₦airaland Forum

This year marks the 13th annual Evolution Weekend.

While all participating congregations will address the relationship between religion and science, many will focus their attention on the theme selected for this year: Our Shared Humanity.

9 - 11 February 2018 -- Evolution Weekend

Evolution Weekend is an opportunity for serious discussion and reflection on the relationship between religion and science. The ongoing goal has been to elevate the quality of the discussion on this critical topic, and to show that religion and science are not adversaries. Rather, they look at the natural world from quite different perspectives and ask, and answer, different questions.

Religious people from many diverse faith traditions and locations around the world understand that evolution is quite simply sound science; and for them, it does not in any way threaten, demean, or diminish their faith in God. In fact, for many, the wonders of science often enhance and deepen their awe and gratitude towards God.

By taking this perspective, Clergy Letter Project participants demonstrate that when some define religion so narrowly that it is categorically opposed to evolutionary ideas, or any of the findings of science, it both demeans and diminishes religion. As members of The Clergy Letter Project have stated so often and so clearly, this narrow perspective is at odds with the broader conception of religion held by thousands upon thousands of relgious leaders.

This year, those congregations opting to embrace our theme, Our Shared Humanity, will demonstrate how religion and science, each working through their specific lens, have come to the same conclusion: racial divisions are neither meaningful nor productive. Religion teaches us that we are of one familly and that we need to care for each other while evolutionary biology and genetics teaches us that race is a human rather than a natural construct. As members of a single species, we can move past the superficial differences that have divided us and create a healthier, more equitable environment for all.

Through sermons, discussion groups, meaningful conversations and seminars, the leaders listed below show that religion and science are not adversaries. 

To examine some of the sermons members of The Clergy Letter Project have delivered on this topic, to find scientific consultants willing to help answer questions or to read media reports about our activities, please explore our web pages. Similarly, if you want to examine some liturgical resources created and recommended by Clergy Letter Project members for Evolution Weekend, click here.

Whatever way participants choose to celebrate Evolution Weekend, their activities demonstrate, as do The Clergy Letters themselves, which have now been signed by more than 15,000 members of the clergy in the United States, that those claiming that people must choose between religion and science are creating a false dichotomy.

What do you mean, "don't derail"!? How can you ask an atheist which he'll convert people to? Obviously the response is, neither, since they both require a feat any atheist abhors, that being, the belief in things that don't exist! And no, I would have passed, but you then have the audacity to claim my passing is because I am scared!?! What? Of some imaginary god you chose to believe in?

Just so you know, Christ did not teach people to be stupid like Christians seem to have become, nor did Muhammad advocate suicide bombing or terrorism. People who actually think they do are the ones who are the most detestable opeople who have adopted warped religions.

If people actually really understood these two religions, I believe the world would be a better place and I would promote both. But as things to believe, both are nonsense!!

alBHAGDADI:
Pick one of the answers or don't bore us with your comment. Thank you

It seems atheists are scared of picking any of the 2 options for reasons we all know.

If they pick islam, they will heap curses on their head for supporting violence
If they pick Christianity for reasons we know,

they will look stupid for chosing something they hate so much.

What a tight corner their Daddy G.O placed them in.

Pls don't derail.

Niflheim:
Even some Jehovah's Witnesses were shocked and embarassed that their fellow christians can be disgracing themselves on online media, by claiming that lions eat grass!!! Here is what some of them had to say......................................................

"I mean, does a Peregrine Falcon really need to dive at 180mph to catch. . . the grass?"

Lol!

1Sharon:
It makes sense to believe Adam and Eve were black

They ate grass. They must have been green.

vaxx:
lol , DO you wanner start domesticating lion

Lol
Well, a pig farm wouldn't do so why not?

butterflyl1on:
Hence why they are posting smilies everywhere as desperate distractions.

I was going to ask about that!

Stop posting smilies everyone. They just make your post look desperate.

I am ashamed. From now on I think I'd like to be associated with people from Togo! Perhaps their reputation is not as openly tarnished as Nigerians!

Thankfully, one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch and we are seen as individuals where it matters!

Niflheim:
PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 1: I hear there's a lion who eats spinach like Popeye?

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 2: Ludicrous!!! These words could only emanate from the lips of an slowpoke!!!

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 1: The gentle man making the claim is a christian, from Nigeria

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 2: Ohh, you mean those people who claim that a woman changes to a bird, and then say that evolution is senseless?

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 1: Yes!!! They are the ones!!!

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 2: Well, these are the same guys who claim that we should avoid indecent dressing, only for them to worship a white man, wearing pant, and hanging on a cross!!! What are the latest discoveries of their pastors?

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 1: Their pastors claim that they can cure breast cancer.............................by rubbing a woman's breast vigourously with annointing oil!!!

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 2: WHAT?!!! What if she is married?

PEER REVIEW COUNCIL MEMBER 1: They simply tell the woman that my bible says................................. [/b]IN THY RIGHT HAND, SHALL BE PLEASURES FOR EVERMORE!!![b]

This is why I like you sometimes, that science bit of you! Of course one lion is not enough to prove that lions can exist on a diet of grass. In fact, only a fool will present one lion as proof of that fact. Then it turns out the actual lion was not only fed grass, as was initially implied, but was also fed foods that gave it essential minerals that it would have become severely ill if it hadn't had them at all. Then it turns out the poor lion died at an abnormally young age of 9 years when the age of properly fed lions in captivity is 25-30 years!

If anything, the lesson learnt from Tyke the Lion is, don't feed your lions grass alone!

vaxx:
simple, it is not enough to base fact of a study when making research on a single truth. the population size is just one out of numerous lion. but lets take it this way, the test can also be run on many lions, the story also talk about how the family adopt baby when they pay little tyke parent a visit. but was silent on that path. so the only evidence we have now is little tyke. and i think it is not rich enough. anyway little tyke story flawed scientific fact , but of what other lions too.

You are worth reading sometimes. Do me a favour, edit your posts for clarity. It will make you worth reading even more.

Butter, if I were a god believing person, I would say god used you today to teach these ignorant atheists about taurine. I would however ask that you to listen to your god and learn instead of assuming you know it all. You too have much to learn here.

You ask me to accept an anecdotal "famous zoo curator Jack Hana" statement that "this is the healthiest African lion I have ever seen" while the actual facts state the lion only lived 9 years. And it was not hit by a bus or shot by poachers, but seems to have died of heart failure! Now that takes some taking! As I mentioned, you are a bit of an expert on this subject of animal nutrition being as you gain an income from it. If I wished to go into your trade. And approached you for advice, I put it to you that you would not advise me not to be scientific in how I treat my pigs, and follow the sentiments you have promoted here unless you wanted all my pigs to die! I don't like that about you, your will to win a point no matter the consequences.

Anyway, thanks for the education about taurine. It is a requirement in human diet too, and I never heard of it before today!

If big cats do not receive sufficient amounts of the amino acid, taurine, in their diet they will loose their vision and have a short life-span. The lack of taurine, leads to vision problems (central retinal degeneration), heart failure (acute cardiomyopathy), immune system dysfunction and blood clotting disorders. This ingredient is deficient in the stale meat many facilities are tempted to feed.

Taurine is an amino sulfonic acid, which is a compound that your body produces from the amino acids found in protein foods. Specifically, your body uses the amino acid cysteine to produce taurine, which promotes cardiovascular and neurological health. As eggs contain large amounts of cysteine, they are one of the best foods for boosting intake of taurine.

Taurine is an amino acid that is essential in a cat’s diet because they cannot synthesize it adequately like most other mammals. The feline heart, platelets and retina require Taurine for both structure and function. Your cat’s liver, gallbladder, central nervous system, skeletal muscles and bones also utilize Taurine, and it may assist in electrolyte balance.

vaxx:
can anybody answer how little tyke survive without eating meat? the grass issue is debatable, one hour of tall grass consumption is not enough evidence. and my second question, can herbivorous animal be trained to eat meat ?

Thank you.

I don't have the unqualified faith you have in vaxx, however, he ended the piece you quoted with a get out clause!

vaxx:
well, i do not think little tyke story alone is enough.

So how can you claim "case closed"?

butterflyl1on:
Case closed!

Vaxx, perhaps you want to explain what you meant there?

butterflyl1on:
Deficiency in taurine kills lions in weeks and not years.

She wasn't completely deficient so it might have taken 9 years.

butterflyl1on:
72,800 / 400 would give you 182 eggs or roughly 15 dozen eggs.

She had to eat 15 dozen eggs and half gallon of milk daily to achieve this and even you and I know nobody can afford 15 dozen eggs consistently daily except you are mad rich and according to the story, this family that raised tyke were financially crippled

Oh good. You done the same calculations. However, your conclusion here is outright fallacious! it would cost a lot more if you were feeding it meat, and people very well can afford it.

Besides, Little Tyke paid her own way from the numerous paid work it did. It even raised funds for a hospice!

Haven't seen anywhere for the financially crippled.

Butter, you are trying to make out this lion stood in a field eating grass like a cow would. Even what you posted says it only spent an hour eating grass, which by anyone's reckoning, is not sufficient food (not to talk of nutrients) for a lion. You have posted that they fed it eggs too, which we now know, is a source of taurine. Guess we need to know how many eggs they fed it.

I read somewhere a lion needs 15kg of meat a day. If the lion ate eggs (@64g per egg) alone, that would equal a whopping 234.375 eggs! A more reasonable tenth of its diet being eggs (and it would not surprise me if over half its diet was eggs!) sure would be sufficient to avoid the more drastic consequences of complete taurine deficiency. Though, the fact that it died at the early age of 9 indicates that it might have caught up with it in the end.

Readers required please

The True Story of a Gentle Vegetarian Lioness (Quest Books) by Georges H. Westbeau in pdf format download

I was wondering why they kept calling it Little Tyke. Was it perhaps small for it's age? Seems it died young too, 9 years as opposed to 25-30, for a lion in captive.


I wrote an article on Little Tyke for the White River Valley Museum s newsletter a couple of years ago. She lived just down the street from my house (although a generation earlier). Yes, she died early for a lion in captivity; it s unknown if her unusual diet played any role (perhaps weakening her immune system?). It s likely that she never ate meat because she didn t have a mother to introduce it to her as a lioness will do for her cubs in the wild. Furthermore, at the time she would normally have been learning to eat meat, she was recovering from a tremendously painful burn--she likely learned to associate the smells of raw flesh with intense pain and, therefore, avoided all contact with raw meat. Georges Westbeau, her owner, spun all kinds of nonsense about having trained her to eat a vegetarian diet to her being a sign from God (the lion lying down with the lamb and all that). He was definitely a bit of a P.T. Barnum in that respect.

butterflyl1on:
Google tyke the vegetarian lion and see if it's only religious folks like me that have his info. Go on and do that

And who spoke about about vegetarian lions in the wild? That is not part of our discussion. The discussion is can lions live without meat as carnivores?

The answer is obviously yes since this one was raised for 9 years strictly vegetarian.

One lion did. In a controlled environment! And I don't know that it was "strictly" since the "the Westbeaus advertised a thousand dollar reward for anyone who could devise a method tricking Little Tyke into eating meat."

butterflyl1on:
Like I said, read all I posted on this matter. Here is a bit of it.


She could not have been drinking 500 gallons of milk or 4000 eggs a day plus tuarine was relatively unknown in 1950 and was known in 1976. Yet she lived for 9 years and was reported as the healthiest African lion ever seen by a world famous zoo curator.

Cc budaatum

Vegetarian Lioness: Little Tyke
Here's the most objective article I've found on the topic. Still leaves a lot out. They could have said what they fed it, and consequences but didn't. Could it have survived in the wild, for instance on the diet they gave it? What was the consequence of it not having taurine? And so on.

butterflyl1on:
Wrong about the supplements.

He was fed freshly grown vegetarian feed or produce. This was in 1950 before the era of chemical additives. The lion wasn't given supplements.

Those who raised this lion owned a ranch so they were farmers

Come on, butter, you rear pigs! You know what happens if your pigs are not fed the right nutrients!

You are wrong about additives. The lion's diet would have required some severe diet knowledge or it would not have gotten the nutrients it required.

Most unfortunate is that all the evidence for Tyke the Veggie Lion is given by religious folks like you, and veggie apologetics. Would have been good to have some verifiable evidence. However, the fact remains that apart from in the controlled environment of domestication, no lion has been know to be vegetarian.

butterflyl1on:
Wrong about the supplements.

He was fed freshly grown vegetarian feed or produce. This was in 1950 before the era of chemical additives. The lion wasn't given supplements.

Those who raised this lion owned a ranch so they were farmers

Supplements existed in the 1950s

The owners of Tyke were not as irresponsible as you are making out. They tried to feed it meat for 4 years and consulted many experts who most likely would have recommended supplements to what it missed from not eating meat! If they didn't Tyke would have died of malnutrition.

dalaman:
Why are you parroting empty claims? The lion was said to be domesticated and pictures were provided as evidence, pictures of the lion feeding were also provided only that the pictures were of the lion drinking milk . No pictures of the lion eating grass were provided. So it remains an empty claim as far as am concerned. Until you can provide a picture of the lion eating grass and herbs you shouldn't expect me to take you seriously.

If you know anything about lions and their digestive system you'll know that they are meant only to feed on meat. You have also deliberately refused to tell me when lions stopped eating grass and herbs and started eating flesh exclusively.

You would also know that any domesticated animal fed on a diet that differs to it's normal diet would most likely be given supplements to make up for the nutrients it wouldn't be getting or it would die of malnutrition.

butterflyl1on:
How are you sure the serpent in the garden was not saying what it was programmed to say?

First, I'd have to believe there was a garden, and a god! Too many things to make up and believe that if I did, I'd think I was mad. I sure would doubt my own judgement if I did.

Chewing on though. That lion is not making a meal of grass!

butterflyl1on:
Parrots don't just "repeat random words" they actually do have conversations. Take a look

When I was like really young, these mates of mine who grew up in Obanikoro Village told me rats talk. Well, even at barely 7, I was atheistic in nature, so I argued that rats don't talk. Now there were like 5 of them, so they ganged up on me calling me all sorts of names and that I know nothing, "rats talk jo!".

One day, about two years later, we were in the home of one of them and NTA was showing Tom and Jerry. "There," they said, pointing to the telly. "I thought you said rats don't talk?"

Turns out oyinbo rats do talk, silly me!

Please! I am trying to respect you. Stop scraping the barrel. We all know what having a conversation is. Next you'd claim Siri is not just saying what it has been programmed to say!

butterflyl1on:
The only problem I have with you atheists is your deceptive and lying ways. You guys have already made your conclusion that everything the Bible said is a lie. Even the most reasonable ones so whenever a counter argument is thrown at you guys you bring up such illogical and deceptive modes of reasoning as long as it favours your atheism.

How can a grown man be telling me that since a parrot tends to speak (even though it repeats what it hears, it still does so by speaking) that a fellow animal like a snake could not possible be able to speak as well and be able to use this to converse with a human as a parrot would.

Parrots don't converse! They repeat random words they have learnt.

Oops. I see you addressed it here, my bad.

It could still mean that however.

butterflyl1on:
NPCcomplete before you refute anything you hate you need to first pause and at least attempt to be intelligent about it.

Why would God specifically talk about multiplying conception? The natural thing that follows conception is childbirth isn't it? If the woman had general sorrows initially why then was God specific about the comment "AND CONCEPTION"?.

he could have said "and eye sight, or and heart, or an anything else. Why conception?

This was because his focus was on her childbirth and which is why her multiplied sorrow is for her childbirth. So despite an increase in conception, her delivery would be very uncomfortable and with increased pain.

I am sure that by now you now I speak the truth but would still wish to hold your irreligious view as best you can.

butterflyl1on:
NPComplete let me simplify this.

This is what God said.

1. I will greatly multiply thy sorrow.
2. I will greatly multiply thy conception.

Those are two separate comments talking about 2 different issues.

1 is sorrow (unknown initially)
The second is length of conception (which has no sorrow attached to it but just an increase in conception)

This discussion is about sorrow and not increase in conception.

God now went further to specifically say the area this sorrow would be for and he said it would be for childbirth.

This is pretty simple.

The moment the term MULTIPLY was used it should show you that there was an already established and existing parameter this multiplication was to work on.

"2. I will greatly multiply thy conception."

Could mean "increase the number of times you conceive"

??

Now that's what I like to see. Objective evidence scientifically ascertained.

So, you measured the pain of your pigs with a painometer and compared it with the reading you got for the pain you measured for humans and found that of the human to be more.

Please tell, I'm curious. When any of your pigs die in childbirth, did you measure the death with a deadometer and find the dead pig was not as dead as a dead human too?

butterflyl1on:
Jumping around calling any counter post to yours "stupid" is just a show of your bully and childish mentality. Talking about Genesis 3, I would like to post that particular portion of scripture. I believe it was written in English language when translated so let's consider the words together.



I deliberately made bold some words there. Childbirth already had pains associated with it and the Bible never hinted at NO pain. It says I will make YOUR PAINS in childbearing very severe.

This means the pains woman go through today during child and the painful labour was not meant to be as severe as that.

It is on record that the pain levels during labour or delivery ranks extremely high for humans than for animals. Animals never reach the pain threshold where they end up screaming. They get uncomfortable and do feel a bit of pain but not like humans.

So for even animals, a bit of pain is expected same way for humans pain was already there but God simply said HE WOULD INCREASE THE PAIN WHICH ALREADY EXISTED.

It's English but a lot of people still fail to see what is right before their eyes.

I run and own a piggery and have seen my pigs give birth a lot and it is always pain free and at most a bit uncomfortable. My gilts and my sow (those who have given birth before) never scream in pain. They may grunt during childbirth but that's just about it.

cc royalamour

Please unban ScienceWatch. I miss him!

Sincerely,

buda

MrPresident1:
Ezekiel 20:6
In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

Deuteronomy 11:10-12
10 For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs: 11 But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven: 12 A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

That's what they taught in my mother's day, that Israel was the Garden of Eden. It left them believing it was in heaven, until she travelled via Israel and Egypt on her way to UK in the 60s. I can't believe this is still believed in this modern day and age!

delexy123:
To conclude that man made up 'god' when we still can't fathom how man became conscious of the existence of a 'god' is intellectual dishonesty. If one is to tread the path of evolution, then it is safe to say that it is highly unlikely that a time will come when man will conceive how he came to existence.
Now if it is highly unlikely that man will know how he came into existence and how the idea of a 'god' became conceived in the mind of the early man then his conclusion that a 'god' or 'spirit' is simply made up is wrong.

Humans have already conceived how early humans came into existence. The fact that it does not suit the narrative you want is neither here no there! We also know how gods came about. We have always made them up and would most likely always make them up.