₦airaland Forum

Workch:
what do you mean by something cannot come from nothing?

The final question will now be "if there should an uncreated creator then why can't it be the universe?"

Why can't you just stop at "I don't know"? Instead do making stuffs up

LordReed:
Its not nothing that's the point, at least not one that can be assigned any properties.

KnownUnknown:
Once upon a time the thought of people living at the antipodes made some people laugh because their understanding of gravity was crude. No matter how counterintuitive and illogical you find it, it does not mean its untrue. What's the direction of up in space? Is "up" the same direction at the north pole and the south pole?

Human language is limited compared to the complexity of the universe and our need to describe it. The paucity of human language is one of the reasons people assume physical laws are like human laws and it's why it's' difficult to fathom this "expansion".

KnownUnknown:
Change is what gives rise to time.

Time is an emergent property of a changing universe

Time is not uniform as explained by relativity and put to practical use in the creation of satellites and the likes. The rate of change that gives rise to time depends on mass and speed. The movie Interstellar sheds a lot of light on how time works.

LordReed:
There are somethings that are counterintuitive in the world of physics, doesn't stop it from being the case.

Just google "what is the universe expanding into", you'll get more scientific explanations than what I can muster with my layman terminology.

LordReed:
The current understanding is it is just expanding, there is no something it is expanding into. Yeah its counterintuitive but that is as far as out current understanding goes. One of the reasons i guess is because there is no light or any form of energy returning from what would have been the boundary of the universe.

Oladimeji247:
"It's obvious" is another problematic thought. It's obvious as well that the Sun orbits the Earth.

Oladimeji247:
I think you need to support such a broad claim. Do you know that nothing has always been nonexistent?


. . . . Again, you need to support your claim about nothingness.

"He exists because he has to exist" is not a cogent argument. Support this point without recursive thinking or special pleading, please.

TammieJo:
LOL. Where do I even begin, Mr DeepSight?

wirinet:
The annoying thing is that the babe no even fine. His previous girlfriends were way finer.

wirinet:
Sorry to say, but you never experience life. I have seen and experience a lot. Some babes are nymphomaniac, they just want your D and nothing else. Some are even ready to pay for a good D.

Some pussy be like magnet. Once to enter am once, e go just dey attract you. Na only deliverance so save you. If you like enter 100 other pussies, that particular one na im go dey hungry you. You think say men wey de dash babes cars or house dey craze? Or N50,000 pussies no yapa for universities or streets?

I had a friend who boasted he was a player until he enter the toto of one small 17 year old girl. You go think say the girl dey use jazz on the guy. He abandoned all other girlfriends and even we guys. Him rent house for the babe and furnish it. Las Las the babe dey bring other guys come the house to knack. When my friend catch the babe, the babe pursue my friend comot for the house him dey pay house rent. My friend cry from Lagos until him reach Ife. We were student of OAU then.

Even though my guy is a big boy in America now, him still neva forget the babe.

Oladimeji247:
If we accept (and I do) that QM shows acausal results but still relies upon exigencies (say, the existence of energy), well, that means any creator is still reliant upon a substrate .

So if this creator is inside the Universe, then it's subject to QM.

If it isn't reliant upon QM and a substrate, if it is indeed "outside space and time", well, there's another baseless claim.

Near1:
Then explain where the first cause came from.

Dodgy. Thus far scientists don't knows this for sure. We still have a so much more to learn so you're using an argument from ignorance. You could answer honestly with the phrase most physicists use...."We don't know."

Back to square one then. Where did the Maker of Stuff come from?

Oladimeji247:
If there's no such thing as nothing, then this "creator" had something from which to form up, meaning that it isn't causeless, which removes a crucial plank of your point. And if it did come from nothing, then another one of your premises is removed from the discussion.

TammieJo:
Personally, I think the jury is still out on how adaptive human consciousness really is. Blind evolution does make mistakes, and we've only been around for a short while evolutionarily. We seem well-adapted for the short run, but I'm not so sure about the long run.

In my informed opinion, I am a strictly material/physical creature. Consciousness is both emergent and virtual. Do you understand the idea of emergence? So anything "spiritual" would necessarily be cognitive or virtual as well from my point of view.

Near1:
^^^^^^^ A whole lot of claims made with no support. You're about as agnostic on creation as the pope. Ha! It is to laugh!

Near1:
Wow, your attempts at sarcasm are even more pathetic than your attempts at intellectual discourse. It's actually embarrassing.

Very good then. I'll settle for three (it's a nice, meaningful number) valid meanings of the word spiritual.

And then, if you'd be so kind, a further explanation of what it means to be spiritually lazy and what is the opposite of such laziness.
Not that word salad about bestirring oneself inwardly, if you don't mind.

Unlike you, the vast majority of people do not speak gibberish. However "intellectual" it might sound to the intellectually poor.

Near1:
Au contraire, mon ami. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Once again, you have two choices 1) A Maker came from nothing. 2) The universe came from nothing.

Which is it gonna be? Something somewhere at some time came from nothing so you're stuck and don't want to admit it.

Near1:
To the bolded: That is nurture. Not nature.

To the italicized: You're going down a very deep rabit hole and begging the question. If Something made everything happen at the beginning of spacetime, where did that Something come from? Did that Something come from nothing? It's turtles all the way down. At some point something DID come from nothing. Your choice is: 1) A Maker came from nothing. 2) The universe came from nothing. Pick which one. As with most things the simplicity of Occam's Razor fits best. The universe popped into existance naturally without a middleman, a maker, a something causing it to happen.

Near1:
Do enlighten us about five of these numerous valid contexts, please,

now that we're in your exalted, spiritually hard-working presence, please.

smallsmall:
Lagos has always been a large economy, from its days as Federal Capital, with a lot of National Assets like Ports, Airport, etc.
Lagos also occupies a unique geographical location with access to the Atlantic ocean.
The Large and urban Population of Lagos is also an asset Lagos has, like no other State.

With all these, it is not rocket science that Lagos will generate a lot of IGR, far-far higher than nay other state in Nigeria, though, other states of the federation also have their own unique capability to generate IGR.

The question Lagos, under Tinubu's stewardship, needs to answer are:
1) How much of the Lagos IGR goes into Tinubu's private Pocket, through his Front Companies like Alpha Beta
2) How much of it has been diverted to his family members, like his daughter (Iyaloja of Lagos), his in-laws and other cronies?
3) How much of the IGR of Lagos has Tinubu surrendered to his Army of URchins and street Thugs, so he can keep using them to rig elections for himself and his anointed cronies and to foment violence on the working population of Lagos?
4) The recent deadly violence around Lagos island, is traceable to this issue of IGR, between Tinubus' Thugs in that part of town and how he has turned most Young men in the South West into Low-life Thugs who terminate human life at will, just to enrich the Tinubu Dynasty.

But we must give him credit because it takes a smart, criminal mindset to turn a whole Region of educated and enlightened people into a killing field of lazy, uneducated, Drug-infested Sreet urchins, Children that sell the Properties their Parents laboured for, just to fund their Drug habits.
That is the legacy of Tinubu in the South West.... and hopefully, Nationally.

Fashola, is by a Million Miles, the Best Governor of Lagos State since 1999 and we all remember the "war" between Tinubu and Fashola, when Tinubu tried to deny Lagosians of the service of that performing Governor, because Tinubu wanted to install another of his lackeys.

What was the cause of the acrimony? Tinubu was demanding for larger and larger percentage of Lagos IGR, to the point that the Governor was unable to discharge his duties to Lagosians. Ifnot that Lagosians threatened to vote for the opposition, Tinubu would just have thrashed Fashola and installed another Lackey that would be allowing him to pocket 85% of Lagos IGR and income.

For the position, situation and natural gifts of Lagos (People and structures), Lagos is "a very rich country" in itself but Tinubu has relocated the Treasury of Lagos in his House and he uses the Governors he appoints to direct the income of Lagos to his pocket.

Taxing the people of Lagos more is not a big deal, any authoritarian Leader can do that but the question is whether the Citizens are getting commensurate benefits for being taxed to the hilt or whether a large portion of their Tax is being stolen by their overlord?
this is the question Tinubu's lackeys online cannot answer.

WATCHOVER:
This is what the OP want to hear that why he decided to be asking irrelevant questions and I decided not to answer because all did their own part, and just like the Bible where some claimed Paul was the greatest and others for Apollo

TammieJo:
We humans feel we should be more important than we are, thus the search for meaning. To me, that seems like a trick of perception due to our subjectivities.

Since I value realism and try to be accurate, I often cringe at, and avoid using the word "spiritual" out of a concern that it will be misconstrued, as it has by many I have encountered -- at least more than most words. Now i'm curious. I would be interested to hear what you think are valid ideas of spirituality.

CocaineLord:
I'll never forget the day I initiated a conversation on Astronomy & Celestial bodies with a certain nigerian girl...She was so lost and uninterested

TammieJo:
Whazzat mean, spiritually lazy?

killyaselfie:
Neither am I interested in your unfounded claims.
Put away the scientific American article too, because the article on theoretical physics doesn’t support your delusions of “extra physical space”.
You are one step removed from the “energies, wave, frequency, matrix” types.

killyaselfie:
The vastness of the universe and my existence on our pale blue dot is what informs my humility and precludes me from creating gods. Again, what is there to be agnostic about?

What the hell is god except the entity created by man as the originator of the universe they barely understand.

I don’t assume anything. You might not be religious but you believe in the “time and space outside the universe” where the “something” that is “at the root of reality” exists.
You create a god, then claim agnosticism.

TammieJo:
Sorry for the late response

I might have you wrong here but it sounds to me as if you're giving a god credit for completely natural processes.

The mind of a new baby is a blank slate when it comes to religion. Are you going to argue that there's an imprinted code that makes babies predisposed to religious belief?

Also, why would said baby always have the imprinted cultural code of whatever brand of horseshit is prevalent in that given geographical region?

It seems to me that you are essentially inferring that something cannot come from nothing therefore "magic" happened.

This reference to a deity "outside of space and time" is rather very disengenuous to be honest. In ancient times gods lived on mountain tops, some lived in the dark forest or on the other side of the desert or deep in the ocean or up in the clouds. But when people didn't find them existing in those places they had to push their god further away into other mysterous unknown places. These days theists and all other god proponents have have moved this god so far away he is now "outside of space and time" which is essentially a nice safe, completely unknowable, totally made up fantasy place for a god to reside.

TammieJo:
@DeepSight

If one is going to say that somehow religiosity is a part of the human psyche, and that gives it some authority, don't you think s/he gets to tell us how all the very bizarre human religions tie together?

killyaselfie:
I think people are “agnostic” because they can’t quite shed their indoctrination.
What is there to be agnostic about?
God(s) only exists in the pages of books and it only speaks in the pages of books or through the mouths of other humans
It is not going to appear and speak to people like it does in the pages of books. It never speaks audibly to anyone. It won’t have an audience with multiple people. It is wholly dependent on belief.

They say the Lord God created the “heavens and the earth”. An utterly senseless statement given the earth’s position in the cosmos.

I can easily say the Lord Voldemort created the “heavens and Planet X” and it would make as much sense as what’s in religious books.

The only difference is that Voldemort is a profane fictional character while God is a scared fictional character. But once you realize that the sacred is nonsense, then God is as real a Voldemort.

I can create a sacred book, make Voldemort the “higher power” and create a religion around it.

People who believe in Voldemort would be Phaeists.

People who don’t believe in Voldemort would be Aphaeists.

People who are not sure about the existence of Voldemort/ voldemorts will be Agnostic.

Meanwhile, I’ll be in the corner counting my money muttering to myself, “Voldemort my ass”

If your god isn’t a character in religious lore, then you probably created it along with all its supernatural attributes.

Again, what’s there to be agnostic about? You created something in your mind and claim agnosticism?

I create gods in my mind but I’m not agnostic about their existence, so I’m definitely not agnostic about the god that came out of someone else’s mind. And it doesn’t matter how long ago the god was created or how many “believers” it has. Bullshit is just bullshit.

Stargurl20:
There's something I've noticed about men. They can be so unforgiving when it comes to their wives or gf's unfaithfulness. I'm not justifying this. Trust me, I'm not. But I've seen lot of cases where women would forgive the husband and forget. Why is it hard for men to forgive?

I mean, if God uses all our sins to judge or punish us in this life, I believe no one will remain in existence. Why can't a mere mortal man also develop this forgiving spirit?