₦airaland Forum

Image123: You're welcome Mark, have a good night rest.
My oga moderator, our agreement is 12hours in between posts oh. 12hours. i'm not sure we're rushing anywhere or have a deadline to close thread. Please, let's be more patient.

I have seen that whoever offers the response to response is usually the person to do the next presentation for the next point to discuss. Since this points have been enumerated already, my assumption was that we have them already written. I am not sure if the 12 hours agreement applied to in btw response to response and presentation. But if that is how we want it, no problem.

We are not in a rush, really. I agree.

[size=16pt]Attention Participants!!![/size]

Realizing how much these discuss is going to take of our time and energy, I would first like to thank all of you for the effort you are bringing in to making this project a success. I will also want to give us the liberty of a break. If a participants shall find himself engaged over some other works and realizes that he would not be able to give himself to this discuss as much as he wants to, I am giving us the liberty of proposing a break of a week at most. I would not want us to abuse this opportunity because the advantage of having two individuals in each party is so that the other can carry on when the former is not available. But if it turns out that a party cannot carry on the discuss because of the unavailability of one of the parties, then we could propose a break. This option is coming to make room for the “Long Walk to Freedom” that this tithe discussion shall entail.

Thank you.

[size=16pt]Attention Audience!!![/size]

We would like to thank and appreciate you all for your patience with us on this thread and for not posting indiscriminately; abiding by our rules. Following the tithe discuss, we will be allowing both tithers and those who do not tithe to present their views also; knowing fully well that there are some of us who are veteran tithe supporters and some who are anti-tithers. A full day of 24 hours shall first be given to only tithers to air their position on tithing. Posters in this section will still be asked to observe the rules for posting on this thread which our participants have abided by: no insults; no jibes; etc. Then a full day shall be given to those who do not tithe to air their views next. In this section, we would prefer that posters do not refute each other posts but rather concentrate on stating a summary of their views on tithing and why they think people should tithe or not tithe. No limit shall be given to this post; except that it should not be more than one post and it should finish with “end”. Then the moderators themselves shall state their own position on tithing.

After this, the flood gate shall be opened to “outsiders”. We trust that the nairaland management shall be kind enough to put the thread on front page after the whole conclusion of the matter “in-house”. Then everyone will be free to post, without limitation, without the rules.

Until that time audience are still advised not to post while the discussion is going on or your post will be hidden.

I encourage Image123 and Rhymeyjohn to Present R2. We are already behind schedule for that.

Image and co, you have up till 10am to Present R2 and Mark and co are to respond to that before 6pm (since they have posted at 6am), today.

Zikkyy: Majority of the peeps don't need understanding, they need deliverance. Or maybe we wait for the Nigerian economy to improve. Dat na one reason some peeps are tithing recklessly.

The best kind of deliverance is understanding my brother.

Rhymeyjohn: thought only six people were to comment on this thread! whats happening?

My apolgies Rhymey, my co-moderator will handle the comment in due time.

Zikkyy: what's the reward? e.g. 1st prize - 2014 Range Rover sports, 2nd prize - all expense paid vacation to hawaii, 3rd prizec - all expense paid pilgrimage to Jerusalem 4th prize all expense paid pilgrimage to cannan land, Ota. 5th prize - time out with pastor adeboye. Things like these would be enough incentive for debate. Even tithers go participate very well.

The prize shall be seeing people gain understanding

shdemidemi: Anti-tithers don chase all the tithers away from here o (with facts). Candour and Mark will do well with some expo on this thread.

I think so too.

But the minute it climbs this place, it is no longer expo na

And Image's friend's can help them out too. I have been seeing Bidam peeping into the thread.

@All

We are under utilizing this thread.

Even though the debate has started on the other thread, I expect that a parallel debate will be going on here. Now the rule says the participants cannot comment on other tithe threads; but it didn't say you and I that are not participating directly cannot!

So please, I want you guys to take up the points being discussed there and discuss/debate them here too, and thus give some life to the whole discuss. I am sure you all understand our not wanting you to comment on that other thread; so, please, don't bad belle us, OK? Oya, let have some life debate go on.

So far two points have been debated:

1. R1: Our tithing is borne out of the fact that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16) by Image123 and Rhymey; what are your takes on their delivery; what are your inputs; what should they have said; what should they have left out?

2. M1 - Abram's tithe was not his own property (Gen. 14:14-16,18-20,22-24) by Miwerds and Candour; ongoing though.

So let us have your inputs. I am sure I have not broken the rule, abi?

God bless.

Thank you Candour.

Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have up till 1am tomorrow to present Response to Response M1. Please when you have done that, I request that you post Presenting R2 immediately.

You could however present much earlier, like you did this morning, to save time.

Thank you Gentlemen.

OK.

New rule discarded.

[size=16pt]THE LEVITES TODAY[/size]

In Jewish tradition, a Levite (/ˈliːvaɪt/, Hebrew: לֵוִי, Modern Levi Tiberian Lēwî ; "Attached" is a member of the Hebrew tribe of Levi. When Joshua led the Israelites into the land of Canaan, the Levites were the only Israelite tribe that received cities but were not allowed to be landowners "because the Lord the God of Israel Himself is their inheritance" (Deuteronomy 18:2).[1][2] The Tribe of Levi served particular religious duties for the Israelites and had political responsibilities as well. In return, the landed tribes were expected to give tithe to the Levites, particularly the tithe known as the Maaser Rishon, or Levite Tithe. Historically they were the priestly classes in Judaism who had exclusive rights to learn and teach Torah to others. In current Jewish practice, dating from the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, the communal privileges and responsibilities of Levites are mainly limited to the synagogue Torah reading and the ritual of pidyon haben

Today, Levites in Orthodox Judaism continue to have additional rights and obligations compared to lay people, although these responsibilities have diminished with the destruction of the Temple. For instance, Kohanim (the priestly order) are eligible to be called to the Torah first, followed by the Levites. Levites also provide assistance to the Kohanim, particularly washing their hands, before the Kohanim recite the Priestly Blessing. They also do not participate in the Pidyon haben (redemption of the firstborn) ceremony, because they are traditionally pledged to Divine service. Conservative Judaism recognizes Levites as having special status, but not all Conservative congregations call Kohanim and Levites to the first and second reading of the Torah, and many no longer perform rituals such as the Priestly Blessing and Pidyon Haben in which Kohanim and Levites have a special role. Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism do not observe the distinctions between Kohanim, Levites, and other Jews.

Orthodox Judaism believes in the eventual rebuilding of a Temple in Jerusalem and a resumption of the Levitical role. There is a small number of schools, primarily in Israel, to train priests and Levites in their respective roles. Conservative Judaism believes in a restoration of the Temple as a house of worship and in some special role for Levites, although not the ancient sacrificial system as previously practiced.

Lineage

Having a last name of Levi or a related term does not necessarily mean a person is a Levite, and many Levites do not have such last names. Levitical status is passed down in families from parent to child, as part of a family's genealogical tradition. Tribal status is determined by patrilineal descent, so a child whose biological father is a Levite (in cases of adoption or artificial insemination, status is determined by the genetic father), is also considered a Levite. Jewish status is determined by matrilineal descent, thus conferring levitical status onto children requires both biological parents to be Jews and the biological father to be a Levite.

Currently the only branches of Judaism which regard Jewish status as being conferable by both parents have also abolished tribal statuses and distinctions, due to a view in both cases that egalitarian principles override halakha (traditional Jewish law). Accordingly, there is currently no branch of Judaism that regards levitical status as conferable by matrilineal descent. It is either conferable patrilineally, in the traditional manner, or it does not exist and is not conferred at all.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite

I learnt from this same text that David Cameron, is from a levithical descent.

I want to point Image/Rhymey to a tenor of their presentation. Rule 1 says:

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

It is the bolded I noticed was infringed on in statements like this, quoting from Rebutting M1:

For some who might be new to these kind of discuss, you may not readily understand why i have to explain the obvious as it were. Some of our folks argue over nothing, that is why. i mean, i've heard something as pesky as Abram gave tithes not Abraham. As in ehn, is it not the same person? It's the same way folks come to say that tithe has to be according to Leviticus or it is not tithe.

It's all in the chapter, interesting chapter BTW for those who care to read. During this defeat...

This is just an example of the tone of this rebuttal which stands against the rule of this discuss that encourages that we do not seek to make the opponent look bad: the aim is not to attack the person directly or indirectly, but to respond to the message (and not attack the message); also we encourage respect for the opponent.

I need to make this clear because I have rebuked Miwerds before on page 0 and I see the need to put Image and Rhymey to order too here. Lest in the process of responding to this rebuttal, Mark/Candour respond in the same spirit.

Please the statement above is uncouth and not suitable for this discuss. Your points were well delivered but some of it lacked the necessary Christian spirit. I encourage that you be more circumspect next time. Take your time to read through your text and do not be in a hurry to post.

At the end of this discuss, may it be that other discussions on nairaland religion section will come here to imitate the way we did it.

Thank you, again, Gentle men.

[size=16pt]Attention Participants!!![/size]

A Proposal for a New Rule:

I want to propose a new rule in this discuss. So far we have the following as guidelines for our presentation:

1. Presenting... by the originator of a point

2. Rebutting ... of this point by the opponent

3. Response to Rebutall... by the originator

4. Response to Response ...by the opponent

I propose that we have a fifth submission that will be made by the originator of the point called: Final Response...

This is the reason for the proposal. When Image123 and Rhymey presented R1, it was followed by a Rebuttal by Candour; then there was a response to the rebuttal by Image and co, and then a response to response by their opponent. I then announced that the discuss on R1 was ended; but I felt I was not giving the originator of the point enough laxity to defend himself, following two responses or rebuttals by the opponent versus the originator's one response.

The aim of the presentation by the originator of a point is to make his point clear enough to the readers. If the opponent is allowed to respond to him twice and he has only once to defend himself, with the opponent having the last say, it is quite obvious who will carry the day as far that point is concerned - the opponent.

So I request that we allow the presenting of a point remain out of the rebuttal/response sequence. And let the Opponent and originator of a point have two equal chances of offering responses at a presentation, with the originator having the last say.

If this rule is accepted by the two parties, this will be our new sequence of presentation and it will start with R2. Using R2 as an example, we now have thus sequence of presentation:

1. Presenting R2 by Image and Rhymey

2. Rebutting R2 of this point by Miwerd and Candour

3. Response to Rebutall R2 by Image and Rhymey

4. Response to Response R2 by Miwerds and Candour

5. Final Response R2 by Image and Rhymey

Participants, please let me know your take on this, while we await Response to Rebuttal M1 from Miwerds/Candour.

[size=16pt]Our Audience[/size]

I want to use this opportunity to remind our audience that this thread is not open to comments from everybody. Only six people are permitted to comment here for now: the four participants in the discuss and the two moderators.

Every other comment is to made at the former thread; the one that birth this one. We have however given some stringent condition for which comments can be made by viewers on the third post of page 0. Our audience e are therefore requested to be abreast with those instructions to them.

Thank you.

Thank you Image123 for your prompt rebuttal.

I request that Miwerds and Candour supply Response to Rebuttal M1 by 2pm today.

Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have up till 11am to present Rebutting M1.

I hope you guys have been able to establish some contact. Image123 is this arrangement OK or you want to review it?

Thank you Candour for that post.

That brings an end to the discussions on R1.

We await your post of M1; which hopefully should be any time from this moment.

Thank you Miwerds for your Response to Rhymeyjohn's post.

I will allow the response to Image's post too. And that will be all for R1.

After this one I trust that there will be no more double posting and thus no need for a double response.

Please, Image and Rhymey should note that they can no longer respond to the issues raised by Candour and Miwerds in the R1 posts. Posting on R1 ends with Candour's coming post. I remind the participants that the steps for response on each points are:

1. Presenting... by the originator of a point

2. Rebutting ... of this point by the opponent

3. Response to Rebutall... by the originator

4. Response to Response ...by the opponent

If Image and Rhyme have anything to respond to the above posts by Miwerds and the coming post by Candour, they will have to wait and probably present it with latter points as the discussion progresses.

No limit has been given to how much text a post shall be; so participants are encouraged to argue their points in an exhaustive manner, because they may not have the opportunity to do it when their opportunity has gone.

Thank you Gentle men.

@Candour. The above arrangement is fine with me. I also will wish to call Rhymey to order as it sèem he is drawing Image back. If he cañnot kèep up with the discuss I will request he lets us know, so Image may find someone else to work with. We await Miwerds/Candour posts.

Image123: i had to send in that Response to Rebuttal R1. because i am yet to discuss with Rhymejohn on ANYTHING. i emailed him twice, but i am yet to get his rsponse. Now, you are free to do as you please with the Response, as the moderator, but i thought it needful to send it in. i believe the aim of having two of us is to partner with one another. i do not require someone to help me send a post, i can do with a partner with whom we discuss and conclude before postings. Please do not mistake honour for levity. i'm honouring him because he indicated sincere interest, and i am ready and willing to work WITH him. Now for instance, he's brought up R6 to R10 which we did not discuss or conclude. i hoped to discuss R1 to R5 with him and i emailed them to him before posting it here. It was because we did not hear from him that i went ahead to paste it since the discuss was to start for 7pm yesterday. To me R6 is not a reason to tithe but a basic definition of tithe. R7 to R10 is about the same thing in different words. We've not both discussed that, how am i then expected to participate in that? Like someone suggested, maybe it is better we are given more time.
Do the needful as it were, it is still your decision not mine.

It's OK Image; I think I understand your difficulty here. I was almost certain that both of you had had things cleared up before the discussion started but apparently that is not the case.

My decision still stands because I am aware that Mark and Candour are working on responding to the Rhymey's post and not yours. What we can do, however, is that we will still permit this Response to Rebuttal R1 by you on the thread and we shall give Mark and Candour the liberty to respond to it or not. They may as well respond to both of you in their post.

I will just request that from now on, both of you should agree on posts before coming out.

Thanks.

@Image123 and Rhymeyjohn

I will kindly request that you should tell us which of the Response to Rebuttal R1 Miwerds/Candour are to respond to?

Both of you have presented two; is there a disconnect between you two? You are to present as one man.

I would ask Miwerds and Candour to respond to the earlier Response to Rebuttal by Rhymeyjohn and ignore the latter one by Image123. Already Mark and his ally are working on responding to Rhymeyjohn's post.

@Miwerds/Candour

I want to request that when you post Response to Response R1 you should follow it up with your next post Presenting M1. This is to save time so this discuss is not unnecasarily long. You may have an hour in between these postings.

@Image and Rhymey

When M1 is presented, you shall have at most 12 hours after that to present Rebutting M1.

Thank you Gentlemen.

@ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship in the introductory posts. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

Rhymeyjohn:

MY SUBMISSIONS
R6. Tithe means a tenth. Heb7:1, Gen28:22
R7. Abraham laid the precept of tithing and taught (from inference) his children about it, pre-law
R8. Christians today are children of Abraham and should do the works of Abraham John8:39,Rom4:11,13, Gal3:4
R9. Abraham and Jacob gave/offered God their tithe. Christians should give God their tithe (not pastor, reverend e.t.c). Gen34:7,14:19, Mal3:10
R10. Abraham and Jacob gave tithe of THEIR ALL . A Christian should give tithe of his all. Gen28:22, Heb7:1, Mal3:10.

I accept the above as R6,..., R10, for Image123 and Rhymeyjohn. I request that Miwerds and Candour should take note of them.

@ Mark Miwerds and Candour

The last post was made by Rhymeyjohn at about 11am. I am given you up till 11pm tonight to offer a Response to the Response R1.

Thank you.

Goshen360: @ moderators,

Are comments allowed now or you let us know when it's open for comments from participants?

I will encourage that all comments that need be made on what is going on here between the participants should be made on the former thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1540233/inviting-tithers-theological-discuss-miwerds/15. I am sorry Goshen you still cannot comment here until all 20 points have been trashed out.

I understand that some of us are itching to point out somethings, we can still do that on the former thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

@Candour. Pls indicate if you have ended the reuttal.

If you have ended your discuss sir, then Image123 and Rhymeyjohn have up till 3pm, Nigerian time, today, to offer a Response to the Rebuttal R1.

I have to state this time limits, so that the discuss enjoys time limitations and viewers do not have to wait forever to see a response.

Thanks to all.

^

I accept this as the genuine Presentation for R1. This is what Miwerds and Candour should respond to in their rebuttals and not the earlier post by Rhymeyjohn.

Miwerds and co, you have up to 10 am tomorrow morning, Nigerian time, to answer to this post, in a post titled Rebutting R1.

Miwerds/Candour, can you give us an idea of when you will make your presentation? It is late and some of us may want to catch some sleep.

Thank you.

@Rhymejohn

What you have presented has no title. Is it part of Image's points or are they your own points?

Both of you were supposed to harmonize your points and present them as one man.

I would advice that you edit your last post and make them a continuation of the points of Image's points: list them as R6, R7,..., R10; if you have up till five points like Image.

Then allow Image to discuss his points first before you do yours.

Please do you understand me?

Refer to a portion of the rules as quoted below

4. Both sides in one post shall be presenting 10 points each on thier position on tithing. Each point shall be named after the lead discussants on each side. Thus for Rhymeyjohn, his points shall be listed: R1, R2, R3,...., R10. Miwerds, his points will be M1, M2, M3,...., M10. Here is an example for the post by Rhymey

Example:

R1: Tithe is an Eternal Principle (Heb 20:20; Mark 24:2; ....)

R2: Tithe is compulsory (John 25:1; Ezekiel 60:70;....)

Then Miwerds shall make his own presentation in one post M1,...; along with their scriptural positions.

This is neccesary so that we do not repeat points already discussed. Also, if in the procees of discussing point R2, point R7 had been trashed out, by the time you get to point R7, the two groups could agree to skip it.

When a group makes a presentation and the four steps of response is exhausted, the other group will make their own presentation. So for this discuss, I suggest that Ryhmejohn presents his R1 first; to be followed by Miwerds M1; and the discuss will continue in that manner.

5. Presentation will be in this format

a. Presenting a point, say R1 by Ryhmey, titled Presenting R1. When you are done with your presentation, you should state "end"

b. A rebuttal of R1 by Miwerd/Candour titled Rebutting R1.

c. Then a Response to Rebuttal by Rhymey, titled Response to Rebuttal R1.

d. Then a response to response by Miwerds/Candour titled Response to Response R1.

This way each post on the discuss has a name and can be refered to easily later if there is a need to do so. Also, after a point has been trashed out in this four steps outlined above, it should not be revisited again. Not that the point cannot be mentioned in a latter discuss, but that this particular discuss will be considered finished at this point and there will be no need to refer to it again. This is to discourage un-ending hammering of a point. Therefore participants are expected to do a thorough work in the two opportunities they have to present on a point.

Thank you Image123.

Note that you are to Present R1 tonight.

Can you do so or will allow Miwerds/Candour to present M1, just in case you and your partner are not ready?

Image123: wow. Sorry i'm late hahahaha. my oga never mail me oh. Anyway let's go there literally in some time.
Amen

Image123 where is your compatriot?

You are already two and a half hours behind schedule. You were supposed to post about 7pm.

I have requested that Miwerds wait till 10pm. If you do not post your R1 before that time, he will be posting his M1 and would have the opportunity to start off the discuss. I was hoping you could have that advantage of starting.

If you see this before 10pm, you can visit that thread and tell the house when you want to post according to the rules or Miwerds post his.

Okay?

We are waiting.