₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
So you mean that the fossil showed you a record in your present lifetime of how a fish became an amphibian through millions of years but you can't observe any of that processes happening right now?

No one observes it happen in one lifetime Oga.

budaatum:
Oh, the Natural History Museum is awesome. They not only describe the millions of years evolution took, they also allow him to see fossils of species million years old and how they relate to what he sees today.

Of course he might choose not to believe his eyes, but the evidence will be before him to see.

Don't be funny. You are talking about someone who wants to see it happen within one lifetime.

Truthseeker10:
So are you saying that there are no observable macro evolution that has been taking place from the distant past till today for you to be a witness to one in your lifetime now?

All that can't be witnessed directly in any one life time of course.

However the study of archaeology, fossils etc can reveal what has transpired especially through the fossils of intermediary species.

Truthseeker10:
Are you quoting the same budaatum who uses deceptive pictorial illustrations? Did he use those pictures because he did not visit the museums?

I have no idea who he is, where he is or where he has visited.

The point was about your understanding of macro evolution. . .

Truthseeker10:
Explain what macro evolution is.

In brief, the evolution which brings about changes of species and new species over exceedingly large expanses of time.

Let's say, how a fish becomes an amphibian. How that becomes a reptile. How that becomes a bird.

I am just making it simple.

Truthseeker10:
So since you've not seen it in your lifetime, how can you say for certain that they exist?

There we go.
So you don't know what macro evolution is.

Budaatum, can you see why a visit to the museum will be useless?

budaatum:
Yes. Human beings. And since macroevolution takes place over millions of years, your question shows the limits of your learning.

What you doing tomorrow? Would you like to come to the British Museum so we can look at the evidence together?

I dont think that would help if he doesnt understand that it is observation over millions of years.

Also beware that not even the evidence in your picture is beyond question, in fact some of the skulls there will be an argument against you.

Truthseeker10:
Does your question suggest that evolution whether micro or macro has stopped?

No one sees macro evolution in one lifetime directly. And thats where you want to go. Please dont do that to yourself.

Truthseeker10:
is there an example of macro evolution that you've seen in present times?

I am sure you cannot mean one I have watched happening with my eyes in my lifetime.

Emusan:
Ps 2:7 “The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.'"

Heb 1:5 - For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.”

Read these verses objectively and see if Jesus had been the Son before coming to earth.

Lol. I will not waste my time further with you.

LordReed:
Unlimited money and time travel.

Controlling anyone gets you unlimited money - and much more.

So Time Travel for what?

Angelfrost:
Control anyone of course...!

That's a no brainer.

Basically the gift of all gifts.

Gbam. I dont even know why anyone needs two doors. This one alone is Godship over everything in this world.

Emusan:
No! That's the truth from the scripture.



Begotten by God of Jesus Christ happened on earth, that is why the scripture says "THIS DAY...I have begotten thee"

If you study scripture very well, The Father and Son begins the moment Jesus became part of Creation reason why the scripture says "...Today I have become your Father"

About sitting at the right hand of God is simply because Jesus mission hasn't ended, so it's part of when Jesus became part of Creation.

In fact, one of the verses you posted emphasized on this when it says “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” - 1 Corin 15:28

Pay attention to the @underlined.

Why must God be ALL IN ALL not until the Son is subjected to the Father?

This simply means, until the mission of the Son is complete



No! They're absolutely when He became part of the Creation.

Please specifically refer me to this -

"If you study scripture very well, The Father and Son begins the moment Jesus became part of Creation reason why the scripture says "...Today I have become your Father"

Verse?

Babalegba:
Lol, in the extremely unlikely scenario of Biafra being actualized,only you and failed ibos will move there. The rich successful ibos in my town want nothing to do with Biafra. The one person who is always shouting Biafra is the one whose business is not going well and spends a lot of time drinking and womanizing even though he has a wife and kids at home. Biafra is for miscreants, frustrated ibo people and people using Biafra to steal.

How far with your "white men are our masters" worldview?

lawani:
Before a country can work very well, half of the GDP must be taken as taxes

From where, if it is not working well already, how do you get it from the poor economy. Factor in corruption before you misyarn oh.

Unbiased1, I never heard back. If you ever replied, you can repost here pls. Kindly cc no one or I may not see it as I banned one person.

Kukutente23:
It takes two to war
Those guys will not be appeased untill Israel is evicted from that place
You think Israel being nice guys will stop those guys?
Have you forgotten so quickly the articulate lecture you got from Unbiased1 fellow?
The sword will never depart from your house was God's judgment on David for the murder of Uriah and not Palestinians
Why do you twist the Bible so?

What articulate lecture? I responded to him in great detail and never heard back.

https://www.nairaland.com/8503521/gaza-city-razed-hamas-does/8#136638178

So did a friend of mine who wished to stay off this board, but whose comments I transmitted.

Most further posts there, I cannot see as I banned someone, Tctrills, I think. So perhaps for that reason I cannot see anypost in which Unbiased mentions Tctrills as well.

Unbiased was thoroughly dismantled.

PS: Israel is the House of David. So the judgment was on Israel up till today.

LordReed:
Talk about carrot and stick. LoLz. E use one hand slap am, take the other hand say sorry.

I SWEAR.

Skillful.

triplechoice:
Hello, @ DeepSight. I'd like to address separately here all the points you've raised since my initial clarification which was meant to diffuse the tension between Westerhoffe and Lordreed.

I believe there's a significant misunderstanding at the heart of your argument that I wish to address. My intention isn't to argue for the effectiveness of prayer, that's a task for the Christians following the thread to tackle. I aim to offer a perspective based on things I've learned as someone who has participated fully in both Christianity and another religion.

First , on the nature of "Destiny" in Christianity, your argument rests on a generalisation that " religious people mean"destiny" was placed there by God. This is exactly where the major error lies. What you described is a belief much closer to fatalism or specifically Islamic theology, not mainstream Christianity .

Christianity doesn't teach that every event in life, especially negative ones such as accidents , sickness, or sudden death, is a specific,pre-set " destiny" ordained by God. Instead, at the heart of the Christian worldview is the concept of spiritual warfare. ( Ephesians:6:12). Christians are taught that evil forces are actively operating in the world.

Therefore, when a believer has a dream about death and prays against it,, he or she is almost certainly not understanding that dream as a revelation of God's immutable will. They're much more likely interpreting it as a warning of a potential attack from an enemy and a call to spiritual vigilance.

The prayer against death isn't an attempt to "defeat God's will" ,but a petition for protection and deliverance exactly as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "deliver us from evil". In this instance, Westerhoffe is asking his God to enact his will over a potential evil outcome.

I challenge the idea that the Bible does not teach predestination in an absolute sense.
If this is true, then what do you think the Bible is teaching in the following -

Romans 8:28-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:15-16
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

Finally -

Jeremiah 10:23 - "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."


I urge you to look critically at each of the foregoing and see if these are not teachings of absolute predestination, from the very steps you take, to your final purpose even before you were made. Intricately.

These are on all fours with Islamic Fatalism.

Furthermore, religion like Eckankar, which I am familiar with, and many traditional and Eastern belief systems teach that destiny is largely malleable "isn't cast in stone:" .It exist as a field of future possibilities , good or bad, based on the individual's karma, and can be altered if one wishes to avoid a particular outcome. Glimpse of these potential paths can be viewed in dreams or through soul travel. If a person sees a future they wish to avoid, they can change it through dedicated spiritual practice and by taking concrete actions to steer away from the path .The shared core principle is that one's present-moment intentions, choices, and actions exert powerful influence on one's future,making one and active participant in shaping one's own destiny.

Eckankar, the religion of the light and sound of God, is a FAR DEEPER school of thinking than anything to be found in Abrahamic religions. Yes, what you have described here is apt, and karma has a lot to do with it, in Eck thinking, and most Eastern schools of thought if not all.

Now, this leads me to your other point about the colloquial use of destiny. I believe you're creating a false equivalence, either deliberately or unintentionally. In it's true colloquial sense, the word, "destiny" is rarely,if ever,used for logical impossibilities like you becoming "the Pope"or "the"crown prince ". That would certainly be absurd.

" Destiny " is normally used in one of two ways:

1. As a likely outcome based on one's current actions. For instance, " If you never study, your destiny is to fail the exam".

2. As a sense of fitting purpose. For instance, "He is always kicking things as a child, now he has found his destiny as a professional footballer".

When a Christian talks about a dream of death and prays against that"destiny ", he's using it in the first sense. The dream suggests a feared potential outcome, a negative path his life could take. His prayer is an attempt to avert that potential outcome.

While " hope" is a beautiful word, it fails to capture the same meaning. You hope for good things. You pray against a negative destiny.

They really should find another word because its just not the same thing. But yes, I understand the colloquial usage. That usage is entirely informal and has no business in serious discussions.

On the function of prayer, your use of the Gethsemane example is not complete . You isolated Jesus's prayer of submission and presented it as the only valid form of prayer. Yet, the same Jesus who submitted to the cross also taught his followers to pray to change circumstances, "Give us this day our daily bread" , deliver us from evil " . Performed miracles that actively altered the "destiny" of the sick, the hungry and the dead .

I disagree. The "Our Father" is not a prayer to change any divine will. If anything it is an affirmation of it, and a signal of humility and thanks.

And I strongly urge you not to attempt to trivialize Gethsemane. It is a huge example. It shows very well that the will of God in Christianity cannot be changed by any amount of prayer, even by the son.

Finally, you ask if God's will can be changed. I will leave you with one clear biblical example.

The prophet Isaiah told King Hezekiah ."This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order because you are going to die: You will not recover" . Hezekiah did not accept this as a "fixed fate" placed by God. Instead,he turned his face to the wall, prayed, and wept bitterly . In response, God sent Isaiah back with a new message."I have heard your prayer and seen your tears ; I will heal you..I will add fifteen years to your life" This is a clear biblical precedent where a proclaimed outcome was changed through prayer.

I truly cannot comment on the antics of every prophet. It could well be that the result was always what was going to happen, and the warning only ensured the result, if you get my drift. Something self-fulfilling. Be that as it may, this cannot stand against the weight of all the verses in red above.

So, to conclude, the contradiction you see is based on a misapplication of a fatalistic concept of destiny to a Christian who doesn't operate within that paradigm. Within his framework , where God is a protector from evil, his actions are perfectly coherent. He's watching and praying, just as his scripture admonish him to do . However , the lingering issue is the reluctance of him to accept that the initial misunderstanding wasn't due to an inability to comprehend, but rather how both of them perceived the same word, "destiny" . Identifying that semantic gap was the primary goal of my intervention and clarification.

Thank you

All this I understand, but in truth, if any Christian believes in God's will, they will not bother themselves. Rest, for it will be done. But there is no rest, because fear of tomorrow is part of that program and part of that will, and it is, in itself, self-fulfilling.

Have you ever heard of the Greek myth of Oedipus? When Oedipus was born to the king and queen of Thebes, Laius and Jocasta, a prophet announced that the baby would grow up to kill his father and marry his mother. The boy did everything to avoid this prophecy and all those actions are exactly what made the prophecy come true. I trust you see the point.

Gabrielshow24:
For micro, I believe 🥱. As for macro, na da🤕.

Evolution is real. Both micro and macro. Know this and know peace.
There are simply aspects that are as yet unexplained even by its very principles, and for me, I generally think are suggestive of another element simultaneously at play. What that element is, I dont know.
.

seunmsg:
Peter Obi now plays politics with birthday celebrations ? Wow! Seems there is no dirty depth this guy can’t descend to in his desperation for power. He’s completely unhinged and it’s so pathetic and sympathetic to see what political desperation has turn this guy into. Obi needs our prayers at this point because the next stage may be a full market display of lunacy.

When they want to spend our billions on personal frivolities, do they wait for birthday donations or they just steal our money?

triplechoice:
I believe your reply to DeepSight is lost in translation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're trying to express is the colloquial idea.." Since no one can be sure how or when they will die, a bad dream serves as a warning to pray for God's protection"


This is different from the theologica concept of fixed " will of God" that cannot be changed. Your practice of praying against negative possibilities suggests you believe more in the colloquial flexible meaning of a potential outcome that can be averted through prayers.


Is that a fair interpretation of your position?

I believe at this point he is afraid of the simple question and doubt very much that he will offer anything tangible.
I have seen your other post and thank you for it, will be glad to respond as soon as I can. You always come with clear thoughts.

Kukutente23:
That's your consolation now
The sound of bombings
Chai. Not good to be a terrorist sympathisers

I didn't mean the sound. I meant warfare will be permanently their lot as they can't retreat behind an ocean. As the Lord said to David, the sword will never depart from their house.

bibiking7:


So, the UK has just recognized the Palestinian state. Canada, Australia and Portugal are planning to follow suite. This happened today. Why would hamas make things worse by putting up a parting message about the hostages when things are about to get better. Theres alot of propaganda behind all wars. Netanyahu was not happy about the sovereign recognition by the UK. This parting message will give Isreal more justification continue the ongoing onslaught. I have a feeling that, Isreal did this. Just my own thought.

It's very very very bad timing for Hamas to do that, so bad that you just may be right that it's not them.

Karlman:
What a laughable quote!
It's really warped minded to think Palestinians or hamas is giving Israel sleepless night. On the contrary, hamas is only giving Israel their needed opportunity to recover their lost heritage and that's exactly exactly what Israel is doing.

You can't see what's happening. You fail to realize that there is strategy to this. The recognition of powerful Western nations denied for seventy years has only come through because people like you have allowed Hamas to goad Israel into being hated by the world once again.

Karlman:
Where are Hamas sympathisers?
I have repeatedly said that Isreal has every right to flatten Gaza.

It's just so laughable when I see people sympathising with Palestinians but don't give a hoot about the hostages. These set of people are the greatest enemy of the Palestinians. Because Israel will continue to kill whoever is found in Gaza.

My advice to hamas is to disappear forever with the hostages because Israel will never stop until hamas is wiped off, including the yet to be born members of hamas

CHILDREN DETERMINED THAT THEIR PARENTS WILL NOT SLEEP ALSO WILL NOT SLEEP.

Interpretation, keep bombing - happily you are beside them, not an ocean away. You will have to remain awake all night.

Westerhoffe:
That if that's how you're destined to die, you might never see it coming until it happens.

This is not the answer but never mind.

LordReed:
LoLz. Your flunking a simple question has nothing to do with me. DeepSight asked you the same question and you flopped, hard.

If I told you I knew he would not answer the question you might have thought I was joking.
He views it as some sort of trap.

The man cant even see that he is the one who has caused this recognition.

Emusan:
It means all the 20 instances you gave fall to the category of when Jesus became part of the Creation.

Dont you think that is being clever by half?

Because what do thinks like "begotten by God" and "at the right hand side of God" mean?

These are outside creation and yet they show that he is NOT GOD.

Emusan:
Even though this has been addressed many times both here and other places what I want to point out is:

Bible speaks sparingly about Jesus before becoming part of Creation and majorly after became part of Creation.

The ability to distinguish this from the HOLY Scripture already solved this.

What does that conclude please.