₦airaland Forum

kumulus:
You can't accept(believe) what you don't know.

Hence, 'knowledge' births belief.

-Lloyd

That's not quite true. If you consider your own experience you'd find you've at times believed things you know but later found not to be knowledge. An example is the one time belief that the earth was flat which was later found to be based on ignorance.

Essentially, we believe precisely because we do not know the truth. Some of the things believed are pure ignorance.

Neuter:
Just had a glimpse of your previous comments. It’s possible to look at it from the other side of the mountain and you won’t be wrong! Replied in both ways depending on who interprets this comment haha! I wouldn’t necessarily call anyone ignorant but they’re some artistically mute rubik’s cubes! You’ve really come this far and it feels good I suppose.

Interpretation should be dependent on facts and evidence, and your interpretation has no bearing whatsoever on facts.

Jesus skin colour, for instance, is irrelevant to a proper understanding of Jesus, unless the issue is the colour of the paper and pen your Logos is in. But hey, most don't worship Jesus the Logos so I guess you have a point as far as some are concerned.

This is a belief, orunto27. It is not based of facts.

orunto27:
.
Two naked people standing before Who created them. They saw Him and before eating the forbidden Fruit, KNEW HIM. The Knowledge after eating the FRUIT was THE PROS AND CONS OF KNOWLEDGE AND OF CREATION ASIDE THE CREATOR.

THEY RECEIVED THE GARDEN AND ITS CONTENTS OF GOODIES AND STARTED ENJOYING THEM. SINCE THEY WERE NOT CREATED THIEVES OF BAGDAD, THEY SHOULD BELIEVE IN HIM WHO GAVE THEM. THAT IS FAITH.

AS KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF HAPPENED CONTEMPORANEOUSLY, THEY BECAME TWO SPIRITS OF THE SUPREME SPIRIT GIVEN FREELY TO ADAM & EVE AT CREATION.

MuttleyLaff:
I asked what book that comes within a mile of the Bible, in terms, of salvation, problem targeting, problem solving, clarity of purpose, freedom/freewill exercising, process(es)/procedure(s) et cetera and you palm forward Books of Plato and Aristotle despite their factual errors, The Quran, The Dhammapada, and Nelkon - my secondary school textbook on Physics, and have the cheek to add "[i]to name a few[/I]"

I am please you admit Books of Plato and Aristotle have factual errors, but how the Quran, escaped your notice of qualifying to having its own fair share of factual errors, as well, is baffling. Even the Quran’s teachings regarding salvation are inconsistent

The Dhammapada and Nelkon - your secondary school textbook on Physics has nothing on salvation, nothing on sin problem targeting, nothing on sin problem solving.

I'll listen to you when you've read the books mentioned.

As for factual errors in the Quran, errors exist in the Bible too as no book is perfect on these things.

MuttleyLaff:
budaatum meet sonmvayina's "What is God?" contradicting himself responses

Do you really need to introduce me to someone I'm already having a conversation with?

AntiChristian:
Your own God too dey die?

All Gods die.

sonmvayina:
I don't think so.. Your problem is you are still yet to figure out what God is and is not...

What is God, Sonm?

God is the only one who created and made everything which we see in the universe and not With the help of Jesus.

2 questions.

What is God?

What is Jesus?

Then visit the Grave of Dead Gods

dawno2008:
@budaatum I quite agree some of your narratives,but the havoc done at the every beginning of a nation building is sincerity,which our colonial rulers flouted base on "our friend and loyal servant" and subsequently handing power to the least qualified tribe.

One thing stands out from his submissions, it could be that he was not as innocent as he claim,but certainly knows from first hand some of the event that took place back then,or how else can we explain the machavelian attitude of the north, are we to believes, they actually know and perfected the act of politicking than every other tribe in the country.

It's well on record and even till now how educationally disadvantaged the north's are, but till hold on to very sensitive and important post or position in the nation, they have ruled or presided over the affair of the country more than any other tribe, and still don't have much to show for both human,structural and industrial development.

So I will not write Harold Smith account off,I believe it part of history we need to address to chart a new beginning.

One error many make is in thinking the Northerners were least qualified. Facts are, long before the arrival of western education in Southern Nigeria, Northerners were reading and going to university and were much more highly regarded by the British who had become familiar with Islamic education from their experience they got colonising and ruling India. Even you note this when you mention "the machavelian attitude of the north" , and "they actually know and perfected the act of politicking than every other tribe in the country".

It is also not true that there was no industry in the North. Northerners had been trading with the rest of the world long before we in the south even new there was a rest of the world, having been exporting slaves and other goods for centuries.

These two facts are enough to make me suspect Mr Harold Smith. Saying that though, these two facts are also sufficient enough to make the British hand over power to the at the time, more educated and amiable Northerners. We in the South, did after all kick the Brits out, and we all should know how those who would lord over others get pissed off when those others lay hands on the hilt of the sword and ask who killed their father. Even God got pissed off when Adam and Eve rebelled so how much less mere humans? Would you not give the Bible to those who have so offended you and place cherubims with a flaming sword that flashes back and forth to guard the way to Plato and Aristotle least you Southerners reach out and grab it and live?

But all that is beside the point. Intelligent people ought to wonder how Northerners, who it is claimed lack education, can rule Nigeria for so long. In my opinion, it can only be because we down South are not as intelligent nor wise as we think we are, which is evidenced in the fact that we pray to gods to make changes for us instead of getting of our asses and making a difference ourselves, and also in the fact that we still haven't figured out what actually did happen.

While I agree that "we need to address history to chart a new beginning", we should not just accept any odd narative as history, is my point, and should research this much deeper.

Those who have climbed a mountain can easily tell when those who haven't talk ignorantly about the view from the top.

budaatum:
You set up some straw man then began an ad hominem attack against your own straw.


The Straw Man (also "The Straw Person" ""The Straw Figure" ) : The fallacy of setting up a phony, weak, extreme or ridiculous parody of an opponent's argument and then proceeding to knock it down or reduce it to absurdity with a rhetorical wave of the hand. E.g., "Vegetarians say animals have feelings like you and me. Ever seen a cow laugh at a Shakespeare comedy? Vegetarianism is nonsense!" Or, "Pro-choicers hate babies and want to kill them!" Or, "Pro-lifers hate women and want them to spend their lives barefoot, pregnant and chained to the kitchen stove!" A too-common example of this fallacy is that of highlighting the most absurd, offensive, silly or violent examples in a mass movement or demonstration, e.g. "Tree huggers" for environmentalists, "bra burners" for feminists, or "rioters" when there are a dozen violent crazies in a peaceful, disciplined demonstration of thousands or tens of thousands, and then falsely portraying these extreme examples as typical of the entire movement in order to condemn it with a wave of the hand. See also Olfactory Rhetoric.

Happy birthday to you.

I don't believe Trump could possibly wear a mask. The way he has opposed masks someone most definitely must have photoshopped one on him.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/11910399_nLhs54L_jpgc4bb2753c79d6ac185d8bccf6f640d19

Harold Smith, the big lie, and Nigeria 2019
By Femi Olugbile on August 23, 2019

Harold Smith was an Englishman who was born in Manchester in 1927. He was educated at Oxford. He joined the Colonial Service in 1954. He was deployed to Nigeria in 1955 and lived in Lagos, working in the Ministry of Labour headquarters under the administration of the then Governor-General James Robertson.

Sometime in 2013, at the age of 80, he gave an interview on BEN Television, a UK-based network much patronised by Nigerians in the diaspora.

The long and short of his interview with BEN Television was that he wanted to get a burden of guilty feeling off his mind in the twilight of his days.

He had travelled to Nigeria at the age of 26 with his wife. He had settled into the rhythm of a colonial officer’s life with its genteel perquisites.

As time went on, he began to learn that things were not quite what they seemed. The colonial project and the preparations for Independence in the erstwhile colony of Nigeria were not being executed with honesty and transparency, but with a hidden agenda based on the British perception of who were the most pliable among the people on the ground, and what arrangements could best guarantee British interests in perpetuity.

He was, he disclosed, approached by other officers and told, off the record, that if he “cooperated”, he would be rapidly promoted and set up comfortably for the rest of his life. There might even be a knighthood on offer down the line. There were a number of ways he was supposed to “cooperate”. One of them was in falsifying the results of the census to give the northern part of the emerging nation a much larger population than the south. Another was in facilitating the “rigging” of elections against the Action Group in the western region.

Mr Smith described his initial shock at the things he was asked to do, and his refusal to “play ball”. In the end, apparently, the actions were “successfully” executed, even without his cooperation. Much has been made of the sensational disclosures of this frail and dour-looking Englishman, who has since died.

For those who believe Harold Smith, Nigeria the nation was founded on a big lie. Population figures were deliberately doctored to favour one section over another. The nation was a booby-trapped project, programmed from the start to fail.

After his Nigerian experience, and indeed for much of the rest of his life, he was plagued with ill health. He was diagnosed with Tropical Sprue. Tropical Sprue is a chronic disease of the small intestine characterised by ulcers in the mouth, weight loss, tiredness and perpetually poor absorption and digestion of food. It is a miserable existence that often defies cure.

As the discussion wore on, Smith dropped a suggestion that it was possible for such a “disease” to have been inflicted through the sinister work of the British Secret Service, who were past masters in such matters. This, and his failure to get a golden handshake or be rewarded with a knighthood were the price he paid for his refusal to cooperate with the project to distort the Nigeria project, even though the distortion was still accomplished over his objections.

There is an additional detail to Harold Smith’s story.

The Harold Smith narrative plays pat into the script of many people who see fact that Nigeria is structured to favour one section of the nation over the rest as the root cause of the country’s failure to thrive. Suspicion of manipulation of census figures has affected even the census exercises conducted after Independence. Since political power and financial allocations are substantially based on numbers, it seems guaranteed that whoever “has the numbers” will rule (or misrule) the nation in perpetuity.A ready example of present-day reality that plays into this narrative is that Lagos – recognized internationally as the most populated mega-city in sub-Saharan Africa, with an estimated population in the region of 20 million people, the “official” population figure from 2012 is barely 11 million people. This figure and its small number of local governments remain the basis for determining its entitlement from the federal purse.

Many people have queried the Harold Smith story in its very essence. Some of the times and details do not add up. The census whose figures he was allegedly tasked to manipulate took place a number of years before his arrival in Nigeria. Despite his claim that he was summoned to the office of the Governor-General James Robertson to be “ticked-off” for refusing to “play ball”, he was still able to go on his six-month furlough subsequently, and he was reappointed for a further stint of duty, lasting till 1960. Something is fishy, somewhere. Or did he actually “play ball”, and regret it later, leading to his recanting?

The real take-away from this story is that, whatever mischief the colonials put in their script for Nigeria sixty years ago, Nigeria and Nigerians have no excuse to still be crowing about it in 2019. By now, Nigeria should have written its own script and be playing with it. The country has had enough experience of lopsided leadership to realise objectively that it doesn’t work.

The parts of the country most consistently favoured by political power and population figures have the highest out of school population figures in the whole world, and the lowest rankings on Human Development Index in the country, despite holding “power”. Nobody has truly profited from warehousing political power in any part of Nigeria.

In such a situation, nobody needs Harold Smith, or any big lie – if there ever was one, to conclude Nigeria needs a rethink of its structure and operation if it wants to be a great nation and bring out the best in its people – north and south. The nation needs to re-structure and re-strategize. It simply cannot continue to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

https://businessday.ng/columnist/article/harold-smith-the-big-lie-and-nigeria-2019/

sotall:
At best the the bible (new testament) tells you to shut your brain and follow jesus like a zombie.

This is untrue, sotall. In that same book where you read about Jesus you read how he did not shut his brain and refused to be a zombie to the book of his day, which was in fact why he was crucified.

MuttleyLaff:
Show any other book that comes within a mile of the Bible, in terms, of salvation, problem targeting, problem solving, clarity of purpose, freedom/freewill exercising, process(es)/procedure(s) et cetera

Books of Plato and Aristotle despite their factual errors, The Quran, The Dhammapada, and Nelkon - my secondary school textbook on Physics, to name a few.

Even Christ warned not to read only one book least one become malnourished.

orisa37:
The Totality of God was given ADAM and EVE at Creation.

When God created Adam and Eve, they saw(Wisdom), knew(Knowledge) and understand God. Creation gives Knowledge of the CREATOR.

When God built a Garden, equipped with a variety of Plantation, Rivers of good flowing Water and assorted Animals for eating and for games, God gave Adam and Eve CAUSE to Believe Him. The Riches and Wealth we have and those that surround us are SUFFICIENT Reasons for our FAITH TO BELIEVE GOD.

IN OTHER WORDS, KNOWLEDGE OF GOD IS THE GOODNESS OF GOD IN US. THE RICHES AND WEALTH WE HAVE ARE THE CAUSE OF OUR FAITH TO BELIEVE GOD.

HAPPY SUNDAY. From Orunto27.

I would not say two naked people in the Garden of Eden knew anything about God, especially since they had not yet consumed the fruit that gives knowledge. There definitely is no indication they "saw(Wisdom), knew(Knowledge) and understand" anything, not to talk of God, or they would not have doubted God. But I guess many would believe what they would.

Na water full you eye, or your tears are joyful tears since you know worse things could have happened.

Women in ancient europe married as soon as they had their first bleed, which was usually between 12 and 14 years old, so 21 is a vast improvement, especially for one who has been training to learn a skill for over 7 or so years.

Dtruthspeaker:
Error

Elaborate.

Explain more.

sotall:
I believe you understand what is mean by reading and drawing inference from reading.
You posited earlier that they lacked courage and I agreed with you.
But then why did they lack courage?

First they were instructed not to go up the mountain if not they will die. Who gave the instruction? Of course God.

Not true sotall. Please return to responses you got to questions intelligently asked here and let me know if the truth is not that you read it in a human written book that God gave the instruction and you believe it.

If you use your senses, as suggested, you might arrive at a different opinion and understanding.

sotall:
If you can open a thread and explain how the human senses can be used to verify any religion you know, I will gladly follow it. Its something of utmost interest to me

This thread is doing exactly that, and I am specifically not only explaining, but showing you by making you use your own senses.

sotall:
Pls let's not derail this thread with discussing "the use of senses to scrutinize religion/christianity "

For no religion will survive that

So you wrongly believe.

sotall:
Believing without the use of the senses is one of the attributes that drove me from christianity. For it doesn't make sense to use my senses to live rightly but christianity demands I shut my senses including my brain and thinking faculty which I find ridiculous.

That is not true, sotall, though it is the understanding of most Nigerian Christians, unfortunately.

Jesus, for instance, went about making eyes - one of the senses - work, stating, "if your eye is dim, so too would your whole being". A proper understanding would make you hone all of your senses, including your mind because, if you do not you would lose them[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A14-30&version=NIV]including those you might have honed[/url].

If you do not hone your senses, you will remain naked, blind, and ignorant and afraid in the Garden of Eden.

The courageous test if they will surely die or not.

sotall:
As for discussing christianity and the bible, it's the only religion I have practiced and have good knowledge on. So that's why I always cite my examples from there when discussing religion.

I perfectly understand. If I cite examples from the Dhammapada no one would know what I speak of.

sotall:
As for moving on, it ain't an easy move to do. For something I have been involved in since childhood and even till my twenties, its gonna take more than a lifetime to cleanse myself from its indoctrination. I am making progress.

I understand this too. But while you believe you are trying to move on, I see someone who is intelligently seeking understanding.

helinues:
The moment SGF started questioning Magu, I knew it was some hands from the top.

No you did not! You just believed it was a hand from the top. Though saying that, the order to investigate Magu can only have come from the top where his boss sits as it rightly ought to.

P.s. I am provoked to state the obvious because of a current discussion I am involved in and mean nothing personal.

sotall:
yea, they lacked courage. But their lack of courage was instigated by God. More like a reflex action..like being scared to death.
As for Moses, it makes sense to assume he was immune by God to the thunder and lightning.

That's my opinion or conclusion from reading the story.

Believers tend to create crap in their heads and claim it is what happened and is true, though if they could be honest with themselves, they'd accept they are ignorant and know not of what they speak.

You, for instance, believe "their lack of courage was instigated by God", and you believe Moses, "was immune by God to the thunder and lightning". But the truth is, you have not got a clue why some lacked courage that some seem to have had, and your belief stops you from delving deeper so you may understand.

Its like the [url=https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_center_of_the_Universe%23Earth_as_the_center_of_the_Universe&ved=2ahUKEwj87OPVgMbqAhXUasAKHacGDGoQygQwC3oECAIQBg&usg=AOvVaw2tlZQtcvmQdvDf0HjEVbIe]one time belief that the earth was the centre of the universe[/url] stopped some from knowing what might be the centre of the universe. Belief is also what makes some hold on to the ideology of a flat earth despite all the existing evidence to the contrary.

sotall:
As for me, the bible is just like every other book I have read. I dont believe many of the stories there in happened. Though it is the only God book I have read because I was born into a Christian home and I believed everything I read there while growing up. But later discovered many of my curiosity questions couldn't be answered by it, I knew it was time to move on.

I too don't believe. And the Bible is not my first god book nor was I taught to believe, but to use my own senses to see and understand and know, which does make a difference.

You, however, are actually a believer. You believe instead of confronting what you observe with your own senses. You indeed believe you moved on but the evidence - you, here, discussing what you believe you moved on from - clearly suggests otherwise.

sotall:
Not sure they lacked courage. As humans, there is an amount of the various form of energy we can tolerate.

On the various occasions Moses encountered God, it wasn't on record there was thunder and lightning. For if there was thunder and lightning, Moses too would have been scared. I believe it was God's intent to make them scared for he hates rebellion.

Same scenario played out when the children of Israel demanded they need a king and got Saul to lead them. At the end, their choice ended up a disaster.

Do we really need to argue that being scared and afraid to the point that you can't go forward means you lack courage?

You should wonder why Moses had courage despite being scared. Also note that only a bush burned and there was no lightning nor thunder.

Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

The Minister of Justice and Attorney General of the Federation, Abubakar Malami, should follow proper due process in this case, as he will be setting a template for the future.

Saying that though, karma! Or did Magu follow due process?

sotall:
Read Exodus 19 from verse 1.


Bring in the suggestions, I will really consider them.

Neither Moses nor God wrote Exodus 19, and no one went up the mountain with Moses in Exodus 19. Could you therefore explain why you seem to literally believe the story without questioning the source, to start with? Questioning is after all how you'd learn.

sotall:
I wouldn't say they lacked courage to go see God. The human body has limitations. For example there is a limit to the level of sound that the ear can take without damage. Also there is a limit to the amount of light the eyes can see without damage.

Remember it was written that there was thunder and lightning on that occasion. That definitely scared them.

They obviously lacked something, and the fact that they were scared suggests it was courage that they lacked. And they believed Moses. We, however, have evolved. Listen to you and op questioning what some claim to have seen up the mountain. You would never believe Moses nor would you believe me, as you very rightly ought not to. This whole thread screams "prove what you saw", and two intelligent responders have so far said, "go up the mountain and see for yourselves".

Would I be correct if I say some are too scared to go up the mountain to see for themselves so they too can know, instead of remaining at the bottom refusing to know and merely believing (or disbelieving), and thereby trembling in fear?