₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
I'll give it to you but strictly speaking these aren't denials which is why Christians can claim that Jesus is god via the Trinity doctrine. However to be clear I do agree that Jesus is not the god.

Look at the red highlights. Those are clear denials.
Or must it be in a specific format such as "I hereby deny that I am God?"

Babatunjo:
Looks older than his age. Also wiser than his age. Odogwu

Yes looks older, thats for sure. Wiser, I cant comment.

LordReed:
Where in the Bible does Jesus deny he is god?

I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

Kukutente23:

All these votes you're sharing diaris Godu ooo

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Oscarchims:
You did same with PPA, even APC was formed with same scenario... Make we dey watch una, all of una na d same. Such a shame that Nigeria keeps falling into the hands of bad leaders

Just imagine the pot calling the kettle black. Hypocrites.

LordReed:
Well then I call it the universe and have no reason to think of it as a god or a type of being.

I think I may have touched on this point with you in the past, so at the risk of repeating myself - the source of all things cannot be physical. This is because -

1. The source of all things must be eternal in the past
2. A thing which is eternal in the past must be immutable
3. Physical things - such as the universe - are mutable
4. Therefore the source of all things must be intangible
5. Ergo the universe cannot be the source of all things

I suspect this may be problematic for you - but its very simple and logical really.

1. I do not know what a god is supposed to be. Most people say they are beings but the attributes dissolve into incoherence so it is not clear to me what a god is suppose to be.

Here's a trick - start from simplicity and dont bother yourself with what "most people say." And in all simplicity, the most fundamental definition of God is that of creator or source of all else that exists.

2. A being in the way we a talking about it here is an existing individual with a mind and will. So the sun may exist but is not a being. Humans, animals and potentially other forms of life we do not yet know about but have these 3 attributes are beings.

Do you consider that that microscopic organisms can be beings? They certainly can fit into your tripartite conditions. Now, lets take it further. Is it not the case that groups of microscopic and even unicellular organisms come together to form multicellular beings? You yourself, in terms of your body, are an agglomeration of trillions of different kinds of cells, each of which has staggering components and factors built into it. Now one step further again - when you talk about a mind and will - is there not such a thing as a hive mind? A group mind and will, as happens with say, ants or bees? Now one step further again, so you see where I am going - if all this is true, why is it necessarily the case that God as a being must be an individual in the way we understand and use the word?

LordReed:
Well he said IF and I am willing to grant the supposition. Interpreting it as accent to the belief will be a failure of reasoning on the persons part not mine.

Actually it does argue in favour of it. It is modern believers who have turned their god into some unimaginable thing. The Old Testament had the god appear on the earth physically several times.

The point is if we are to presume all that is in the Bible to be true, we should also presume true the many passages that outrightly deny the idea that Jesus is God. Including his own denials of same.

LordReed:
If there was evidence they did, most likely i would.

Be kiaful oh. No go march banana peel.

Even if everything written in the Bible were true, it would not ground Jesus being God. The self same Bible argues powerfully against the precept in dozens of passages.

LordReed:
Dude answer the question first before you ask me one.

Alright. To be clear, here is your question -

You didn’t answer the question "why call it a god"?

Because the most critical aspect of the definition of, and understanding of the word "God" throughout history has been that which is the source of all other existence and life.

I extract herewith a definition from the dictionary -

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

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god
noun
ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
pluralgods
Synonyms of god
1
God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a
: the being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …
—Jame Schaefer
… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.
—Sunita Pant Bansal
b
Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4
: a powerful ruler
Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates

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You can see the very first line which I have highlighted. No matter how you spin it, and no matter all the thousands of ridiculous attributes which different people add to it, the fundamental idea has always been that of an ultimate creator or source of all else that exists. There. That is why such a source is called "God."

Now can you answer my own questions so we can get down to the issue of it being a "being."
Those questions are not to argue - they are only to get definitions right so we dont get twisted as we did with objective and subjective morality.

AMINDA:
You may now try to play the victim and attempt to rewrite history but the sequence of events are well documented for posterity.

The North generally keep their word and maintain a pact until betrayed. When Elrufai put his neck on the line and insisted for power to return to the South, you all cheered him as a hero. When he went along with Tinubu to Arewa House in Kaduna and made the famous speech that Northerners will keep their word as was the legacy of Sardauna, Balewa and Aminu Kano, you all cheered him. When he openly became defiant against Aso Rock cabal inspiring millions of young Northerners to vote Tinubu despite naira policy and other landmines, he was an angel.

Tinubu won largely with 5.6m votes from the North and first thing he did was to treacherously humiliate Elrufai before the NA in a most undignified manner. He instigated Elrufai's successor Uba Sani to go against his benefactor and openly took sides. The reverse was the case in Rivers. Elrufai suddenly became the "butcher of Kaduna". Look at you even doubling down on that with the lies told about Elrufai and Southern Kaduna without any clue of historical contexts of the crisis that pre-dates Elrufai by decades. How sad! He immediately sidelined Shettima and banished him from the villa after attempts to exile him to a so-called VP house failed. He cornered every appointments for the Lagos bloc of the SW and completely disregarded other regions in a most nepotistic and brazen manner.

SW began to gloat of how Tinubu outsmarted the North and deceived them that he was sick. They said Northerners voted for Tinubu only because they thought he would die and Shettima would take over. What an insult! Two years into his tenure and in a most insulting manner, Tinubu is openly talking about replacing Shettima and has even betrayed another loyal Northern ally, Ganduje to bring in Kwankwaso. Just like with Elrufai, Kwankwaso is now enjoying praises but Northerners know he would immediately become the villain if Tinubu wins. It is this treachery that is now costing Tinubu politically and making even Kwankwaso to drag feet about accepting Tinubu's offer. Instead of seeing people as partners like Buhari saw Osinbajo, he only sees them as vehicles for his ambition.

Tinubu betrayed the SW by destroying the Northern pact with the North and the North will now seek an alliance with the East while leaving room for future reconciliation with trustworthy Omoluabis like Aregbesola and Osinbajo. The coalition will eventually bring other noble sons of the SW like Fashola into prominence. Unlike Tinubu who has banished and retired them by smearing their legacies and branding them as "betrayers".

Well written. It is important to keep stock of crucial facts and events in the build up to where we are.

FreeIgboho:
I'm trying my very best not to call you slow but you're not helping at all.
(Patiently) Those are attributes traditionally assigned to God by MAN! Go read the OP, it is clearly stated there. Whew!

Here's another excerpt from the OP:

5) So how do you know God? The ONLY way is the way it happened with Jesus. ANYONE that all those things happened with is God the Son of God. You can't know him any other way. You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!

You are free to call me slow, I don't mind.

So let's start again. Are you saying you can know the attributes of God through Jesus Christ?

FreeIgboho:
Did you read the OP of this thread at all? Why not go back and read the whole thing? Here's an excerpt:

2) You don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are. So forget all the attributes you have in your head - they were assigned by man. You simply don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are or are not. So forget all attributes you assign to God!

3) If God is explained to you as straight forward and quite uncomplicated, you can be sure they are giving u man's version of God, NOT God as he is.

4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.

If the foregoing is true how come you seem to know what God's attributes are?

FreeIgboho:
Are you just joking or what?

Joking?

Omnipotence - Jesus said he can do nothing without the one who sent him.

Omniscience - Jesus said he does not know the day and hour, only the Father knows it.

Never prays - Jesus prayed all the time, especially at Gethsemane when he said "not as I will but as thou wilt."

Who is joking?

FreeIgboho:
Maybe we ought define what we mean by attributes. If someone says you're a thief, that's not an attribute of yours. Same way if someone calls your ma a ho or beats up your child. Pertaining to God, attributes we assign him are obvious - omnipotence, omniscience, never prays,

So you know the attributes of God?
I hope you now those three attriutes in bold are incompatible with Jesus?

After all the IMF policies.
We said it over and over again.

Dumb folk keep imagining IMF policies are any good.

FreeIgboho:
1. We believe the Bible is essentially true. That's what the thread is based on. If you believe the Bible is a pack of lies then we don't have a thread.
2. My belief is NOT based on just what he himself said and did, but on what was said about him long before he was born, the special events surrounding his birth, how he was worshipped as an infant by people with spiritual insight, and finally what has happened with him since his death and resurrection.

You have not addressed the contradiction: if the attributes of God cannot be known, how can you use any attributes of Jesus (including prophecy about him, people worshipping him, etc) to conclude he is God?

Lithiumite:
The pdp ticket is now available for obi and I see him getting it.....he will be lured and if I were him,I would go for it.....PDP would give obi what lp couldn't

The same PDP that Wike is in charge of right? Kwantinue joking.

LordReed:
You still haven't answered my question.

BTW all these just adds to the incoherence.

Alright. Lets examine a number of things first.

1. Must a God be a being in the way we understand beings?
2. What is a being in the first place? What qualifies as a being?

LordReed:
You didn’t answer the question "why call it a god"? Calling the sun a god didn’t make it a being, it remained what it is so what does calling this source of everything a god change?

But you surely know that in several world views such objects are considered living beings.

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Panpsychism: This is the most direct and widely used term in contemporary philosophy for the view that mind or a mind-like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It posits that consciousness or subjective experience is present, in some form, in a wide range of natural entities, including those traditionally considered inanimate, such as fundamental particles.

Hylozoism: This philosophical doctrine holds that all matter is alive or animated. While closely related to panpsychism, hylozoism often emphasizes the "life" aspect of matter, whereas panpsychism focuses more specifically on "mind" or "consciousness." Historically, early Greek philosophers like Thales are often described as hylozoists.

Animism: This term is primarily used in anthropology of religion to describe belief systems where objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, etc.—as being animated, having agency and free will. While it shares the idea of "aliveness" or "spirit" in inanimate objects with hylozoism and panpsychism, it is generally discussed within a religious or spiritual context rather than as a purely philosophical theory of consciousness.

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*Culled.

Lithiumite:
The truth is there was no money to keep paying subsidy and this govt in their wisdom thought it best to end it and stop borrowing for that.....bring it to a minimum u say,u really underestimate the capacity of Nigerians to steal.....why get head ache over a problem you can just end and forget about.

It is absolutely untrue that there was no money - like I said, cut the absurd corruption out, and it would be afforddable - especially in lght of the ridiculous budget and supplementary budgets we have seen so far.

Lithiumite:
Which would you choose as a leader if not the easier option ..that's smart if I must say ....for dangote to come out and cry about how formidable the oil cabal is,then you know it's no easy feat.i just gave you an instance of America not being able to wipe out narcotics snuggling despite their level of sophistication.

I didnt say wipe out - significant reduction is all that was needed. Also payment for subsidy was done by government so its very different from narcotics which are not paid for by the government. When you control the payment over something, you are Lord and Master and can easily deal with those who are corrupt if you want to - especially if you are president and have the entire law enforcement and security apparatus at your fingertips!

Look, subsidy was less than N300 Billion at a pont not that long ago. For it to balloon to over N7 Trillion was black magic and a seriosu govt could address that. So no one should say BAT was bold. He was cowardly. He went after the vulnerable ony.

Rexymania:
I don't want to waste my data. Who did he name?
Make him dey play

I don't see Tinubu ruling Nigeria beyond 2027

He named Atiku.

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LordReed:
Except they go further and add all these attributes to the god such that even when speaking amongst themselves they cannot agree on what the god(s) are.

I have to agree. This is the problem. So much so that they even add the most petty human attributes such as jealousy and anger.

BTW why call the source of all things a god (anthropomorphised one at that).

The source of all things can indeed be called God thats not a problem. The problem us anthropormorphising it.

The sun is the source of heat and energy for our solar system does that make it a god?

It was considered a god in a great many cultures.

Why can't the source of all things just be some natural phenomenon?

Remember I told you that for me, even God can only be natural. Being the deault state of root reality.

LordReed:
The bolded is why I am an Igtheist. The concept of gods in general is incoherent. It is baby talk trying to masquerade as serious thought.

If by God we mean a source of all else that exists, that is not incoherent, and that is the fundamental idea most people have in mind when they speak of God.

Nothing happened is the point. Those things are just embellished stories.

Agreed.

FreeIgboho:
You can respond VERY briefly.
What would it take to convince you that someone is God (bearing in mind that you don't have the foggiest idea what/who God is nor can you in any way describe him or any of his attributes).
Personally, if ALL that happened with Jesus happens with ANY person I'd accept that the person is God.

1. How do you verify what happened with Jesus?
2. Since you say we can have no clue what God's attributes are, why would you then accept any miracle worker to be God? That means you know God's attributes.

Lithiumite:
How? Something 5 successive govts were unable to do...the best thing was to end it and stop the sleaze.... almighty America hasn't been able to stop narcotics snuggling despite fighting it for several decades....how do you want to stop people especially Nigerians not to steal.

It could always be reduced to the minimum with political will. Your hero claimed to be bold by removing it. That was cowardly. Because he could only face the poor and deal ruthlessly with them. He could not face the wealthy corrupt and deal ruthlessly with them.

Slytiger:
FACT CHECK: Is it true that Tinubu has not slept in any other state apart from Lagos as Peter Obi claimed?



https://dailytrust.com/fact-check-is-it-true-that-tinubu-has-not-slept-in-any-other-state-apart-from-lagos-as-peter-obi-claimed/

This still just means that in two years you can ony point to one night spent in Katsina other than Lagos.

Lithiumite:
.you need to look at the cause factor for the inflation,do you expect something different after naira devaluation and subsidy removal?

Out GDP is just being rebased due to the naira devaluation and our growth outlook is about
3% which is still our average since 99.

Things would have been a lot worse if we were still paying subsidies and defending the naira.....tinubu has set a goal of $1 trillion GDP and that's a really bold and ambitious plan.... We can but gradually

How do you now things would have been worse. The problem with the subsidy regime was not the subsidy itself but the governmental corruption in the management of it. That is what should have been rooted out.

Image123:
No Brentton Woods here i guess, we only use these things when they support our bias.

So prices of commodities and GDP are emotional things? Well done.

Image123:
i wonder what you'd conclude when i physically supported GEJ at the first, and later PMB.

The problem is the kind of absolutist support that sees no evil and hears no evil.

Image123:
Can i have your definition which the Bible gives? Is Daniel saying no idolatry a definition of your resist? Did Paul faithfully support Nero by praying for him?

Your scripture says dont resist. You said that is your creed. Its simple.
Stop adding to it.

Lithiumite:
Ask for the stats on foreign reserves
Debt to revenue ratio
Oil out put
Trade surpluses versus deficits

Then we can talk.

Then we can talk

What is wrong with simply looking at the GDP in 2015 and the GDP now.
And commodity prices in 2015 and commodity prices now?