₦airaland Forum

But i thought God was the same yesterday, today and forever?

Why would he change the rules halfway?

If Abbie could be saved by faith and good works, then surely my red indian today can be saved as well.

God is perfect. He does not change.

P.S: I like the new tone of your posts, now we are actually learning from each other!

That is the way it should be!

Adaku, i am really serious, you have to respond to my marriage proposal one way or the other.

@ Agent-X, back off, she's mine, i am warning you o.

Romans 4 IS ABOUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS.

It clearly shows that faith in God justifies (not necessarily knowldge of christ, because Abraham did not know Jesus).

Romans 4 actually supports my argument! Abraham was saved!

Without Christ, but through his faith in GOD!

Now remember what i said about a red indian who belived in God and did good works all his life?

Like Aabraham he will be saved!

Without even knowing of Jesus!

So you see for God, its the heart that counts!

davidylan:
Read Genesis. They never heard of Christ too but there were certain who lived a morally upright life . . . God was faithful to them.
.

Excellent. Some improvement. So you now accept its possible to be morally upright without church or mosque!!!

Very good, very good, there is hope yet.

@ Davidylan -

I make a point of debating clean, and would urge you to do the same. That line about casting your pearls before swine was rather below the belt, don't you think?

Ooops swine flu,  LOL!

It appears you make many assumptions. You assume that being a non-christian amounts to being in a god-less state.

Might i ask you if Abraham was a Christian. Did he need the sacrifice on the cross to be saved? What about Elijah, who was taken up into heaven and did not die at all. Moses, Jacob, David, Isaiah, the prophets, etc? Christ had not died on the cross yet, and they were saved, yes?

What about the millions of people who have lived and died in centuries past without ever even hearing of Christ. You assume they are all damned.

I am so sad at that pattern of thought.

However i am increasingly getting used to such lines of reasoning from Christians. You really honestly believe that if there is a red-indian somewhere in history, who never heard of christ, but loved the creator and loved his fellow men, and was good and charitable all his life - you honestly believe he will go to hell

Worse still, you believe that if there is such a man alive today, and you sprint to him with the gospel, and on account of his culture and upbringing he cannot relate to it, he is going to hell?

Many surprises await "Christians" in the afterlife.

Brilliant, Adaku, just Brilliant!

This is an excellent desertatation - thorough in its scope and brilliant in analytic depth. Also not stubborn and humble.

We are now on the same page on Atheism.

But to digress a bit - i do think its is possible to prove the existence of God - if God is understood to be an element of Intelligent Design, however described. Definitely it is possible to prove Intelligent Design, just looking around the world and how specifically formed for purpose everything is should be enough to acknowledge that there is intelligent design. A mere glance at the palm of your own hand should show you intelligent design. What cannot be proven is the nature of that Intelligent Design - Is it a conscious supernatural being, or an element, or an astral equation of some sort. Whatever it is, it could be called God.

@ Tudor, what do you make of Aadaku's brilliant write-up, the chic is quite smart i told you,

Come to think of it i have always wanted to marry a smart, strong-willed lady, Adaku dont break my heart and tell me you are married already, !!!

@ Davidylan -

It appears you have misunderstood me. I did not say that i am a christian. To clarify, i am not a Christian.

I said i was born Christian. Translating from English to English, that simply means i was born into a Christian Anglican Family and grew up a Christian.

However i have keenly searched for the Truth all my life, and so have fully read the Bible, the Quoran, and many other works of faith seeking a round understanding.

Currently i do not share many of the doctrines preached in the Bible. This is why i ceased to be Christian many years ago.

Of course you will now launch into a prayer session for my soul, but quite frankly, if i go to hell, its my kettle of fish, is it not?

But somehow, as a non-partisan person (since i am neither christian nor muslim), i felt and still feel that the statement "Allah is Satan" - is a very misguided statement and shows a great limitation of mind on the part of persons who would say such. Its also certainly blasphemy.

What would you think of a Muslim who comes around and says - "Jehovah is Satan" just because the word "Jehovah" is a foreign word for "God" - and yes, Allah is both literally and contextually the arabic word for God. Do you even know the origin of the hebrew names "Yahweh", "Jehovah", etc?

You must be more broadminded as an individual, as a human being, and eschew fanatism. Because you are sounding like a Christian Fanatic.

I will report the posts, i mean it. If no apology to your muslim brothers by c.o.b. today.

@ Davidylan -

It might surprise you to know that i am not, and have never been muslim. I am born Anglican Christian.

I thank you for the portions of the bible you quoted to indicate the source of your belief. However you must note that i was not arguing about whether you are right in that belief or wrong.

My point was simply about simple virtues such as politeness and respect for one another. Especially in matters of faith.

You are wrong when you say that the thread started as an attack on chrsitianity, if you check you will see that it was simply an inquiry on a theological question only - the question as to whether Jesus is God. Every body is permitted his view on that, as you well know, there are even Chriatian Groups that do not believe that he is God, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and others.

That is quite different from stating that Allah is Satan. That is a highly misguided and ill-advised thing to say, especially at a public forum. The muslims did not call Jesus satan, did they? Of course they would not because the quoran details his life as one of the most exalted messengers of God, and you might be surprsied to learn that the quoran also confirms the immaculate conception of Jesus.

If you are more open-minded, you will learn so much more.

In a universe of trillions of galaxies and billions of souls in billions of far flung worlds, you really expect all souls to have the same religion? Come on!

The reason i insist i will report to the moderator is because statements like that are religiously provocative and are against the rules of this forum. Have you read the rules?

I will certainly report this matter if you guys do not apologize or clarify.

noetic2:
I never intended to convince anyone of anything. , How can I convince worshippers of satan (allah)?

only the holy spirit can o such. . . I can only pray for u.

I am absolutely astounded by this. How can any person be so comprehensively rude. Narrow minded also.

It's rude because regardless of your personal beliefs you should NEVER NEVER NEVER label another religion satanistic. Especially when that religion is one of the three monotheistic Abrahamic religions of the world.

Its Narrow minded because the word "Allah" is the arabic word for God, the creator of the universe. So if you say that Aallah is Satan, you are actually equating the Creator with Satan. There is no justification for this at all.

Locally there are names for God, such as Oluwa, Olodumare, Chukwu, etc. Wwould you say those names refer to Satan simply because they are in another language.

I am so tired of people who believe that all persons not subscribing to their religion are damned therefore. You fail to see the glorious diversity of humanity and fail to understand that we will of necessity all approach God through different channels guided by our peculiar culture, history, etc.

I am however pleased that the muslims on this forum have reacted politley to your astoundly shocking and provocative statement.

This is a moderated forum, and unless you apologise, i will be reporting your post to the moderator and having your account shut down.

Adaku, please dont disappear from the thread on account of Tudor. We are missing you.

Your comments will be appreciated.

@Tudor, yes she did use strong words, but its going a bit too far to say things like "rabid dog" to a lady, dont you think?

@Adaku, again, i apologise on his behalf.

@ Adaku123

@ Tudor

@ Noetic -

It appears the previous effort of the Judge (my humble self) to pour oil on troubled waters was not very successful.

First off: i really find this debate very engaging, and i would hate for either party to abandon the thread on account of rude language coming from another party. We really can engage each other without insults. In this regard i feel that both Adaku & Tudor have failed to hold on to my earlier charge to keep the debate clean. But Tudor's insults are somewhat worse, and in that regard, Adaku my lady, do accept my apologies on his behalf. You see, he is only a very determined debater who perforce needs to get his point across.

You really are wonderful people,  lets not take the spice out of this ok?

In fact i was thinking just now wouldn't it be nice to have an evening out with you all and we actually meet each other and reason face to face over steaming bowls of isi-ewu, pepper soup and cold beer!

Now i will make a second attempt to court the issues.

I see Adaku is not too pleased with the reference to Wikipedia. In that regard let me say that although i accept that Wikipedia is not necessaily the Oracle of Ijebu Ode, it certainly is a very factual and objective site quite useful for research. Nevertheless, we really do not need Wikipedia to resolve this.

The point i tried to make in my last post was simply that your respective understandings of the word "religion" - are both right BUT the particular context of this thread with reference to religion obviously deals with spiritual formalized religion.

That is the why the question of "regulating religion" was put up in the fisrt place. Of course you can only regulate something,  a person or a body of persons, that has taken form and actively propagates itself within corporate society. (In law, a "person" means either an individual, a company, or other registered organization). Churches, Mosques, etc are registered bodies as incorporated trustees, and accordingly they are able to open bank accounts, own land, enter into contracts, etc.

If you had a body called, for example "Association of Atheists of Uganda," and such body was duly registered, such a body would have the same rights, and then it would make sense to perhaps talk about regulating their activities in society.

However if there are no such bodies, then Atheism, like any other belief (including really religious beliefs which are unregistered, such as Voodoo, Juju, etc) is a living room discussion and not a registered forum that can be regulated.

Even if my reasoning above is wrong - the question still begs - this thread is about regulating religious bodies on account of misappropriation of MONEY. To the extent that Atheism is not a body that appropriates ANY money from ANY body or group, then of course, there is nothing to regulate.

But that deals with the puritanical aspects as per the intentions of the topic opener (who by the way must be really unhappy that we have disgressed so much).

To the more substantive level of your debate, i must once again say this: Adaku - you must surely admit that not every belief can be categorized as a religion. Please dont be stubborn on that. It is patently obvious. Tudor has tried to use extreme examples to drive home the point - such as when he asks if a belief in santa claus is a religion. But to use an even softer example, you will surely agree that agnosticism is not a religion - it is simply a view point that states that God cannot be understood or approached. Atheism is surely a viewpoint as well.

If i believe that Yaradua is incompetent - would you call that a religion, simply because it is a belief?

No, it is simply a viewpoint.

I think the critical element in religion is that worship of some sort is involved in it.

To the extent that Atheists do not believe in God, or any gods at all (much less worship them), surely that's not a religion.

Let's keep up the Good Spirited Talk.

@ Tudor - please be more polite to the lady in the house.

Signed -

On behalf of the the Nigerian Judiciary!

@ Alimat, Noetic -

The words of Jesus:

John 8:40: “, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”

John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does”

John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”

Guys from the foregoing there can be NO DOUBT, that Jesus NEVER, NOT EVEN FOR ONE SECOND, regarded himself as God.

The words of the Apostles:

1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3: “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 2:22 - “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

Acts 2:36: “God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Let’s face it: the Trinity was created by the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus Christ, and now people are ready to die to affirm the truth of it, disregarding Jesus’ own words.

So beware: calling him God – or “part of God” – is definitely blasphemy.

PS: I was born a Christian, but its quite obvious to me that the Bible does not teach that he is God.

@ Tudor;

Not a christian, please. Free thinker. I do believe in God of course, and worship HIM privately.

Yes, and i have said no conscientous person should object to a UK-style Charity Commission, the functions of which will simply be to monitor expenses of charities (including religious bodies such as churches) to avoid fraud.

@ Tudor,

@ Adaku123.

Permit me to attempt to act as a Judge in your very interesting debate. (I am a lawyer by the way!).

First off: Both of you are obviously quite intellectual and you both try to bring an academic/ research slant to what you say. For this reason, i would ask that you continue the discussion, but without the insults - because quite frankly, its easy to see that neither of you is daft. So please easy up on words like "retard", "dumb", etc.

There is actually a perfect mid-point in your arguments that shows you both are somewhat right.

The mid point is this:

In colloquial terms, the word religion may indeed be applied to anything that one is so obessed with, that virtually amounts to worship, or giving one's life to that thing or that idea. I certainly know my own personal love for sexy women amounts to a religion for me: i literally worship feminine sexuality. I also worship other things that may be said to be a religion for me; football, for example. So Adaku's statements are not entirely without merit.

However we are all aware that the particular sense in which the word religion is being used on this topic is as regards spirituality and formalized worship systems, and i believe the topic opener made this clear. For this reason i am compelled to agree with Tudor that in this context the word religion only refers to its theological meaning: namely - mankind's search for God, gods, deities & entities supernatural, etc, and the worship of such.

See the link from Wikipedia here attached.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

In this respect, to the extent that atheism does not seek such, it can never be considered a religion. At best it is a mere idea, a proposition, and it is ridiculous to talk about regulating a proposition or an idea. By the way, do note that an atheist (who believes that God does not exist) is quite different from an agnostic, who believes that the idea of God is so abstract, it can never be understood, and should not be attempted.

Have i been a good judge? Rate me guys.

Something in the mould of the UK Charity Commission which monitors expenditure oF Church Funds should be apt.

I suspect however that if mooted, most Nigerian Churches will kick against it.

The Orthodox Churches always publicize their Statements of Account, but the Pentecostal ones are yet to follow suit (for obvious reasons).

Any church that resists the idea of a Charity Commission to monitor their funds clearly has alot to hide and should be investigated.

Wishful thinking in Nigeria though.

Okemoni:
@Tudor I know you do not believe in christianity, but I advise that you do not talk abt God and his anoited in such a manner, pls. its for your own good.

I am so sick of this. "Touch not His Anointed" has now become the cheap excuse that some silly people use as a form of immunity for these Pastors.

One day, they will enter the Central Bank and steal our collective wealth, and some people will still fold their arms and say "Touch not His Anointed."

Plain daft.

Truth be told. Fellows be real,

Frankly i am not surprised at the majority choice of the "functional woman",  its so sad most of you view your wives as hoovers or washing machines.

In Livis Pasione. There is Passion in Life.

Life is also short.

Why, o why, would i not want a scandalously beautiful woman, tall, dark, elegant, with a wild unk of sexuality, and a love of high heels and waist chains,  anklets too,

It would make my head spin, my pulse race, and my blood feel alive,

The ridiculous assumption is being made that such a woman cannot also be intelligent or hardworking. Of course there are lots like that. All my ex girlfriends are like that.

If i need a cook, i'll hire one, if i need a house-tender, i'll pay your functional wife to come do the chores for me, while i reflect upstairs on what next i will be doing to please my Aphrodite, my Venus, my sexy dark queen,  yes, with those blood-red nails of hers and her, o dear, its getting to me now,

Postscript: Plain truth fellas, is alot of naija guys dont have the nerve to talk to, date or marry a stunning woman. That's crap.

1. I cannot understand the continuous business of recycling leaders in Nigeria. Obasanjo left power in 1979. In 1999 we could think of no one else to rule this country other than him? Yaradua is president today only because of the fact that he is younger brother to Obasanjo's dear late friend, Shehu Yaradua. Musa Yaradua is easily the emptiest and most clue-less president in the world today. Initially i regarded him as weak only, but have since seen that beneath his calm and amiable demeanor he is actually extremely wicked and corrupt (Ibori, Nuhu Ribadu, etc). Back to the question of recycling, i cant imagine what Mr. Rilwanu Lukman is still doing in government. He should be retired now, surely, tending tomatoes in his back garden, buying chocolates for grand-children or something of the sort.

What is most painful is the fact that unless we as a people unite at the ready for 2011, these shameless bastards will be rigged back into power in 2011. We all need to come out enmasse and vote for the opposition in such massive numbers nationwide that it would become difficult to rig the election. Thats what we need to do.