₦airaland Forum

Jubrilv:
Peoples president On your mandate we shall stand

That's a slavery song.

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FreeIgboho:
Ok, this is how natural selection explains it. Using turtles again; initially, as with anything, there is variety - some are drawn to darkness, some drawn to loudest sound, etc. Those that survived were only those drawn to light (the ocean). Eventually only turtles naturally drawn to light were born because that's the only trait that survives

And for you, genetic memory then imprints it on the minds of their descendants to be drawn to light at birth right?

This is a speculative attempt with no grounding in reality and it is in fact quite incorrect as per natural selection.

Natural selection is better explained in the case of mutations. Where a specific mutation increases chances of survival then the descendants of the individuals with that mutation are the ones more likely to survive, and so on.

This is altogether different from claiming genetic memory which gives specific instructions on what to do at specific moments in life such as for a homing journey regarding Salmon.

The reason I gave several examples also is to help us think with rigor. So that if you try one excuse in one instance, it must also explain all the other instances for it to be valid. Your excuse is nothing but fanciful imagination with an attempt to bend science towards it.

Your excuse would mean that in the case of pups perhaps there were ancient pups who did not look for the breasts of a mother. And only a few did, and then their descendants began doing that over millions of years from genetic memory. Again, as I said, this is not how genetic memory even works.

FreeIgboho:
It was PERFECTED over millions of years. Lots of the ancestors died so that the ones that survived to breed passed on the traits that aided their survival. Example, sea turtles: they initially went in all directions after birth but the ones that survived were the ones drawn to the light (the ocean) and that gradually got ingrained into species cell memory

Again, easy to write in usual language without thorough thought. Do you imagine that genetic memory is such a thing that is activated in specific moments of life such as at the birth of a sea turtle or at the time salmon begin their homing journeys?

If so, how so? That is not how any genetic memory works. Genetic memory can only go towards natural proclivities, which we may call character - it is not some magical thing that gives you specific instructions on what to do at a specific moment in life which you then faithfully do.

FreeIgboho:
Same exact thing happens with sea turtles.

Some will tell you these things are learnt at CELLULAR level. Instincts that play a crucial role in survival of a species become cell memory and are passed on at a cellular level and perfected over millions of years. This makes the infant do what is necessary for it to survive though it doesn't cognitively know what it is doing.

But like I said, the truth is, like with so many things, we really don't know for sure!

The question still remains how their first ancestors learnt the same thing.

Clearly they had the same behaviour, so it wasn't something learnt over the "millions of years" excuse.

FreeIgboho:
Atheists will just love the video but the truth is that it is DECEPTIVE. It is looking at Jesus from the perspective of his status today.
Durring his walk on earth Jesus had no money, no status, no connections, no position, no wife, no kids, etc, and was totally finished at death, with his closest friends denying they knew him!
Plus his disciples DID write about him and are the source of most things we know of him today!
Above everything peiple constantly testify he is actually alive and active in people's lives today!

Did you listen to it through to the end?

FreeIgboho:
What if the universe itself is infinite? See below

It tires me when cosmologists invent implausible incongruous illogical lies to jump over gaps they can't explain. See that line there that an infinite universe doesn't have to be expanding into something else but could be expanding into itself? Nothing could be more absurd. It defeats the very meaning of the word "expand."

Nothing "expands" into itself.
That is the definition of contraction not expansion.

FreeIgboho -

Food for thought.

CC: LordReed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcZtMhj4Jw

FreeIgboho:
Some would say survival instinct hardwired into their genetic memory over millions of years, but the truth is, like with so many things, in the final analysis, we really don't know!

Its an easy answer to write without thinking. Anyone who thinks properly should first ask how their ancestors had the same instinct, such that they even survived for it to be passed down.

Just to make this clear: let us go back to the beginning of the so called millions of years. To survive, their ancestors must have done the exact same thing at birth. Therefore it's not any "millions of years" that put that instinct there. It was always there.

Lamidi Apapa Youth

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LordReed:
Oh it's cos it's already a memorable day, if not I won't have remembered the exact day.

So what tarnspired that day to "convert" you.

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LordReed:
LoLz. Yeah small boy, big no-god. Bwahahahahahahaha!

But wait. It is rare that one remembers the specific date of his "conversion" to atheism. It tends to be a gradual thing. So what specifically happened that made you remember July 4th as critical in this regard.

The strange life of Samon.

Salmon are renowned for their incredible life cycle, which famously includes a return to their birthplace to reproduce. This phenomenon is known as "homing."

Here's a breakdown of this remarkable journey:

Hatching and Early Life: Salmon begin their lives as eggs, laid in gravel nests (called "redds" ) in the freshwater streams and rivers where their parents were born. After hatching, they go through stages as alevins (with a yolk sac for nourishment) and then fry, eventually developing into parr (juvenile salmon with camouflage markings). They spend varying amounts of time in freshwater, from a few months to several years, depending on the species.

Smoltification and Migration to the Ocean: As they prepare for their ocean journey, young salmon undergo a physiological transformation called "smoltification." This process adapts their bodies to survive in saltwater. They then migrate downstream, often hundreds of miles, to the ocean.

Ocean Life: In the vast expanse of the ocean, salmon spend years feeding and growing, sometimes traveling thousands of miles. They are powerful predators, consuming smaller fish, squid, and other marine life, building up the energy reserves they'll need for their return migration.

The Return Journey (Homing): When they reach sexual maturity, adult salmon embark on their arduous journey back to the very freshwater stream where they were hatched. This "salmon run" is one of nature's most extreme migrations.

Navigation: Scientists believe salmon use a combination of navigation methods. In the open ocean, they may use the Earth's magnetic field like a compass. As they get closer to the coast and the mouth of their natal river, their incredibly sensitive sense of smell plays a crucial role. They are thought to imprint on the unique chemical signature of their home stream when they were young, allowing them to follow that scent back.

Challenges: The upstream migration is incredibly demanding. Salmon stop eating once they enter freshwater, relying solely on their stored fat reserves. They face numerous obstacles, including rapids, waterfalls, predators (bears, eagles, other fish), and human-made barriers like dams. Many do not survive the journey.

Spawning and Death: Upon reaching their natal spawning grounds, females dig new redds and deposit their eggs, which are then fertilized by males. After this final act of reproduction, most Pacific salmon species die. Atlantic salmon, however, have the ability to survive and return to the ocean to spawn again in subsequent years, though this is less common.

This entire cycle ensures the continuation of the salmon species, with the returning adults providing nutrients to the freshwater ecosystems and their offspring beginning the incredible journey anew.
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*Culled


Watch a one minute video of this process here -

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t83dc_kcSGE

Other Examples -

Bird Migration: Many bird species undertake epic journeys spanning thousands of miles, often returning to the exact same breeding or wintering grounds year after year. They do this without maps, GPS, or prior experience, suggesting an inherent sense of direction, likely involving the Earth's magnetic field, celestial cues (sun and stars), and even landmarks. The sheer scale and accuracy of these migrations are truly astonishing.

Spider Web Construction: Spiders, from birth, can spin intricate and complex webs perfectly suited to their hunting style and species, without any instruction. The geometric precision and engineering marvel of these webs, designed to capture prey, demonstrate a deeply ingrained, unlearned behavior.

Sea Turtle Hatchlings Journey to the Ocean: Newly hatched sea turtles emerge from their nests on sandy beaches and instinctively orient themselves towards the ocean, often in the dark. They scramble towards the waves, avoiding predators, without any guidance from their parents. The mechanism by which they detect the ocean's direction is still largely a mystery, though light cues (the brighter horizon over the ocean) are thought to play a role.

Nest Building in Birds: Different bird species build distinct types of nests, from elaborate hanging structures to simple cup-shaped homes, all without being taught. The specific materials they choose, the architectural techniques they employ, and the purpose of the nest (egg incubation, chick rearing) are all ingrained behaviors.

Honeybee "Waggle Dance": When a honeybee finds a rich source of nectar, it returns to the hive and performs a complex "waggle dance." This dance, an innate form of communication, precisely conveys the direction and distance of the food source to other bees, allowing them to locate it efficiently.

Fixed Action Patterns: These are rigid, stereotyped sequences of behaviors that, once triggered, run to completion even if the initial stimulus is removed.

Graylag Goose Egg Retrieval: If a graylag goose's egg rolls out of the nest, she will instinctively use her bill to roll it back. If the egg is removed mid-action, she will still complete the rolling motion with an imaginary egg. This demonstrates a "hardwired" program.

Herring Gull Chick Pecking: Newly hatched herring gull chicks instinctively peck at a red spot on their parent's beak to solicit regurgitated food. This pecking behavior is innate and essential for their feeding.

Dead Bee Removal in Honeybees: If a honeybee dies in a hive, other worker bees will instinctively remove the corpse. This behavior is triggered by a chemical (oleic acid) released by dead bees, rather than a conscious understanding of hygiene.

Marsupial Climb to Pouch: Immediately after birth, a tiny, underdeveloped marsupial (like a kangaroo or opossum) instinctively climbs up its mother's fur to reach her pouch and attach to a nipple, where it continues to develop. This incredible journey is entirely guided by instinct.
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*Culled

plaetton:
Every living creature has or should I say, evolves inbuilt instincts to seek whatever is necessary for its survival.
So I'm not sure what you mean by ' inexplicable' .

Do you assume that adding ' inexplicable ' to a trait confers intelligent design or divine provenance to such a trait?

Its easy to simply just write that. Oh, they evolve the trait for survival.
Have you asked how?

I used two specific examples.
Tell me how exactly the pup knows that there are breasts at all it should seek.
Remember it is new born. It supposedly knows nothing. It has never even seen its mother.

If you say "inbuilt instincts" who or what buillt those instincts.
If you say it was by evolution, how did its ancestors derive that knowledge or instinct as well?

Tell me how exactly the newly hatched turtle knows of the sea. And that it must head there. Remember it is newly hatched.
What did you know two seconds after you were born?

I find it tiresome the way strict materialist evolutionists just use easy language to dismiss real questions. They evolve instincts for survival. I said how, in these instances. Tell how. Its so easy to just say.

Tell how.

PS: There is actually a suitable answer to this question. I want to see if you put your finger on it and we can discuss from there.

LordReed:
As the United States celebrates their Independence Day, I join them to celebrate my independence from religion which occurred on this day seven years ago. Looking forward to the next seven.

Happy Independence to me!

What? You mean you be small pikin like this? Only seven years old as an atheist? Wonders shall never cease. I could have sworn you must have been at least two decades in this grisly business.

FreeIgboho:
Remember we have consistently qualified the discussion with:
"If the universe were all that exists "

Well I dont believe it is all that exists. I believe it is a merely physical construct in a larger reality which also harbors near infinite dimensions and planes of existence.

LordReed -

What tells newly born puppies to look for the breasts of a mother they have never seen and still cant see?
What tells new born turtles born on a beach to head to the sea once hatched?

Tell me.

On this thread, I intend to cite many examples of inexplicable instinct - inexplicable if the strict materialist random and evolutionary wordview holds true.

FreeIgboho / Wirinet / Plaetton

FreeIgboho:
These kind of discussions have to be qualified because you don't know what you don't know that you don't know and you don't know what constraints were placed on your brain so you have to always say from what perspective. If you place God within this system of things then it becomes quite a legitimate question to ask where God came from or who created God

We have strayed too far from the topic of this thread. Create a new one on these matters and invite myself and LordReed there.

FreeIgboho:
I'm saying God is not involved in this "nothing" we are discussing. I'll give an illustration: if this universe were a simulation in a computer, from the perspective of those within the simulation what existed before the simulation was launched is non-existence - unimaginable nothing. But outside the computer a whole "spirit world" of totally different reality exists which is where we locate God. What we are concerned with is world within the computer reality. And in that reality what existed before the simulation was launched was nothing - from perspective of those within the simulation.

I really cant see the problem you are trying to create, especially since you qualified it with the bold.

LordReed:
½ - 1 - ½

Keeping my weight steady.

At first I thought you were writing an equation to resolve the conundrum of existence.
Oh well, it jolly well might be.

FreeIgboho:
Of course there is absence of existence. Just because you can't imagine absence of a cup does not mean there is no absence of a cup (you can imagine a cup but not "no cup"}. God has to exists in an entirely different dimention or system of things outside what we are discussing

Absence of all existence is nothing. I repeat: there is nothing like nothing. And since something cannot come from nothing, the fact that anything exists is proof of the existence of an eternal and self existent something - which is what God is.

FreeIgboho:
😅It's like saying "does.not exist" does not exist. That "does not exist" is what is called nothing. It is absence of any existence and is impossible to imagine because anything you imagine is something!

Good - therefore understand that there is nothing like nothingness. There is only somethingness. Infact, this is one of the fundamental logical proofs of the existence of GOD - the eternal and self-existent something.

FreeIgboho:
Thanks.
I would say you actually defined what you say scientists call time which is indeed a continuum and which of course cannot exist without the universe if the universe is all that exists.

The word you are looking for is "nothing". That's what exists before the universe if the universe is all that exists. Once you introduce something you have infinite void (void of that thing you just introduced). You can't have void if nothing exists, just as you can't have up without down. Therefore if the universe is all that exists it can be said that infinite void ("empty space"} was created by the universe coming into existence.

The problem is there is noting like nothing. Nothingness, by definition, does not exist.

LordReed:
Dude don't be so pedantic. It is only one aspect of the nature of the universe so I wasn't asking you go look up the whole thing.

Alright, alright alright, alright.

Publish a paper telling us what it is expanding into so I can see my guy the Nobel prize winner. LoLz.

No need. I have already said it. It is expanding into already existent space. Naturally. Logically.

The thing is you must acknowledge that it is illogical to say that it is expanding into nothing.

FreeIgboho:
Thanks.
In that case then "real time" is NOT a continuum. So are you withdrawing your previous definition of time?

"Infinite void" is simply another way of saying nothing. It is introduction of something that turns it into Infinite void. If nothing exists then "Infinite void" makes no sense

As I explained, words are a challenge. I would stick with "continuum" for time though, in the sense that I explained it, and will even also use it for space in the same sense - namely that they continue to exist being self existent. Note that this is a very different sense from the moving time perception that many have when they use the same word.

As for void, I already offered alternatives such as "expanse."

LordReed:
I didn't ask you to look up the nature of the universe as a whole. We are talking of what the universe is expanding into so I say look it up and you think I was asking you to look up the nature of the universe? C'mon man.

Well it is still the nature of the universe. But as regards that question I am sure you know it is the sort of thing I would have studied over ages.

Generally they will tell you that it's not expanding into anything which is nonsensical. They will tell you to think of the universe as a balloon and that space is only created inside the balloon as it is blown up. This is absurd because that balloon would never get bigger in size if there wasn't space outside the balloon to accommodate it.

FreeIgboho:
Thanks.
In that case then "real time" is NOT a continuum. So are you withdrawing your previous definition of time?

"Infinite void" is simply another way of saying nothing. It is introduction of something that turns it into Infinite void. If nothing exists then "Infinite void" makes no sense

One struggles with words in existential matters. When I say continuum, I don't mean that it is moving. It is just there, but the fact that it will forever continue being there is the sense in which it is a continuum.

Also I understand what you mean by infinite void being problematic. It's just for want of better words. I really mean infinite space but that will amount to using the same word to define itself. We can think of a better word. Perhaps expanse, extent or latitude.

FreeIgboho:
Thanks 4 your quick response. Are you then saying that eternal now is not time?

Somehow I would not have suspected you of being profound enough to use the phrase "eternal now." It is a very profound term because the truth is that whereas people have this perception that time moves, it in fact does not move anywhere. It is events that occur within its stillness and it is the difference between those events that we record as passing time. Time as a dimension of motion is therefore what scientists refer to as time. It is not real time. Real time is like one single eternal moment.

As for space, that "void" is called nothing (though you can't imagine it), and isn't it existence of something that turned that nothing into space?

Again, well done. Because that infinite void which we call space is very tempting to see as nothingness and yet it is not nothing.

FreeIgboho:
Erudite and well-written. Kudos. However, I have to say your position on time and space have to start with definition of time and space. Depending on that definition, if the universe is all that exists then it can be said that existence of the universe is what created time and space. So please what exactly do you mean by time and space?

Thank you.

Time is the continuum into which events are interpolated.
Space is the void into which things are interpolated.

Kukutente23:
This is really good news
This is one of the things the calamitous APC robbed us of for 8 years after promising heaven and earth
Now they are back to paint this as if they are performing a miracle
Very incompetent lots them!

One can't quantify the loss and the stress that they put people through with that singular meaningless decision.

LordReed:
Dude do you want to count how many times you've asked me to look something up? So now it is a bad thing bah? LoLz.

Alright. Well I imagine if I ask you to look something up, it's a specific thing. Asking me to look up the broad subject of the nature of the universe is quite different as it touches on various things including quantum physics.

Anyway pardon me there. Now, let me go the to the issues.

You see, my friend, there are all too many things that strict materialists tend to skip over when hard scientific questions are being posed on existential matters. If you point a strict evolutionist to the logical gaps in the theory of evolution they tend to wave it all away by pointing to the millions and millions of years that the process took - even where it is clear that not even eternity would suffice to remedy the logical gaps pointed out. In the same way when very serious logical gaps are pointed out to strict materialists in terms of the prevailing cosmic model of the origin and nature of the universe, they tend to quickly drop the excuse you just did - namely that what comes to us intuitively breaks down at a quantum level etc. it's generally escapist. When you speak of the fundamental principles of causality for example (without which no rational discussion can ever be had) they will tell you that causality breaks down at the quantum level. What is their evidence for this? Generally they will point to virtual particles in a quantum vacuum as proof that something can emerge from nothing. This of course fails because not even a quantum vacuum is nothing. It contains low gaseous pressure and so of course the argument fails. Nonetheless they will leave the matter at that, since they have dropped the word "quantum" believing that that word is a get of jail free card. It is not. This is specifically why I said your excuse was way to often used.

Let us just settle down and look at the prevailing cosmic model of the universe. We are told that the universe had a beginning. That it expanded from the point of a singularity with the big bang. No one of course properly defines what exactly that singularity was. We move on nonetheless. But you see, so long as a singularity existed, and there was a moment when an expansion commenced, that was an event. And events only happen within a timeline.

The problem here is that the prevailing model says that time and space were both created at the moment of the big bang. This is absurd because the bang being an event, could only possibly occur within an already existing timeline. This means that time already existed. Furthermore the very fact of expansion itself tells us that the expanding singularity was expanding into something. There is no such thing as nothingness anywhere in existence and there is no perfect void or vacuum as well. Therefore the expansion could only be happening into already existing space. It is utterly incoherent, incongruous and meaningless to say it is expanding into nothing, or it is just expanding without there being any space to expand into. That fails.

Accordingly we can tell that both time and space pre-exist the universe. This is why I feel it is wrong to claim that the universe is all that exists. Time and space exist before and beyond it. Both time and space are eternal and infinite and self existent by their very nature. They are part of the default components of reality.

So if we return to the fundamental question as to whether you can know anything outside the universe, there is alot to discuss. But I must warn you again about this question of saying that this universe is all that exists. At sometime, people may have said the same of the solar system or of our Milky Way Galaxy. People may have thought that our galaxy was the universe. Likewise in time we may well find other universes beyond this one.

When I gave you the imagery of the womb and the sea recall that I said I was leaving you with images. I didn't mean them as exact analogies the way you began to take them by saying that the baby and the fish cannot reason. I was taken aback by that which is why I said "Sweet Jesus." I was only presenting you with imagery of beings that dwell in a space where they cannot know or understand that other life and spaces exist beyond their realm.

LordReed:
LoLz. See this is where your intuitions will fail you. You think these is an outside but there isn't at least not one you or anybody can demonstrate. I am not well versed in cosmology to explain it to you, look it up to get a better handle on it.

I am not looking anything up - three reasons. One, I dont need to. Two. This is such a lame excuse too often used. Three. I never expected such a line from you of all people.

Having Lunch. Will be back.