₦airaland Forum

DownChelsea:
your obsession with the original Christians is laughable. Goodluck trying to break protestantism further tho! It’s the only thing you can achieve with your obsession. Further division of the minority (protestants)

This is the same kind of opposition and challenges that Martin Luther faced but today we all celeberate his achievement.

Christaintity and protestantism need revival they need to go back to the true word of God and not traditions of men been taught in the Churches today.

DownChelsea:
joker! I’m sure you look as funny as your jokes

I look as mean and strict as my points and argument.

DownChelsea:
cos what you call paganism is what true Christians refer to as the road to salvation

That's not true, the only road to salvation is Christ Jesus.
Acts 4:12.
9 . If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the
impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the
name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom
God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand
here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at
nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby
we must be saved.

DownChelsea:
worship being generic as utmost respect and care
OR
worship specifically meanining to regard a being as ones god/God?


Which one?
The way a man cherishes his children beyond every other thing could mean he worships them ( using the 1st definition)

Doesn’t mean he takes his children as his God.

That's true.
The only way we can know which one is been reffered to is by observing the Man's action towards his children.

If he loves and adore his children, means he will care and provide for there needs.

but it does not mean he will bow to them,pray to them, sing to them, give them names and titles that only a god(God) should bear that becomes worship.

sonmvayina:
That is the real translation, please educate yourself.

No wonder you are a Muslim, pretending to be a christain.

Alexandro15:
The book of James says this:

“The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” – James 5:16

Now, who is more righteous than those perfected in heaven? Thus, we ask the Saints to pray for us, because the Bible tells us they have powerful prayers. The next question is then – “can they hear us?” The answer is yes. Jesus says:

“And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” -Matthew 22:31-32

Since we are all made members of Christ’s mystical body, we are all connected to one another and even death cannot separate us from Christ. Christ could have told us that praying for one another didn’t matter, but he did the opposite. He told us (as did Paul and many others in Scripture) to pray for one another, because God acts through his Church on earth, and in heaven, to give us grace through the prayers of others.

What I believe is the most amazing evidence from the Bible of the Saints in heaven hearing our prayers is from the book of Revelation.

“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.” -Revelations 5:8

–We see that the elders and four living creatures (who represent the Saints and Angels in heaven) are offering the prayers of those on earth before Jesus. I don’t think it could get much clearer. In Revelation 8 there is another incident of heavenly intercession.

“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” -Revelations 8:3-5
Based on the overwhelming evidence from Scripture, the constant Tradition of the Church as well as the fact that it is theologically acceptable, we can be assured that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are praying for us.

This is why we pray to Saints.

Remember that prayer to Saints is not the same idea as prayer to God. There is no worship or adoration of the Saints. Rather, just like we would ask someone on earth to pray for us, we do the same with our heavenly friends.

In John 2, at the Wedding in Cana, we see Mary ask Jesus to help after the hosts run out of wine. He performs His first miracle at her behest, even though he tells her it “is not my time.” This is remarkable, because Jesus still does what his mother asks, even though it wasn’t time to reveal his divine powers. This shows us the powerful intercession she has with Jesus.

To ask her to pray for us is therefore biblical, logical, and good.

Mary pray for us!

I have written an article against this doctrine before.

https://www.nairaland.com/3894170/catholics-praying-dead-saints-biblical

Alexandro15:
The book of James says this:

“The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” – James 5:16

Now, who is more righteous than those perfected in heaven? Thus, we ask the Saints to pray for us, because the Bible tells us they have powerful prayers. The next question is then – “can they hear us?” The answer is yes. Jesus says:

“And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” -Matthew 22:31-32

Since we are all made members of Christ’s mystical body, we are all connected to one another and even death cannot separate us from Christ. Christ could have told us that praying for one another didn’t matter, but he did the opposite. He told us (as did Paul and many others in Scripture) to pray for one another, because God acts through his Church on earth, and in heaven, to give us grace through the prayers of others.

What I believe is the most amazing evidence from the Bible of the Saints in heaven hearing our prayers is from the book of Revelation.

“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.” -Revelations 5:8

–We see that the elders and four living creatures (who represent the Saints and Angels in heaven) are offering the prayers of those on earth before Jesus. I don’t think it could get much clearer. In Revelation 8 there is another incident of heavenly intercession.

“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” -Revelations 8:3-5
Based on the overwhelming evidence from Scripture, the constant Tradition of the Church as well as the fact that it is theologically acceptable, we can be assured that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are praying for us.

This is why we pray to Saints.

Remember that prayer to Saints is not the same idea as prayer to God. There is no worship or adoration of the Saints. Rather, just like we would ask someone on earth to pray for us, we do the same with our heavenly friends.

In John 2, at the Wedding in Cana, we see Mary ask Jesus to help after the hosts run out of wine. He performs His first miracle at her behest, even though he tells her it “is not my time.” This is remarkable, because Jesus still does what his mother asks, even though it wasn’t time to reveal his divine powers. This shows us the powerful intercession she has with Jesus.

To ask her to pray for us is therefore biblical, logical, and good.

Mary pray for us!

Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent
( m): 3:59pm On Jul 01, 2017
Catholics to praying to dead saints is it biblical.
One of the customs of Catholics is to pray to dead Saints to
intercede on their behalf in Heaven.This doctrine is based on
the belief that dead Saints are alive and already in Heaven this
erroneous belief is one of the biggest decits of Satan.We will
take a look at this issue with the Bible as our guide.
First what is the State of the dead? are they living or do they
ascend into Heaven immediately after death.
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of
man, in whom there is no help. 146:4 His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the
dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a
reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6 Also their
love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither
have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is
done under the sun.
This Bible verses clearly show that the dead including the
Saints are not in a state of consciousness but rather their
thoughts,love,passions are all perished.
Death is likened to sleep,a man who is at sleep is not in
control of his thoughts,actions or environment, same with
death. Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the
heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out
of their sleep. 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the
days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto
them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake
him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he
sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his
death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in
sleep.
So if the Saints are not in Heaven where can they be? The
Saints are not in Heaven as we can see from those Bible
verses they are all asleep in their graves or earth(dust).we will
look at more bible verses to confirm this.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God
bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the
earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to
shame and everlasting contempt.
This Bible verses confirm that the dead sleep in the dust not in
Heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Even David the man after God's heart,a man who Jesus Christ
was named after 'Thou son of David' did not ascend into
Heaven after his death.
I don't think there is anyone more qualified to be called a
Saint than David.but still David did not ascend to Heaven at
his death he is still lying in his grave waiting for the
resurrection. Acts2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak
unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and
buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he
saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my
right hand,
Even David knew he was not to go to Heaven immedately
after his death so he wrote in Psalms 17:15 As for me, I will
behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I
AWAKE, with thy likeness.
Considering the State of the dead,saints including
Mary,Paul,Joseph,e.t.c while do Catholics still pray to them. It
is apparent that they are praying to Idols and Demons in the
name of praying to
Saints.Mary,Paul,Peter,James,John,Stephen e.t.c are all
sleeping in their graves they neither eat,work, Think, or hear
nor intercede in prayers on behalf of others.
This evil doctrine has been sold to the public especially
Catholics who believe that dead people go straight to Hell or
Heaven immediately after death.
People go to Heaven or Hell on the Judgement day or day of
resurrection not before then. Daniel12:2,John5:28-29 &
1cor15:12-14,1cor16-19.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And
shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
This bible verses confirm that the dead and Saints are not in
Heaven but are waiting for the resurrection for if they were
already in Heaven the bible will not be talking about a
resurrection of the Saints or the dead.what will they be
resurrecting from since they are already in Heaven?
To Catholics pls deciet from praying to dead Saints they
cannot hear you or intercede on your behalf.Only one name
has been given to us by which man can be saved and that is
the name of Jesus Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any
other: for there is none other name under heaven given among
men, whereby we must be saved.
Only Jesus not any dead saint or Mary or Paul or Pope.
We are expected to pray to God only through the name of
Jesus not through any dead Saints John14:13 no other person
can.mediate between man and God ,not Mary,Paul or angels
but only Jesus Christ is our mediator 1Timothy 2:5 For there
is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
Christ and the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of Christ can
intercede on our behalf Romans 8:34,
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which
cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts
knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh
intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

johnw47:
laugh, poor copy cat pussy cat

Idiot, I never knew that your name was among the list of names I normally post or quote.

Are you still pained that I exposed your naivety?

You should count it a privilege that I quoted a dullard like you.

Alexandro15:
I need her help. Deal with it!

Clown, you will need her more in Hell fire.😂

Alexandro15:
Op, tell me your church and the name of your pastor. Let me continue from there. I want to make sure I am arguing with a Christian.
Most of you are not even baptised, can you imagine?

What's the benefit of been baptized into paganism(Aka Catholic Church)?

sonmvayina:
it is talking about king Hezekiah...the child has already been born when Isaiah was writing, he was around ix years old then....

You are dumb.

So a human child was called everlasting Father, Mighty God?

Aizenosa:
Brother don't waste your precious time with blueagent, in many topics we have tried our best to teach using scriptures and real life situations but it all fell on deaf ears. if only he humbles himself and at least pray for direction and read those passages with an open mind and the Holy Spirit. This topic would not be here.

Proverbs 14:12 says, “There is a way which seemeth right
unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
Our minds can be deceived and so can the minds of
bishops and popes. Only the Bible is totally trustworthy.
When religious traditions conflict with the plain meaning
of Scripture then we need to discard those traditions. We
cannot afford to do otherwise, because our eternal destiny
is at stake.

Aizenosa:
As a Christian and then a Catholic, I can rightly say that you blueagent, the logs in your eyes are still very present.
You don't go quoting scriptures blindly to force your ideas and thought on others thinking it as truth, remember even the devil knows scriptures and if you call yourself a Christian which by our actions and words have not portrayed that, then you should know that you are wrong. I do believe a lot of person's here have given you the basis of veneration to Mary.

Also, your long epistle is not necessary, no Catholic will listen to you because they know the truth no matter how much you try your best to call it what it is not.

Also, if you had really wanted to learn you would have immersed yourself in the scriptures people have furnished you with over and over again.

No true Christian who knows the truth, has time to do back and forth with you, the Bible is not a story book, don't read it like one accepting some parts and rejecting some parts.

Peace.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the
commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men , as the
washing of pots and cups: and many other such like
things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject
the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own
tradition . For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy
mother; and Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die
the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or
mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever
thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye
suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his
mother; Making the word of God of none effect through
your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such
like things do ye .” (Mark 7:1-13, emphasis added.)

Alexandro15:
I can understand if you spent 6 weeks in Bible School; but I can't understand that you don't even know the difference between prayer and worship!

OP, you really need help. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is a petition or request made to someone.
Thus, I might say, "Give me my keys, I pray you". I am not worshiping you by those, am I?

Be reasonable at times.

CO-MEDIATOR - Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can
entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechism 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy
2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave
himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save
them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing
he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Ephesians
3:12 says, “In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and
access with confidence by the faith of him.”
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save
us “to the uttermost,” (utterly, completely) then He doesn’t
need Mary’s help. If we can approach God with “boldness”
and “confidence” because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't
need Mary’s help either.

Aizenosa:
Since you are a call yourself a Christian and you are sincere with your self please plug your denomination here and then the Catholic Church and see who tells the truth.


Acts 5:30-39

"We are witnesses to these things — we and the Holy Spirit, who is God's gift to those who obey him.” When the members of the Council heard this, they were so furious that they wanted to have the apostles put to death. But one of them, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, who was a teacher of the Law and was highly respected by all the people, stood up in the Council. He ordered the apostles to be taken out for a while, and then he said to the Council, “Fellow-Israelites, be careful what you do to these men. You remember that Theudas appeared some time ago, claiming to be somebody great, and about 400 men joined him. But he was killed, all his followers were scattered, and his movement died out. After that, Judas the Galilean appeared during the time of the census; he drew a crowd after him, but he also was killed, and all his followers were scattered. And so in this case, I tell you, do not take any action against these men. Leave them alone! If what they have planned and done is of human origin, it will disappear, but if it comes from God, you cannot possibly defeat them. You could find yourselves fighting against God!” The Council followed Gamaliel's advice.
"

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all
stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception.
(Catechism 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the
Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour ."
Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first
introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially
declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this
doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and
theologians of the Catholic Church. [13]
ALL HOLY - Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life.
(Catechism 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of
the glory of God." Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not
fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art
holy ." Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no,
not one."
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as
sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we have not an high priest
which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities;
but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin .”
2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for
us, who knew no sin ; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him.” 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no
sin , neither was guile found in his mouth."
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If
God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless
people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for
someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the
scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was
Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary)
was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it.
(Revelation 5:1-5)

Aizenosa:
Brother don't waste your precious time with blueagent, in many topics we have tried our best to teach using scriptures and real life situations but it all fell on deaf ears. if only he humbles himself and at least pray for direction and read those passages with an open mind and the Holy Spirit. This topic would not be here.

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that
with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [10] Pope Pius IX
said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if
there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it
solely and uniquely from her.” [11]
A lay movement called “Vox Populi” (“Voice of the People”)
gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have
him officially declare that Mary is Co‑Redemptrix. Over six
million signatures have been sent to him, representing 138
countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported
by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide. [12]
The Catholic Church exalts Mary as an idealized, larger-than-
life, perfect mother. However, the Bible shows that at one point
Mary misunderstood Jesus’ calling to the point that she
thought He was insane and she tried to prevent Him from
doing what God wanted Him to do. Look at Mark 3:20-34.
“And the multitude cometh together again, so that they
could not so much as eat bread. And when his friends
heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said,
He is beside himself .’” (Mark 3:20-21, emphasis added)
The New International Version says “His family." The New
King James Version says “His own people.” The King James
Version says “his friends." According to Strong’s Greek/
Hebrew Dictionary the Greek word has a variety of meanings,
including “kinsmen." However, we don’t have to depend on the
exact meaning of the word here because it will be made clear
in verse 31. Strong’s defines “lay hold on” as “to use
strength, i.e. seize or retain." It defines “beside himself” as
“become astounded, insane."
Verses 22 through 30 describe a confrontation between Jesus
and the scribes. Then we get back to what is happening with
the people who thought that Jesus was out of His mind and
were so concerned that they were coming to “lay hold on
him” (seize him).
“There came then his brethren and his mother, and,
standing without, sent unto him calling him. And the
multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold,
thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he
answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my
brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat
about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my
brother, and my sister, and mother.” (Mark 3:31-35,
emphasis added)

Alexandro15:
I can understand if you spent 6 weeks in Bible School; but I can't understand that you don't even know the difference between prayer and worship!

OP, you really need help. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is a petition or request made to someone.
Thus, I might say, "Give me my keys, I pray you". I am not worshiping you by those, am I?

Be reasonable at times.

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the Hail Holy Queen ,
which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina. It is traditionally
included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome
your familiarity with this text and really look at the words.
Doesn’t this sound like worship?
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our
sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor
banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our
sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn,
then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward
us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit
of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin
Mary.”

Lionqueen:
Mary must be honoured in my life every day.... Mother Mary, queen of heaven, mother of my savour, mother of the church, queen of peace...I love you with all my heart. All generation shall call you blessed. Continue to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Sheepie.

Aizenosa:
One only refutes argument when the other party wants to learn, not when they want to blow empty barrel. After all empty barrel makes the loudest noise.

Typical sheepie.

It's obvious you cannot speak from your own understanding, you can only speak as you are told weather it makes logical sense or not.

You are programmed to fellow orders.

So far you have not made any genuine or serious answer or argument against my OP.

Angelfrost:
On the contrary, I blame Africans for most things wrong with Africa, and Nigerians for everything wrong with Nigeria... Who would I be kidding to insinuate anything less??!..

I didn't say their choice of names is why they are murderous and evil (I wonder where you drew that poor deduction from)... I merely pointed out a clear correlation between poorly thought out and chosen cult names, and ignorance about the true origin of the names in question. I even further clarified, but you seem decidedly bent on misconstruing me.

don't blame me, it was you that created such impression when you used the word racists and supremacists to refer to westerners, that created an impression of someone who had grudges against westerners.

Alexandro15:
You can't even read. No where did I see worship. All I saw was honor. So what's your point again?

More lies as always.

Alexandro15:
I can understand if you spent 6 weeks in Bible School; but I can't understand that you don't even know the difference between prayer and worship!

OP, you really need help. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is a petition or request made to someone.
Thus, I might say, "Give me my keys, I pray you". I am not worshiping you by those, am I?

Be reasonable at times.

You are comparing 2 unrelated things. Lawyers use the word Lord,pray in there career but we all know that it means something different from when it is used in a religious context.

All through the Bible Prayer is demonstrated as a form of worship and allegiance to God.
E.g is the case if Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

both parties were asked to pray to their God and the one that responds will be the true God.

We all know how that played out.

No where are we asked to pray to Mary or any other person except God.
Even Jesus did not say we should pray to him(Jesus) but rather he said we should pray to the father through his name Jesus

sonmvayina:
Jesus is useless to both God and man...it is just a story that does not benefit us or God, it only makes you to disobey God's commandment... Commandment number 1,2,3 and 4

You are talking trash.

I have asked you to proof your source and you cannot .

This shows that you are ignorant of what you are saying.

Alexandro15:
I can understand if you spent 6 weeks in Bible School; but I can't understand that you don't even know the difference between prayer and worship!

OP, you really need help. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is a petition or request made to someone.
Thus, I might say, "Give me my keys, I pray you". I am not worshiping you by those, am I?

Be reasonable at times.

For your information prayer is a form of worship.

Why would you pray to Mary, when only God can answer prayers and provide all our needs?

When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray he never mentioned that they should pray to Mary or him(Jesus) rather he told them to pray to the father through him Jesus the son.

Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth. 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Alexandro15:
RESPONSE TO THIS:

In the first place; the first objection is Protestants’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness; according to them “all (including Mary )have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), for only a sinner needs a Savior.

Taking the second citation first, it is established that Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. Although by a special intervention of God, at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. Thus, She was redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way— the way of anticipation.

Analogically this can be illustrated in this way; Suppose a woman falls into a deep dirty water with lots of mud, and someone reaches down to pull her out. The woman has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a another woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the dirty water and the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Catholic Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. Through her reception of Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become contaminated in original sin and its stain.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it is stated that Mary was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

In responding to Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? One should ask the question have all people committed actual sins? Of course not. A Child below the age of reason for instance cannot sin actually because in sinning the ability to reason and the intention to sin is needed.

Scripture scholars have asserted that Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. Thus, It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The second objection was also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In this case it is observed that in the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. Resting on this argument means tieing humanity to iniquity; but Sinning does not make one human.

Officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854 the Doctrine and teaching about the immaculate conception like other doctrines was formally defined when a controversy to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; see Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thought the faithful could be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to the already-existing belief.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by Pope Pius IX devotion to Mary and his hope of inspiring others in their devotion to Mother of God

All you wrote here is Catholics dogma, not Bible teachings.

No where in the Bible is it written that Mary was without sin rather she was shown to be a sinner who needed a saviour.

You cannot compare Adam and Mary, Mary as well as every other person, inherited Man's sinful nature from Adam.
While Adam never had such nature except after he fell.

Stop teaching lies and falsehood, there is no evidence in the Bible for such.

Aizenosa:
As a Christian and then a Catholic, I can rightly say that you blueagent, the logs in your eyes are still very present.
You don't go quoting scriptures blindly to force your ideas and thought on others thinking it as truth, remember even the devil knows scriptures and if you call yourself a Christian which by our actions and words have not portrayed that, then you should know that you are wrong. I do believe a lot of person's here have given you the basis of veneration to Mary.

Also, your long epistle is not necessary, no Catholic will listen to you because they know the truth no matter how much you try your best to call it what it is not.

Also, if you had really wanted to learn you would have immersed yourself in the scriptures people have furnished you with over and over again.

No true Christian who knows the truth, has time to do back and forth with you, the Bible is not a story book, don't read it like one accepting some parts and rejecting some parts.

Peace.

It's shameful that none of you Catholic could refute my argument.

You claim that veneration is different from worship and I asked you to show me examples or ways in which you venerate Mary, that is different from what you offer to God, simple.

Aizenosa:
Since you are a call yourself a Christian and you are sincere with your self please plug your denomination here and then the Catholic Church and see who tells the truth.


Acts 5:30-39

"We are witnesses to these things — we and the Holy Spirit, who is God's gift to those who obey him.” When the members of the Council heard this, they were so furious that they wanted to have the apostles put to death. But one of them, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, who was a teacher of the Law and was highly respected by all the people, stood up in the Council. He ordered the apostles to be taken out for a while, and then he said to the Council, “Fellow-Israelites, be careful what you do to these men. You remember that Theudas appeared some time ago, claiming to be somebody great, and about 400 men joined him. But he was killed, all his followers were scattered, and his movement died out. After that, Judas the Galilean appeared during the time of the census; he drew a crowd after him, but he also was killed, and all his followers were scattered. And so in this case, I tell you, do not take any action against these men. Leave them alone! If what they have planned and done is of human origin, it will disappear, but if it comes from God, you cannot possibly defeat them. You could find yourselves fighting against God!” The Council followed Gamaliel's advice.
"

What you wrote here is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Your Church doctrine is totally alien to the word of God and the teachings of Jesus and the early apostles.

Aizenosa:
Brother don't waste your precious time with blueagent, in many topics we have tried our best to teach using scriptures and real life situations but it all fell on deaf ears. if only he humbles himself and at least pray for direction and read those passages with an open mind and the Holy Spirit. This topic would not be here.

You are lieing against God and you are claiming Holyspirit. When you are directly opposing the Holyspirit.

Angelfrost:
The fact that they are killing themselves for reasons of mere illusions is dumb and pointless... Bearing names culled from racists and supremacists makes the stupidity even more pathetic and unforgivable.

Of course they can be murderous and nefarious without hiding under stolen names they are ignorant of their origins... The names they bear simply proves that no person of wisdom and good mental intelligence joins cults.

You are insinuating that they are killing themselves because they bear foreign names which is false.

You are the type that blames the West for everything that is wrong with Nigeria and Africans.
The irony is that you bear foreign names but see it as been evil.

johnw47:
fool, i am neither rc or worship mary and as i have told you before, if i wanted to discuss any matter at all it wouldn't be with you a mor-on

You are a big fool.

ediko5:
His profile picture is Naira Marley smoking weed. Therefore he's a product of the Marlian academy.

Checkout his post.

From his pictures, the boy is surely a member of the KKK cult. Wasted young life.

He wrote I no go die 4 nothin.

But he just did that, Fool

Ihedinobi3:
I have answered much of the above in other comments (except for the idea that Adam and Eve were rewarded with "eternal death," I've never seen that anywhere in the Bible). Nonetheless, I don't discuss with Jehovah's Witnesses. You are all quarrelsome, and you have no respect for the Bible.

Does death have any other meaning other than one been lifeless and unconscious?


Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall
not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall
surely die.

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord