₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
You never responded to my above question, reproduced next below:
"How do you mean God should forgive more than it asks its creations to forgive and a million times a million times more, at least?"

You know me to respond to questions asked of me but I saw no reason to respond to your question muttley since my statement is rather self explanatory but if you need it explained then perhaps my so called "self styled self confessed highfalutin post" is way beyond your level or the switch on your brain needs turning on you after all showed its off when you argue that the "imaginary million pounds in my bank account" does not exist.

What proof do you want for a "should" statement?

elated177:
The Word is living.

There is a reason you found no takers for the thread you created for this. There was a reason no one bothered to engage with you on it despite your pleadings.

Just so you know, the Word is lived. Otherwise, it's just words in a book.

MuttleyLaff, please do us all a favour and consider shutting up. You are muddling the thread with your ungrownupness!

Ihedinobi3:
Atheism and Christianity are parallel universes so even the basic assumptions and axioms we argue from are different. This is why I prefer not to join issues with you. Still, we may be able to achieve some clarity in communication, who knows?

The inconsistency is this: you argue that a loving God should not create a hell to punish sinners but you also hold that evil should be punished..

I do hope we can achieve some clarity in communication though I think you misrepresent my position.

Here is what I said and what I think you refer to:

"God should forgive more than it asks its creations to forgive. A million time a million times more, at least. "

Considering that some humans would likely use up that quota, then of course once they have, punishment would and should follow. And if said God's form of punishment is hell, which it would have created for that purpose, why please wouldn't it use it? Would I not punish my child with a rod, if that's my preferred mode of punishment, and after I have forgiven the same sin even only just twice, because, I love my child?! Is it not in fact the love that I have for my child that would make me bother to punish it?

Please do show me where I said what you claimed above. It is not a position I believe I have expressed. My apologies for giving you work. See it please as correcting and ministering to me, and to achieve some clarity in communication.

MuttleyLaff:
There is the point budaatum
At least the thought spurred you on enough to get out of bed and face the world
otherwise you wouldnt think it's worthwhile rolling out of bed.

Are you suggesting the entire idea of God is just some motivational lie to get you out of bed in the morning?

Martinez19:
How Ocasio "large-eyes" Cortez became elected shows that people can be stupid.

I just read her wiki page. Please, what's not to like about her?

TATIME:
Hmmmmmmmmm well let's iron that out with our intellect! You're an atheist, your preferred God is Buddha(Oriental), some of your folks preferred Zeus(Greece) e.t.c Yet you aren't criticising one another to the point of public assault or instigating the authorities against one specific group. Moreover all other groups though may not truthfully be in agreement with one another but NONE is saying "we're the one and only source of divine guidance"
Jehovah's Witnesses have been experiencing such criticism from day one! For instance
*Cain murdered Abel because Abel's worship was preferred.
*All the nations around the Mediterranean hated Israelites because they claim to be the only nation worshipping the TRUE God. Israelites won't marry their children nor give them their daughter.During their festivities Israelites won't send delegates.
*While all others fights due to lands,resources and politics, they usually form alliance against Jehovah's Witnesses because they're standing out.
*None of them is interested in pure worship, they only believe in interfaith but Jehovah's Witnesses won't worship with those not worshiping JEHOVAH!

How is it possible that the "preferred God" of an atheist is Buddha? Did you completely disregard where I informed you that atheists have no gods? How can our gods then be Zeus, or Buddha who was a human being just like you and me. You are simply showing the limits of your knowledge here Tatime!

Nations around the Mediterranean hated Israelites because they came along and told the inhabitants around the Mediterranean that their god Yahweh told them, the Israelites, the land the Mediterraneans was on belonged to the Israelites and they killed those people and took it! I am sure you'd hate me too if I came to your home town and told your people my god said your land was mine and I killed your people and took it too! Or would you not? I doubt you would want to marry me after I killed and stole from you.

TATIME:
That's why i said you need to meditate thoroughly on every information you receive before you can fully understand the brain behind ATHEISM.
For instance, Adam and Eve were the first human couple to live on planet earth but an average atheist will prefer any other form of information because he/she doesn't want to comply with anything called divine instruction!

Tatime, are you asking me to discard every single bit of evidence available and accept as true what is written in one single book?

Sorry, but no can do. And there isn't any amount of meditating that could make me. If I did, and if there just does happen to be a God, I think that God will instantly turn me to dust for being silly.

Let me ask you some personal questions. Have you completed secondary school? What secondary school did you attend? Did you learn any history and science in school? Do you think your teachers were lying to you? (Insults are unintended and you need not respond if you wish not to.)

MuttleyLaff:
budaatum, it has nothing to do with theism cooking up imaginary stuff in your head
and claiming it to be true without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and asking you to accept it as true too budaatum.

Having said that budaatum, have you thought about, why did you cook it up in your that today is going to be a good day
and so gladly rolled out of bed, to get out and face the world?
Did you have any evidence whatsoever therein then whilst still under the duvet, to support it before climbing out of bed?

budaatum, [b]discovery and invention are two opposite things
Theism is about discovery and not invention or cooking up imaginary stu[/b]ff

No I dont
but you do, in this particular type of absurdity

If you can find, just one person, who believes in your fantasy of the imaginary million pounds in your bank account
you want to use to buy that spanking brand new red Ferrari sports dick extension car
then I'll arriba, arriba, andale, andale Speedy Gonzales willingly become a convert

First, the fact that you can find lots of people to believe what you do hardly makes it so. If it were so, I'd cook up a billion pounds in my head, promise to pay 999 million of it to 99.9 million people for believing it too and we'll all pocket the one million each that our collective belief made true!

And the fact that I may cook up in my head that it would be a good day any day that I wake up does not make it necessarily so either, muttley! At best, I hope it would be a good day, but it may very well turn out to be the worst day ever, or my last!

By God, are you being annoyingly lazy!

MuttleyLaff:
You easily can conjure up in your head you have an imaginary million pounds in your bank account for a spanking brand new red Ferrari sports car and claim it to be true without any evidence whatsoever to support it.
but your atheism does not allow you to cook up imaginary stuff in your head and claim it to be true without any evidence whatsoever to support it.
What a bummer, what a raw deal that is, the absurdity of your situation and predicament.

Why then should theism allow you to cook up imaginary stuff in your head and claim it to be true without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and ask me to accept it as true too, muttley? Do you have a monopoly on absurdity perhaps?

spongeisback:
Atheism is freedom from superstition, fear and wickedness. Since I became an atheist I see all men as my neighbor, unlike before when I see a Muslim or other religious groups all I think about is him/her going to hell.

3 likes!

Houston! We got shutdown! Third this year!

TATIME:
#budaatum: We're Jehovah's Witnesses, our source of guidance is ONE,that's why we're just like one happy global family. All other religious groups hate us with passion because we're shining as illuminators of the light while they're helplessly agitating because they don't want to agree with ONE single source of divine guidance! Matthew 10:22, John 17:14

Every single religion claims other religious groups hate them with passion because they are illuminators shining the light while everyone else is helplessly agitating because they don't want to agree with one's own divine guidance from one's own single source. Makes one wonder if religion encourages the persecution complex.

Perhaps everyone should learn to live and let live rather than go about with a "we are the happy chosen few, everyone else is damned" complex. After all, if you and I thought the other were damned, we'd hardly be bringing each other to tears now, would we?

TATIME:
# budaatum, The rules or constitution set by the society is FORCING people to adhere to some forms of standard. But we're not talking about forceful rules but what you WILLINGLY submit to as principles that's really beneficial for all. ATHEISM gives NO room for such,that's why billions of atheists after choosing out of the countless presented religious groups the one that is PLEASING to them,claims they're doing so for God! While those who can't find the one that's pleasing starts another one and begin looking for those with the same mindset to join! The ONE and ONLY true God presents HIS own standard, and all those who complies HE commands HIS angels to pen down their names for remembrance, when HE is ready to cleanse the earth, they'll be rewarded for their compliance. Malachi 3:16 compared to Revelations 20:15

I guess some just aren't bothered about the so-called "reward for compliance". But does not everyone "who can't find the one that's pleasing start another one and begin looking for those with the same mindset to join"? If that weren't the case would everyone not still just accept one of the more early religions like Mithraism or Zeus worship or Judaism or Buddhism? Yet here we are with new ones like Catholicism, Protestantism, Islamism, and Jehova Witnessing, all less than 2000 years old.

No one forces anyone to adhere to rules or constitution or forms of standard set by society. If I want to kill someone, I just, of my own freewill, go out and kill someone. Society might frown on my so doing however. And I'm sure, given the opportunity, the person I kill will frown just as much as I would if I were the one killed and could frown after dying.

Ihedinobi3:
I admit I am not familiar with "buda speak" but I'm quite familiar with dishonesty. It does seem to me like you're deliberately avoiding owning an inconsistency in your posts.

Just so we're clear, below is how you've defined my so called inconsistency:

You are rejecting the position that God ought to forgive sinners in favor of a new one that He actually does.

It is not my experience that people are on the whole punished for their sins unless by sins you mean error or ignorance or stupidity, and I add, crimes.

As to what God ought to do or actually does, thats like asking me what two horned unicorns ought to or actually do - a mute point for one who doesn't hold that two horned unicorns exist to ought or actually do anything.

Ihedinobi3:
As I told you, this is the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

I don't suppose you are aware of your glass house and the need to be careful with stones? It is an equal fallacy to claim something is true because you believe it. And no, I'm not asking you to prove the gods you believe in exist, but just stating my position on the subject, that gods are figments of the imagination cooked up in the heads of those who believe they do exist.

Ihedinobi3:
But anyone who fears God and does not want to go to hell does cooperate with the Holy Spirit to limit arrogance in their attitude toward God.

As raptex rightly said, "hell is a scam created to keep you in check". The boogeyman serves the same purpose for those of simple minds, as does imprisonment, which actually does exist for some sins. I see no reason whatsoever to fear a non-existing entity. You might as well tell me to fear the boogeyman in the closet or limit my arrogance towards it.

Some of us have brains and minds and knowledge and consciences that serve the same purpose where some sins are concerned at least. I just don't see the need to commit the sin of murder for instance. If we all went about killing one another we'd all be extinct someday and that does not exactly serve any purpose that I have, be there hell, or gods, or not.

I take the position of bothering about my fellow human beings and all that exists, and not for some God in heaven whom I see not nor have any evidence for.

Ihedinobi3:
And we're back to the statement I asked you about initially. If love does not restrict behavior, then a loving God will not punish evil, will He? That is a common atheist position.

You misrepresent what you call, "a common atheist position". Any atheist worthy of being one would tell you that things that do not exist are incapable of love, or hate for that matter, and do not have the ability to have any influence on behaviour not to talk of restricting it. Ideas do though. But you have not presented the God you speak of as a mere idea that restricts behaviour.

As to love itself restricting behaviour, I'd admit to being restricted by the idea of loving my fellow human beings - or regarding them, at the very least - to not calling them dishonest or murdering them unless I actually catch them in a lie or in self-defence. It could after all be the case that they are simply mistaken or limited in their understanding.

TATIME:
Haaaaaaaaaaaa all these for me Budaatum i'm sorry if i've offended you oooo.

No! You have not in anyway whatsoever offended me! You in fact deserved my time because you brought your brain to the table and I can only hope I have shown you equal respect and regard.

You, Tatime, are most highly appreciated, and I'm talking, tears in eyes appreciated, emotional buda that I am.

Ihedinobi3:
Judging that this was what you said:

I think it is reasonable to say that you are changing your position now. You are rejecting the position that God ought to forgive sinners in favor of a new one that He actually does. ?

I do not think you are familiar with buda speak. Are you knew?

Buda is a "gods are figments of the imagination" sort of atheist. She does not believe that gods do not exist. She knows they do not exist. You might from that understand that there is no god to be forgiving, not to talk of, ought to or not.

But, let's stick with the evidence, shall we. Is what I said about people getting away with sinning, wrong?

Ihedinobi3:
I think that changes like this may testify to some deeper-than-the-surface appreciation that the position of the Bible is true.

Yes, you may add Christian to my being an atheist. If one sins, one will surely die! And Jesus is Lord. Forget the God, heaven, hell, spirits etc though. I am limited to my neighbours here on earth whom I can see.

Ihedinobi3:
But that is an argument from ignorance. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that we have no material proof does not mean that it is not true.

I wonder if you've heard of my imaginary million pounds with which I intend to purchase a spanking brand new red Ferrari that MuttleyLaff says I keep going on about it? This is precisely the sort of 'reasoning' it's intended to debunk. According to you, the fact there is no material proof for the imaginary milion pounds in my bank account should not stop the Ferrari saleperson handing over the keys of my dick, as muttley calls my spanking brand new red Ferrari! Please, do you sell Ferraris by any chance? You'd be the salesperson I've been looking for.

I'm sorry, but my atheism does not allow me to cook up imaginary stuff in my head and claim it to be true without any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Ihedinobi3:
Then again, if we all knew for sure that hell exists and cannot doubt that at all, would all human beings have a choice in submitting to God? Would we not all be forced to whether we like it or not?

Watch out for my cheap shot below. I could not help myself.

I think that changes like this may testify to some deeper-than-the-surface appreciation that the position of the Bible is not true.

Yes, humans will still have a choice. There are quite a lot of people who, despite their absolute belief in the existence of God and hell who do evil things!

Ihedinobi3:
That would mean that many who don't want God telling them what to do would be forced to endure that eternally, not so? Is that consistent with Love as a concept?

Sounds like you're saying "freewill is indicative of love". If so, I completely agree. My love for you should be the sort that allows you to freely express yourself. It should not be the restrictive, imprisoning, do my will sort. I trust you to not harm yourself, nor me.

TATIME:
Hmmmmmmmmm you see,when i define ATHEISM for you you disagreed, but now you're going back to my definition! Which is "zero compliance to continuous instructions from others".

So, let's start with your definition of atheist, shall we?

TATIME:
Atheism means the act of discarding any form of obedience to rules set by someone other than oneself!

Are you suggesting I get to decide all by myself whether I insult you or not, whether I steal from others or murder them, or be a gay or not and so on? Then, yes. I do set my own rules, just as billions of many others do. I can insult you if I want, murder you and steal from you if I want and be gay or not, if I want, and trust me, no heaven or hell will fall on my head! Except there's one little problem. Some of those things listed above are just not acceptable in decent society, and those societies have laws written down listing the consequences of doing those things which if I disregard or treat with "zero compliance" will reward me with consequences that I might not like.

If I murder or steal, society will throw me in jail, and if I insult you, you will most likely insult me right back. I don't think I'd like you to insult me please, but we are not insulting one another because we are "obedient to some rule", least, I'm not. I am not insulting you because I currently have no reason to insult you, period.

TATIME:
If you're budaatum and you're claiming you do be obedient to some rules,please
*is such rule binding on others?
*can you present a written document so that others can read through to agree with the rules?
*should each person be guided individually by his/her own (buda rules)?

First, the phrase "obedient to some rules" is religion speak which does not quite express my atheistic position.

I, buda, am not "obedient to some rules" as such. I have a brain in my head and a mind that helps me weigh up the consequences of my actions and which determines my behaviour. I do not kill people because I have no desire or reason to kill people, and I don't insult people unless there is a need for me to insult them.

Now, to your questions above. No, my rules are not binding on others. The fact that I do not kill or insult people does not mean others will not kill or insult people. Go to any prison and you'd find lots of people who care not for no kill rules.

For some, so called rules, I guess I can "present a written document so that others can read through". 'Thou shalt not commit murder' is statutory law in most countries, as is 'not steal'. I'll struggle finding a written document against insulting however, but would suggest it's an unwritten etiquette at the very least. Getting others to "agree with the rules" might be tricky though. People are going to chose if they kill, steal or insult all by themselves. The best I can do is educate, or preach, as religious people do, and punish when laws are broken.

Each person is already "guided individually by his/her own buda like rule, and even the so called rule upholders break rules. We hope people learn from the society around them and the laws and education and religion we give them but its ultimately down to them whether they obey or not.

TATIME:
Most churchgoers are ATHEISTS because they think each person can choose the source of guidance that's pleasing to him/her.

This is an example of a 'rule' (of definition, in this case) that you will not find agreement for!

The pastor who rapes children is not an atheist TATIME nor is the Imam who shouts allah akbar before blowing up people an atheist!

TATIME:
True faith is about ONE single source of guidance for all worshippers globally! !

For all worshippers, maybe, but not in the real world where one person follows Paul and another follow Apollos, and that's just amongst Corinthians. In the real global world where there's been thousands of sources we all just don't get our guidance from one source!

TATIME:
Now after reading and meditating on those quoted scriptures,do you think people warring and killing one another due to ethnic,racial or political differences are Christians?
NO! Is the answer budaatum. They're misinformed atheists thinking they're worshiping the same God "JESUS" 2Corinthians 4:4 compared to Matthew 7:21-23
Thanks!

That's like saying those Israelites who were freed out of Egypt who went on to storm the walls of Jericho and murder and pillage it's people were not Israelites. Or that when Bush said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, he stopped being a Christian! Or that when Jehovah Witnesses and Protestants and Catholics engage in war in thread after thread on Nairaland, that they are not all Christians!

It's ok to insist that a word means whatever one wishes it to mean, Tatime, but that would be like speaking in tongues with no one to decipher what you're saying. Another word for it is humpty-dumptyism, the discarding of accepted definitions (rules) and obedience to those set by only oneself. If buda did that, buda will become budatalkingtoherself since no one would have a clue what the heck she's written!

Falling as a Christian does not make you an atheist, Tatime. To be one of us, the gods are figments of the imagination.

Ihedinobi3:
When you say that God ought to forgive sinners because He is loving and merciful and commands us to be the same, do you not mean that He ought not to punish evil?

I suppose I do mean evil goes unpunished by God. And if you take away the mythical hell, and God, it does appear to be the case that evil often goes unpunished unless we punish it ourselves.

Imagine politicians who rob us and who's children get to buy their way to rule in perpetuity. The British royal family come to mind. They built their wealth on the back of slaves and theft and I can't see how God punished them for it. Generations later, their descendants are enjoying their forebears ill-gotten wealth. Kind of debunks the idea of a jealous God "visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me", wouldn't you say? ^{See note though!}

Humans get away with quite a lot of things we'd consider sinful. We console ourselves with "they will go to hell", but that's just a belief. No one really knows if hell really exists such that the neo-Christians are in the process of eliminating the idea completely. Besides, one can sin all one's life, say "Jesus is Lord" with their last breathe, and they get to go to heaven, unpunished.

"Ought", is not the right word. "God very often doesn't punish evil", is more accurate, or in atheist speak, "there just are no gods!"

But (and this is the 'note!') all the above is taking sin to mean sin in its conventional form, and god to be the man in the sky. If sin is considered to mean error, or ignorance or stupidity, and god means that which is right and proper, you might perhaps see how the 'sins' of the father are inflicted on generation after generation until one accepts 'Jesus' (knowledge, wisdom) into one's life and repents from the ignorant ways of oneself and forebears. Britain has done this, and is why it is heaven. While Nigeria continues to sin and is still hell.

I hope you heard of the Nigerian stowaways found on the Grande Tema in the Thames Estuary trying to get into heaven. They will be deported straight back to hell if not imprisoned first for being pirates!

TATIME:
Who is buda again ooooo? I only use to see posts from a Nairalander with the user name budaatum.

I'm not exactly going to refer to myself by my full name!

Originakalokalo:
His mercy is immeasurable.

That's why many can say whatever and they still have life...

That's why we still have the sun, air and rain despite the level of immoralities and evil that is present.

That is why God can be called a dog by an atheists.. and he still enjoys the produce of the ground and still breathes.

Due to this Mercy that is very abundant,

He is tagged weak and not existing...

He keeps quiet still and wait...

Until the time of mercy elapses....

...and then......

Its that "...and then......" that I would want to disagree with. It's the attitude I have towards my prodigal brother. Its human of me to think "and then" , but I do not think an Almighty God can possibly have such a human flaw.

The thief on the cross springs to mind. The fuqer robs people all his life, probably killing people whilst doing it and then he says, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He gets a, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise”? That's a proper Almighty God. And othing points to grace more than that. There's no such thing as "and then" with the loving God of the new testament who just continues to forgive.

The Old Testament God would have turned the thief to salt or burned him long time ago!

Ihedinobi3:
He obviously does. But I think you mean something different. I think you mean that God should be unjust because He is loving. Since He loves, He should tolerate all manner of evil because punishing evil is unloving. Isn't that what you mean, budaatum?

No, I do not mean God should be unjust because He is loving even though we stupid humans might think it unjust if God forgives the sinners. Imagine. I work for my father for years and that useless prodigal brother of mine who has already taken and squandered his own share of our inheritance comes back and they slaughter the best cow that I have been tending, for the bastard! You do know that when our father dies, they would ask me to share my own portion of my inheritance with him, again?!?!

The request given by God for me to forgive 70 times 70 times is not because I should be weak. It's in fact because I ought to be strong (in Christ, for you religious people). It is strength that would allow me overcome the anger at my prodigal brother and share my portion of my inheritance with him. There's is no way that swine deserves it after abandoning our father!

If God asks me to be so strong that when I am slapped I should turn the other cheek, then I am suggesting that God would be 70 million times 70 million times stronger than me and not have a cheek to slap, or not get tired of me slapping It.

Originakalokalo expressed better what I mean when he said:

"His mercy is immeasurable. That's why many can say whatever and they still have life... That is why God can be called a dog by an atheists.. and he still enjoys the produce of the ground and still breathes. Due to this Mercy that is very abundant, He is tagged weak and not existing..."

TATIME:
My misinformed churchgoer friend is just soliloquizing without getting the sense of my post.
You of all people budaatum should know that i'm a die hard Christian to the cure and nothing as in NOTHING can sway me from the faith i have in Christ Jesus! Romans 8:38,39
What i'm trying to help him realize is that there are much more atheists going to churches than those claiming atheists!
Because there is just one reason people to discard the idea of continuous obedience to one single source of guidance and that's ATHEISM! Even though they're claiming to be worshippers of God,their actions is saying there is no God! If there is One God, then all HIS worshippers throughout the globe must worship the same way!
That's why when it comes to true Christianity, false religious groups will hate us with passion! Matthew 10:22, John 17:14

Of course I know you are a die hard Christian to the core. That's why it's amusing that you are being called an atheist by a so called Christian.
Atheism, however, does not mean "the act of discarding any form of obedience to rules set by someone other than oneself", though. You know me to be an atheist, but I do not think you would claim I do not obey some rules. Or would you claim buda is not a little bit mild tempered, at least?

I'll come back on some of your later posts when I get home. Meanwhile, please put some Christ into that mistaken Chidany please.

MuttleyLaff:
How do you mean with this remark?

Exactly what?

God should forgive more than it asks its creations to forgive. A million times a million times more, at least.

Originakalokalo:
Do you believe in buda?

Believe in buda, as in budaatum? Of course I do not believe in myself, that's absurd.

I don't not do 'believe', in this context at least. I either know or I do not know. If I were a Christian, I would never believe in a God that I know. Believing is like saying I'm not quite sure that God exists, an insult to God and confirmation of my own stupidity!

I know myself, would be a more accurate expression, at least more than I know anyone else dead or alive.

Originakalokalo:
Sinners should ask for Mercy or keep quiet.

Not blaspheme God and cause weak souls to derail.

You might want to take your own advice friend, instead of this your "Christ look! That person over there is not one of us yet he heals in thy name", attitude.

Originakalokalo:
Then ask for forgiveness.

Get baptised and live for Christ.

If you are not going to do this,..quoting that scripture is hypocritical

I do not have to ask for forgiveness since I, unlike you, do not appear to go about sinning! Nor do I have to be baptised or even live for Christ.

Please read the lesson taught in the Parable of the Good Samaritan if you need understanding of my words. God seems to be satisfied with me doing likewise, and if God ain't, I wonder why you'd think you, who has not bothered to remove the beam from your own eye are the one God would send to remove the mote in the eye of buda!

The peace of the Lord reigns, Kalokalo. Those in whom God dwells behave Godly or their fruits shall be sower.

raptex:
What you call "righteousness" is indeed nothing but hypocrisy. Wake up and realize that "eternal damnation" only exists in your mind. Why would a "merciful" god send his own creation to hell? Why would he even create people when he knows that they'll end up in hell? Can't you see that there's something terribly wrong with that story and that god?

Why would a god that asks its creations to forgive 70 times 70 times not itself forgive 70 million times 70 million times?

princfred:
Beclown yourself spiritual and intellectual featherweights. If you need evidence come or go where it can easily be accessed without first waiting for someone to inconvenience himself to entertain goats. How is that too hard if not for you being too dumb?

When God enters your life, you will understand how spiritually and intellectually dumb you are in expending so much energy entertaining the idea that devils exist when your very own existence suffices.

Originakalokalo:
No.

You accept Jesus sacrifice and are purified.

Then you are given the holy spirit to enable you do the will of God.. Without which you cannot please God.

That's the order....


The Lord Lord text suggests that some will creep in and even claim to do miracles and signs ,wonders and charity works....while,

In the actual sense they do not allow the holy spirit to dictate how they should run their lives.

I would claim, "one learns what Jesus taught and that teaching purifies one", though the non-religious me might wince at the word 'purify'. Perhaps " learn the way to live better", would be more preferential, being that I'm an atheist and all.

Take you, for instance. Op said "It all started as a quest to know God more (I'm still on that quest).I'd pray to God to reveal himself and for the holy spirit".

When I read it, I thought, ""continue seeking raptex, and you shall someday find". But when you read what op wrote, you called op a "masturbator" (sic), "a furnicator" (sic), "a liar, and a sexual pervert", "questioning God's holiness and authority", and a "devil".

Does that response of your's sound anything like what Jesus taught or that would come from the Holy Spirit? Did you not notice how the devil might even have assisted with your response by making you not even spell words correctly?

I put it to you that if you had learnt from Christ instead of just "accepting" as you claim one should, and if the Holy Spirit had anything to do with what you wrote, your response would not have been full of accusations and damnation, but full of love and grace.

Do you disagree?

Has Friday not finished yet? Did Trump get his money, or is Government shut down?

Originakalokalo:
If they reject, they are damned.

That's not exactly true, depending on what you mean by accept or reject.

Educate me please, now that you are being more Christ like than before. Was there not someone who did not accept Christ but whom Christ said might enter the Kingdom of God before some who said, "Lord Lord"?