₦airaland Forum

nwamehn:
@ op, I think Johnydon22 meant that the foetus is a living being but not necessarily a human. If u happen to watch a video or documentary of what happens in the womb of a woman during abortion, then u will realise that the foetus itself has life and the abortion process involves brutally taking life off the living being. I know it's very hard to encourage the rape victim to keep the baby but I see it as a better alternative than taking a life, unless the victim's life is also at risk.

I do acknowledge that its a living being, i only said it wasnt yet a human until it has developed pain receptors. Before that time, terminating it cant be regarded as "brutal" because it wont feel anything whatsoever.

Although when it is fully developed, then we can all agree that its just plain murder but my argument is based on the fact that the foetus is not yet fully-developed to register pain.

johnydon22: I know this can be a difficult position to be in but i do think that we humans tend to develop an unbound love for offspring no matter how it comes about, Children are like money, always welcome even if it comes in a dirty sack.

Even though i do agree this example is delicate and there is compelling drive to get rid of the feotus, i also implore patience and perserverence, something beautiful may yet come out of the ugly situation after all.

A child is beautiful and deserves love..

Yes, we do agree on alot of things, i was originally of the opinion that you dont approve abortion no matter the situation. So let us narrow it down to the rape victim scenerio.

This is difficult and the choice ultimately falls back to the victim, but i would stand beside and support a victim who chooses to abort, why?

Well, let start with what you said about a foetus being a human, i disagree, i dont claim to be an expert on it but i do know that at some stage, a human foetus is no different from a fish foetus, at a stage it still has gills, tails and many features from our evolutionary past. Can it really be called a human?, i doubt it. Now you might ask, so at what point does it become a human?, i dont know and i am sure there is no universal answer,but if i was to bet, i would go for the time the brain has formed well enough to register pain.

Which brings me to my second point, personhood. Who is a person?, i dont think people are given right to live just because they are humans(hitler was a human, serial killers are humans), i think they are given right to live because they are persons(again, my opinion).
Whats the difference?, Well, a one month old baby is as much a human as a 32 year old, but not as much a person. The 32 year old has a complex array of emotions, knowledge, relationships, goals and beliefs that surpasses that of a one month old and would gladly give his or her life to save that baby from harm, thats personhood.

If we go further back into the development of a foetus, we realize that its not much of a person as the victim who was raped and as goals, and plans for the future. Like i said earlier, the sole choice would rest on the hypothetical victim, but if she decides not to keep it, she would be justified because first and formost, she is far more of a person than a 2week foetus and her future should be considered first.

Lastly, many fertilized eggs fails to get implanted on the womb wall!, Many women naturally abort more times than they know it, but noone notices, so why should a victim of rape not be allowed to choose how she wants her future to be shaped just because she has a foetus growing in her?!.

I cant say for certain if Abortion is moral or not, it would all depend on the situation but i am certain I stand for women being given the right over their own bodies.

When the issue of abortion arises, it becomes very sensitive and people lean towards different views, but i believe that an abortion could not only be carried out but must be carried out when it is absolutely necessary. Some women can have complications in child-bearing costing them their lives, some girls still in school are victims of rape and having that child would be a dream-destroyer.

Now you might say, every embryo has a potential of becoming a human-being, i agree, it has the potential but it is not yet a human(i.e embryo that are not yet fully developed). It doesnt know anything, it cannot feel pain or joy, but the mother can, so i feel the mother's safety and well-being should be put first and if that means terminating a not-yet formed human, then so be it.

cc Johnydon22

NB: I dont condone reckless abortion, only necessary ones.

I vote for

ichommy

cc NLJega

johnydon22:
I am open to it

Ok bro, i would create a thread for it, is that ok by you?

A person should be voted for not because of his religious views or lack thereof but his competence and vision for the country...

johnydon22:
I am an atheist and a humanist and i see everything wrong in Abortion

I would love us to have a discussion on this topic

kilo4sure:
But since he was able to start the universe, knowing him and his nature would help our science a lot, and would at least hurt no one, or don't you think so?

I agree, it would if it was proven that there was indeed a being behind the kick-starting of the universe, but the fact still remains that there hasnt been any tangible reason to believe that the cause of the big-bang was even conscious.

In my opinion, God as always been the answer for our ignorance:

2000years ago

Who created the sun?, i dont know so God did it
Where did humans come from?, i dont know so God did it
Why is the sky blue?, i dont know so God did it
Where did the universe come from?, i dont know so God did it

Present day
Who created the sun?, - Gravity was the main reason why stars and planets form
Where did humans come from?, Evolution
Why is the sky blue?, Nitrogen is the most abundant element in the atmosphere and its scatters blue light
Where did the universe come from?, The big bang
How did the big bang start?, i dont know so God did it

God only starts where our knowledge stops...

alobright17:
Clear your head and answer me this question..What if parents or relatives of gays feel hurts,So that will now make you to understand that been gay hurts someone or not?.

I know people whose parents and relatives feel hurt because they studied a course they wanted to and not what their parents wanted them to study, or people whose relatives where hurt because they got married to a different race or ethinicity. Does that really means that what they did was EVIL?

They're all Evil because first the law of the land condemned it which attracts 14 yrs jail term,My Believe also condemned it,

Yes, it is the law of the land, but that doesnt make the law right, many times in the past, we humans have passed laws only to find out decades or centuries later that those laws were immoral. so that doesnt help the argument.

Tell me the benefit of a gay man who will later marry a lady for child's sake?.

Many heterosexuals get into a relationship with the plan of not having children, nobody crucifies them for it. Moreover, a gay couple can always adopt if they want a child so badly.

Since you don't believe in God then I have nothing else to prove to you till I meet those Christians who believe in God and still disobeys him,they're the ones I need to ask if the God we all believe and proclaim is that dull to must have condemned Gay acts.

Brother I based my own argument on the fact that my God is against homosexuality but he is not against straight that's why he approved Man to woman marriage.Adam never had children with Adam his fellow man he had it with Eve the lady.Until gays start getting pregnant their acts is as useless as useless itself.NO ONE IS BORN TO BE GAY.

I respect that it is your religion and that's why you believe in it so badly, i understand that and i don't mean to argue with that, but you should realize that we live in a democratic nation and what does it mean to live in a democratic nation?, Freedom of Religion and also Freedom of Irreligion. So because an act is a taboo in your religion doesnt mean it is in another religion or it is a taboo to the irreligious.
So, you cant use your religion laws to tie people down who doesnt believe in your religion.

Its like arresting an hindu because he was eating pig, because it is a taboo in your christian religion, a democratic country doesnt work like that.

kilo4sure:
Way to twist my words, you said if the deist God exist there is no need to search for him. I gave you reasons why there may still be a need to search for him.

Alright, but if he wasnt responsible for anything that happened in the universe, if everything was just a cosmic accident and nothing was planned except the starting of the universe, what is the assurance he would care about what happens to us when we die?, he obviously doesnt interfere with the workings of the universe as it is!!!

kilo4sure:
Well maybe to overcome death, who knows? And to find meaning and hope from that ultimate being to conquer a universe so indifferent. #Just thinking #

If so, then the belief in this kind of being is not based on fact, rationality or reality rather its based on sentiment and emotions.
If we believe things just because they feel good or sound right, then we would believe the world is a paradise.
Is that rational?

kilo4sure:
This argument goes beyond religion, the question of God's existence is also a philosophical argument, but from what you are saying, you want God to perform magic to your face to convince you, if truly God exist. Let me ask, what would convince you of the Deist God?

Beautiful question!

The difference between a deist God and no God at all is absolutely nothing.

There is no point if he wasnt responsible for anything whatsoever except for starting the universe, so whats the point?

alobright17:
You keep hitting off track especially from the original argument.I still stand to say that Gays were not born to be gays unless you can prove to me that smokers are born to be smokers.

Live and let live should be extended to thieves and to all other evil doers.

1. Homosexuality cannot be compared with smoking, the best yardstick you can compare it with is Heterosexuality, so if gays are not born gays, then straights are also not born straights

2. I said "as long as they are not hurting anybody, live and let live"

3. How can you group homosexuals as thieves and evil doers?, what exactly is the crime of this people?, because what ever crime they are doing, you also are doing.

NB: the homophobia in this country is alarming

alobright17:
Evolutionary against God's directives,laws and commands?God approved man to woman marriages which he said go into the world and bear fruits something Man to man or woman to woman can't give you.

As a man,I derived my attraction to ladies because of that same command and directives from God which also stated wives to be submissive to their husband.Man to Man or woman to woman can never ever produce Husband and Wive.

I have proven to you where I derived my urge for ladies from,is now your turn to explain yours to me which I know you've no single justification for.

Lol, i am not a homosexual o, i am a humanist and i believe everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, including this people that are regarded as "demon possessed".

You see our fundamental differences, i dont believe that directive was from God. I cant go into details on how genes work because it would take a long time and you would just end up not accepting it anyways, so no need. I would only say that just because something is repulsive to you doesnt mean its a taboo.

In China, they eat frog, you hardly see a Nigerian eating frog and if you were to come across one who does, it would be strange and almost repulsive, you would be tempted to call him a demon or demon-possessed. If he gets to china, he would be as normal as it gets.

So you see, the "Normal" is dependant on the environment, speaking in a broader terms now, from an evolutionary point of view, heterosexuals have a greater chance of passing on their genes to the next generation, making them more suited for the environment and thus why we have more people being heterosexuals, but that doesnt mean that mutations in our DNA doesnt produce other types of sexual orientations. So as long as they are not hurting anybody, i suggest you live and let live.

alobright17:
With your submission here,you'll have to believe with the content that gays are not born gays,the same way smokers are not born smokers.So let no one deceive him or her self saying or believing that gays are created to be gays.According to you it is a strange occurrence featuring those who don't respect God the creator himself who condemned homosexuality in totality.

I was speaking from an evolutionary point of view, which i am certain you would disagree with, and its fine, but if you were born to love girls and obviously noone can change you to do otherwise, then why do you feel that these people just choose to change?.

shadeyinka:
Just as you at puberty. I was lucky though not to have been under negative influences (infections) that could have predisposed me to homosexuality.

Long time Friend. How are you today?

Infections,Lol,I feel you havent met alot of homosexuals and interacted with them. If you have, you would know that these people are just as normal as you and i, and are just by default wired to their sexual orientation.

Some people are abused, yes, but think about it, does being abused make you crave it or hate it?

Many women who were raped as a child by their uncles or fathers tend to hate having sex when they are older, why?, that experience traumatised them for life.
why do you claim the opposite is the case for people abused by homosexuals?

I am great!, how was your service today, assuming you went!

shadeyinka:
God did not create anyone Gay just as God did not create anyone kleptomaniac. God created us as babies....we grow up influenced by our environment to different tendencies.

Are there homosexual babies to justify your claim?

Hi bro, how you doin, as usual, you know i would disagree with you above...when did you choose to be an heterosexual?

alobright17:
Are you saying gays are limited to ladies that's why they opted to the readily available?

No, thats not what i was saying... I said what is considered normal is the random feature that best fits the environment, that doesn't mean strange features wont occur time and again.

kilo4sure:
So what would then be reasonable evidence to you? Do you mean evidence in terms of matheematical proof? In my view the arguement is all about reasonable belief given the evidence and not a form of scientific evidence which l believe you are asking for. But first tell me, what is reasonable evidence?

If we saw an amputee grow back their limbs
If we saw new species forming from the dust
If we saw virgins giving birth
If we saw people walking on water
If we saw snakes and donkeys talking

That would be a start...

geswith:
I live in the north and i have alot of sheep that i keep for domestic purposes.i have never found any form of gay tendencies in the male sheep.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...Researches has been made around the world and even though its rare, it does happen...

tomquest:
I'm not here to argue, just trying to make you think more deeply. I'll pray for the salvation of your soul. God bless you.

Amen, thanks

kilo4sure:
Lol, why should l get annoyed? The concept of God goes beyond religion and is a viable concept in philosophy, and only ignorant atheists still sprout that old worn out line of the likes of Betrand Russell who compare the God concept to a material entity, so l think you do not even understand the discussion in the first place.

What are you saying?, i ddnt even mention God in my question, why are you jumping the gun?...smh

To answer your question, putting trust in your skepticism (maybe not the best way to put it) means you think the other positions are dumb, and when you disbelieve something, you become so sure that your doubt is warranted and cannot be cured, you go ahead to shield your non belief from every possible answer. This is no longer free thinking or skepticism, an example is how atheists conjure up all sort of silly explanations to explain away the experiences of those who see things around them even when they are unconscious. I am not saying atheists must believe in the possibility that the brain does not totally control the mind, or that the natural is not all there is, but having the super intelligent air and confidence about your worldview in cases like this is not reasonable.Let's just all keep searching with an open mind.
I defend your right to believe that the material world you see is all there is, but it is also reasonable to believe that there is something beyond us which we continually seek.

Firstly, atheism is not a belief system, so perspective changes from atheist to atheist, so your first line of action should have been to ask my views on certain things instead of speaking generically.

Next, I asked you that question and used an example to illustrate my point, in the example, you ddnt say i ddnt have an invisible unicorn, you only said you wouldnt believe it until i brought sufficient evidence.
Now thats how i view my own scepticism, There hasnt been a single shred of undeniable evidence supporting any claims of the supernatural and the immaterial world, so why should i believe in such things?.
People claim God is immaterial and outside space and time, but how do those people know if they are also bound by space and time, and has never left space and time to see whats beyond?

So is it trusting in my disbelief to not agree until given reasonable evidence?

tomquest:
Who created the first man and woman?

Who created the vast and complicated universe?

Logic?

No problems!

What makes you think someone created them?

tomquest:
Someday you will get to know that someone created you. ALL religions talk about a Supreme Being, a Creator behind this universe.

If you are now too wise to aknowlege that a Supreme Being exists, I wish you goodluck in your afterlife.

So because all religions believes in some sort of deity means that a deity exists?...bad logic

The fact that every tribe of the human race since the time of the Neanderthal have some belief in a deity not because a deity exists, but because of our inbuilt need to believe that a deity who created it all exists, its our way of trying to make sense of the world around us...

hopefulLandlord:
You made a whole thread for this?

One fictional character believes another fictional character exists

Was about to say the exact same thing

Real miracles that cant be naturally explained like someone growing his limb back are just impossible and dont exist...others are possible but rare events, while some are just plain ignorance about how the world works...

DemonInSiege:
miracle do exists,

in my area p pastor prayed for an amputee(boy) who had an accident, he grew another hand

Is that so? Lol, you would have to do better that just what you said, you need to provide evidence for the miracle

kilo4sure:
When you keep comparing the concept of God( the ultimate) to unicorn, then you do not allow for any meaningful discussion.

First of all, i ddnt compare any concept, i asked a simple question, how do one trust in skepticism?!

Secondly, God (the ultimate) as you like to call him is only that to you, i would assume you are a christian, your God is as real as a unicorn to a muslim, hindu, buddhist, jew, taoist, and yes, an atheist. Not all religious people even believes your God is real, and would gladly compare him to a unicorn just the same way you would compare their gods to an imaginary object.
So, if you get annoyed that one doesnt believe your God exists, then you wont have any meaningful discussion with anybody on earth who isnt a christian...

kilo4sure:
It is not totally wrong to be a skeptic, to ask questions and try to find answers. Seun's posts on the bible from what l have seen are just skeptical. The problem is when you begin to trust your skepticism, you become right in your own eyes, you want to confirm your own beliefs doing everything possible to counter the other side, and seeing only what you want to see.
We the religious are sometimes guilty of this, and subconsciously atheists are also guilty of this. This is where the atheists crosses the line of skepticism into pure undiluted bias.

How exactly do someone trust in their skepticism?, i am curious...

Imagine this scenerio, we are friends, and i come tell you, i have an invisible pink unicorn in my house, but you cant see it, you obviously dont believe this because from what you know about the real world, unicorn doesnt exist now talkless of an invisible one. You then tell me that until i provide evidence for my invisible unicorn, you wont believe in it...

From the scenerio above, how exactly are you trusting in your skepticism?

Bamidelefundz:
Using 3D ( L, B, H), is time real or virtual? if the many worlds interpretation is proven correct, and if we can jump into the future does that mean that their is a possibility that you are not a part of that future anymore??

There is no part of the many-world interpretation that states that we can jump into the future...it only means that every possible outcome of an event did actually happen creating different branches of universes.

As to whether time is real or virtual, it is definitely real, it is infact a dimension of the universe, the 4th dimension.
It can be stretched or squeezed, depending on how you move through space.

Finally, the past and the future doesnt really exist, what we do have is an eternity of the present.

NB: this topic would have made more sense in the science section

Very simple...

The supernatural doesnt exist or atleast havent been proven to exist...

Shikena...

HardMirror:
What do you what me to say?
Children would believe anything they are told. Not really my business, but as adults we have to re-examine what we learned while growing.

Children born in Atheist homes should also find time to sturdy the various religions and see what good they can get from it.

Building an ark does not prove the bible right. Does not prove all animals over 20million individuals lived in the ark for over 4 months,


does not prove a man and his children built such a large vessel.

Does not prove water covered all the mountains including 5,000 meter tall ararat the ark landed on.

@bolded, thats the real reason why this is dangerous...At a tend age, they are already been told falsehoods about the world and their place in it. If you tell a child who visits this kind of musuem that the real age of the earth is 4.6billion years, how do you think he or she would react?

This is so bad on a number of scales, and i dont mean bad for the adults(they are free to believe whatever they want to), but for the young minds who are just coming to grasp about the world and they should have a real and accurate description of it not so myths that is obviously not true.