions exist these decisions are taken, i think.


If that is the case, do we say KJV  is the most reliable out of them all because most churches use the KJV. Besides, it contains most of the missing verses.



One thing you notice is that whether present or not, the message is not corrupted and fundamentals in christianity are not affected.

It may not have affected christianity but why must a book of God contain missing verses? The message is corrupted:

There existed many different Bibles during the time of the Roman Emperor, Constantine, which were widely believed in by different Christian sects in the year 312.  In other words, during the first 3 centuries of "Christianity" (300 years), many different canons with 100s of books/gospels combined existed!  That is a lot of canons, a lot of books/gospels, and a lot of time (300 years) of different Christian religions existed.   Also, Constantine's own "unified canon or bible" got lost and only small portions of it were found!  So what we have today from "Bible(s)" are not even Constantine's books.

Please go to this link to read more about the whole Bible and analysis of the Canonical and Apocryphal New Testament

Scriptureshttp://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/contents.htm


Also read about the New Testament canons through the ages
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/canons.htm

There are lots of canons, each written according to the church thus:

Anglican Church: The canon of the Anglican falls between the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.


Armenian Church: The noteworthy features of the Armenian version of the Bible was the inclusion of certain books that elsewhere was regarded as apocryphal. The Old Testament included the History of Joseph and Asenath and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the New Testament included the Epistle of Corinthians to Paul and a Third Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians.

Coptic Church: Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.


Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church: This Church has the largest Bible of all, and and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader" according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.


Greek Orthodox Church: The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.

Protestant Church: Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books (Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.


Roman Catholic Church: The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.


Syriac Church: Syriac Churches used the Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian, and was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Peshitta. Peshitta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament. This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Peshitta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (431 CE) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.

Going through the above, one wonders which is following the original manuscript. The above tells that the original has been lost or corrupted.


Go through this link for the new testament canons through the ages
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/EXHIBITAv2.htm


While doing that, please go to the link below for the complete list of new testament papyril

http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/ExhibitE.htm



Please look up on papyrus (ancient manuscripts)look up on it)

I have given you enough explanations up and some links for proof, check on them and get back at me if you so wish.


Peace and stay blessed.

Should we treat them one after the other?

@pilgrim

@pilgrim


You have asked questions related to those verses before, not so? Okay, what you don't know, I will deal with about them in the small way I possibly can.

Yes I have but brought them up again because you refused admitting the fact that its imcomplete


NB.

Let me be clear about this: your argument that the Bible is not complete is borne out of the idea that:

(a) it makes reference to some books which are not in the Bible?

(b) some versions (like the KJV) includes the verses that some others do not?

Is it on those premise you argue that the Bible is not complete?


Those above and some other evidence too which are not listed by you.

Thanks.

@pilgrim


Before going into your questions, I want you to provide these verses from other versions apart from KJV to show the completeness of the bible. If you can provide them, I will agree that the bible is complete from that angle.


a.Mathew 17 v 21
(b) mark 11 v 26
(c) acts 8 v 37
(d) Mathew 17 v 21
(e) Mathew 21 v 44
(f) Mathew 23 v 14 etc


Thanks

@pilgrim


babs787,

Like I said, it would not be surprising if you came back with yet more lack of understanding. I started nothing other than pointing out what up until now you have failed to see. It is illiterate for anyone to offer just one choice with the word "PREFER" - and if you still lack an understanding in simple use of words, you make my point.


Yes I am here again o to show another lack of understanding.

@pilgrim


No worries, but by your response I am now more than convinced that you really have a problem with understanding issues.

Never mind, you have just started, we will know who doesnt understand issues. You know that there are threads for religious issues, we will know from there when issues are being backed with verses from the books.


He asked if you would like to be called servant and you have every right to tell him if you would not like to be called same and what you would like to be called if you dont want the above.

You understand issues just like your folks too

@babyosis


Biko,who has the time to read a dessertation written in black and red?
*yawn*
foaming at the mouth and producing no descernable sounds is called epilepsy.
Babs keep up the "good" works but don't get a stroke in the process.
From what I see your BP must have tripled in the last few months.
Calm down,if you have the truth,you don't have to try so hard.


Call me any name you feel like. You have been known to be that uncouth. You even showed your manners by claiming that Yorubas are dirty and even cursed Awolowo etc.

You may shout from now till tomorrow, the fact remains, nothing moves babs. You are extending handshake when your folks are still continuing in their mischief.

Now, if you care to know, if I have to meet every nairalanders, after my muslim brothers and sisters, the next set will be atheists in the like of Nferyn and KAG, I like them and respect them so much. They have show high level of intelligence and maturity. Nferyn posted a rejoinder that we have been continuously disrepecting their belief as written in our books and his post moved me.He is 100% right. I have some verses that talk about athiest but want them to know that I didnt write it myself and why apology hasnt come may be probably due to the fact that, most threads have been on Muslim-christian debate etc. He went to the extent of posting two sites on how to convert and how not to convert an atheist. When I have time, I will go over them and get back at them, asking them some questions. Though we may have different belief but the fact remains, we can still learn from each other. I respect them for their maturity especially KAG who I took for a male until she updated her profile. Am not saying they shouldnt attack my faith but just telling them my mind. I so much love reading their posts. There are some christians that babs will never raise an eyebrow to their post. They earn my respect as a result of the way they have handled every situation. It includes the likes of Shahan, backslider and some that are still here.


Back to you babyosis, like I said, you may give babs any names you feel like but babs will never stop exposing your falsehood. Whats the need of handshake when your folks never stopped?

You know what, I have known you to be a liar and has never taken you seriously for one day. I could remember when Shahan invited me to her thread, I responded and stopped any debate thereafter. Despite the fact that you apologised and said that you would never do same again, you still went ahead after having known that babs has stopped it.

When I saw your thread on the extension of handshake, I didnt want to post anything there because when I read your post, I found out that you said lot of things concerning Islam having forgotten whoever is suing for peace must be neutral regardless of your faith, belief, etc. My charming sister called my attention and I told her that I wouldnt be posting anything that aside what babyosis said, she should read the post od davidylan and batu too but she told me to ignore them and post whatever I have to hence my posting only that one.

You still went ahead with your so called apology. When you extended the handshake to me, I stopped posting anything concerning christianity on Nairaland ( check my posts thereafter for confirmation). I stopped posting anything on your belief and went to sports thread. But pilgrim, stimulus and jeshua thought that I ran from them not knowing that darkness can never overcome light.

It will be noted that christians are the largest posters on religious threads, followed by atheists and muslims occupying the least position. Only you cannot extend handshake to me while others continue and expect me to stop. It is either you stop your handshake and let the threads continue or vice versa. He that wants to do equity must come with clean hands.

You cannot be expecting any respect when you yourself do not respect other's belief. Babs believe in equity, it is either you take it or you leave it.



@davidlyan


Thanks for carefully showing the lies in your bible as against the Al-Taqiyah you have been saying all these while. Let me go into your post one after the other despite the fact that you muddled them up. I also noticed that you picked some and ignored some.


1. In your response to my claim, I want to ask you, is sacrifice the same as anoining? The Lord told him to tell him he wanted to sacrifice while he went there to anoint.

Now if for example you are a native of another community in which no other person apart from the indigene of that community is allowed into another and you wants to go and give somebody something in that community. Will you lie to them that you are from theie community or not?


2.

I want you to explain the below verse
7 But if the truth of [b]God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? [/b]


What is your understanding of the above verse as said by Paul? Didnt he say that he lied in preaching his gospel?

3.
18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, [b]whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.[/b]

With regards to the above post, are you saying that, we can preach God's word through false motives?



4.'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'


23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."


1 Kings 22v23: So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yo[/b]urs. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

6. 2 Chronicles 18v21-22:I will go and [b]be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'




Thanks for accusing the arch enemy of islam of lying! Let us look at this scripture again, if you bothered to read the whole thing instead of jumping at the verses where the word "liar" is mentioned, it should be easy to understand. The crux of the whole matter hangs on verse 1. The argument betweent the early apostles after the pentecost was whether salvation belonged ONLY to the jews or could be extended to the gentiles hence Paul's question in verse 1.
Now take a look at some other verses from the same chapter:


It is very glaring who the real liar has been. Paul lied in other to win them.


On the issue of lying spirits, would you accuse God of murder since he created everyone including armed robbers, murderers and rapists?
God tests us in several different means, the same God who "sent" the lying spirit also sent a true prophet to warn king Ahab of the dangers of going to battle but of course a man destined for destruction would never heed the truth even if it hit him smack in the face. the same applies to you.


Meaning that God allowed prophets to lie in other to entice some people!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greatest Al-Taqiyah in the biblical history and brother, what of Abraham, you didnt say anything on that too?






@pilgrim

It has been established that your bible is corrupt and imcomplete. So no hide and seek.

@pilgrim


Called 'servant of God' or what else?? What are the other options, if any?

Perhaps it would help for posters to be forthcoming with broad perspectives before they 'click' to post a topic.

You dont need to ask for his options but you tell us which you prefer. No quarrel

Thanks

@stimulus

Answers have been offered in as polite a manner as can be. We're all grown-ups dealing with issues; and we can discern what babs787 is up to with his games. It is not answers he's seeking; and if you doubt this, just wait: it's only a matter of time before you see it.

You are perfectly correct. Answers have been provided.

If you are saying the bible is complete and without going to the number of books in the protestants and catholics bible, without making reference to Encyclopedia Britannica about the removal of some books, apocryphal books etc
, tell me why these verses are not in some bibles apart from KJV.


a.Mathew 17 v 21 (b) mark 11 v 26 (c) acts 8 v 37 (d) Mathew 17 v 21 (e) Mathew 21 v 44 (f) Mathew 23 v 14 etc


Thanks

@festacson


Thanks for the post anyway but will like to correct your impression about blacks not equal to white. I think you are well aware of a place called Mecca to mention but just only one. If blacks are not equal to other colours, then they would have created their own separate place of worship but there, people mingle together regardless of colour, race, ehtnicity etc. Muslims are not interested in your outlook as long as you are a muslim. Hope I have communicated.

Cheers.

@pilgrim


@babs787,

We all know that even if the Jews sued for peace, MUSLIMS will NEVER let them be!! That is the fundamental "prophecy" given by Muhammad as part of the tenets of ISLAM!!


Really? You need to give me the origin of Arab-Muslim conflict. And if muslims hate jew to such extent and they aware too, why did some jews accepted Islam during propet's time?

          Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:

                     The last hour would not come unless
                                 
     the Muslims will fight against the Jews  and the Muslims would kill them

      until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say:

  Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;

                      but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

                                                            ---  [Sahih Muslim Book 041, #6985]

Can there be a smoke without fire? So the issue in Palestine where civilians are being killed for throwing pellets is a sure proof that jews are peaceful



Pretending that you don't understand that Hadith is to play the usual AL-TAQIYYA that is only too characteristic of Islamic reasoning!!

Never mind, I have served you brother lots of verses on Al-taqiyya from your bible, you only need to read and stop pointing fingers at muslims. What goes round, comes around. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Tit for Tat





@davidylan


You forgot that the same hezbollah used rockets with ball bearings on Isreali kindergarten schools? Or is that part of the islamic manipulation of the truth to suit their agenda? You forget the suicide bombers?
You forget that had the weapons been on the other side Isreal would long have ceased to exist?
Oh, I thought you know history very well. Can you please tell me the reason for using rockets on Israel.



What about Saddam who used chemical gases on his own people? The islamic world only seems to notice the sins of the isrealis never theirs! Hypocrites!


1. What of charles Taylor, he is a christian like you. Throughout his tenure as president, unleashed on his people different types of torture like denying them water supply,. light, schooling, education, health care delivery, employment, lesure. To worsen the situation, two Nigerian Journalist had their hands amputated, many were killed. He extended his reign of terror to Siera Leone. Yte he has not been referred as terrorist let alone being convicted. Have you heard anything about him in Hague?


2. An American Timothy Mc Veigh a christian had the city of Oklahoma destroyed with an explosive.

Are ok, or you need more?


Peace.

@Stimulus

I'm already used to your accusations, and that won't stop me telling the truth. It's not such a bother that when you can't reason, then you go about with your usual accusative slobber that people are lying. Mind you, I'm not the one practising the religion of al-taqiyya; and you can continue demonstrating who follows that religion on the Forum.

Am still asking you professor, what did I complain to you? You have been mentioning Al-taqiyyah since and accusing muslim of same but will want you to tell me the meaning of the verses below.

In Islam lying is allowed in some cases:

1  Lying to the enemy during war (war is deciet).

2-  Not telling the complete Truth if you're trying to reconcile between two people when asked what one said about another during hostile times.  In other words, you don't have to narrate the foul words that one said; just narrate the main point.

3-  When one is under a threat or danger.

Exodus 20 v 16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.  

Many Jews and Christians re-read or reinterpret this verse as "Thou shalt not lie."  However, we are about to see how GOD Almighty supposedly planned out for Samuel how to lie to Saul:

1 Samuel 16:1-131

The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
2 But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me." The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.'
3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate."
4 Samuel did what the LORD said. When he arrived at Bethlehem, the elders of the town trembled when they met him. They asked, "Do you come in peace?"
5 Samuel replied, "Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me." Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.
6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD's anointed stands here before the LORD."
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
8 Then Jesse called Abinadab and had him pass in front of Samuel. But Samuel said, "The LORD has not chosen this one either."
9 Jesse then had Shammah pass by, but Samuel said, "Nor has the LORD chosen this one."
10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, "The LORD has not chosen these."
11 So he asked Jesse, "Are these all the sons you have?" "There is still the youngest," Jesse answered, "but he is tending the sheep." Samuel said, "Send for him; we will not sit down until he arrives."
12 So he sent and had him brought in. He was ruddy, with a fine appearance and handsome features. Then the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one."
13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.


So as we clearly see, GOD Almighty commanded Samuel to LIE and say that he came to sacrifice for the LORD, when in reality he came to anoint David.


2. Paul permitted lying in Romans 3v1-8 & Philippians 1v15-18:

Romans 3v1-81

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. 3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.
5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath?
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
8 and why not, Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.

Paul here is admitting that he lied or that he might resort to lying for the sake of spreading GOD Almighty's Truth.  This is demonstrated in the following verses from Paul:

3. Philippians 1:15-18

15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.
16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.
17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.
18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

So if one practices sodomy in Nigeria and offers his rear end for sexual sale to be politically correct to the society that he is in, or one does illegal sex with the girls in town and goes to the bars and get drunk with the people, to get the attention of those people that he is living among so that he can preach to them whatever he wants to preach, then according to Paul, these "false motives" are still justified!  To Paul, the end literally justifies the means!


4. 1 Kings 22:21-23

21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I[b] will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets[/b],' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

GOD Almighty gave the spirit the green light to go and cause lying.  And yet they tell us: "thou shalt not lie"?

Genesis 13v18:  Abraham lied and told the Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister because he feared that Pharaoh would kill him in order to marry his wife. The Pharaoh does indeed desire Sarah for his wife, but becomes enraged that Abraham lied to him about his relation to her

So are in you justified attacking Islam or not.Abraham was under a threat/danger and had no choice but to lie.  


5. 1 Kings 22v23: So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

6. 2 Chronicles 18v21-22:I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'



It's not such a bother that when you can't reason

I know that you have just started, you will still go the way of your predecessors. I don’t give a damn about what you may be saying about babs as far as babs is saying the truth. Mind you, you cant use any dubious or childish means in putting babs off from religious threads. So go on with your accusations.



If you had no complaints, what was your whining about in this line:QuoteYou brought out threads where Muslims condemned christianIf you failed to understand simple statements, does it make you any wiser or happier to come back with this typically, rascally accusation for what your intelligence was unable to measure up to?


It is now glaring who never understands statement Was my above post not in response to your biased post, accusing Muslims of what your folks have been doing? My post above is in response to your biased post just some of your brothers have been doing. You listed threads on Christianity but never listed same on Islam He that wants to do equity must come with clean hands .



Wait until babyosisi hears reads this second allegation and then confirm if she mailed me anything about any websites.Besides, it is hilarious to read how you're craftily trying to dribble away from this issue. I neither mentioned babyosisi here; nor made any allusion to your lifting articles from other websites here. In the threads concerned, I mentioned them there, and all you have said so far to all those queries are terse conciliatory statements.


Me dribbling away. Babs is here for debate and what questions have I dribbled from? If we are to talk of an escapist, you have been the one, you have ignored my three questions in the thread ‘was jesus crucified’ and when you finally answer,you and your folks will answer that of misright too. You are free to lift from threads just as your folks have been doing.




The issue here is not about LIFTING articles from websites, so your sob-stories here are just dribbling away from the core of my rejoinder to specie's post. The issues for debunking the idea that Muhammad was not the Prophet of Deut. 18 are still there; and I left a challenge that we should all be able to think for ourselves. To this end, I delineated what I had from my personal study, strongly discharging the otiose idea that some silly criteria as marriage and occupation should stand the test at all. If you're not satisfied, please give me the particular website where I "LIFTED" my article from; or the one you're so convinced that babayosisi mailed me!


Brother, I told you to give me verses that the word ‘brethren’ are used for jews and if you cant, you are on your own if you can only give me just one similarity out of like 6 that I gave to you. You are even claiming that Jesus saw God? Isnt that a contradictory statement? God jesus on earth seeing God Jesus in heaven. Don’t worry, when the time comes, questions will be served you on trinity.


The issue here in this thread has not been about plagiarizing articles from websites (which is what you often do).

The pot calling the kettle black. For your understanding, websites are for updating knowledge. I have my own notes on Christianity and Islam, so as I do say, you are free to lift from there be rest assured that questions will equally be served you soon on some of your belief. Its your job to refute anything being said on Christianity just like I have been doing with Islam. So stop crying like a coward and face the reality.



Rather, my challenge to specie was:     "to call her attention to the lopsided view of her having missed the fact that      Muslims are also guilty of the same thing as she attempted to cast here.""Guilty of the same thing" in the sense of:      Which one of the following are you assuring us have not been started by      a muslim in order to insult Christianity?


Did you read your response to her post. View it herehttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-51734.0.html

You listed three sites but ignored those threads and posts where your folks have done and still doing same to my religion and prophet.



Great to read about your concilatory statement again. However, babs787, I have a brain and can reason for myself - and that's what my posts are all about. Thanks for the offer for lifting articles from websites; what is so repugnant is to dress them here and there and pretend that they are your own!


See coward . How many of my questions have you refuted? Didn’t you run away from the three questions on the crucifixion of Jesus. How many muslims have complained about lifting from threads by your folks, Islam is a religion of proof, bring anything from sites or your brain and be rest assured that no muslim will accuse you of lifting from anywhere but will attend to your question. Typical escapist, no be today, e don tay



Where did the Lord Jesus Christ order the killing of 'apostates' for converting to other religions as Muhammad ordered Muslims to do? What is Islam so afraid of that it is no loonger secret that Muslims murder not only so-called 'apostates' for leaving Islam altogether; but they can go about murdering non-Muslims under any excuse?


So you haven’t come across that as being said by your God. Read below pls:

Deuteronomy 13v6-9: If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."



Deuteronomy 17v3-5: And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."


2 Chronicles 15v13: All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.


Romans 1v20-32:

20.   For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  
23.  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24.  Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26.  Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28.  Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29.  They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30.  slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;  
31.  they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32.  Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

If you are not satisfied, let me have your response from the brother that reasons a lot  .



How many Christians have been killed for simply converting from Islam? If Islam has nothing to hide, why are Christians still being persecuted and murdered in Islamic countries like Afghanistan for no other crime than that those people are Christians?


Read my story up in response to babyosis. Have you asked yourself why muslims are being persecuted and killed in some Christian state? Why is the continuous killing of muslims by jews and bush in Palestine?



Muslims are tolerated anywhere they go; they have mosques in the Western countries that they refer to as the Shaitan. However, in the Islamic countries of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Christians and Jews do not have the same freedom to practise their faith without threats from Muslims, most of which result in the murder of non-Muslims.


If Christians are not allowed, what is the meaning of Jiziah and who do Christians pay and where do they pay such taxes to?



These are the issues that are continually being challenged, and that is why Muslims are only dribbling round with slobber accusations at non-Muslims for the fact that these debates are stripping the facade of Islam. The mask will continually be stripped off; and like it or not, even Muslim observers themselves cannot deny that many Muslims are turning to Jesus Christ for salvation without the threat of the sword.


Christian are turning to Islam the same way muslims are turning. So you have nothing to say here. Nairaland is just like another world. Have meeting up to  expectations as regards to the comparison of the two books and other issues.





Babyosis

Babs,you have a problem that no one else can solve but Christ and meds.
That is the problem of being somewhat of a delusional megalomaniac.
I neither have the time to reasearch on your recent stories of pastors who became Muslims nor your unfounded allegations about Bishop Idahosa.


You called my stories lie? Never mind may it not be too long in realizing the truth. Ask people they will tell you about him, he started this demonic magic called miracles before  T.B Joshua and Oyakhilome of synagogue and Christ embassy church respectively. Do create time and get back at me, Islam is a religion of proof. As for your name calling, I told you I am not interested in a situation where you extend handshake to me in one thread and insult me in another thread. You are extending handshake to babs and brother bellotti when your folks are busy continuing with their mischief. You better take back your handshake cos I don’t need it. Your handshake will only be accepted only if your folks stop their madness but if they don’t, the thread continues, babs is not moved by whatever you say but be rest assured that the same judgment will be meted to you.



I am more interested on the 6 million muslims yearly in Africa alone who turn away from falsehood unto the saving grace o Christ.
The countless Mullahs and Islamic clerics in Nigeria and beyond who realise that they are in a rot and open up their hearts to the gospel.


What gospel are you referring to? That of Mathew, john, luke, acts, revelation etc? baby open your eyes and stop being deceived. It has been proven that your bible is an incomplete book, your book is not 100% word of God, most of your doctrines have been debunked. Do I need say anymore.



I was in Kaduna during a massive crusade in the nineties,uncountable Muslims surrendered to Christ,bringing their charms and amulets to be burned.
This is not a popularity contest,if Islam is not afraid,it should allow open air crusades and Christian TV on Muslim lands and I assure you there would be no Muslims left in no time.
Darkness always gives way to light.


You want to exchange falsehood with truth, never. How many of your doctrines, claims have been refuted by muslims and non muslims alike? You posted a website sometime about seeing Jesus in a dream which was rebutted by babs through Allah. Is that picture really that of Jesus? If Christians are not in Islamic states, what of taxes being paid by them? Na wa o. Lying to deceive people.



The mere fact that satellite TV brings them in droves to Christ is a testament to his ability to deliver even though many are secret Christians for fear of death but Jesus knows who they are and have written their names in the lamb's book of life.


Who is the lamb, jesus huh? So God Jesus turned to lamb? I even read of beast , lions with seven heads in heaven. Soon we will shed light on the lamb of God as being put in the book of revelation if Jesus was really the lamb of God. Sacrificial lamb that shouted to himself on the cross, prayed to himself when confronted with death.




Anyone is free to leave Christianity,it does not change anything,the gospel has no compulsion and no knife attached to strike off heads.

Oh no. you people will never stop amusing me. So you have not heard stories of born against Christians denying and killing their children for accepting Islam. If you are ready, I will link you up with a lady in Kwara polytechnic. She was a friend to the deceased called mariam. Mariam was a Christian but never practiced islam up to 6 months before his parent killed him. when she accepted Islam in ilorin, she prayed and was very righteous more than some muslims in Kwara polytechnic as if she had known that she wouldn’t live long. If she had known, she wouldn’t have gone home. When she left for home and her parent learnt that she accepted islam, they beat her to death and funny enough till her death, the word ‘La ilaha Ilalahu was in her mouth. Am very sure if it was a muslim, the world would have heard. If you need the lady’s contact, I can supply you, you try talking to her parents and thank God you are a Christian too.



Your allegations on attempted murders are just that,allegations.
You and I have seen proof of the peace in Islam while allahu akhbar is chanted, You may derive pleasure from beating around the bush,it doesn't take a Christian to know who the empty vessels on this forum are.


Beating around the bush. Why did you sue for peace in the first place? It is very glaring who has been beating about the bush, did I beat about the bush on your incomplete bible or on your bible not being 100% word of God, did I beat about on 2nd timothy 3 v 16. sister, truth stands out from falsehood.



Cheers.

@all

the religious threads has resumed with immediate effect. So christians are free to post anything.


@Jesuah


don't think you actually read what I wrote, you said you have tried the two Religions but if you really followed my write up, you will see that I told you about Christianity as a religion which you and I have tried and discovered the same vacuum but i also told you another christ-like Life- Jesus said; "I have come that they might have life and life abundantly". he didnt come to offer a religion like Islam and every other religions but Life.


So if he didn’t come with religion as you said above, why is it that one must be a Christian before being saved?



You also said Pastors are confused about salvation, I don't actuallly think I know what you are trying to say. The Bible is very clear about salvation and if you feel confused then why don't you ask sincerely with a heart that wants to know the truth. Atleast the Quran told you ask from the "people of the book" if you were confused.


Where did you see that we should ask people of the book when we are confused. Let me have the verse please



just like you have Imams saying things contrary to the hermeneutics of the Quran so do you have people who may not understand what they are talking about. but you quoted, John 3:15-18, Jesus said those words to some one who thought like you he had tried Christ not knowing he only tried a religion. "The Drum beaters only announces the Masquerade but they are not the MAsquerade it self.

I have tried both brother and not only the two religion but other religions too.



There is no place where the Bible says "believe and be baptized to enter "PARADISE". Maybe you need to give chapter and verse. When the bible speaks of believe and be baptized, do you know into what the baptism entails? To you you think just dipping in water but the bible teaches that baptizing them into the name of Jesus Christ. The water doesnt save anybody, maybe you have beeen baptized before too, you only took a bath. Because when we are baptized, we are baptized into jesu, it is symbolic of what our spirit had done when we repent of our sins and accept that jesus Died in our stead on the cross and we give him our life and trust him to cleanse us. The baptism is into Jesus the annointed of God. by the way i have been baptized too, not take abth. I was saved before i was baptized and i showed the joining of my lspirit with the Spirit of christ by the water baptism.

Brother do not deceive me. Read

Mark 16 v 16: He who is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. The bible said baptizing them in the name of Jesus and not as you are claiming. The name of Jesus must follow the dipping into the water.

Ordinarily, John's baptism stood as a sign that one had repented of sin: "A baptism in token of repentance, for the forgiveness of sins" as in (Mark 1:4).  It is at this time that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John  in (Mark 1:5, 9).

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.  (Mark 1:4)

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"  Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:13-15)

Did you see that? If are not baptized which is the dipping into the water, you will not be saved shouldn’t be taken for what you said up. Does that implies that Jesus was a sinner or what is the essence of baptism? If you are not baptized, no salvation for you.



Mark 16: 16 talks about baptizing into the name of the father, the son and the holy Spirit just like I told you, it only comes after you have believed because you faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ gives you salvation. The verses says is telling you that without baptism, you are not saved hence ‘he that is baptized is saved (dipping into the water while he that is not is condemned.

Read my response above,they were baptized in those names. Baptism first then other things followed but no salvation of them unless you are baptized.



James 2:14-15 was James address to a people who thought that because they were saved then they don't need to cater for the physical needs of people but just tell them to go and it is well, James said, if you anything to do to help, do it. Dont send the needy away saying that a miracle will happen when you have what he needs with you. Some times you see people who can help you but they ask you to fend for yourself because to them you still have a lot to learn in life and they are not ready to hand you the ticket free of charge. That is what was happenning to these people. James told them to show their good works too not just talk about faith. In a nutshell, he was saying show what you believe-if you say you have love in your heart show LOVE, if you say you are pursuing PEACE, then always seek for peace no matter what.


Did you read John 3v16; For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Did you see work here? He laid emphasis on faith while in the below verse:

Also read

1st John 2 v 1-6 where paul said that you shouldn’t sin and when you sin, you shouldn’t worry that you have Jesus. He goes further that nothing for you if you do not follow the commadments. The commandments in which Jesus said that if you follow them, you will enter paradise.

Here, Paul made it known that you must follow the commandments which is also work and not on only faith as being said in John 3 v 16.


The bible didnt talk about you being predestined for hell. The Bible says God does not wish that anyone should perish but it is your choice, I am sort of like amused at your quotation in the book of revelation, the Bible speaks of those who follow the Beast and are decieved and they end up perishing with him. Let me give you a better place Mat 25:41 “Then he will say  to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!. You don't go to hell because God wished it for you but because you refused to make the vital decision for Christ Jesus. But I know it is even Islam that is fatalistic in nature. You seem to be used to quoting out of context and adding what is not there. I don't think I see anything there that reads PARADISE. Jesus said that to some people who wanted to be his disciples but felt just like you that some things which he was saying was too difficult and hard to accept(read from verse 52).

Sir, I want you to be rest assured that I have bibles at home and so you shoudnt think of giving me anything aside what’s in the bible. Now this is self-explanatory

Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6

Ephesians 1 v 5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.

Also read Revelation 17 v 8:,,,… and the dwellers of earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, cos it was and is not and is to come.

What sort of translation are you giving the verse? The verse says dwellers of earth whose names are not written in the book from the beginning and you are trying to twist that. Don’t try to do that please.




Hope to hear from you again? You either accept or reject Jesu Christ because He is now the issue.

If jesus is the issue, I have Jesus already in my life.



@pilgrim

I couldn't agree more. Muslims will often tell you that they believe in ALL the revelations of the Biblical prophets (that is in reference to Qur'an 2:136); but in reality, they really do not believe in those revelations at all. That is why when asked where those revelations can be found today, they make the excuses that they are LOST, or have been corrupted. The question then is, why would 'Allah' be asking them to believe in revelations that are lost or have been corrupted??

Here you are with the issue of revelation again. Why bringing the issue when you couldn’t defend it?

Jeremiah 8 v 8: How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  

Ve told you to read Deuteronomy 31:25-29 too

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why ‘differences arose therein’.

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it.  Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus.  Others believe it took 300 years.  In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy.  That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on.  Cases similar to this example exist in most of the NT of today, where they prove that the NT was not even written by its original authors.  It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful.  The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others.  The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc

In general, we Muslims believe that the current Torah and Injil are mixed between the true Words of GOD Almighty and man's corruption.  We also believe that the Bible had more truth in it during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time than what we have today.   That is why Allah Almighty was challenging some of the Jews and the Christians to refer to their Scriptures back then.




Anyone who carefully studies that Qur'an and ahadith cannot miss the fact that Muhammad himself used the very Scriptures of the Old Testament that the Jews used - especially the Torah given to Moses. The claim that the 'original' is LOST or corrupted is not true; and any Muslim holding on to that lie is revealing the fact that he/she believes nothing about the Biblical revelations/Scriptures; and that is why they make that claim contrary to what the Qur'an and hadith say.

Another question for you, must Christian follow the OT too? The Quran contains both the Torah and the Injil. I have answered you above, you only need to read again.


May God help them come to Jesus Christ for salvation before it is too late.

You should accept the last book and the last prophet before its too late.

Thanks



@Stimulus

The Jews are the people from which Jesus' lineage is traced, and let us not forget that this is in fulfillment of OT prophecies and not mere coincidence.

Matthew 1:21 points to the salvation Jesus would bring to the Jews. There are also OT prophecies declaring the same thing; and Psa. 130:8 is well known among the Jews: "And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities."

Are you a jew?


However, Scripture also speaks of the fact that the same salvation in Jesus Christ shall be offered to non-Jews - to all the nations of the world:

Isaiah 11:10 - "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Isaiah 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

Are the above verses for Jesus to Isreal?


Luke 24:46-47 - "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Brother try to understand scriptures before giving to me. The nations being referred to here are the twelve tribes of Israel and not to be mistaken for Gentiles cos during his, he had his work limited to Jews only. Luke wasnt even an eye witness, he made it known to you that it was written to Theophilus, I wonder if you are theophilus



The problem with the typical Muslim thinking lies in taking a few verses (usually out of context) and disregarding the rest in selective arguments. The idea that some verses are true and the others untrue carries no weight of persuasion; and the collective testimony of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour both of Jews and Gentiles.

Who has really taken verses out of context between you and I now? Trying to fit a verse into a situation it doesn’t belong is taking a verse out of context which has been done by you up.


The Bible never said "Jews only will be saved"; for if that were true, then YOU babs787 are damned as well for being a non-Jew!

No brother I am not damned cos he was sent to Jews only.

Clearly, Jesus' statement was conveying the understanding that salvation comes from (or proceeds from) the Jews, and not from any other nation.

You are partially right. Salvation comes from the jews and ends with them. No involvement of gentiles here.


God had promised this salvation through Abraham, saying to the patriarch, "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3). That promise was reiterated in Gen. 22:18 where God said to him: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Didn’t he promise Ishmael about his nations too?




That this promise was to be fulfilled, not through the Arabs, but rather through the lineage of the Jews (through Isaac), is confirmed in Gen. 17:21 where God said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year". God further reaffirmed this in Gen. 21:12 when He said, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."


Brother, did you read the verses on Ishmael with regards to promise made to him?


When Jesus made the statement of John 4:22 ("salvation is of the Jews", He was affirming the very same thing God had spoken severally right from Genesis. He did not mean at all that 'Jews alone will be save'; for His salvation is offered to whosoever believes - Jews and Gentiles. "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10).

Brother it seems you are confused with the word 'nations'. For your understanding, read Mathew 19 v 27-29 and you will get the clearer picture of antions. The nations comprises the twelve tribes of Israel in which Jesus will judge and not including gentiles. He will judge the nations of Israel cos he was sent to them.



It all depends what you mean by "follow" their holy books. The OT contains the prophecies of the redemption that was to come through the Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 9:6 and ch. 53). In the NT, we find their fulfillment (e.g., Gal. 4:4-5). As such, the OT typologies of sacrifices for sins do not continue as a literal observance; for they find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ, who Himself said He came to fulfill them for us (Matt. 5:17).

It seems you didn’t get me, If salvation is of the Jews, why don’t you follow their books, cos some chapters are in their book but not in your Testament.


Now, it would be such a towering display of ignorance for anyone to suggest that the OT sacrifices should take the place of Christ who has fulfilled them for us. It is clear from the OT itself that the sinaitic Law (the Law of Moses) did not take away sin (cf. Heb. 10:4 & 11 with Psa. 51:16 and Jer. 7:22-23). Those sacrifices only prefigured the perfect sacrifice we find in Jesus Christ, of whom it is said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

Did Jesus says he came to die for your sin and your answer will be followed by questions to let you know that he is never aware of coming to die for your sin.


Certainly, there are principles of life in the OT from which we as Christians still learn from for our walk with God. But the OT worship under Judaism was never committed to Christians in the first place. That is why Jesus in the same John 4 clearly taught that true worshippers would no longer need to go to Jerusalem; but would rather worship the Father in spirit and in truth (vss. 21 & 23).

Brother didn’t Jesus say that he didn’t come to anul the law? Didn’t he command you to follow the commandments given to Moses? If you are staying glued to NT alone, does NT contain laws guiding Christian in life?



Since you make so much noise about this issue, do you as a Muslim follow the holy Book of the Jews? How come Muhammad's revelations from 'Allah' is so different from the revelations given unto the Jewish prophets?


The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why ‘differences arose therein’.


I've answered you just above. You drew yourself (as you usually do) into this discussion and are trying to invite an unnecessary argument (as you usually do). So, you must be ready to answer several other questions that will be served you in exactly the same way that you have  been disingenuously calumniating the Christian faith.

Sure, no problem.


Dear babs787, open your eyes and read the whole of the NT - and read it in its context, instead of the usual way of Islamic selective thinking and argument. If you are readily happy to to quote one set of verses for your argument, be honest enough to admit to what the other set of verses say, even though you find yourself knotted.

I have done the reading and I am still doing it, infact be prepared for me on 2nd Timothy 3 v 16 and we will try other verses too from the beginning.


That said, John 3:16 was spoken by Jesus, and He is the only begotten Son of God. His mission was to the whole world, even though He first presented Himself to His people the Jews.

Brother, read again, it was john speaking. If someone is having a son, that son will be called both first and only son, do we say that of Jesus as being preached by John ‘the only begotten son’ is really the only BEGOTTEN SON?




I've carefully gone through your interpretation of the verses that convince you about the salvation offered in Islam. Honestly, I don't find a consistency in them at all - and that is precisely why I asked questions, offering some other verses from Islam's holy books that were of concern to me. You don't suppose that I would have to take a Muslim position to debate issues you argued against Christianity, when infact I am a Christian!

There will always be inconsistency as long as you are not ready to make enquiry into other faith. Go up, read my response to jeshua about salvation in Christianity and bring out for your area of inconsistency in Quran



I didn't enter this Forum to castigate any religion; and I've engaged fellow Christians in debates as well, in the belief that we can all thrash out issues without over-reaching ourselves. However, did you ever sit back for a moment to realize that you often tend to ridicule Christ and the Christian faith by the way you respond to issues? I guess your answer would be 'No,' but you can't deny that you have ever castigated Jesus, can you? Not even once?


I am sorry of that’s what you think, I have not been doing that but speaking from the point of my faith. Those threads you listed are not after ridiculing as your folks are trying to assume but to bring out some of the lies made to Jesus. Jesus whom I know is never a liar but most of these were written after his demise. These authors never knew him let alone witnessing his sayings. As for my castigating Jesus, have you been reading the posts of babyosis, davidylan, pataki, noisycheek etc? I never castigated him but speaking from the fact of Jesus that I know in my scripture. And if to you I have done that, I am sincerely sorry for that.


Peace.

@pilgrims


If the "Quranic reference to ayats/signs and the hadith reference to miracles is indeed reconcilable", why has it been so difficult to find the verses in the Qur'an for any mention of a miracle that Muhammad performed?


Okay, I will help. But note that the Quran is not like the bible where we have the words of historians.

Quran 53 v 11; The prophet heart's lied not in what he saw

v12; Will you then dispute with him about what he saw during the ascension to seven heavens.

v 13: and indeed he Muhammed saw Jibril as a second descent (second time)

v 14: near a lote-tree of the utmost boundary over the seventh heaven beyond which none can pass.

v 15; near it is the Paradise of Abode.

v 17; the sight of Muhammed turned not asise right or left nor ir transgressed beyond the limit ordained for it.

v 18; Indeed hu Muhammed did see of the Greatest signs, of his Lord.

Now if you dont understand, he went on a night journey to heavens which no
prophets have done.


One may not be too bothered or base one's faith on the miracle references of any prophet; but that is like saying that verifying the authenticity of prophethood is not all that important. Why? Because Muhammad himself acknowledged the miracles of other prophets in unmistakable terms:


Despite Jesus' miracles, did Jews believe him?




Infact, for those who argue that Muhammad's miracles are recorded in the hadith, these are direct reference showing that Muhammad did not see himself as one of the prophets who had been given any power to perform any miracles. If he could have readily acknowledged that "every prophet" was given a miracle, why then did he seclude himself from that category?


Did he? Cool down, read above please.




The problem with the Islamic understanding of a miracle is that, it confirms Muhammad has no place among the Biblical prophets even though he claimed to have believed in them. A miracle in Biblical terms was never given for spectacular display, but rather had a threefold purpose (there are certainly more):


You thought so? I am not here to argue the supremacy of prophets.


(a) to authenticate both the message and messenger (cf. Exo. 4:5 & 19:9; John 11:42; Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:4)

(b) to strengthen the faith of believers in the power of God (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

(c) to glorify God for Who He is in Himself through those miracles (John 11:4 & 40; Acts 4:21).

Am still asking you, despite his miracles, did the Jews believe in him during his time?


When you read about the lives and ministries of the Biblical prophets, you find that miracles were also given to confirm the claims that the prophets made of themselves and what they taught about God. More than anyone else in the Bible, it is in the Lord Jesus Christ that we see this revelation clearly presented. He claimed to be the resurrection and the life (John 11:25); and He proved this in His power to heal and raise the dead (John 11:43-44; Luke 7:13-15).


I asked you a question on why Jesus didnt raise the dead father of one of his disciples cos I learnt that he brought to life someone that died for three days.


Now, if one should argue that miracles are of insignificant value at all, how should we ever be able to believe the claims Jesus made of Himself in the Bible? How would we have been able to believe and understand His claim to be the Resurrection and the Life if He never raised anyone from the dead or give them life? He said: "the same works that I do, bear witness of me. . .the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (John 5:36 & 10:25).


What resurrection are you saying here? You better dont start what you cant finish. What of Mathew 8 v 21-22


Having followed this argument carefully, abdkabir, one must seriously question the claims made about Muhammad in Islam. What miracles of Muhammad are offered in the Qur'an to authenticate the claim that he is "the last and greatest prophet"?? WHERE IN THE QUR'AN are the miracles of MUHAMMAD ever spoken about to authenticate the claims Muslims hold about him??

So you are expecting God to say, 'my servant will wake up the dead, open the eyes of the blind etc'. Take it or leave, his deeds are recorded in the Hadith and Sunnah. Thats is why the Bible is being challenged day in day as being 100% word of God.



IF MUHAMMAD PERFORMED NO MIRACLES IN THE QUR'AN, THEN HE PERFORMED NONE OUTSIDE THE SAME QUR'AN!!

Okay he didnt o.

@pataki

It will always be waste of languages because you and you folks are confused at the questions.

@stimulus

Honestly, I do weep a lot for your trying to twist the hadith when it is glaring that the hadiths quoted happened during the oppression being faced by muslims.


Sahih Muslim Book 001, #0031: It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard the Messenger of Allah say: I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Sahih Muslim Book 001, #0032: It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded that I should fight against people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah, and then he (the Holy Prophet) recited (this verse of the Holy Qur'an):" Thou art not over them a warden" (lxxxviii, 22).

[for those who might be wondering, (lxxxviii, 22) = Qur'an 88:22 - "You are not a watcher over them"].

Brother, you are a professor I think. The above hadiths are self-explanatory unless you want to be kidding yourself. The above incidents happened during the wars fought by the prophet. Why cant you be honest with yourself and give us the reason that made the prophet fight. Did he fight to force them to Islam or for aggression and oppression? You didnt tell when the prophet left his community with his Umah leaving behind ther properties. You didnt tell when the prophets and his Umah were not allowed to do anything with the commnunity, they were not sold anything for etc. You didnt tell of the Hijrah of the prophet. What sort of dishonesty is this brother?

Once muslims were about to go into battle, and were eager to begin. The Prophet said; 'No, do not be eager to meet the enemy, but if you meet them persevere and have patience'. 'It is not the idea of fighting for the sake of fighting.'. If you go to the battle field, after exhausting all means of resolving a dispute with the enemy in a peaceful way a final attempt at peace has to be made even when the armies are all drawn up ready for battle. We should call on them for the last time to see if they will accept a just solution hence the verse:

Quran 8 v 61: But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the Al-Hearer, the All-Knower.

Even when you go to the battlefied, the Proohet and his companions taught that you must not kill a woman who is not fighting, a child and old woman or even a young man who devotes himself to religious purposes. You do not destroy properties. You dont even kill animals for other than the necessity of food unlike in the bible where everybody, young, old, animal were not spared but only virgin were spared (I wonder how they know virgins).

Some prisoners of wars became Muslims because they observed that their Muslims captors were giving them better food than they themselves were eating. It softened their hearts and brought them to Islam.

When the prophet entered Meccs victoriously, he did not go about like big leaders who walk on the earth proudly. He was lowering his head until it touched his camel. When he gathered the unbelievers (who had earlier persecuted him and tortured muslims) around the Kabah, he said to them:'what do you think I am going to do to you'? They said, 'You are an honoured brother, son of an honoured brother'. He said, 'You may go, you are all free'.

It was as a result of the above that brought them into Islam in large numbers. I gave stories of 20 christians from Najran too that accepted Islam. If he had fought unjustly, they wouldnt have accepted Islam.





Thanks for yet again confirming my assertion that Islam is anti-Jewish by default. I've heard that slogan over and over again, and even posted it for abdkabir to view online. It is a bloody lie that has been fabricated by. . . you guessed who: Muslims. Little wonder that some Muslims are trying ever so hard to deny the holocaust; and if that were just mere chess-game, then again it was a Muslim who called for the annihilation of Israel. No?


On the issue of Jews. If they sue for peace, Muslims will likwise do. What do you call a situation where a civilian is being shot for throwing pebbles? What do you call the Uranium being used on civilians in Iraq, Palestine etc. You need to find out the History of Terrorism and also go find out about the origin of Arab-Jewish conflict. Even the so called Jews are not claiming the land being their father land but as a result of other benefits worth more than that. Read above please.


Yet again, you have confirmed my point. Here, let me quote a line of standing observation:

"The problem of the Jewish people is that the Islamic religion is still living in rancour and expansion, it gives no place for any solutions with Israel."


Did you read my post above. You picked one but ignored the rest. This is the concluding part.

This religion is our mortal enemy that threatens the future of Israel and its people"


It didnt surprise me your lifting part of a quote and ignoring the otrhers. Thats how your authors do too. So keep it up.

How many peace treaties have been signed yet Jews never abide by them? Yes they believe that as long as Islam are in Unison, no way for Israel. Have you asked yourself why America is suing for peace, gives Israel ammunition but never allowed Muslims to do so. Is that justice.


You didnt say anything on these

"We do not fear Socialism, Revolutionism and Democratism in the Region, the only thing we fear is Islam, the giant that has slept for long"

"The most dreadful thing we fear is the appearabce of a new Muhammed in the Arab world"

There is also a quote that as long as the Quran exists, Israel will not be in peace that if they want to fight Muslim ,they must start with the Quran

They are afraid of the unison of the Islamic world.


Is that not true, babs787? What is really the ideology behind the seething hatred that Muslims have against the Jews?

You are not a jew, so let me have a jew and we will iron things out. Go find out the history of Arab-Israel conflict and get back at me.



Was it an "Israeli" also who prophesied that the last hour shall not come until Muslims fight against the Jews and kill them all? If your answer is "YES", then please tell me the name of the "Israeli-turned-ARAB" that made this statement before his death:

So the person that said it was an Israeli. Na wa o .



Sahih Muslim Book 041, #6985: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

So Muhammad was an Israeli?


Sahih Muslim Book 041, #6903: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last Hour will not come unless there is much bloodshed. They said: What is harj? Thereupon he said: Bloodshed. bloodshed.

Can you please expanciate on that bloodshed please as being written in the Hadith and your understanding?


Dr. Nahum Goldman, to my knowledge, has not called for the "last hour" for Jews to KILL Muslims everywhere until they hide behind trees, has he? Look at the hadiths again and see who fed that ideology to Muslims: who was it? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (please fill in the gaps)!!

Really ,he hasnt done that but he's been exchanging gunshot with stone pellets and also used Uranium on civilians.


Peace.

@stimulus

I laugh when I read your lies. It didnt come as a surprise to me. You also lied when you told me there is no Jesus Barabas in the bible. Here you lied again:.


Don't make me laugh! My posts stands as is in reply to specie's. She laid the allegation of your complaint, and my response was to call her attention to the lopsided view of her having missed the fact that Muslims are also guilty of the same thing as she attempted to cast here - and you have affirmed that (highlights in the quote above).


Did I complain and what have I complained about? Arent you the one that has been shouting that babs has been lifting from thread when its glaring that your sister babyosis has been lifting from same and she might have probably mailed you some sites. Tayod too went to that site lifted their similarities and differences between Jesus and Moses but babs never said anyting and the reason is not far fetched from the fatch that falsehood cannot overcome truth. Your authors had most of the debate edited. Likewise one pastor Isang that I told you about sometime ago. He brought his own cameraman and had where he bleeped up edited. You should go and find out from Pastor Sonibare of Redeemed Christian Church of God too. You are free to lift from any sites and be rest assured that your allegations will be refuted.



@babyosis

The religious threads have resumued, thanks but no thanks to your handshake. Like I keep saying, babs is not interested in any handshake where you go about insulting my faith and my prophet. Babs as been said will respect your faith only if you do so. Nothing moves babs, derives pleasure in debate and arguments (with proofs and facts)

I learnt you are very fond of lifting from your authors, have you for one day pondered on why some early christians were killed by your people (christians) for rejecting the doctrine of trinity? Did you say God Jesus never ordered the killing of apostates in the bible? Have found out the situation in philiphine to mention but just one out of many? You have people in Nigeria, please find out from any Nigeria that knows this very popular comparative society called IZHARUL HAQ and let them tell you how their founder Ustaz ADEBOWALE was killed by your people. Also we have encountered lots of assasination attempt from your people when I used to follow them. They have experienced lots of stoning, spraying with bags of satchet just because they wanted to preach the true religion.

Find out about the society I told you about and you hear how your pastors have been realising the truth. If you are not satisfied with the above, find out from members of the GOSPEL FAITH MISSION INTERNATIONAL abut one of their former pastor called Pastor Mathew Oyewole, he is now the founder of one Islamic comparative Society. He attended many of the so called seminars and bagged awards under the leader then but now demised, Pastor Idahosa (you know that when he died, he secret was revealed on where he got his miraculous power). Its you that has been deceiving yourselves, your pastors know the truth Islam is a religion of proof. Let me stop here to attend to other apologists.


@pataki,

@ Spicie,
Have you forgotten that the marauding thief, killer ,paedophile master in the name of Muhammad died on his sick bed cursing Christians? Is that the epitome of respect to you?

I have known you long for your stupidity in attending to issues. You came to Islamic thread only to show your level of ignorance. Here you go again insulting my prophet, deviating from the main topic. I learnt that you and davidylan knew each and maybe attended same school, little wonder for your going same way. There is still another dude here that I havent got his time, he goes by the name Lafile. He is well known for his diatribe. He has posted three rejoinders calling me all sort of names, but he should be rest assured that his time hasnt time, when it comes, babs will surely respond.

You claimed that he cursed christians on his sick bed, can you provide the hadith please. Also if he had cursed christians, why did he allowed them to worship and practise their faith during his time. Also why did 20 christians from NAJRAN accepted Islam after having been satisfied with his response to their questions.

Also, find out about a popular name among the jew during his time. His name is Abdullah Ibn Salam. The jews were surprised when he accepted Islam after asking the prophets 1404 questions on Islam, jewish believe, prophets, creation etc. So the ball is in your court, it is only human beings and jews that were given freedom to do whatever they like but will be accountable for their deeds on that unless those that remember the purpose of creation and keep off from evil.


I wish if Muhammad had made this prayer on his dying bed, maybe the world would have been a better place for lunatics not to go about threatening us with bombs!

You need to find out the origin of terrorism and you will be shocked that you so called christians are also guilty of same. Is God of the OT same as NT, the God of OT that destroyed people just because they didnt listen to him and keep saying he is merciful.



I cannot be decieved!

You are already deceived. You are just like the dry fish that cannot be straightened. Truth stands from falsehood.

@pataki

All these confused thesis just to "prove" that miracles indeed are mentioned in the quran? After using 345 words, you still failed to provide JUST ONE evidence of the miracles mentioned in the quran. A long winded treatise on ayats and the ignorance of muslims is not required!

Dont lets bother reading the rest of your confused theory. Just give us ONE miracle mentioned in the quran attributed to MOHAMMED and it sufficeth us!


There is no miracle attributed to him in the Quran. Are yu ok? So let me have more your claims.

Ignorance is truly a disease.

Gunners 4 life

@stimulus


Believe me, I would have remained silent after reading your response. However, out of mutual respect, let me say the following:

Thanks for that.


(1) Quoting those verses above simply confirms my point: Islam is synonymous with "conversion by militant force" - and there are other verses in the Hadith to testify and doubly confirm that.

Let me have them please. Hope you know Indonesia, are you telling me that militant made them muslims by force?


(2) We need to place all our cards on the table in a public discussion so that issues can be examined fairly. In which case, one cannot claim to be receiving "revelations" from God and making statements that contradict history. Jews and Christians are not jealous of one another; and if you actually want to know, it is actually Christians that are standing in support of Israel today than the Muslims dare claim.


If you want to place your cards on the table, babs is ready as well but do not accuse babs of anything as far as religius threads are concerned. Christians of all people telling Muslims that their revelations contradicts history, see the kettle calling pot black. Do muslims say that they are standing in support of Israel than Christians? Brother, it seems you dont know jewish history with regards to Muslim. A good student of history and International relations will have no doubt in his mind that the Jews are the root cause(s) of most of the problems in the world today - political, economic, cultural religious etc.



The fact that Islam is self-accusative and actually guilty of antipathy towards the Jews is well attested to in the Qur'an and the Hadiths. I hope you can honestly live with these facts in the Qur'an.

Still on the jew, let me quote some of their statements

In the year of Balfour Declaration, Dr. Nahum Goldman, president of the world Jewish Congress explained

"The Jews might have had Uganda, Madagascar and other places for the establishment of a Jewish "fatherland" but they want absolutely nothing except Palestine; not because the dead sea water by evaporation can produce five trillion dollars worth of metalloids and powdered metal; not because the sub-soil of Paestine contains twenty times more petroleum than all the combined reserve of the two Americans; but because Palestine is the crossroads of Europe, Aisa, and Africa, because Palestine constitute the veritable centre of world, political power, the strategic centre for world control"

"The problem of the Jewish people is that the Islamic religion is still living in rancour and expansion, it gives no place for any solutions with Israel. This religion is our mortal enemy that threatens the future of Israel and its people"

"We do not fear Socialism, Revolutionism and Democratism in the Region, the only thing we fear is Islam, the giant that has slept for long"

"The most dreadful thing we fear is the appearabce of a new Muhammed in the Arab world"

There is also a quote that as long as the Quran exists, Israel will not be in peace that if they want to fight Muslim ,they must start with the Quran

Cheers.

@nossycheeks

Honestly, I dont need to hear anymore of your lies and falsehood.

I am very contented